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  1. #1
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    Floid Landis (as Armstrong) caught by doping...

    Itīs just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...


    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news3

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaLoL
    Itīs just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...


    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news3

    When was Armstrong caught? I guess I missed that one.

    There's still the B sample that has to be analyzed.

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    yes, you missed it...

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    who's Floid? ..... Pink Floid?

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    Please post a link to the Armsrong article or point us in the right direction.

    Me thinks you are full of crap though . . . . . . .
    Thanks to www.fortframes.com

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    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by MaLoL
    Itīs just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...


    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news3


    toooooooooooooolbox

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    I think it's funny how this thread or one similar like it is on evey forum I've read today. At least in Passion and General Discussion it's a bit more fitting, but on the WW board? C'mon, did his doping do something to cut rotaional mass of his wheels or something? Did he dope a few grams off of his deraileur? If you've got something to add, stupid or not, why not just post in one of those threads in a more appropriate forum, or just go ot roadbikereview.com...

    BM
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  8. #8
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    Armstrong was never caught doping

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    Again you show how STUPID you really are....

    It might be sad on Flyod, but we need to wait for the "B" sample.
    Does not look good though.

    Amstrong NEVER tested POSTIVE for anything.

    Ltet's last year's Vuelta? Roberto Heras (Spaniard) gets busted for doping?
    Spanish riders kicked off phonak (Santiago Perez) for doping? Oscar Sevilla thrown out for doping!

    Vuelta dis-invites Comunidad Valenciana (spanish team)

    Spain is the haven for dopers!
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    Also if an American does not give SPAIN a gift of 28min(?) oscar does not sniff the podium!

    So back to Bull Fighting and Running with bulls (God, I want to try that!!)for you guys I guess!
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    As information comes out it is being revealed that Floyd apparently didn't have HIGH amounts of Testosterone in his urine, just out of proprotion ratios. From ESPN:

    Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.

    Living in the age of instant information is interesting to say the least. Folks everywhere are being quoted talking about this and they certainly do not have all the information.
    (Perhaps Eustice as well....) All I know is that I only know what is being leaked out through the media and then wildly and often ignorantly speculated upon in this forum.

    In the ESPN News video also on that page, Eustice points out that every rider that has contested an accusation of testosterone doping has been exonerated...
    And as some former cyclists have pointed out; it makes no sense to use testosterone when there are so many more undetectable "products" that can be used....
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    Please......

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  14. #14
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    Testosterone...

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    And as some former cyclists have pointed out; it makes no sense to use testosterone when there are so many more undetectable "products" that can be used....
    sorry Gio - i just saw the news on swiss television:

    Testosterone is known to help regeneration of muscles. small amounts are sufficient to have really big effect in short time and if taken care can't be found the next evening. there was a scientist of the swiss dope-lab explaining what testosterone can do. it's not to enhance his power but it could have helped him big time to regain strenght faster. he obviously had a VERY BAD day before just to shine on the next day...strange, really strange. on the other hand it would be real stupid to use it knowing that you get tested the next day. that's like going at 200 miles through a radar and hoping nothing would happen

    so this might also allow speculation for other people trying to do harm to Landis.

    anyway - fact is testosterone would have had a positive effect in this case.

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    slow day at work today?



    Time will tell - I'll hold my thoughts until I read facts and not before.

    KMan

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    Work? yah right....

    Yep, time will tell...
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    don't they all take something these pro cyclists?

    have you read "LA confidential" or other books on the matter?
    to my opinion, it is like the tabocco company boss saying with all the confidence in the world that tabacco isn't additive...
    is it 99% of the pro using dope or the other way around????
    can someone may believe that Amstrong didn't use anything to win 7 tours...
    look at the other recent tour winners (Pantani, Ulrich...). for some reason, lance had a talent to get away with it, like a special protection plan or so.
    sometimes suspicions are better than proof.
    tallk with retired pros, they'll tell you all about the doping culture.
    read the numberous books on the subjet.
    but simply, ride 130 miles flat out, climb 15.000 feet positive denivellation, sprint, fall, time trail.... for 3 weeks and drink plain water, than win the f*kin' thing... you are SUPERMAN.
    you are a MALOLO...

