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  1. #1
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    Nino's 2007 Eurobike update

    sorry guys for the long wait. i spent 4 days over there at the Eclipse booth and first did an update in my german forum. so just in case i don't make it to post all here right now you can go through pics here:
    http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showthread.php?t=237915


    so lets start:

    first of all the carbon trend is still going on. lots, lots of carbon all over. for me there hasn't been any real surprises. to be honest i only saw about 4 or 5 interesting items and only one bike brand doing it the way i like: SCOTT. sure i'm biased, i totally agree here but when you see those bikes and especially the weights you have to agree they set a new standard once again. the Scale HT is in its 3rd year and still unchanged. no competitor comes even close. i measured the Specialized HT at 1350g which is 1/3rd more than the Scott....the Scale now comes with a replaceable dropout and Scott offers a 5 year warranty (racing included!). the Fully Spark is just from another planet as well: 1790g including rear shock!! i measured the Spark 10 , that's the one without integrated seatpost, and it weighs exactly 1790g. amazing. that's over 700g lighter than the Specialized Epic S-Works Carbon. i don't know if Specialized did the right thing when they had that case with Scott last year because of the Genius...they will come back now and in my opinion will blow away the Epics right away. what a tank in comparison! did i already tell that Specialized forced me out of their booth? i went there with my scale and weighed all s-works framesets. when i was weighing the carbon epic and a guy behind me asked if that was a good weight i simply said "the competiton is lighter". 5 seconds later a speci-guy came over and grabbed my arm and said "please leave our booth, you are talking bad about our roducts...". well - i became pretty loud as well. what an arrogant pack these guys are. years ago i was as fascinated by specialized as i am now of Scott . i had s-works bikes for 4 years...but they definitely have to wake up now. as a weight consious rider you definitely have to stay away from Specialized !!! it's as easy as that.

    so, let's start with some interesting parts i spotted:

    -Ritchey WCS MTB carbon fork: 509g. that's INCLUDING steel cantistuds and massive expander plug in the steerer. i'd say the advertized weight of 470g is pretty close.

    -Atik integrated MTB crankset with titanium spindle: 718g. these are the exact same cranks as the Token i presented a couple of month ago. just with "ceramic" bearings and Ti-axle. still steel chainring bolts and 135g chainrings...so with some tuning 680g are easily done.

    -Bontrager XXX cranks: 744g (including Stronglight Twister 108 ISIS BB and bolts = 182g+ca. 25g). so the cranks alone are about 537g
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    Last edited by nino; 09-04-2006 at 11:39 PM.

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    more...

    let's go on with more crank:

    -Crank Brothers Cobalt: 618g. still a long way from the advertized 565g but anyway looking nice.

    -Crank Brothers ISIS BBs: they have all lenghts and are all pretty light. the weights are correct here as i weighed the 113mm version at 177g. if i remember right they offer a 5 year warranty!!! or was it 5000km? anyway - an unreal warranty. i just hope they really hold up...
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    more...

    i don't know much about discbrakes to be honest. i simply don't care about them too much but these steel rotors seemed pretty light to me. correct me if i'm wrong!

    160mm: 92g
    180mm: 113g
    203mm: 155g

    Jagwire carbon pads: 33g. still light BUT i spotted another brand which pads weighed just 26g/pair! i will get samples soon...

    Jagwire has those nice all carbon endcaps. my cheapo kitchen scale didn't show a weight for them...weighless
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    Last edited by nino; 09-05-2006 at 12:14 AM.

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    more...

    back to the Atik brand:

    those guys also offer BBs (square and ISIS) with Ti axles and "Tiramic" bearings. those bearings have ceramic balls and special treated races. they were all really smooth and are said to improve durability quite much. the bearings are much wider than standard steel bearings as well.

    Atik ISIS 108: 143g (Titan axle, oversize bearings)
    Atik square 103mm: 163g (Titan axle, oversize bearings)
    Atik square 107mm: 170g (Titan axle, oversize bearings)
    such a oversized "Tiramic" bearing. almost double the width of a regular one: 22g
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    more...

    i finally found some sweet and ultralight cables: 27g/m

    pictured below exactly 100cm of "Nokon-like" outers and inner liner. the segments stick together unlike Nokon which are just one behind the other. these you can click together and unclick where you want. i should get samples soon and together with Powercordz inner "wires" these set the new standard for ultralight cables!

    an other sweet surprise was that i got my second generation Ti-cassettes during the show:

    11-28 = 154g (158g incl. Al-Lockring)
    11-32 = 187g (191g incl. Al-Lockring)

    i will have to ride them and we'll see if they perform as desired
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    Last edited by nino; 09-05-2006 at 12:15 AM.

