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  1. #1
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    OT: I hear all this stuff about hating cheaters..

    and such on this board right now about Filip and I wonder who many of you have "Cheated" at your job or on a test or even on a bike race? Let's not even say "Drugs or Pharmacuticels" to be fair (well if you have taken caffiene, then you did you a performace enchancing drug )

    You mean no one hear has ever cheated? Yah it sucks that these athletes cheat with drugs, but hey, is it not "Win at all costs" mentallity that were are taught?
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"- Vince Lombardi

    I just find it hard to believe that no one here has ever cheated at all in anything! You've never chated in any sport you erver played even a tiny bit?
    Tests? Job? Hmmm....

    Just remember, "It's not cheating unless your caught" - I can't remember who's quote that was.

    Now personnaly I don't condone/endorse the use of "Illegal Performance Enhancing" drugs when they are banned, but if not then it's your body and up to you on what you do. It's not "cheating" if not banned correct?

    Just a reminder that 99% of this stuff can be obtained legally. So if your "Federation" or governing body does not ban it, it is cheating"

    Again MLB, HGH is legal! When Barry Bonds was accused of THG, it was not illegal! Sure know one knew about it, but it was not banned!

    Just something I was wondering about some of your thoughts....
    Last edited by DIRT BOY; 07-29-2004 at 01:26 PM.
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  2. #2
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    There's a big difference between my cheating then Filip's

    I've lost track of my cheating era. Regardless, my action were not going to affect millions of people, the whole country, or 5 people. My action was forgotten the next day. When do think people are going to forget Filip's?

  3. #3
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    You are going the wrong way

    The negative affect doping has on the sport of cycling cannot be overstated. Your attempt to remind us of the parable that he with a clear conscoiunce should cast the first stone is nice, but totally misguided. Filip and all other riders compete under the rules - break those rules and they MUST suffer the consequences, regardess of personal sentiment. If I cheat it isn't right, and if a cycler cheats it isn't right. There was a drug incident at my work about a year ago and those involved were terminated, so to insinuate that "cheaters" in the regular world get off and dopers don't is bogus. The fact that we are human means that we understand others weakness (because we have our own), but absolutely does not mean that a cheater should be handled lightly. There was a French rider in the tour this year (I think he won the stage on Bastille day) who had been caught, did his time and has now come back. If Filip chooses to do that, good for him. But at present he has cheated, he must suffer the consequences. He said he did it to ensure he would make the Olympics, well, he's not going, thankfully. Doping causes confusion and doubt in the sponsors (I wonder what Specialized will do now? - the Epic seeminly requires a doped rider to win - do you think they appreciate consumers thinking that??) and spectators who support the sport which just leads them to pursue other avenues for advertising and entertainment. I know I didn't allow myself to get too enthused about Lance's win just in case he tests positive - even though I don't think he dopes and has earned every win by dedication and serious training.



    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    and such on this board right now about Filip and I wonder who many of you have "Cheated" at your job or on a test or even on a bike race? Let's not even say "Drugs or Pharmacuticels" to be fair (well if you have taken caffiene, then you did you a performace enchancing drug )

    You mean no one hear has ever cheated? Yah it sucks that these athletes cheat with drugs, but hey, is it not "Win at all costs" mentallity that were are taught?
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"- Vince Lombardi

    I just find it hard to believe that no one here has ever cheated at all in anything! You've never chated in any sport you erver played even a tiny bit?
    Tests? Job? Hmmm....

    Just remember, "It's not cheating unless your caught" - I can't remember who's quote that was.

    Now personnaly I don't condone/endorse the use of "Illegal Performance Enhancing" drugs when they are banned, but if not then it's your body and up to you on what you do. It's not "cheating" if not banned correct?

    Just a reminder that 99% of this stuff can be obtained legally. So if your "Federation" or governing body does not ban it, it is cheating"

    Again MLB, HGH is legal! When Barry Bonds was accused of THG, it was not illegal! Sure know one knew about it, but it was not banned!

    Just something I was wondering about some of your thoughts....
    M

  4. #4
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    dirtboy, sorry but you need to think twice about the difference between being a national hero and a college student... are you drunk or something?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlos
    dirtboy, sorry but you need to think twice about the difference between being a national hero and a college student... are you drunk or something?

