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  1. #1
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    how much weight savings SRAM-Shimano

    How much weight can you save from going from XTR cassette, r. and f. derailleur, chain, crank, and controls to SRAM...

    I understand there would also be the major difference in weight of the various brakes, as Shimano makes you use their discs, but I am looking to possible upgrade my XT system to SRAM with some magura's or to XTR.... what kind of weight savings should I expect, would I be better off upgrading something else like a wheelset. (I have bontrager race disc). I am happy with the performance of my current XT drivetrain system, and am just checking out what weight savings and upgrades in performance their would be with either SRAM or XTR
    ---(cheap, light, strong)---
    pick two...

    I choose all 3!!!

  2. #2
    Jm.
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    Well, with the cassette you gain about 60 grams "upgrading" from an XTR to a sram PG990. I also find the lifespan of the PG990 to be pretty short comapared to shimano stuff.

    With the rear derailer, you only gain about 5-10 grams "upgrading" from XTR to the $200 X0 rear derailer, however if you are considering the X9, it's more like 15g heavier than the equivalent shimano derailer (XT).

    With the front shifters, if you run the X9 twist shifters, it's going to cost you about 40 grams compared to XT pods, but if you run the XO twist shifters, you can save about 70 grams or so compared to the shimano equivalent (XTR). X9 trigger shifters are about 300g though, about 50g heavier than shimano XT pods.

    Of course if you are thinking about dual control, that may change things a bit.

    The Shimano DuraAce/XTR chain is the same weight as the SRAM PC99 hollow pin, and I find it to be the most durable chain I've ever used.

    Front derailers are not significant enough, but watch out for the new shimano M760FD, it's heavier than the past models.

    Generally, SRAM stuff is now heavier than shimano. It used to be the other way around back in the days of the ESP 9.0SL derailer and shifters, but SRAMs stuff is heavier, I've personally weighed some of these things (shimano pods, shimano M760 cassette vs PG990 with same gear spread).

    If you run the SRAM X0 twist-shifters, SRAM X0 rear derailer, and PG990 cassette, and PC99 chain, you'll only gain a little weight over the equivalent shimano setup. If you run anything else, like a PG970, Sram X9, you'll gain considerable weight compared to the shimano equivalent.

    I find initial performance of SRAM stuff to be quite good, in some cases better than shimano, but I still find their long-term performance in many areas to be lacking.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  3. #3
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    dang... looks like SRAM is worse... I guess I'll just keep my XT and go upgrading slowly to XTR.... I thought SRAM was lighter because I've seen it on a whole bunch of weight-weenies.com bikes.
    ---(cheap, light, strong)---
    pick two...

    I choose all 3!!!

  4. #4
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moose8500
    dang... looks like SRAM is worse... I guess I'll just keep my XT and go upgrading slowly to XTR.... I thought SRAM was lighter because I've seen it on a whole bunch of weight-weenies.com bikes.
    Well, you won't have much of a weight penalty if you just switch to the Rocket shifters, and you'll save around 70 grams overall if you use the XO ~170g twist shifters with the XO ~210g rear derailer, although the cost for this is pretty outrageous, especially considering that the XO rear derailer is a little heavier than the XTR. Still, you'll save a little bit of weight, and if you keep other parts shimano (chain, cassette) you'll get the benefit of both.

    Even with the displays your XT shifters are lighter than X9, but take off the little indicators from LX or XT and you're down to about 222 grams, while the SRAM is around 300g.

    It's just that back in the old days sram made 120-130g shifters, derailers that came in around 200g or a little less, and people may buy new products based on that, even if they are heavier, because they have the perception that the sram stuff "must" be lighter because it was always so. Hopefully these weight gains mean that sram is using more metal-parts, like metal teeth detents in their shifters. The old plastic detents were what shot them in the foot, intial performance would be fine but as the plastic wore down they would get very sloppy, so if the weight increase has increased long term durability, that would definitely be a good thing...
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  5. #5
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    Sachs/SRAM

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Well, you won't have much of a weight penalty if you just switch to the Rocket shifters, and you'll save around 70 grams overall if you use the XO ~170g twist shifters with the XO ~210g rear derailer, although the cost for this is pretty outrageous, especially considering that the XO rear derailer is a little heavier than the XTR. Still, you'll save a little bit of weight, and if you keep other parts shimano (chain, cassette) you'll get the benefit of both.