  6. #6
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    No other frames compare? How about the new BMC Hardtail. Claiming 950grams and they use normal cablre routing/derailleurs/seatpost sizes. Have you had a look at that and weighed it. I'd be interested to know if they come close.

    PS. I'm a Scale rider and agree that until now there's nothing else to compete with it. I'm hoping BMC will do that so we can get further development.

    Cheers, John.

  7. #7
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    The Ritchey carbon fork does remind me quite a lot of the Token fork That also have the 470g claimed weight... Couldn't find a picture of it...
    Real men ride 2*9

  8. #8
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    Hello Nino,

    Where was the Eclipse booth ? I didn't find it !
    That's a pity, i would have been happy to come say hi.

    I agree with you, not so much interesting things on the mtb side. But some very nice carbon road frames.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    i don't know much about discbrakes to be honest. i simply don't care about them too much but these steel rotors seemed pretty light to me. correct me if i'm wrong!

    160mm: 92g
    180mm: 113g
    203mm: 155g
    can you tell us the brand of those superlight rotors?

    thanks

  10. #10
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    Those rotors and cables look the best to me...

    How makes the rotors and cables? The Ritckey fork looks like a Winwood.

    It seems like the MTB side latley has hit a wall. Lot's more goodies on the road side.

    BMC frames loook REALLY nice and will challange SCOTT. Now I wouls NEVER ride a sub 1000g frame off road. For me, those are for big dollar people who ride smooth groomed trails. If you have one decent fall, your frame is all scratched up. I Also I worry aboput them holding up. I know CF can be made stronger than Alum, but I still worry.

    The CB ISIS BB look promising with thier warranty. I am still not 100% sold on External BB for MTBs.

    Now I have to say SCOTT has been impressive in the last few years. I bought a cheap SCOTT S60 Speedster for commuting/baby hauling/coffee running and I am VERY impressed of the ride on a $599 bike.
    The tubes are MASSSIVE on this thing and the ride is sweet! Handaling is very sharp!
    Now the paint succk. Trek for the same price gives a way better paint job. Also on the SCOTT is says it comes with an aluminum fork with a steel steertube. yet the fork has painted on it "carbon fiber." This is cheezy as a crock!
    Now I am liking the internal headset. I like is over Cane Creeks standard. easier to adjust.

    overall Eurobike looks kinds blah on the MTB. Lte's see what InterBike brings.

    SRAM is suposed to have some new brakes and ti cassttes for MTB and JAMIS will show a sub 900g road frame that's affordable.
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    i had a similar

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Scary
    I must agree with Nino, after seeing the Spark there is no doubt that Scott is pushing the envelope for frame weights.
    But the thing that impressed me most (and earned my respect) is Nino getting tossed from the Specialized booth. That company is a joke!

    confrontation with the specialized rep at a local mtb race, he was spewing absolute
    crap about their frames and i just let loose on him that they copied others and
    there is lighter stuff out there, and he basically turned away from me and wouldn't
    acknowledge i was still there, just went on trying to fill other peoples heads with
    lies.that co. is a joke, i can't believe people will actually buy their stuff.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by peabody
    confrontation with the specialized rep at a local mtb race, he was spewing absolute
    crap about their frames and i just let loose on him that they copied others and
    there is lighter stuff out there, and he basically turned away from me and wouldn't
    acknowledge i was still there, just went on trying to fill other peoples heads with
    lies.that co. is a joke, i can't believe people will actually buy their stuff.
    That's ridiculous! Why would the employee of a company not get in a confrontation with you at a trade show where he's representing said company!!

    The outrage. Seriously.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Scary
    Umm, because he is representing that company and is expected to act professionally...
    It is one thing to disagree and another to act like an A-HOLE. Specialized expects the latter. I know of several dealers dropping them becuase they are such a pain to deal with, especially with regards to their S-Works crap.
    I've been avoiding that brand ever since the Mountain Cycle lawsuit. We all like to think of cycling as a religion of purity and brotherly love, until it meets with American capitalism. Nevermind they patented the Horst-link nonesense. I do agree the S-Works line is obscenely overpriced, over-marketed and over-hyped.