  18. #18
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    Oh no, not the one who had to copy Dirt Boy's website's name again....
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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider188a
    well just get your asses some juicy 7s and huck down a mountain. thoose v brakes will snap like my butt

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaLoL
    Itīs just surrealistic than a american riders can win so many tours, no we have a spanish winner again. The frenchies will have to wait. Good luck at baseball, but this is not your sport, sorry...


    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news3
    Yup, you've just tested positive for being a dope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider188a
    well just get your asses some juicy 7s and huck down a mountain. thoose v brakes will snap like my butt

  20. #20
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    I was never surprised by Landis' resurrection after that bad day. It was not a bad "legs" day, just nutricianal. He lost 10min up the last hill, unwillingly saving a lot of muscle fatigue. It hurt, but he was really doing a relaxed recovering ride, setting himself up for a better next day. Unwillingly.

    I'd be interested to know what would happen to us mortal's testosterone levels having just accomplished one of the greatest sporting performances in any sport, ever. Does it not at all respond to mental input? After such a ride, do you expect to deliver a "standard" sample? Does one do it without especially good form of the day?

    I'd like to see test. tests done on a racing driver once after a lost race, and once after championship securing voctory. Will they be the same?

    If they (the French) can't find anything on Lance with hundreds of samples to fiddle with, there's nothing there. Hey, the guy was a pro World Champion the year that Jan Ullrich won the Amateurs, why be surprised if later in his carreer he degrades all other cyclists to Amateurs?
    Last edited by Cloxxki; 07-27-2006 at 10:36 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki

    I'd be interested to know what would happen to us mortal's testosterone levels having just accomplished one of the greatest sporting performances in any sport, ever. Does it not at all respond to mental input? After such a ride, do you expect to deliver a "standard" sample? Does one do it without especially good form of the day?
    They're saying his testosterone level was extremely low, that is strange. The epitestosterone level does not rise in unison with test. when you take in test. from the outside. Usually if you're doping with testosterone, the levels will be very high compared with epitest. So his epitestosterone levels must be super extremely loooooow. We haven't heard the last of this one.

  22. #22
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    For me all the high level riders are doped.

  23. #23
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    [QUOTE=DIRT BOY]As information comes out it is being revealed that Floyd apparently didn't have HIGH amounts of Testosterone in his urine, just out of proprotion ratios. From ESPN:
    Cycling analyst John Eustice thinks Floyd Landis' testosterone test could be a false positive. Landis' testosterone levels were low; just the ratio was off. Landis' cortisone shots or beer drinking could affect that, Eustice said on The Dan Patrick Show.

    Beer drinking?...Hmmm?? Works for me.
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    Let's fist wait for the "B" sample....

    then remember NO cyclist has ever been found guilty for testosterone doping. Hundreds of cases have eben dismissed after endrocin tests.

    I just fine it hard to believe with the whole Operation Puerto, once rider, any rider whoud take a chance for one stage knowing if you win you will be tested.

    If he IS gulity, it's not a black eye for American riders, it's another BLACK eye for the TDF and cycling as a sport that we all love.....

    Now if Spain whould adpot doping laws like everyone else, this help help in trying to clean the sport up. BUT there will ALWAYS be cheaters!!!
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    Adding Some Rational Thoughts to an Irrational Discussion

    Taxes, root canals, wet socks in cold weather and Ted Kennedy. These are some of the things I truly despite. I am getting ready to add ESPN to the mix.

    This is an out of control news media (which if you have ever see the news or read books such as "Bias," know this is rather redundant). When Floyd won, they mentioned his victory for about 25 seconds, twice. When he tested positive, it is an hourly story complete with family interviews and an expose.