    Even with the displays your XT shifters are lighter than X9, but take off the little indicators from LX or XT and you're down to about 222 grams, while the SRAM is around 300g.
    I use Sachs shifters (120 grams total for front/rear) and Sachs/SRAM Quartz rear der (198 grams lighter than X0): the way to go to get ultra-light drivetrain control and ders is e-bay: pick up some of this stuff for spare change (I bought my Sachs for $5 and 2 rear ders for $49), they are the lightest, work great and last a "lifetime". For the fron der pick up a XTR about 2000.

  6. #6
    MaLóŒ¢*size=
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    i use the lightest setup nowadays available:

    kmc x-10 chain
    dura ace 12-27 cassette
    20t granny
    xtr 2003 medium cage rear der.
    rocket 9v twisters

    how to improve this:
    new kmc x-10 sl new 2005 chain (still not available)
    sachs plasma or quartz 9v twister (very old and difficult to find and bad shifting compared to the rockets)
    alu cassette (real bs)
    the new dura ace rear der for triple (really light and without the issues of the dura ace standard and ultra-small cage)

  7. #7
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    well ...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaL�L
    i use the lightest setup nowadays available:


    sachs plasma or quartz 9v twister (very old and difficult to find and bad shifting compared to the rockets)

    hem ... sorry, besides the fact that you do not have the "lightest set up": do you own sachs shifters or you are just blabbing?

    The sachs twisters are actually flowless, I am using them on all my bikes. In my experience SRAM rockets work but they are not as "clean" and "crisp". You can find sachs if you patient enough both in 8 and 9 speed versions.

    Sachs made some of the best components until SRAM bought them out in, i think, 1998. For one year+ SRAM kept identical products just changing labels, then it decided to "improve" ... it took them years (circa 2003) to get a rear der that worked as well as the original sachs
    Last edited by Davide; 01-24-2005 at 01:56 PM.

  8. #8
    MaLóŒ¢*size=
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    yes, sachs quarz works much better than sram xo. Really sure...

  9. #9
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    You can find sachs if you patient enough both in 8 and 9 speed versions.

    Sachs made some of the best components until SRAM bought them out in, i think, 1998. For one year+ SRAM kept identical products just changing labels, then it decided to "improve" ... it took them years (circa 2003) to get a rear der that worked as well as the original sachs

    LOL...yeah, if your patient enough SRAM just might disown Sachs and Sachs just may buy some factories and start up production again.., then again, I might have a transform mutator in my garage...

    Yes, you may be lucky enough to find some used ones, or maybe even a new pair, after extensive searching, phone calls, scams, and a bit PITA...hunting for old products that are out of production is not easy usually, and most of the time it is difficult. If you are lucky enough to experience something different, then good for you, but it is not indicitive of the whole.

    Remember to pick some lotto numbers as you are searching for 9spd sachs shifters.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  10. #10
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    Bla bla bla

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.

    Remember to pick some lotto numbers as you are searching for 9spd sachs shifters.
    Nine speed Sachs where on e-bay two weeks ago, and one can find 9-speed Ritchey/Sachs quite often on e-bay.

    Of course it is faster to go get XO for the insane price of $200 rear der and $90 shifters, but in my book $260 less for similar performance and lighter weight (remember? this is a save some weight forum and my sachs combo is 64 grams less than XO) is worth a little bit of time looking around.

  11. #11
    MaLóŒ¢*size=
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    ritchey twisters are very easy and cheap to find on ebay...

  12. #12
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    I find this getting a bit silly

    Davide has a good point on the shifters...if you can easily obtain them...why not? I've used these shifters for years and they're simple, light and shift perfectly fine.

    The only drawbacks compared to X.0 shifters are the 1:2 Shimano gear ratio (which really isn't as practical as SRAM's 1:1), and the lack of delay. All expensive SRAM shifters have a slight delay built into them...something to do with the "SRS" mechanism, which - in my experience - reduces the amount of misshifts. Not a big issue, though.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Sachs/SRAM Quartz rear der (198 grams lighter than X0):
    So your quartz rear derailleur weighs 2 grams? I have an X.0 and it weighs 200g. This is on a digital scale with .5 g accuracy, not a quote off of a website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Of course it is faster to go get XO for the insane price of $200
    Again, where are you getting your info? An X.0 rear der is $120 at jenson. I picked up one off of e-bay for $65.

