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  1. #1
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    AM Classic Race problem or schwalbe problem? RESOLVED BY LBS!

    Hello Guys,

    Just got a pair of AC Classic 26" race wheelsets last week and they are awesomely light.

    I was currently using AC Standard wheel set mtb 26 which were light at that time at about 1500 grams for both.

    The race is about 1350 or so

    When i got the race wheel set i was excited and mounted my old tires from the AC Classic mtb 26 which i had mounted tubeless for about 8 months or so without issues.

    I mount the front tire and it sealed perfectly using my hand pump and rocket rons Tubeless ready tires

    I then proceeded to mount the rear tire and it also mounted quickly but overnight it deflated. I did the shake and rotate a lot of times with a 360 degree bounce to distribute the stans when i mounted it the night before.

    The front tire was fine but the rear tire was completely deflated. So i inflate and about 35 psi it blew spectacularly. Spraying me with stans and the room im in including the ceiling. The tire gave on the opposite side of the valve and sprayed stans all over the place. I use a floor pump and not a compressor

    I tried to remount it and it refused to do so so i check the tire. The bead seems to be destroyed as seen in these pics




    So i thought these were old tires which did not give me problems when they were mounted on the 2011 AC Classic mtb rims.

    I then got my racing ralph tires and mounted it too on the same rim. The next day it lost some air but did not deflate completely. I thought thats that so i inflated it again at 30 psi and went to do some riding.

    I hit some road and trails that totaled 48 kms or so. So far so good. I got home and washed the bike up as a routine. I noticed that the rear wheel was a little wobbly so i took them off and brought them to the dealer the next day where i bought them a few days ago. The front was perfect

    Im not heavy weighing in at 165 with gear and do not do jumps.

    The mechanic adjusted the spokes and trued the rear rim acknowleged that it was not true. So i went home and put it back to the bike.

    The next day it again deflated overnight this time completely. So i used my pump and began pumping it up. it never reached 35 psi and it again blew spraying me and my room with stans!

    I noticed that again it blew opposite side of the valve.

    I was pissed and washed the tires and rim out with water and called it a day and rested, knowing that there was something wrong. The next day i tried to mount the tire again to no success. The bead was again destroyed. This was becoming expensive.


    below is the pic of my racing ralphs as you can see same bead damage. It also gave way opposite side of the valve on the same wheel set the rear wheel. The front wheel set did not loose air and is still fine and true.



    I inspected the rim and this is what i saw opposite side of the valve. It seems to be a defect since there was no damage on the outside of the rim. Even the mechanic where i bought it inspected it and did not see any damage when he trued it.




    So i brought the wheelset in question today at the dealer and showed both damaged tires and what i saw on the rims. I also emailed the philippine distributor with the pics and AC Classic international. The dealer said they will claim the warranty and in the meantime i can use the wheel set but suggested i get a tube to use on it. Which really sucks and defeats the purpose of buying a tubeless wheelset.

    Anyway what do you guys think? Tire defects or rim defect? I got an email from the philippine distributor saying it may also be caused by the tire. I disagree since these tires were mounted tubeless on AC classic mtb without problems.

    I regret getting rid of the old mtb 26 AC classics just yesterday since i wont have a tubeless setup during this weekend.

    Thank you and pardon the long post and rant
    Last edited by jasonub; 03-01-2013 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hopefully AC Classic act quickly on this concern since im a loyal user of their wheel set
    and have influenced a lot of buddies in buying them.

    I have not told my riding buddies yet but will do so this weekend.

    Ill update this post as soon as i hear from AC classic

  3. #3
    thecentralscrutinizer
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    I wouldn't think the tire is to blame, but the bead, even with the bend that you show, should re-set once it's on the rim. Have you tried going over the bead with a Scotchbrite pad to remove the old sealant? Just a thought.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mopartodd View Post
    I wouldn't think the tire is to blame, but the bead, even with the bend that you show, should re-set once it's on the rim. Have you tried going over the bead with a Scotchbrite pad to remove the old sealant? Just a thought.

    Exactly,

    I mounted a clean tire there without any traces of dried sealant. The pics just show the dried sealant the day after i too pics.

    The sealant already dried up.

    Further the tires were toast after the explosion.