    Carlos....once...just once, I'd like to actually read a post of yours that involves some well-articulated thought or idea. I won't hold my breath, however. It stretches your capacity already to merely post something to inflame, hurt or insult without attempting to argue any noble or larger idea. Why don't you think before you put your fingers to the keyboard. Better yet, why don't you just refrain from speaking, because asking you to post something intelligent is, I'm afraid, asking too much.

  6. #6
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    Yes I agree their is a difference between a Professional...

    cheating and one of us. When they cheat hit hurts the integrity of the sport, sponsors, fans, etc...

    Just from views here and other boards/news outlets I was just seeing how everyone rips the guys for cheating calling immoral and stuff, but we all cheat all the time.

    Here we are ripping these guys yet we all do. Maybe I did not express my feelings right in the post.

    Look he cheated and he should pay. I am not goig to say I hate the guy(s), and never give them another chance.

    Again, maybe I just did not out the right words down.

    I guess I meant to say was, peole are suprised by this? Athletes and HUMANS cheat all the time. It's now almost become parts of sport.
    Ever notice in a baseball game, the pitcher will try to scuff or use a scuff ball to get an advantage?

    just don;'t be suprised when it happens to an Athlete, that all!!

    Yes it sucks and they should be punished!
    Last edited by DIRT BOY; 07-29-2004 at 01:32 PM.
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  7. #7
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    It's "He who is without sin, cast the first stone"... Big fat difference.

  8. #8
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    Ah yes, thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by bmadau
    It's "He who is without sin, cast the first stone"... Big fat difference.
    Manson probably has a clean conscience! That (the New Testament) was a lawless time when individuals/victims meted out punishment. Now, with all our laws I fear there is a separation from the perpetrator and the victim. There is no true FEAR of public reprisal, no FEAR of the unknown, because the consequences are spelled out and generally involvole banishment (from sport, to jail, etc.). And we lack that connection which makes people want to treat others properly. To me doping is the ultimate act of arrogance - Ha! I dare you to catch me! People don't like arrogance.
    M

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchito
    Carlos....once...just once, I'd like to actually read a post of yours that involves some well-articulated thought or idea. I won't hold my breath, however. It stretches your capacity already to merely post something to inflame, hurt or insult without attempting to argue any noble or larger idea. Why don't you think before you put your fingers to the keyboard. Better yet, why don't you just refrain from speaking, because asking you to post something intelligent is, I'm afraid, asking too much.

    what about you? all you said in your post was about me, what about the topic? where did i attacked or insulted dirtboy? is this the best you can do?
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  10. #10
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    I see your point but:

    Cheating has a degree of intent to it - Its nothing something that just happens, a person must intend to cheat, mislead or deceive. Thus in the context of sport or work cheating can be said to the be the intention to break a well established rule or custom in order to have an unfair disadvantage in a race, work event etc.

    In light of that, I can honestly say, since the only 3 sports I have ever done in my life were Hockey, Athletics and Cycling that I have never cheated. I have never intended to mislead or deceive or break a rule in the context of sporting. I have never seen a possible or justifiable opportunity to cheat in sport - I don't quite know how one cheats in a 400mtr track race if everything is timed electronically and 100's of witnesses watch you as you race.

    So no I haven't cheated in the context of sport, work - which for me would be university study and would never have the conscious thus far in my life to do so. It would not benefit me.

    Trevor!
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  11. #11
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    While there is some validity to the point about being careful about judging because we have all done something wrong before, its still not wrong to judge the individual act as being wrong. If that were the case, laws would be of no use, because everyone has done something wrong at some point in their life. Who would enforce the laws? Who would sentence criminals? Its the very basis for a what is called a moral standard. Its wrong no matter who does it. Just because so and so cheated on a test 15 years ago does not make it right for this other guy to cheat in a race.

    Regarding drugs or supplements that have not been banned, the rules were set up in an effort to put everyone on the same playing field, so to speak. In as much as possible, the race should be determined by talent, tactics, preparation, equipment, (and sometimes luck) etc. As long as everyone is playing by the same rules, these should be the basis of the race. Its when someone steps outside of the rules to give themselves an advantage that it becomes cheating. So no, drugs or suppplements that have not been banned do not constitute cheating, IMHO.
    If you want to play with electricity, more power to ya......

