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  1. #1
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    Pro XC riders with disc brakes

    Is it me or have disc brakes taken over the XC pro ranks? Definitely a lot more than riders you see riding with V brakes. Considering that v-brakes + non disc wheels can still be lighter than disc and disc wheels, I just wonder if the switch is due to the request of their respectable sponsors. just a thought...

  2. #2
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    absolutely....concocted by shimano

    Quote Originally Posted by kfcninja
    Is it me or have disc brakes taken over the XC pro ranks? Definitely a lot more than riders you see riding with V brakes. Considering that v-brakes + non disc wheels can still be lighter than disc and disc wheels, I just wonder if the switch is due to the request of their respectable sponsors. just a thought...
    Shimano is making Shimano sponsered XC riders use disk brakes - talk about marketing!!!!

  3. #3
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    The winners (women and men) of OL-gold...

    are both riding Hardtails with V-brakes!

    Julian Absalon (shimano-sponsored)


    Gunn-Rita Dahle (Avid)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by emkay
    are both riding Hardtails with V-brakes!

    Julian Absalon (shimano-sponsored)


    Gunn-Rita Dahle (Avid)
    Although the men/women olympic winners were both using v brakes. I would say that they are now a minority when compared to the riders using discs. I would have to agree with Tomassini - it's simply a sponsorship issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Absalon with Shimano disc brakes soon now that he's won the gold in the olympics.

  5. #5
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    Given the ever decreasing weight penalty associated with discs, combined with their better braking in varied conditions, it seems that they will continue to become more prevelant. The Magura Martas (claimed 325g, really about 340 grams) represent vitually no weight penalty over V brakes. This leaves the hubs as the only penalty, and with things like WTB/AM Classic hubs that can be built into disc wheels of 1500-1600 grams, that penalty is going away.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

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    Absalon-disc

    I have seen pictures in velonews of Julien Absalon using disc brakes (shimano). I believe he chose Vees in the Olympics because of the dry conditions. The pictures I have seen with him on discs were taken at wet and muddy World Cup races. It seems that most riders were very concerned with bike weight at the Olympics, probably due to the very steep and punchy power climbs. It only seems that Shimano is mandating disc brakes for its North American sponsored riders, as many Europeans with Shimano sponsorship seem to be able to choose disc or V as they prefer.

  7. #7
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    V's weight advantage...

    Quote Originally Posted by CDMC
    Given the ever decreasing weight penalty associated with discs, combined with their better braking in varied conditions, it seems that they will continue to become more prevelant. The Magura Martas (claimed 325g, really about 340 grams) represent vitually no weight penalty over V brakes. This leaves the hubs as the only penalty, and with things like WTB/AM Classic hubs that can be built into disc wheels of 1500-1600 grams, that penalty is going away.
    well - we had this debate on and on...discs are ok in deep mud, rain and snow. when you have these circumstances discs are an advantage. other than that they are added weight and not needed.

    below a comparison of ALL LIGHTEST disc vs. V-brake:

    DISCBRAKE:
    older Formula B4 SL : 631g
    -trade steel rotor for Stans Aluminium rotor -124 grams
    -Soul-Kozak disc-hubs 105/205 = 310g
    -disc mounts on frame+fork +40g
    -canti brake posts -20g
    Total 837g

    V-BRAKE:
    -Calipers Steinbach 180g
    -Brake levers 64g Extralite
    -Brake cables 50g
    -Soul-Kozak/Extralite hubs 51/164g= 215g
    -28 spoke count f+r -35g
    Total 474g

    advantage V-Brake: 363g
    Last edited by nino; 10-28-2004 at 12:39 PM.

  8. #8
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    Don't forget about rim weight!

    Stan's Olympic Disc rim saves at least 100 grams over any v-brake rim I am aware of and even more over ceramic/coated rims. OK, maybe only 50 over Stan's coated rims? I'm not sure how well those are working out though. To be fair, I can't say that I was happy with the performance of the aluminum rotors I tried either. The added weight of disc brakes is lower from a center of mass perspective and the lighter rims will accelerate easier. Also don't forget that frames must be made with braces and stronger for the v-brake caliper.

    I'm curious how more common lightweight parts compare? Most of the parts mentioned, including the Stan's Olympic Disc rims I mentioned above, are not exactly common even in the weight weenie world!

