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Thread: Rotaz hubs

  1. #1
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    Rotaz hubs

    Has anyone tried to take these apart? They are definitely WW hubs. I figure if anyone has ripped them apart, I would find them here.

    The rear comes apart just by tugging on the end caps, but I can't figure out the front. I suspect the ends just pop off the front as well, but I thought I would ask before I upped the force and risked damaging the thing.

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    I am curious about these hubs too. They go for $150 on fleebay and have a claimed weight (pair) of 380 grams. I figure at $/gram, thats a pretty good deal for a set of hubs, I just have concerns about the quality/durability/serviceability.

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    Not answering your question, but I think these are the same as the A2Z hubs.
    2010 Giant Anthem X
    Friends don't let friends ride Tune hubs.

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    I'm pretty sure these are American Classic knock offs. The outside looks identical, and the bearings are a non-standard size that are also used by the AC hubs. Endurobearings.com carries them, so service won't be an issue.

    The total weight listed for the Rotaz hubs was within 3 grams. I guess they shaved some weight off the AC hub design somewhere. Hopefully, they didn't use weaker materials to save weight. I've had them all apart, and I didn't see anything scary. The freewheel has 6 pawl pairs, and the ratchet looks like some kind of hardened nylon. It's very quiet and smooth.

    My only complaint is the front bearings have a 15mm ID which means I can't make some new end caps and use them with the stiffer 20mm TA. I guess the Fox TA would fit, but I don't have one to play with.

    I have these laced to some ZTR 355's, but haven't had them on a bike yet. It will be a couple more weeks before I have all the parts for the bike I'm putting them on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adept1
    Not answering your question, but I think these are the same as the A2Z hubs.
    I think you're right. I was actually looking for the A2Z hubs on Google when I ran across a reference to these. I'm still convinced they are AC knock offs, or at least a very close derivative.

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    Wow belljeff, thanks. that wheel setup you described sounds really similar to what i would like to try- Rotaz hubs on a Stan's Arch with Wheelsmith 14-17-14 spokes. I did some more looking over the past day and found out that Rotaz, A2Z, AC, and WTB are all produced by the Chin Haur company in Tiawan. i looked a lot yesterday and i could be mixing something up, so don't take that for gospel.

    I would like to hear how your hubs hold up- some other threads on mtbr have indicated that they do a pretty good job.

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    I'll try to remember to update this thread in a couple of months. If something breaks, I'll update it sooner

  8. #8
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    Any updates here with the A2Z or Rotaz builds with the Stans rims? Strangely similar to what I'm thinking about doing. Thanks!

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    They're were still working fine two weeks ago, but I haven't had much time on that bike lately. I changed the tires to Race Kings and one refused to stay inflated for more than a couple of days. The tires were muddy when I mounted them which is probably the reason. I've just been too busy to do anything about it.

    I think I have maybe 6 hours riding time on them, all general XC. They felt smooth and stiff, no complaints at all. I did read in another thread the Rotaz rear hub has a problem with the freewheel ratchet slipping. The ratchet is some kind of plastic, maybe Teflon, pressed into the hub body, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. It hasn't happened to mine, though.

  10. #10
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    Should you open up the hub again, could you make some pictures of the mechanism and seals? I'm really curious how durable these hubs are...

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    I'm in the same boat. Interested in purchasing these hubs to build a light 29er wheelset, but a little worried about freehub quality. I read in older posts from a couple of years ago about freebub problems. On the ebay page it says the hub has a new freehub design with more ratchets. What to do??? Does anyone have any of these hubs they have used long term?

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    A friend of mine recently bought a set of these. We pulled them apart to see what is inside.

    Shell is almost exactly the same as my newer american classics. The machining is a bit more extensive on the AC at some parts - namely the disc mount is relieved a bit more on the AC. Shape is identical. Absolutely made in the same factory on the same tooling.

    The cassette body is aluminum with 27 detents in the ratchet. I thought the ratchet part looked like steel, or something harder than aluminum, but perhaps the other poster is right that it is nylon?

    Six pawls, appear to be identical to AC pawls. Spring mechanism is totally different. Chincy looking wound wire springs are wrapped around nylon cylinders. These push the pawls into the ratchets. Similar to what White Industries, Hope do, only those use spring steel that looks like a bent sheet as the spring (could probably swap to that if it becomes a problem). The AC uses a compex mechanism with no springs, a wire on the cassette body engages a plate and pushes the pawls into the ratchet. The AC way is more complex... no idea which works better.