    If you don't like the stuff, fine, but don't go quoting things to someone who is looking for real information if you don't know what you are talking about.


    What everyone is right about, Moose, is the weight of the shifters. My X.9 triggers weigh 290g for the pair. The nicest thing I've found about them is how they shift - up and down shifts are done with just the thumb instead of using thumb and forefinger. The downside is that you are locked into both the shifters and the rear derailleur since they use the 1:1 actuation.

  14. #14
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Nine speed Sachs where on e-bay two weeks ago.
    How's that time machine working for you?

    Look, it's a shot in the dark, and you know this.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  15. #15
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric

    The only drawbacks compared to X.0 shifters are the 1:2 Shimano gear ratio (which really isn't as practical as SRAM's 1:1).
    That is marketing BS. Because SRAM uses plastic detents in their shifters, they simply NEED to use 1:1 actuation to keep the slop under control, however given enough time they still get sloppy. If SRAM was using metal parts like shimano, they could use 1:2 and keep weight down with smaller parts. Since the metal detents in shimano shifters do not wear over time like plastic SRAM "teeth", it's a non-issue and my pick for longivity goes to the Shimano stuff, as I find the SRAM plastic teeth still wear out over time. 1:1 is simply the only way that SRAM can keep their wear problem somewhat under control, because tolerances are not as important as the parts get bigger....
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  16. #16
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    I don't agree there

    I've used everything under the sun, and I must say that while shifting is definitely a tad slower with the 1:1 ratio (stands to reason, I guess), I find shifting is slightly more accurate. Part of this is due to the delay in modern SRAM shifters, as I already pointed out.

    Regarding the shifting detents...yeah...in theory they wear. I've never had issues with this, and some of my twist shifters have 60,000 km or more on them.

  17. #17
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    8 speed

    by the way if one wants to save weight the way to go is 8 speed not 9 ... 8 speed sachs are on e-bay right now for $5.

  18. #18
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    8 speed sachs???

    in that case, you can buy the sram srt 800 x-ray 8speed. 110gr........

  19. #19
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    Good point, I am quoting retail and I am sure that by waiting long enough you can find a XO on e-bay for $65

    But please cool off, I am not bashing anything, just trying to suggest to the guy a very cheap wat to get ultra-light components. My Sachs Quartz after tuning is now at 197 grams, a related post (a bit out of date) is

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...5681#post75681

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Davide]Good point, I am quoting retail and I am sure that by waiting long enough you can find a XO on e-bay for $65

    But please cool off, I am not bashing anything, just trying to suggest to the guy a very cheap wat to get ultra-light components. My Sachs Quartz after tuning is now at 197 grams, a related post (a bit out of date) is
    QUOTE]

    I am not heated in any way, you are just not giving even remotely accurate information. I can't even find it on the web for more than $130, regardless of its $190 list price (who in the world pays list price anymore with Jenson, Pricepoint, Nashbar and Speedgoat around?). And again, the X.0 weighs 200 grams without any kind of 'tuning' involved. If someone were to start drilling holes in it I would think it would be rather simple to lose 3 grams.

  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=tshrey]
    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    Good point, I am quoting retail and I am sure that by waiting long enough you can find a XO on e-bay for $65

    But please cool off, I am not bashing anything, just trying to suggest to the guy a very cheap wat to get ultra-light components. My Sachs Quartz after tuning is now at 197 grams, a related post (a bit out of date) is
    QUOTE]

    I am not heated in any way, you are just not giving even remotely accurate information. I can't even find it on the web for more than $130, regardless of its $190 list price (who in the world pays list price anymore with Jenson, Pricepoint, Nashbar and Speedgoat around?). And again, the X.0 weighs 200 grams without any kind of 'tuning' involved. If someone were to start drilling holes in it I would think it would be rather simple to lose 3 grams.
    You are just being very anal-retentive and missing what I am trying to say (which is simply that you can buy a lighter set up than XO for around $40), but to follow up on the anal-ritentivness :

    the Sachs BEFORE tunig is 206 so it is just 6 grams (six ok!) from the XO, I am not drilling anything but just putting on aluminum bolts to shave off 8 grams or so.

    For the XO the retail price IS $200 (http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=5111)
    which does not mean, as I already conceeded, that one cannot find it heavily discounted (or slighlty by 10% so on the same page) Speedgoat quoted suggested retail is at 190 but is sold at 130.

    So ... llighten up a bit

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