    Also AC classic got back to me blaming the tire and not their rims

    here is my response

    If AC classic is blaming the tires then What tire do you recommend that i put tubeless?

    Can they explain why the front wheelset had no issues when i mounted a schwalbe tire, but i have to bust 2 of them on the rear wheelset?

    Further, can they explain why when i was using the old AC mtb 26 for about 2 years i had no issues whatsoever using schwalbe tires exclusively?

    I also indicated that i just transferred the old tires from the old AC wheelset which works 100 percent till i transferred it to the race model REAR wheelset. Why does it work on the old mtb 26 and not on the new ones and why only on the rear?

    Please have him explain this picture is this normal? This is not present on the front wheelset
    Lastly can he also explain why the REAR wheelset is not true? and a weld mark looks "open" as seen in the picture?

    I have opened a thread at 2 of our local MTB forums and MBTR which is an american mountain biking forum about this concern and there are a lot of concerned users out there waiting for their reply.



  5. #5
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    should i ask for a full refund?

  6. #6
    Dropshot Champ!
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    try popping on a few other tires first.

    That tiny little dent, if you can even call it that, shouldn't cause what is happening.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonub View Post
    Also AC classic got back to me blaming the tire and not their rims

    here is my response

    If AC classic is blaming the tires then What tire do you recommend that i put tubeless?

    Can they explain why the front wheelset had no issues when i mounted a schwalbe tire, but i have to bust 2 of them on the rear wheelset?

    Further, can they explain why when i was using the old AC mtb 26 for about 2 years i had no issues whatsoever using schwalbe tires exclusively?

    I also indicated that i just transferred the old tires from the old AC wheelset which works 100 percent till i transferred it to the race model REAR wheelset. Why does it work on the old mtb 26 and not on the new ones and why only on the rear?

    Please have him explain this picture is this normal? This is not present on the front wheelset
    Lastly can he also explain why the REAR wheelset is not true? and a weld mark looks "open" as seen in the picture?

    I have opened a thread at 2 of our local MTB forums and MBTR which is an american mountain biking forum about this concern and there are a lot of concerned users out there waiting for their reply.
    I'm inclined to agree with American Classic. Here's why:

    The bead seat diameter on the new AC Race rims is very large; it's oversized like the newer Stan's 'EX' rims. (I own an AC Race 29 wheelset.). This creates a very tight fit between the rim and the bead, which is good for tubeless applications. UST-spec beads, however, are slightly smaller in diameter than normal 'non-UST' beads. So when you mounted the Schwalbe tire onto the rim, this put additional stress on the beads.

    Furthermore Schwalbe tires are notorious for having weak beads. When they first released their tubeless ready tires, many people were experiencing blow-offs on Stan's rims. (There is a thread here on MTBR about it.) The beads simply didn't have much aramid fiber in them. So Schwalbe increased the strength of their beads, but even still they aren't overly strong. It could be that your tire that blew off was an earlier version of their TLR tires (I'm willing to bet that Schwalbe will replace it for you).

    Your rim in the photos doesn't look bad to me. It's simply the rim joint. In the future I would not use any tire that has a UST-spec bead on the AC Race wheelset. (I am a tire engineer, and I personally will not.) Look for regular clincher tires. On the plus side, they're generally cheaper and lighter.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  8. #8
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    Thank you for your responses.

    Regular clincher tires? What are these? I like the rocket rons is there an equivalent that i can use and try?

  9. #9
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    I have asked schwalbe tire people on 3 seperate occasions if their TLR tires are a UST spec bead and they say no.I just talked to them 2 days ago and asked them if their TLR tires were a good fit for American Classic tubeless race wheels and they said yes because that is what I am using and I sure dont want a tire blowing off a wheel on the trail.

  10. #10
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    I personally would not be psyched with the uneven weld at the rim. That's something I'd expect to see on a really cheap set of rims. Are they implying that you caused the misalignment?

  11. #11
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    dirtdan,

    Actually, the local dealer is supportive of my cause. He too is surprised and seem to agree that there is a problem with the rear wheelset.

    The misalignment was obvious and the mechanic there declared that it was sloppy. He trued it but when i got home and spinned it on my bike it still had a slight wobble.

    I returned and he did a good job after that. He also installed a tube telling me while waiting for the claim to come, i should use it with a tube.

    These sell about $900 bucks at amazon.com but i bought it locally in my country.