    Axles look just like AC, only there is no way to preload the bearings - no threaded cone on the end. The ends just pull right off. Most hubs don't have a way to do this, so likely not a problem. Axle ends are very slick looking.

    Rear has 4 bearings, front 2. Pull axle ends hard to get them off and get it apart, takes just a second.

    Titanium skewers that come with them are very cool, look like they were made in the same factory as KCNC. The design is identical, styling very very similar, looks like the same thing, but the KCNC goes through another pass of machining and uses brass bushings instead of nylon.

    I own two sets of AC hubs, one road and one mtb disc. I would buy these rotaz in a second seeing them side by side.

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    Thanks for the review!

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    I checked the specs and it seems to me that the Rotaz and AC hubs have different spoke hole diameter (60 vs 66mm respectively).Can anybody confirm this?

    Thanks
    >Fab
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    These rear hubs are garbage. If you ride seriously you have to by twice ;-)
    Here are some pics after some Km's

    http://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/img/phot.../chinhaur1.jpg

    http://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/img/phot.../chinhaur2.jpg

    http://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/img/phot.../chinhaur3.jpg

    Cannot recommend these.

  16. #16
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    What exactly is "some" kms ? You've got wear marks in the Al splines of the freehub body that are seen in hubs after thousands of kms.

    I just got a set of the Rotaz hubs myself, the weights were 136g Front / 250g Rear, new version freehub off ebay a couple weeks ago. The skewers which were included were the really nice bonus, 30g / 34g respectively for actual QRs.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

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    Whats wrong with the pawls? Only the splines seem damaged...
    DeeEight, where/from who did you get the newer freehub body, and what was "new" about it?

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    http://cgi.ebay.com/Rotaz-Disc-Hubs-...item2c505a2383

    Yan_Kelly is the ebay seller i used, and have used for a good number of parts this year.
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  19. #19
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    It appears to me you were using the hub without the freehub body completely pushed on the hub. This can happen if you pull the freehub off and don't re-install it properly, as the seal can make installation tricky. Operator error?
    "Do not touch the trim"

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    http://cgi.ebay.com/Powerway-Disc-MT...item2c4d625c6c

    similar ebay find. check out their site, they're doing some bizarre engagement thing that doesnt even make sense. 48 points though!

  21. #21
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    What doesn't make sense about it? Besides common pawl setups I've seen ring drives, ratchet wheels, clutch mechanisms and planetary gear arrangements to freehubs. Heck I've got a set of Novatech disc hubs coming also that at a claimed 188g/305g are pretty reasonably light for $64US on the auction. I'm sure they just use a regular pawl type setup though like other Novatech rear hubs I've built with.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    What exactly is "some" kms ? You've got wear marks in the Al splines of the freehub body that are seen in hubs after thousands of kms.

    .....
    Hope for you that are kidding me regarding the wear marks
    Some Km means < 1000Km. Thats less than one month for a lot of MTB riders.

    I have more than 8 years experience with hubs from Chin Haur and since this time the problems are allmost the same. No matter if there are branded as American Classic, Rotaz, A2Z, Ritchey and so on. The rear hub is nothing for serious riding, except you are lightweight like a feather, ride allways in dry conditions and your legs have no power (or you are a pro with some replacement wheelsets).

    But you are all old enough I guess. By and I am sure you remember in this thread latest in some month.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Rotaz-Disc-Hubs-...item2c505a2383

    Yan_Kelly is the ebay seller i used, and have used for a good number of parts this year.
    Thats good to know... how much did he charge? And are the "new" splines also this plastic/nylon material?

    I guess you could also replace it with an american classic freehub, or wouldn't those fit?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    What doesn't make sense about it?
    o cricoid spring structure? whats that even mean?

    its a standard pawl gear setup.. i dont know how they're using a circoid spring in it.. they claim its patented but give little/no information on what they're doing different than any other hub.

    you think its a novatech?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by checky
    Hope for you that are kidding me regarding the wear marks
    Some Km means < 1000Km. Thats less than one month for a lot of MTB riders.

    I have more than 8 years experience with hubs from Chin Haur and since this time the problems are allmost the same. No matter if there are branded as American Classic, Rotaz, A2Z, Ritchey and so on. The rear hub is nothing for serious riding, except you are lightweight like a feather, ride allways in dry conditions and your legs have no power (or you are a pro with some replacement wheelsets).