  12. #12
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    If I strapped a jet engine to my bike but didn't get caught...

    Dirt Boy is right....if someone is smart enough to come up with a rear hub that is powered by dilithythium crystals and they win the world cup...more power to them. It ain't cheatin if you don't get caught, right??

    Then old farts like me might stand a chance against the younguns.

    Cactushead..

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    Ok, let's say these drugs were legal to use...

    in competition, would it be fair if someone use them and won? Whould it to be the same as equipment or resource availabe?

    Funny but everyone wants to strip someone of a tiltle if they are caught using drugs, which under the rules would be cheating and I agree that a cheater should be punished.

    Also taking these performance enhancing does to guarantee victory or success!
    Sure i might help some, but it can also hurt others.

    I just thought I would post this question. Seem like everyone here is squeaky clean and never/would cheating in anything , well maybe Taxes ..LOL!!!!!
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  14. #14
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    if its legal, you can use it. if its illegal, you cant use it. filip was caught using a illegal substance, EPO, thats it. remember he was caught for the first time back in 97 with high ematocrit levels, but since they cannot determined what caused the "anomaly", he was not punished by uci. this time, the second time, he had no excuses, the tests where conclusives and showed the banned substance in his body.

    im not happy now, he is one of my favorate riders together with frishy, tomac,mini mig and bart brentjens but i cannot close my eyes, he cheated big time and must be punished with rigor.
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  15. #15
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    Everybody cheats???

    WTF???

    I dont cheat. I never cheated at sports. I never cheated or lied in a work situation. And I never cheated on a test.

    Its not like I never saw the opportunities. But I didnt take that extra step because...well...its wrong! Even though I knew I wouldnt get caught, it didnt change the fact that it would be WRONG! If nobody knew but me, it would still be cheating. Thats always been reason enough for me. In bike races, I have actually seen guys cutting the course. When I saw them do it, I didnt get angry. I felt sorry for them. I felt sorry that they were cheaters. I wouldnt want to be a cheater.

  16. #16
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    Elite atheletes

    In my experence all "winning" athletes consider cheating at one time or another. The many athletes, some of who still manage to reach top level, but never will much on the way don't have the burn to win.

    The excuesses about outside pressure from sponsors and the like that is mainly BS.

    Those who reach the to top have been pushing themselves all the way, and looking for the best way to get there the whole time. With this mindset, drugs are just another training option.

    At the time I was a semi-pro this was somthing I considered. I chose not to take anything at the time - mainly so the performance enhancement would be available if I needed it as a euro based pro.

  17. #17
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    Al Bundy said "It's not cheating unless your caught"

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    and such on this board right now about Filip and I wonder who many of you have "Cheated" at your job or on a test or even on a bike race? Let's not even say "Drugs or Pharmacuticels" to be fair (well if you have taken caffiene, then you did you a performace enchancing drug )

    You mean no one hear has ever cheated? Yah it sucks that these athletes cheat with drugs, but hey, is it not "Win at all costs" mentallity that were are taught?
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"- Vince Lombardi

    I just find it hard to believe that no one here has ever cheated at all in anything! You've never chated in any sport you erver played even a tiny bit?
    Tests? Job? Hmmm....

    Just remember, "It's not cheating unless your caught" - I can't remember who's quote that was.

    Now personnaly I don't condone/endorse the use of "Illegal Performance Enhancing" drugs when they are banned, but if not then it's your body and up to you on what you do. It's not "cheating" if not banned correct?

    Just a reminder that 99% of this stuff can be obtained legally. So if your "Federation" or governing body does not ban it, it is cheating"

    Again MLB, HGH is legal! When Barry Bonds was accused of THG, it was not illegal! Sure know one knew about it, but it was not banned!

    Just something I was wondering about some of your thoughts....