    JIMSLICK,

    Same here, it will be disastrous if it blows up going down a trail. I have been using schawlbe tires for 2 years on an AC mtb wheelset and never had a problem.

    This is the first time i experienced this when i bought these "race model" thinking i wanted an upgrade on my 2 year old wheelset.

    Unfortunately, i seem to have gotten a lemon

  12. #12
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    please keep us updated. I have been thinking of getting a set of these wheels and I actually already have a brand new set of Rocket Rons to mount on whichever wheels I end up with.

    The only thing keeping me from ordering these wheels is reports of the "pinging" noise from the spokes and this thread about the Rocket Ron problem.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonub View Post
    Thank you for your responses.

    Regular clincher tires? What are these? I like the rocket rons is there an equivalent that i can use and try?
    By "regular clincher tires" I mean tires that are not UST or Tubeless Ready (with UST-spec beads). The Maxxis Ignitor would be similar.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMSLICK View Post
    I have asked schwalbe tire people on 3 seperate occasions if their TLR tires are a UST spec bead and they say no.I just talked to them 2 days ago and asked them if their TLR tires were a good fit for American Classic tubeless race wheels and they said yes because that is what I am using and I sure dont want a tire blowing off a wheel on the trail.
    This runs counter to my understanding. But whether or not Schwalbe tubeless ready tires have a UST-spec bead, it is a fact that they have a smaller inside diameter than regular clinchers' beads. It is also a fact that their tubeless ready beads initially had poor strength, leading to blow-offs.

    Taken from the Schwalbe N.A. website:
    What does Tubeless Ready mean?

    Tubeless Ready tires are not Tubeless tires. However, they can be converted to a Tubeless tire by adding a sealing fluid. Schwalbe Tubeless Ready tires have a specially formed and coated tire bead. This seals the rim very efficiently and provides safe seating.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

  15. #15
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    bholwell,

    Thank you for your inputs, much appreciated. Do you happen to know the weight of the Ignitor? It will be used exclusively for a rear tire thus it should have low rolling resistance like the racing ralph or ron and lightweight around 400 grams or so.

    CarlS,

    Ill update this thread as i get new information.

    The new news is that the local dealer would like to bring my wheelset to AC classic so that they will see that there seems to be a real defect.

    The bad news is i wont have a wheel set for the time being. I might as well build another set but im not going to buy another pair of AC classic till they make it right.

    Come on, brand new $900 retail wheelset thats wiggles and has a defective weld and they say its the tire's fault?

  16. #16
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    Update: I brought my rear wheelset to the dealer where i bought it this monday February 25 2013

    I hope something positive comes out of this experience. I wont have a wheelset this weekend though

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMSLICK View Post
    I have asked schwalbe tire people on 3 seperate occasions if their TLR tires are a UST spec bead and they say no.I just talked to them 2 days ago and asked them if their TLR tires were a good fit for American Classic tubeless race wheels and they said yes because that is what I am using and I sure dont want a tire blowing off a wheel on the trail.
    I've got an e-mail from them saying the opposite, as well as about 3 conversations with Schwalbe reps at Interbike saying the same thing. They need to get all their people on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwalbe Rep
    Our ust-ready tires have a ETRTO (UST) bead. The ust-ready tires are designed to be used with sealant.
    Last edited by meltingfeather; 02-27-2013 at 08:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Time to stop believing the hype and start doing some science.
    29er Tire Weight Database

  18. #18
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    This is what I sent Schwalbe originally and below is their reply.

    tubeless
    Message text:
    so this tubeless thing has me confused.in a 29 inch version you only offer your tires in tubeless ready not ust is that correct.so if I want to run say a racing ralph tubeless what would be a particular wheel/rim that you would recommend.I was almost to purchase some true ust wheels then I found out your tubeless ready tires were not a true ust bead is that so or do companies just not want to put the ust label on to avoid paying patent fees.what about your tires on some mavic 719 wheels with stans rim strips.want to try this tubeless thing but dont want to burp a tire and end up on my head.THANKS
    Hi Jim,
    This is a complicated subject to tackle over email, and is best handled by someone at your local bike shop explaining it to you in person.
    What you need for a tubeless conversion is a standard, non-ust, rim and a conversion kit; Stan’s makes a good conversion kit.
    Once you have those two things you can watch this video on the “How-To” process, schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tl-ready_video.
    Cheers,

    Ben
    Ben Forbes
    Tech Support
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    USA | CANADA
    1-888-700-5860 | 250-598-0397 ext.103
    schwalbetires

  19. #19
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    Ok I went to the LBS since they called me yesterday that my claim is now done.