    If that does not raise an eyebrow or two, add this to the mix. A cycling analysis went into some detail regarding the case. ESPN reported "doping" and "high levels of testosterone" in big, bold letters AT THE EXACT MOMENT the analysis was clearly stating "It is not high levels of testosterone; rather an elevated testosterone/epitestosterone ratio."

    They completed the "expose" by going into detail about how this drags American cycling and the TDF down etc.

    At what point do people start taking a stance against such irresponsible reporting? What needs to happen in order for accountability and accuracy to be the norm?

    This is not the first time BY ANY MEANS that ESPN has done a "guilty until proven innocent and they will never be proven innocent because it is not a great story" story. They have become as slanted, biased and twisted as CNN. It is an outright disgrace.

    ESPN a sports news outlet? No. They are the National Inquirer of Sports - teen age girls who love to gossip but forgot the impact their words have on others.

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    From that pic he could use a few shots of Testosterone!
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    Now THAT'S Funny!!

    Like George running around "I was in the pool, I was in the POOL!

    KMan



    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    From that pic he could use a few shots of Testosterone!

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    Doping

    The biggest dope scandel ever will come out of Spain, and we thought they all were just great climbers. Hummmmm!

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    You mean like Iban Mayo? That guy is stealiing a pay check! Iban couldn't climb the Key Biscayne Bridge here in Miami or Mt. Trashmore in Broward County and ofcourse nothing in the TDF......

    Every year this is is supposedly a TDF challanger and the last few he just quits!

    And yes, The BIGGEST doping scandal ever will be from SPAIN that will dwarf the Festina Affair!

    BUT its sad for ALL of Cycling and it's something NO cyclist want s too see....
    Last edited by DIRT BOY; 07-29-2006 at 11:12 AM.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMan
    Like George running around "I was in the pool, I was in the POOL!

    KMan
    LMFAO!
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    Climbing in Florida

    Dirt Boy

    Peopole are surpreised when you tell them there is some fair climbing in florida, try Clearmount, Sugar Loaf Mt. not the TDF for sure but good stuff for Florida

    Pro Level

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMan
    Like George running around "I was in the pool, I was in the POOL!

    KMan
    LMAO!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider188a
    well just get your asses some juicy 7s and huck down a mountain. thoose v brakes will snap like my butt

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    From that pic he could use a few shots of Testosterone!
    At the very least!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider188a
    well just get your asses some juicy 7s and huck down a mountain. thoose v brakes will snap like my butt

  34. #34
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    Here's another article with a doctor's explanation...

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/28/landis.lkl/index.html

    Landis: Tour win due to 'heart,' not drugs
    Tour de France winner defends himself against doping allegation.

    Tour de France champion Floyd Landis said Friday that his victory in the world's most-famous bike race last week had nothing to do with cheating.

    It was "heart and determination and 15 years of hard work" that paid off, Landis told CNN's "Larry King Live" in an interview Friday from Madrid, Spain.

    The 30-year-old American tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone -- a possible sign of the use of steroids -- after an astounding comeback to win stage 17 in the French Alps, just a day after a disastrous showing that all but knocked him out of contention. (Watch Landis tell King why this wasn't really a positive test result -- 3:52)

    "I'd love to continue in this sport. It's been my passion and my dream, and it's a beautiful sport," Landis said. "I would love to keep racing, and I'm going to do my best to defend my dignity and my innocence."

    Landis reiterated to King a claim he made at a news conference earlier in the day: He has never taken performance-enhancing drugs and he has no idea why the test indicated his testosterone levels were abnormal.

    "This is not a doping case, but a natural occurrence," the 30-year-old American cyclist told reporters at the news conference. "I declare convincingly and categorically that my winning the Tour de France has been exclusively due to many years of training and my complete devotion to cycling."