    But you are all old enough I guess. By and I am sure you remember in this thread latest in some month.
    So what you're babbling/whining incoherently about is that the rotaz hubs simply repeat the same problems you have experienced with the Ritchey, AC and WTB labeled versions.Well if that's all then for the other 99% of us who aren't fat drunken slobs and never have issues with the freehubs of those branded hubs (my 29er wheelset has several thousand kms with no freehub spline wear or pawl slippage using WTB labeled ChinHaurs) the rotaz versions will do fine.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  26. #26
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    You are very likable!
    sorry, I cannot know, that you are the most intellectually undemanding member in here.

    Congratulations for your unproblematic hubs, enjoy them.
    Nevertheless are this rear hubs from poor poor quality and myself, as also a lots of other people have some issues with it (as you can read in some forums).
    I am sorry when you dont want to read this.

    fyi: http://www.forum.light-bikes.de/pict...pictureid=3140 Its only a fractional amount.

    But .. You are right .. of course

    Merry Christmas

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by checky
    This link doesn't work, its probably only accessible for members of that forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by checky
    Hope for you that are kidding me regarding the wear marks
    Some Km means < 1000Km. Thats less than one month for a lot of MTB riders.
    1000km is about 620 miles. That is A LOT of miles for A LOT of mtber's to do in one month. I'd have to ride 21 miles a day every day of the month to get those miles. If you factor in the fact that many of us have road bikes or CX bikes, I could very well get months of riding in before my mountain bike hits 1000km.

    I'm not saying I'd be super happy with that hub, and it's wear. But it could very easily get me through a nasty winter.

    Thanks for the pics!

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    just out of curiosity has anyone tried using a LDL replacement freehub on these?

    http://img1.qbp.com/6SPsvm45/prodl/HU1552.jpg

    looks like a pretty solid match with http://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/img/phot.../chinhaur1.jpg

    Also, again just be curious, has anyone tried using a dry lubricant on the pawl interface? It seems like a nylon/alloy interface would not require a grease lubricant. This might alleviate some of the issues with poor sealing as contaminants would not stick to a dry lube.

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    Getting the feeling that checky is biased... TONS of people have high miles on AC hubs replacing nothing but bearings. If your freehub body is chewed up it is your fault for using a cassette without a carrier on an alloy body. If you want to use a cheap cassette buy XT hubs... hubs with alloy bodies aren't a good value proposition for anyone who wants to buy a cheap cassette.

    The AC mountain hubs have a great reputation, as do the WTB hubs. It is common knowledge that Chin Huar makes these, and it seems they also make the Rotaz. These hubs are all very similar, but not identical.

    Between the AC and Rotaz the hub body and pawls appear to be functionally the same (the AC has been machined to remove weight a bit more), but the engagement mechanism is different. I haven't taken apart a WTB, but the AC uses a strange circular spring and plate to engage the pawls. The Rotaz uses the same (visually) pawls, but uses a more traditional spring engagement (the springs are small with nylon supports - a bit cheezy looking).

    The Rotaz has much better engagement than the AC - roughly double the engagement points, but personally I trust the proven AC engagement mechanism enough to give up the engagement relative to the (never used before by me) cheap looking coil spring behind the pawls.

    The Rotaz hubs are great for the money. The WTB are widely considered to be exactly the same as the AC. The Rotaz are not, but are very close. If their pawl springs hold up these things are a steal. If not just replace them with spring steel like White Industries, Hope, etc uses.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kroe
    Getting the feeling that checky is biased... TONS of people have high miles on AC hubs replacing nothing but bearings. If your freehub body is chewed up it is your fault for using a cassette without a carrier on an alloy body. If you want to use a cheap cassette buy XT hubs... hubs with alloy bodies aren't a good value proposition for anyone who wants to buy a cheap cassette..
    Of course I am biased, but only because of own experiences with unfortunately lots of these hubs.
    If you really think I post the pic of the freehubbody because of the wear marks in the Alu, you are blind, or understand nothing, please look at the steel engagement (and no, that is not because of wrong assembling, this happend at some rear hubs and these where not all mine ;-) . For your information: I use XTR cassettes.
    Give them a try if you want

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kroe
    The Rotaz uses the same (visually) pawls, but uses a more traditional spring engagement (the springs are small with nylon supports - a bit cheezy looking).
    I'd like to see this mechanism before I'd buy it... could you please make a photo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one
    I'd like to see this mechanism before I'd buy it... could you please make a photo?
    The Chin-Haurs i got looked like this:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rotaz hubs-ch-explosion.jpg  

    Rotaz hubs-ch-freilauf.jpg  

    Attached Images Attached Images

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    The Chin-Haurs i got looked like this:
    Hi nino, we talked about this hub before, thanks for being helpfull.