  14. #14
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    who is ATIK

    I googled ATIK and didn't come up with anything related to those Tiramic BBs
    where can I get one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    BMC frames loook REALLY nice and will challange SCOTT. Now I wouls NEVER ride a sub 1000g frame off road. For me, those are for big dollar people who ride smooth groomed trails. If you have one decent fall, your frame is all scratched up. I Also I worry aboput them holding up. I know CF can be made stronger than Alum, but I still worry.
    Oh come on DB! I ride a frame that is a little under 1000grams (Scale Limited XL) I've wrecked two or three times, I've had the brake lever swing into the frame, the bikes toppled over in the wind onto concrete a few times and it's all good. The caveat is this is just one season but at my weight I am more worried about riding a really light alloy bike then a carbon. With Scotts better warrantee now that covers racing, if your bike fails you can get a new one. I think all frames are potentially scratched up when you fall as well.

    I'm let down Scott handlebar/stem is not lighter. With HMF and a weight that could trump a tweaked syntace and schmolke bar they could really have something to charge a premium for.

    I can't help but wonder if the Genius has a better rear sus design then the Spark. Additionally, while I think Speccy is moronic, their rear susy does have that brain thing which I hear works pretty well.

    Nino, any new info on the German-A Kilo fork? One of the Endorfins had it!

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    Response from Ritchey about price of carbon mtb fork

    I emailed Ritchey about that new fork.
    They say they are available right now and that the MSRP is $495.......
    After some discounting.......$400? What do you think a good price will be.
    My current fork is 3.4 pounds. I could drop a quick 2.3 pounds with that one.

    Just wondering, how hard is it to paint carbon if you don't want that carbon look?
    How about a flat black spray can of Rustoleum as a cheap looking finish. Everyone would think it was steel.... Of course that paint job might affect any resale prospect should you decide not to keep the fork.

  17. #17
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    I wonder how good these Atik / Token cranks are. they look very very interesting. Especially for the price I'm hoping they will be at. Around 230 or so USD or cheaper...

    Also anyone got any more info on the new BMC Team Elite 01 frame?

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    It was a pleasure to finally meet you Nino! And probably only because we took the other entry on Sunday, otherwise I'd just ran through that area at best. Cool to notice you're as helpful in person as on the web.
    I'm amazed by the nice WW stuff you found on the show, which I have overlooked. I must have ignored the Crankbrothers stuff, too fucussed on their silly light pedals, and my conversation with the rep.

    My highlight of the show : Trickstuf showed off a €1550 shift system of derailers and shifters. Lighter than most of the freaky and....hold on for this....hydraulic!! At the 3rd show day, the system still felt awesome. Shifting was telepathic, and the shifting method unique. If money were no object...
    From memory, rough weights : Derailers 161 and 93g, shifters 149g. Something like that. No idea about the cables, and who cares, with a functioning hydraulic shift system that light!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    It was a pleasure to finally meet you Nino! And probably only because we took the other entry on Sunday, otherwise I'd just ran through that area at best. Cool to notice you're as helpful in person as on the web.
    I'm amazed by the nice WW stuff you found on the show, which I have overlooked. I must have ignored the Crankbrothers stuff, too fucussed on their silly light pedals, and my conversation with the rep.

    My highlight of the show : Trickstuf showed off a €1550 shift system of derailers and shifters. Lighter than most of the freaky and....hold on for this....hydraulic!! At the 3rd show day, the system still felt awesome. Shifting was telepathic, and the shifting method unique. If money were no object...
    From memory, rough weights : Derailers 161 and 93g, shifters 149g. Something like that. No idea about the cables, and who cares, with a functioning hydraulic shift system that light!
    tell me more! links/pics?

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    I don't own a cam. If those shifters aren't all over the internet yet, I'm amazed.