    After the 17th stage, Landis gave a urine sample that showed the ratio of testosterone to another hormone, epitestosterone, in his system was abnormally high. Specific results haven't been released, but the World Anti-Doping Agency categorizes a ratio of 4-to-1 or higher as an adverse result.

    A high ratio can indicate that a competitor is using anabolic steroids, according to the anti-doping agency. But the ratio can naturally vary among people, and Landis said his normal levels have never been recorded.

    "It's not a positive test in the same criteria of finding something" introduced from outside the body, Landis said. "What this test shows is an abnormal ratio of two naturally occurring substances."

    Landis conceded that the storybook nature of his win has increased suspicion. Competing with an injured hip and thyroid condition, Landis had a disastrous ride the day before he made up 8 minutes on the leader and put himself in position to win.

    Despite the circumstances, there is nothing suspicious about the victory, Landis said.

    "It was my dream. And when you get to that point when you're inspired, and you're somewhere you've always dreamt of being and nothing else matters, you can push yourself to limits you couldn't push yourself to before," he said.

    Landis was tested eight other times during the race -- six times before the abnormal test result and twice afterward -- and he has not been told that any of those tests had unusual outcomes, he said.

    Regardless, Landis' physician, Dr. Brent Kay, said that testosterone would have done nothing to help Landis win the race.

    "Testosterone is a body-building steroid that that builds mass over long-term use of weeks, months or even years," Kay said. "It's crazy to think that a Tour de France professional cyclist would be using testosterone, particularly in the middle of a race. It's a joke."

    Also, the abnormal ratio could mean a low epitestosterone level rather than a high testosterone level, Kay said.

    Landis had been taking two medications during the race -- injections of cortisone to deal with a chronic hip injury and a thyroid hormone used to treat a condition known as Hashimoto's disease, with which he was diagnosed two years ago.

    Kay said it appears unlikely that either medication could have caused the result.

    Landis had a waiver to take cortisone; the thyroid medication did not require a waiver because it is not considered a performance-enhancing substance.

    Landis said he will request that a second sample, taken at the same time as the one with abnormal levels, be tested. If the results are confirmed, he could be stripped of his Tour de France victory and face disciplinary action from the sport's governing body, the International Cycling Union.

    In the meantime, his cycling team, Phonak, has pulled Landis from the racing circuit and announced that he will be dismissed from the team if the second test confirms the results of the first.

    SCREW THE FRENCH Everyone wants to come down on Floyd. I for one believe his innocence regardless of the results. The French as well as others tried and tried to crucify Lance and American cyclists in general.

    In this article a good point is made. Floyds other tests did not show elevated levels of testosterone. STage 17 shows slightly elevated levels. As the doctor points out, a shot of steroids isn't going to boost your performance in one instance or stage. Steroids have to be used over a long period as the person has to workout to build muscle thus taking advantage of the steroid. If all other stages showed no elevation, how is one shot of steroids going to help a racer for one stage. Steroids don't work that way. Do the research.

    I don't believe Landis cheated. There is no possible way testosterone with that low of a ratio 4:1 is going to make Floyd perform as well as he did. Unless I'm lacking, it's just common sense.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Futurepath
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/28/landis.lkl/index.html


    SCREW THE FRENCH Everyone wants to come down on Floyd. I for one believe his innocence regardless of the results. The French as well as others tried and tried to crucify Lance and American cyclists in general.

    In this article a good point is made. Floyds other tests did not show elevated levels of testosterone. STage 17 shows slightly elevated levels. As the doctor points out, a shot of steroids isn't going to boost your performance in one instance or stage. Steroids have to be used over a long period as the person has to workout to build muscle thus taking advantage of the steroid. If all other stages showed no elevation, how is one shot of steroids going to help a racer for one stage. Steroids don't work that way. Do the research.