    Apparently no cam-plate indeed, not sure if its a good or bad thing... simultanious engagement on 6 or 12 point would be nice I suppose.

    The seller said that the 2009 model has a new engagement system (54pts?)... yours is from <=2008 right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one
    Hi nino, we talked about this hub before, thanks for being helpfull.

    Apparently no cam-plate indeed, not sure if its a good or bad thing... simultanious engagement on 6 or 12 point would be nice I suppose.

    The seller said that the 2009 model has a new engagement system (54pts?)... yours is from <=2008 right?
    I have no idea what model mine were.I don't care as long as there's no issues. I haven't got any bad feedback.

    Meanwhile Amclassic is also using this style of freehub as opposed to that weird camplate design they used for years:
    http://www.amclassic.com/products/hubs/sixpawl.php

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    Meanwhile Amclassic is also using this style of freehub as opposed to that weird camplate design they used for years:
    http://www.amclassic.com/products/hubs/sixpawl.php
    I think it's the same design, still using a camplate to engage the pawls (which I personally like.) The description talks about the camplate (which is located behind the pawls). It seems like the only change might be deeper teeth on the freebody and of course the steel inserts on the freebody splines.

    No other multiple pawl system on the market can ensure that all pawls are engaged at the same time. The cam plate powers the pawls into engagement simultaneously. There are new expanded cupped engagement pockets in the cam plate for improved contact. The secondary ratchet system does the coasting and forces engagement of the large pawls only for drive torque transfer.
    Tire Design & Development Engineer. The opinions expressed in this forum are solely my own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    I have no idea what model mine were.I don't care as long as there's no issues. I haven't got any bad feedback.

    Meanwhile Amclassic is also using this style of freehub as opposed to that weird camplate design they used for years:
    http://www.amclassic.com/products/hubs/sixpawl.php
    Their "sixpawl" design is the one with the cam-plate. A metal wire-spring in the freehub catches the plate in a pocket under torque, after which de shifting plate pushes all 6 pawls into the ratchet, thats why I said "simultanious"

    See the quote on the AC site you linked:
    Quote Originally Posted by AC sixpawl
    One of Bill Shook’s most important designs is his patented Six Pawl Cam Actuated Engagement System found in our hubs. All six oversized pawls engage in unison whenever drive torque is applied. No other multiple pawl system on the market can ensure that all pawls are engaged at the same time. The cam plate powers the pawls into engagement simultaneously. There are new expanded cupped engagement pockets in the cam plate for improved contact. The secondary ratchet system does the coasting and forces engagement of the large pawls only for drive torque transfer. Each pawl is made from super strong tool steel and has double tips for 12 points of engagement. The cassette body has 24 ratchet teeth for engagement with the pawls. The one piece forged 7075 aluminum cassette body is hard anodized and is topped with Bill’s latest steel face body design.
    But maybe the simpler 6pawl-6spring construction is adequate... im just curious about the 2009 models, maybe they licensed the camplate construction.

    I would not be surprised if the pre-2009 models HAD to use a steel ratchet, in case only one pawls actually engaged and puts too much pressure on a single tooth (maybe explains checky's experiences), the AC ratchets seem to be aluminium, which could only work if all 6 (12?) engagement points engage at the same time to spread the load.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kroe
    The Rotaz hubs are great for the money. The WTB are widely considered to be exactly the same as the AC.
    Yes they are considerd to be the same but the claimed weights are slightly different :
    WTB= 146+265= 410g
    AC= 130+255=355g

    Rotaz is between the two at about 380g (actual) as shown in the picture above

    fab
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    A2Z is 119g/231g. Again it all comes down to the hub shells. The Rotaz and AC get more machining done to the flanges than the WTB does. The AC runs a narrower flange spacing as well. The A2Z runs different flange diameters. My particular 32H Rotaz hubs were 136/250g. I've got another 28H set of Rotaz on the way which I'll weigh to see if there's a significant variance with 8 less spoke holes.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    A2Z is 119g/231g. Again it all comes down to the hub shells. The Rotaz and AC get more machining done to the flanges than the WTB does. The AC runs a narrower flange spacing as well. The A2Z runs different flange diameters. My particular 32H Rotaz hubs were 136/250g. I've got another 28H set of Rotaz on the way which I'll weigh to see if there's a significant variance with 8 less spoke holes.
    Did you open your Rotaz rear hub(s) up yet? I'm still curious about the engagement mechanism... individual pawls with leaf springs or camplate?