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    The mightly google yeilded nothing for " Trickstuf "

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razr
    I've been avoiding that brand ever since the Mountain Cycle lawsuit. We all like to think of cycling as a religion of purity and brotherly love, until it meets with American capitalism. Nevermind they patented the Horst-link nonesense. I do agree the S-Works line is obscenely overpriced, over-marketed and over-hyped.
    There´s a Norwegian bike company called Hard Rocx http://www.hardrocx.no, they have been prohibited by Specialized in selling bikes abroad cause it is too similar to their model Hardrock.

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    nice to meet you as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    It was a pleasure to finally meet you Nino! And probably only because we took the other entry on Sunday, otherwise I'd just ran through that area at best. Cool to notice you're as helpful in person as on the web.
    hi,
    it was also a pleasure for me. finally a face behind a screen name! too bad you didn't come back as i would have been able to get you in contact with a good rim maker. did you have any luck with your project?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by STS
    can you tell us the brand of those superlight rotors?
    +1 - I would like to know as well...
    Last edited by Tag1; 09-07-2006 at 02:19 PM.

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    About Hydraulic shifting

    For more on the hydraulic shifting look here:
    http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showthread.php?t=237699
    http://www.5rot.com/

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    i finally found some sweet and ultralight cables: 27g/m

    pictured below exactly 100cm of "Nokon-like" outers and inner liner. the segments stick together unlike Nokon which are just one behind the other. these you can click together and unclick where you want. i should get samples soon and together with Powercordz inner "wires" these set the new standard for ultralight cables!

    an other sweet surprise was that i got my second generation Ti-cassettes during the show:

    11-28 = 154g (158g incl. Al-Lockring)
    11-32 = 187g (191g incl. Al-Lockring)

    i will have to ride them and we'll see if they perform as desired
    Also the PC inner wires will soon be compatible w/Nokon housing as well. Did you happen to notice if Power Cordz has a Extralite Ultrabrake compatible cable clasp bolt out yet? Maybe they are only going to the Interbike show?

    Also, how about a 12/29 cassette? This would allow one to run a 22t granny up front instead of a 20t, avoid the shifting issues involved with the 20t granny and still have the same gear range as running the DA cassette in back with a 20t granny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    hi,
    it was also a pleasure for me. finally a face behind a screen name! too bad you didn't come back as i would have been able to get you in contact with a good rim maker. did you have any luck with your project?
    2 Days of Eurobike is too little...
    No, no further luck yet.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    back to the Atik brand:

    those guys also offer BBs (square and ISIS) with Ti axles and "Tiramic" bearings. those bearings have ceramic balls and special treated races. they were all really smooth and are said to improve durability quite much. the bearings are much wider than standard steel bearings as well.

    Atik ISIS 108: 143g (Titan axle, oversize bearings)
    Atik square 103mm: 163g (Titan axle, oversize bearings)
    Atik square 107mm: 170g (Titan axle, oversize bearings)
    such a oversized "Tiramic" bearing. almost double the width of a regular one: 22g
    That Atik crankset perks my interest. I wonder what the BCD is on the rings?
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  30. #30
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    chainrings...

    Quote Originally Posted by Axis II
    That Atik crankset perks my interest. I wonder what the BCD is on the rings?
    these are standard 4-bolt chainrings like you have on XT cranks...104/64mm

    the rings aren't light: 135g
    chainring bolts are steel!

    so with minor tuning these cranks should be well under 700g. like i said , 680g are easily done.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    i finally found some sweet and ultralight cables: 27g/m

    pictured below exactly 100cm of "Nokon-like" outers and inner liner. the segments stick together unlike Nokon which are just one behind the other. these you can click together and unclick where you want. i should get samples soon and together with Powercordz inner "wires" these set the new standard for ultralight cables!

    an other sweet surprise was that i got my second generation Ti-cassettes during the show:

    11-28 = 154g (158g incl. Al-Lockring)
    11-32 = 187g (191g incl. Al-Lockring)

    i will have to ride them and we'll see if they perform as desired
    don't you think the new Carbon-Nokon (also at Eurobike) are lighter?

    please, post the brake rotors brand

  32. #32
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    So Nino, where are you going to post up the road stuff?
    This space for rent.