    No doubt that the lightest v-brake setup is still lighter than the lightest disc.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    well - we had this debate on and on...discs are ok in deep mud, rain and snow. when you have these circumstances discs are an advantage. other than that they are added weight and not needed.
    Speak for yourself, I overheat my Avid Juicy Sevens on steep downhills if I am not careful. V-brakes on the same decent are sketchy and I have to go much slower because they overheat trying to slow me down from higher speeds. This is in the dry, but I can guarantee that I weigh much more than you.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  10. #10
    Mtc
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    I don't think they make you win races, but disks rock for all conditions. I have 2 Epics for endurance racing one with disks and one with V's. When I jump on the back up bike(V's) I have to get used to applying the brakes 10 feet sooner and it is scary the first few desents. By the end of my V bike laps my hands feel worked. Even when I am up to speed the disk out preform in wet and dry.
    My sub 25.5lbs Epic build would build a sweet 22 lbs Ti HT with disks. Isn't that light enough? Oh thats right its never light enough?!
    In closing you can chose performance over weight some times, I've gone from 21.5 HT to 25.5 FS with disks and love it. Though I'm sure its me and not the bike its taken me to the front of my class NORBA and enduranceracing.

    My.02

  11. #11
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    Stans and Amclassic rims

    Quote Originally Posted by B R H
    Stan's Olympic Disc rim saves at least 100 grams over any v-brake rim I am aware of and even more over ceramic/coated rims. OK, maybe only 50 over Stan's coated rims? I'm not sure how well those are working out though. To be fair, I can't say that I was happy with the performance of the aluminum rotors I tried either. The added weight of disc brakes is lower from a center of mass perspective and the lighter rims will accelerate easier. Also don't forget that frames must be made with braces and stronger for the v-brake caliper.

    I'm curious how more common lightweight parts compare? Most of the parts mentioned, including the Stan's Olympic Disc rims I mentioned above, are not exactly common even in the weight weenie world!

    No doubt that the lightest v-brake setup is still lighter than the lightest disc.
    you can get Stans rims as well as Amclassic rims as light as the olympic.that's why i left them out. i also didn't take into account any possible weak parts (Soul-Kozak hubs and Stans rims). it was about having the lightest parts on both sides.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    well - we had this debate on and on...discs are ok in deep mud, rain and snow. when you have these circumstances discs are an advantage. other than that they are added weight and not needed.

    below a comparison of ALL LIGHTEST disc vs. V-brake:

    DISCBRAKE:
    older Formula B4 SL : 631g
    -trade steel rotor for Stans Aluminium rotor -124 grams
    -Soul-Kozak disc-hubs 105/205 = 310g
    -disc mounts on frame+fork +40g
    -canti brake posts -20g
    Total 837g

    V-BRAKE:
    -Calipers Steinbach 180g
    -Brake levers 64g Extralite
    -Brake cables 50g
    -Soul-Kozak/Extralite hubs 51/164g= 215g
    -28 spoke count f+r -35g
    Total 474g

    advantage V-Brake: 363g
    Just wonderin'.... how much fluid does a typical hydraulic disc system use ??? ...is that weight ever factored in when manufacturers give weight specs ?? I have no idea...LOL...vees work just fine for my riding, thanx

  13. #13
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    Brake preference is largely dependent on not just conditions of weather but also which type of course or trail. Some technical trails - disks are a real advantage. As for racing in anything but mud or rain - v's are the natural choice.

    There is some merit with going with technology simply because it is technology and essentially works better despite weight penalties.

    I doubt Nino would advocate a rim brake system for motocross despite it would save weight. That would be ridiculous - and dont say motos go too fast - road bikes top out just as fast on descents and use rim brakes.

    He does a great job of showing that despite at the lightest vs lightest - the penalty is under a pound - I CAN DEAL WITH THAT.

    The point I am getting to here is that disks are essentially superior - as for the added weight - train more and get stronger legs.


    Dp

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dparis
    Brake preference is largely dependent on not just conditions of weather but also which type of course or trail. Some technical trails - disks are a real advantage. As for racing in anything but mud or rain - v's are the natural choice.

    There is some merit with going with technology simply because it is technology and essentially works better despite weight penalties.