    And what does A2Z use?

  41. #41
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    Guys, any other experience with the Rotaz? They are growing on me and since it seems the 2009 design is different I'm really thinking about giving them a try.
    Sette Ace Custom

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    I just got mine in the mail today. It'll be a while before I build up a new wheel however. I've got a pair of WTB laser disc hubs on my shelf, I'll compare them when I get home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CupOfJava
    I just got mine in the mail today. It'll be a while before I build up a new wheel however. I've got a pair of WTB laser disc hubs on my shelf, I'll compare them when I get home.
    I would appreciate if you could give us some feedback about them later.

    There's a guy in a brazilian bike forum that's been using them for over a year with 0 issues.
    Sette Ace Custom

  44. #44
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    My initial impression of them comparing them side by side with my WTB Laserdisc is that both the front and rear hubs feel lighter. The rear hub engagement is more immediate than the laserdisc. The laser discs feel like they have more movement before they actually engage. The Rotaz feel almost instantaneous compared to the laserdisc. The bearings on one side of the front hubs don't feel as smooth as the other side. I don't think it will affect performance, but it makes me think about the workmanship a little. Overall the hubs look and feel great and I would probably buy them over WTB laserdiscs in the future for the price, weight, and the engagement feel. The skewers that came with the hubs were a nice bonus.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamud
    There's a guy in a brazilian bike forum that's been using them for over a year with 0 issues.
    i think that is worthless without more details.
    please ask him for miles and conditions (mud, races, rider weight ...)

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastback67
    i think that is worthless without more details.
    please ask him for miles and conditions (mud, races, rider weight ...)

    Will try to do that and report back.
    Sette Ace Custom

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    I chose these hubs for 3 reasons
    - price
    - weight
    - flange geometry
    The are built onto Notubes ZTR Race 7000 rims with DT Swiss Revolution spokes. Total wheel weight 1250grams. As the rims were so light and not able to withstand high spoke tensions I wanted hubs that allowed even tensions.

    The high flanges promote a stiff wheel and the relatively narrow NDS rear flange width allows the tension to be closer to the DS tension than most rear hubs allow. The wheels have not needed to be touched since being built. The usage has been limited to National Series races and the odd ride to test their durability so a total of about 20 hours riding. It was aggressive though.

    Onto the hub reliability.
    Freehub body - Made of cheese like most hubs of this design. 5 hours with a cassette made up of individual titanium cogs left some significant indentations.
    Freehub mechanism - Hasn't missed a beat. It doesn't use that problematic American Classic cam plate design. Instead it has a much more common 3 pawl/circular spring setup.
    Bearings/sealing - rubbish. The hubs roll fast because the sealing is fairly non-existant. The external rubber seals do next to nothing as they're so loose. At this price the bearings are of low quality. One wet race (really wet - brand new metallic brake pads gone in 2 hours) and the bearings had seized by the next day.

    For my use as a light, race day hub they're exactly what I expected and exactly what I wanted. They're cheap, light, fast and build an evenly tensioned wheel with light rims. I use an XX cassette now so the freehub body damage is not a concern. I keep a couple of sets of bearings in my tool box and can overhaul the hubset in about 20 minutes with no special tools. They do use a proprietary bearing size that my local bearing shop couldn't get hold of. I got a few off ebay in the UK for about 6 aussie dollars each.

    My suggestion. Race day or dry weather only. If they see moisture be prepared for maintenance.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
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    So, which one would be a better choice, price and weight aside, A2Z: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-a2z-Disc-Bra...item27afbb7b30 Or the Rotaz in question?
    Sette Ace Custom

  49. #49
    Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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    Essentially its the same hub other than the Hi-Lo flanges and lighter weight of the A2Z. It really comes down to the colours of the annodizing and the spoke hole counts (i've found 28H Rotaz but not A2Z for example) available on ebay.

  50. #50
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    Well, in this case I guess I'll go with the Rotaz. Comes with titanium skewers, plactically the same weight of the A2Z, can use 258mm spokes on the rim I'm planning to buy and cheaper shipping.

    What about these Novatec, a bit more weight but nothing killer: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2156wt_911
    Last edited by Hamud; 05-17-2010 at 05:22 PM.
    Sette Ace Custom

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