    ----------------------------------

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    and such on this board right now about Filip and I wonder who many of you have "Cheated" at your job or on a test or even on a bike race? Let's not even say "Drugs or Pharmacuticels" to be fair (well if you have taken caffiene, then you did you a performace enchancing drug )

    You mean no one hear has ever cheated? Yah it sucks that these athletes cheat with drugs, but hey, is it not "Win at all costs" mentallity that were are taught?
    "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"- Vince Lombardi

    I just find it hard to believe that no one here has ever cheated at all in anything! You've never chated in any sport you erver played even a tiny bit?
    Tests? Job? Hmmm....

    Just remember, "It's not cheating unless your caught" - I can't remember who's quote that was.

    Now personnaly I don't condone/endorse the use of "Illegal Performance Enhancing" drugs when they are banned, but if not then it's your body and up to you on what you do. It's not "cheating" if not banned correct?

    Just a reminder that 99% of this stuff can be obtained legally. So if your "Federation" or governing body does not ban it, it is cheating"

    Again MLB, HGH is legal! When Barry Bonds was accused of THG, it was not illegal! Sure know one knew about it, but it was not banned!

    Just something I was wondering about some of your thoughts....

    Actually the Vince Lombardi quote is......
    "Winning isn't everything--but wanting to win is."

  19. #19
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    Actually Vice has several quotes...

    starting with "Winning isn't everything..."

    If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?

    Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.
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  20. #20
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    Excellent interview with Thomas Frischknecht in 'Twenty Six' magazine

    He answers some questions about drug use in MTB racing. To paraphrase, he has not changed his training for over 10 years, but in the mid 90's he was getting podiums, then doping enforcement was severely slackened and suddenly he wasn't as competitive - and now that doping enforcement has increases, so have his results. He says mid-field riders can move up toe the podium by using EPO.

    Since this is people's livelyhood I think it is totally justified to react very strongly toward dopers. I imagine there are a lot of clean riders out there that basically get screwed by the few who dope. - if that comes off as hate, then so be it. It's that I dispise the doping, not the doper. I love my sport, it is a big part of my life. When someone intentionally damages it for self-interest I'm going to react.

    Sorry, but I could not find an online presence of 'Twenty Six' magazine, but it is a good read in the bookstore.




    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    and such on this board right now about Filip and I wonder who many of you have "Cheated" at your job or on a test or even on a bike race? Let's not even say "Drugs or Pharmacuticels" to be fair (well if you have taken caffiene, then you did you a performace enchancing drug )

    Just something I was wondering about some of your thoughts....
    M

  21. #21
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    hung up on dope

    I remember an article in a "well known mtb magazine" titled "how to cheat like a pro" ..... it highlighted various ways that professional racers - 24hr. racers in particular cheat. They had actual photo's of Rishi Grewel I think cutting the course in a 24hr. event. They talked about Roland Green getting the tool toss...etc.... the article was "half in jest" but it illustrated some things that - in my opinion- are just reflections of human nature.....it's very simple really. Do we really think that Roland would have won that race without a functioning cleat? Probably not....so I think that not only should people worry so much about doping.. as there are plenty of the other ways to grab seconds also.......look at the TDF this year....remember how long they spent on Lance's bike deciding if it met the weight? You think they did this for everyone? I guarantee that there were riders with bikes under weight limits in the tour this year...at any given moment. Is this a damaging as using a substance such as EPO......I don't know...but the fact remains that human beings are a strange bunch....don't get pissy or be surprised when common sense crumbles. If Filip was indeed telling the truth, then he fooled himself by playing a fools game, and he let his uncontrollable desire to be the best ruin everything for him. If there was anyone that didn't NEED to dope then it was him (based on the assumption that what he says is true)...so it's sad really. I feel sorry for him. It will damage the sport for some people ....but not for me. It just damages my opinion of Filip...(even though I don't know the guy... hahaa)
    I think the point dirtboy is trying to make is that.....we shouldn't be so surprised....it's a symptom of humanity.
    I wonder how man pro racers are doping - or have doped and don't even know it!!! Talk about freaky deaky my friends!
    There's nothing like having the world under your wheels......

  22. #22
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    Thank you and my point excatly...

    you seem to get my point and what I was trying get across.

    Yah, Roland was not cheating...Who knows what they did to Lance's bike to make it heavier.
    Could it be something that he could remove during the race easliy? Whould that be cheating or just fudging the rules???
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