    I don't believe Landis cheated. There is no possible way testosterone with that low of a ratio 4:1 is going to make Floyd perform as well as he did. Unless I'm lacking, it's just common sense.
    amigo,
    we live in Europe and people generaly speaking regards performance and personnality much, but really much more than where the guy come from.
    we love, just like you, guys like Vinokourov while most don't really know prescisely where he is from. I think most people like Landis, and even more because of his weakiness during the tour and the fact that he came back really strong when he won the stage with a 5:45 on second. Lance wasn't liked by most over here since he was recognize as a great champion but poor human being (cold, arrogant, etc...).
    What is simply decieving for the mass is to face the fact that probably all pro cyclist use doping, the general feeling on that matter in the news over here, in Switzerland is sadness. But really, Lance, Hinault, Hamilton, Hincapie, Fignon.... who really care?!
    they are all on the same boat, they just have to do it and not get caught.
    their time is short to make glory and dollars, the pressure from team, media is very high on them....
    How could it be different in the Pro level.....
    It got nothin to do with yankie or euro's here, just the remaining naivety of some people that keep believing the impossible....
    Yes human being is fondamentaly cheater by nature, just like you and I.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Futurepath
    In this article a good point is made. Floyds other tests did not show elevated levels of testosterone. STage 17 shows slightly elevated levels. As the doctor points out, a shot of steroids isn't going to boost your performance in one instance or stage. Steroids have to be used over a long period as the person has to workout to build muscle thus taking advantage of the steroid. If all other stages showed no elevation, how is one shot of steroids going to help a racer for one stage. Steroids don't work that way. Do the research.

    I don't believe Landis cheated. There is no possible way testosterone with that low of a ratio 4:1 is going to make Floyd perform as well as he did. Unless I'm lacking, it's just common sense.
    as i pointed out already above:

    doping experts say that testosterone helps speed up recovery. sometimes just attaching a plaster with testosterone to your test!cle is enough for significant help. but you can also use tablets or other forms. experts say this would have made absolutely sense in this case since he had to recover big time from the day before. it's just that he has taken too much! usually small amounts fade away within the next day and can't be measured. so testosterone isn't to make you faster but to speed up recovery.

    i'll let the judges speak but it's pretty strange what happened.

    and NO - this has absolutely nothing to do with americans or french or whatever nation. this is about a clean sport without cheating. Ullrich and Basso and all the others get treated the same way. it's sad and cyclers seem to be in the spotlight. where's all the other athletes that were on that spanish list? from what i remember they found about 200 names in that list from all different sports. athletics etc. where's all the other guys? you just hear from the cyclists. there was a huge scandal a couple of years ago in italian soccer...you don't hear anything about that anymore as well.

  37. #37
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    I think he had the least amount of recovering to do from the day before. Yes, he rode 10min longer over the last hill than the others, but at a casual pace. It hurt for him, due to dehydration. Look how much he drank the next day, it was not going to happen to him a second time.
    If you've been riding for some time, everyone's come across a true hunger bonk. I for one do not feel extra tired the day after one, if I have been allowed near some full plates of fries and meat, at least. No veggies after I've bonked please, need real food.
    I had a few races where I got too cold to perform. Heartrate stayed low as with bonking, and afterwards I was not really tired. The ride itself took forever and felt like hell. I ate the finish banner though.

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    After the Operation Puerto fiasco, why would ANY rider, espcially a tour favortire take a chance and dope for 1 stage to get to get time back?

    I just can't see Floyd or any TOP 10 rider taking a chance like this, after the whole Spanish bust.
    Look doping seems to be part of the sport and might always will, but this race to take a chance on one satge, knowing if you WIN you will be tested!

    That's what gets me thinking it's a mistake. Again stranger things have happened and these guys are desperate at times.

    But if he was only going to dope for one stage, why win and risk being caught?

    i don't know. I hope he is not for all of cycling. Let's also rember, the test for tesosterone is flawed and cannot be proven if it's his naturally or synthetic. They SHOULD use a test that can tell you. If it's nautral, then he is clean. Synthetic, then he is doping and should as ANY rider face a lifetime ban!