    I went there this afternoon armed with my stans sealant and a new schwalbe rocket ron which almost again costs as much as an automobile tire


    I arrived there and the kind LBS team brought a new box from their stock room and opened it up. They got the rear wheelset and inspected the weld point.

    This one seems to be fine.

    I assisted the LBS mechanic to install the tire and when i saw that the tire is inflating i excused myself since i dont want to get wet with stans a third time

    What do you know? Its perfect. No wobble the beads bit into the rim as designed and here is the result


    So kudos to the local dealer and American Classic, though it took about a couple of weeks, they made it right. Im happy and will recommend their products again like i did before this incident happened.

    Those who haven't pulled the trigger and want a lightweight race rim, I recommend AC classic race.

    Again thank you to the local dealer Lifecycles, their staff and Mr. Eric Roque who insisted to AC classic to replace the wheel set.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonub View Post
    Ok I went to the LBS since they called me yesterday that my claim is now done.

    I went there this afternoon armed with my stans sealant and a new schwalbe rocket ron which almost again costs as much as an automobile tire


    I arrived there and the kind LBS team brought a new box from their stock room and opened it up. They got the rear wheelset and inspected the weld point.

    This one seems to be fine.

    I assisted the LBS mechanic to install the tire and when i saw that the tire is inflating i excused myself since i dont want to get wet with stans a third time

    What do you know? Its perfect. No wobble the beads bit into the rim as designed and here is the result


    So kudos to the local dealer and American Classic, though it took about a couple of weeks, they made it right. Im happy and will recommend their products again like i did before this incident happened.

    Those who haven't pulled the trigger and want a lightweight race rim, I recommend AC classic race.

    Again thank you to the local dealer Lifecycles, their staff and Mr. Eric Roque who insisted to AC classic to replace the wheel set.
    I had the same issue with a RaRa and a 29" Am Classic Race wheel, except mine was the front.
    I received the worst customer service I had ever experienced in my life from them. The were accusing me, talking about lawyers, and very aggressive. They did offer to to sell me a new set at nearly full price if I sent back this set. I ended up having to get my dealer and the bike manufacturer involved. It was enough to convince me to never but another of their products.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonw9 View Post
    I had the same issue with a RaRa and a 29" Am Classic Race wheel, except mine was the front.
    I received the worst customer service I had ever experienced in my life from them. The were accusing me, talking about lawyers, and very aggressive. They did offer to to sell me a new set at nearly full price if I sent back this set. I ended up having to get my dealer and the bike manufacturer involved. It was enough to convince me to never but another of their products.

    Holy crap!

    Thats terrible and your located conus? Where your consumers are very protected.

    I live in the PH and i got better service. It took them about 2 weeks.

    No product is perfect thus the warranty is there to protect us consumers. The race model seem to have problems but their mtb 26 or mtb 29 have less.

    It has to do with so little weight thus they impose a rider weight limit. Id revise their weight limit for the race from 200 to maybe 160 or so pounds.

  22. #22
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    AM Classic Race problem or schwalbe problem

    Yes, I am in the US.
    I admit that after the snafu the wheels held up for the entire race season with no further issues.
    If only dealing with the company didnt leave such a bad taste.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonw9 View Post
    Yes, I am in the US.
    I admit that after the snafu the wheels held up for the entire race season with no further issues.
    If only dealing with the company didnt leave such a bad taste.
    So far,

    The new set i got works fine. Though it seems that i have a very slight up and down wobble on my front tire which was not there before.

    There is no side to side wobble thus it may be the tires. Ill use it for another 4 months and remove the tires to check its up and down true.

    jonw9,

    Are you still using the race set? how is it doing any issues in truing?

  24. #24
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    AM Classic Race problem or schwalbe problem

    I hade them tried once last year, so they held up pretty well. They were my training and racing set, so plenty of use.

    There was a pretty good wobble when I brought them in, but I don't know how difficult they were to true.

    I plan on using them again this year.

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