    I doubt Nino would advocate a rim brake system for motocross despite it would save weight. That would be ridiculous - and dont say motos go too fast - road bikes top out just as fast on descents and use rim brakes.

    He does a great job of showing that despite at the lightest vs lightest - the penalty is under a pound - I CAN DEAL WITH THAT.

    The point I am getting to here is that disks are essentially superior - as for the added weight - train more and get stronger legs.


    Dp
    good riders use their brakes quite different than most mortals. i ride all winter long in deepest mud and snow too and only 3 times wished i had a discbrake last year. that was when ice was builing up on my ceramic coated rims.

    i just built me a winterbike with v-brakes and the big 28" wheels don't have ceramic...that hurts! those are weak brakes, i agree. i was surprised at how bad they are. in addition pads get eaten in a way i'm not used to. i shaved away a set almost completely on just a single 2 hours ride.

    i always compare V-s with Discs with perfect setup V's which for me is ceramic rims and good cables (Tune plastic are superslick and make for much stronger brakes because less handforce is wasted).
    i use ceramic rims exclusively since about 13 years and i really didn't remember how bad Vs are if you have bare aluminium rims in the dirt. on dry they are ok but still not that great but in the wet, which we have over here right now, they really suffer.

    so i really just listen to guys that have had their v's optimized before hopping on a disc-equipped bike. as said several times i have yet to try a discbrake (XC!) that is superior than my 214g Vueltas on ceramic rims. i always have to laugh on the bottom of downhill sections when my riding buddies have heated rotors with that "tztztztz..." which is the drag the bent rotors create when pedaling along. and i still haven't been passed by a single rider because he outbraked me. it's always the other way around so my brakes can't be that bad

    no, just kidding. i agree - discs for most users are an advantage. but a proper set up V (ceramic rims are a must!) are more powerful and good cables make for disc-like modulation. and they are lighter which is a positive sidenote for me too

  15. #15
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    One thing...

    When you seriously bend a wheel with V brakes, you have to either true it up pretty darn straight or disconnect the brake. With most disc set ups you just have to get the wheel to spin between the forks and away you go, you can now limp home with brakes in place!

    Now, if you've bent the disc, a relatively easy fix I hear. If the mounting or hub is shot... I don't care who you are, you're walkin' that puppy out disc brakes or not.
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  16. #16
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    Ceramic rims add 100 grams?

    When compared to Stan's Olympic Disc rims. I don't think the Olympic rims will prove to be unreliable. They are a thicker extrusion than the 355s which only seem to have had problems with the over-anodized few anyway. Also subtract another 50 grams since these rims don't require a rimstrip! I admit both these claims (reliable and no rimstrip) are yet unproven, but I think this will be the case. The new rim really holds the tire well!

  17. #17
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    Brake fluid weight/volume.

    The weight of the fluid is included in Formula brake weights. If I remember correctly, the total volume of fluid front and rear was somewhere around 50 ml.

    Not including the weight of the fluid would be really lame. Although RockShox doesn't (or at least didn't at one time) include the weight of fork oil in their forks! Isn't Marzocchi now not including the weight of steer tubes? Just ridiculous.

  18. #18
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    well said

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtc
    I don't think they make you win races, but disks rock for all conditions. I have 2 Epics for endurance racing one with disks and one with V's. When I jump on the back up bike(V's) I have to get used to applying the brakes 10 feet sooner and it is scary the first few desents. By the end of my V bike laps my hands feel worked. Even when I am up to speed the disk out preform in wet and dry.
    My sub 25.5lbs Epic build would build a sweet 22 lbs Ti HT with disks. Isn't that light enough? Oh thats right its never light enough?!
    In closing you can chose performance over weight some times, I've gone from 21.5 HT to 25.5 FS with disks and love it. Though I'm sure its me and not the bike its taken me to the front of my class NORBA and enduranceracing.

    My.02
    This is in part exactly why I switched the build of the curent project race bike I am putting together....

    Had a Ti hardtail on order...rode my friends and it reminded me how much I hate hardtails.

    Rode another friends Truth with v-brakes and it reminded me how much I hate v-brakes (as you describe).

    I would trade, in my case, the approx 3 lbs weight difference any day.....and still end up with a sub 24 lb FS bike.

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