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    not much road...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosehead
    So Nino, where are you going to post up the road stuff?
    as i said i didn't find too many interesting items. i won't post complete bikes as those don't interest me at all.

    i weighed the new Amclassic magnesium 300 wheels which are really, really, really light: 1145g for the clincher version, 1120g for the tubular version. i had a long conversation with Bill Shook and he promised the hub problems are now a thing of the past. well, i still think he should go with a basic freehub design but if those tolerance issues are a thing of the past the hubs should finally be killer. i have to say i never had any freewheel problems. mine still work smooth. but there's been some problems in past years...anyway - he said they figured out where the tolerance problem was and it got finally solved.

    these mag wheels will be killer. i already had the "old" magnesium wheels (1220g) which make you accelerate like you were on EPO but the new ones got another 100g lighter at the rims so i bet they make you go even faster.

    AX-Lightness presented a 68g all carbon stem but since i can't stand those guys and their insane pricing i didn't take a picture as well. you should be able to find some info elsewhere.
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    Last edited by nino; 09-11-2006 at 12:00 PM.

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    How can I get one of those Atik or Bontrager crancksets?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slobberdoggy
    That's unreal. I dunno if I would trust it on my road bike even.
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    no seatpost: 68g stem !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Axis II
    That's unreal. I dunno if I would trust it on my road bike even.
    did i say seatpost? no it was a STEM!! 68g stem...

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    Hi, can you tell us anything about new DT quick release system, any potential for weightweenies in those?
    It _could_ be missing link between bolt-ons and traditional quick releases...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by markom
    Hi, can you tell us anything about new DT quick release system, any potential for weightweenies in those?
    It _could_ be missing link between bolt-ons and traditional quick releases...
    This is a USE spin stix copy, with the availability to rotate the screwer freely without tightening.
    Exist in steel and titanium.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    did i say seatpost? no it was a STEM!! 68g stem...
    Ya, Schmolke had the 68g seatpost, AX Lightness had the 68g stem.

    Kinda scary looking; I wouldn't run it on an MTB. Maybe that is a prototype and the production stems won't have any visible voids.
    This space for rent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 20.100 FR
    This is a USE spin stix copy, with the availability to rotate the screwer freely without tightening.
    Exist in steel and titanium.
    Yes, I know it's copy of old design from early 90's. Some mfgr's have even had some sort ratcheting mechanisms before this but I'm interested whether DT's take on this would be worth their weight. If the lever is plastic (composite) weight could tolerable in ww kind of way...

  42. #42
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    Anyone else notice this suspect line in the carbon at the clamping area? May be nothing, but just something that caught my eye.

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    2006 Kona Leroi


    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider188a
    well just get your asses some juicy 7s and huck down a mountain. thoose v brakes will snap like my butt

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    Hey Nino, could you please let us know anything about those light rotors you posted???

    Thanks!

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    Don't forget about Specialized suing Stratos too. Terralogic vs. ID inertial valves. Stratos has a superior product that was patented & in use before Specialized but small companies like Stratos can't afford the risk of continuing to sell & fighting is very expensive. It seems obvioius that Specialized can only compete using their army of rich lawyers these days.

  45. #45
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    Are those Bontrager cranks CF or aluminum? What's up with the pedal insert on the non-drive side?

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    i finally found some sweet and ultralight cables: 27g/m

    pictured below exactly 100cm of "Nokon-like" outers and inner liner. the segments stick together unlike Nokon which are just one behind the other. these you can click together and unclick where you want. i should get samples soon and together with Powercordz inner "wires" these set the new standard for ultralight cables!

    Seems they are already on sale.
    has anyone used them?
    Cost is about USD85 for brake+shifter cable set

    Will it be a UPgrade or DOWNgrade to my current Nokon cable in many sense?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  47. #47
    STS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitakeng
    Seems they are already on sale.
    has anyone used them?
    Cost is about USD85 for brake+shifter cable set

    Will it be a UPgrade or DOWNgrade to my current Nokon cable in many sense?
    thanks for the information

    it will be an upgrade in the weight savings

    where did you buy it?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by STS
    thanks for the information

    it will be an upgrade in the weight savings

    where did you buy it?
    WW way,
    Will it be a downgrade in the performance though? Or about the same?

    I think some private exporter from Taiwan are selling online in JAPAN.

    Manufacturer's web does not show any info, so before I buy, I wanted to check the quality with you guys = expert!!

  49. #49
    Jan
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    ...........
    Last edited by Jan; 11-05-2006 at 01:43 AM.

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