    The test they use ONLY, ONLT shows if your levels are out of wack and that it.
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  39. #39
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    Ignorant question....

    So, if testosterone levels were tested earlier (eight times in the tour?) and were found to be within normal limits why the rise on the last day of the stage? It's my understanding that these levels stay quite stable and fluctuate very little. Unless??
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axis II
    So, if testosterone levels were tested earlier (eight times in the tour?) and were found to be within normal limits why the rise on the last day of the stage? It's my understanding that these levels stay quite stable and fluctuate very little. Unless??
    What evidence is there that his testosterone levels rose? All that I've heard so far is that they were slightly below normal, through John Eustice of ESPN. Maybe if the anti-doping agency would actually present their findings since they've already run Floyd through the mud, we would all know whether or not his testosterone was abnormally high or not. From what I've heard, the only thing unusual was that his epitestosterone levels were low. I believe that there are probably many possible reasons his E levels would be low, and it's pretty amateurish to just assume it's a result of doping.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    What evidence is there that his testosterone levels rose? All that I've heard so far is that they were slightly below normal, through John Eustice of ESPN. Maybe if the anti-doping agency would actually present their findings since they've already run Floyd through the mud, we would all know whether or not his testosterone was abnormally high or not. From what I've heard, the only thing unusual was that his epitestosterone levels were low. I believe that there are probably many possible reasons his E levels would be low, and it's pretty amateurish to just assume it's a result of doping.
    c'mon guy - those guys doing the tests aren't kids. these are scientists and specialized in testing. they know exactly what's normal and what's not. as Axis II said above, Floyds levels were ok in all other tests but not at this day. strange, really strange. now Floyd tries to get a spanish (!) doctors certificate saying his levels are abnormal which would be the reason for this....no more questions on my side!! if his levels are abnormal then why didn't he have such a certificate before? they get tested throughout the year, not just during the TdF. other riders have certificates as well but they have them BEFORE and not after beeing tested. strange, really strange.

    and no one is running him through the mud other than those cheap, crap newspapers. you know that kind of press who is just about cheap info in big and bold letters...regular newspapers and also television tells the story how it is and so far he hasn't been proved guilty. BUT it's hard to believe he drank pure water the night before.
    Last edited by nino; 07-29-2006 at 10:06 PM.

  42. #42
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    Strange as it all may be, even an athelete deserves to be treated as being innocent until proven guilty. Nothing should have been leaked to the press until Landis' second sample gave the same results and/or Landis stripped of his title. If this turns out to be a wild -goose chase somebody ought to lose his f*ckng job.

    The whole matter leaves me quite irritated: not the fact that yet another cyclist has been caught (which remains to be seen IMHO!), but the fact that the cycling press, yes the cycling community as a whole is circling around like a bunch of vultures. Like the starter of this thread. In 150 years ago we would have already burnt Landis at the stake......

    @Scapin: I can understand such an attitude after so many dissapointments over the years, but really: there's a simple explanation for why the pros so, so much faster than us mere mortals: they're pros. They've been training and winning since they were (young) children. Their diet, lifestyle, body, yes even mindset have been shaped over 15-20 years to do only one thing: ride bikes. For those of us on the forum who race, we know what a busy season is like (outside of the full time job & quality time needed with the family). Now imagine training 3-4 times more, and that only during the off-season.

    See what I'm getting at?

  43. #43
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    Pro's like to ride so much, and want to win so bad, that they do everything to not have to get a real job and be able to ride all day, every day. I can't be bothered to ride by myself even on decent trails, but these folks need to be restricted by trainers to not over-train.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    c'mon guy - those guys doing the tests aren't kids. these are scientists and specialized in testing. they know exactly what's normal and what's not. as Axis II said above, Floyds levels were ok in all other tests but not at this day. strange, really strange.
    I'm not a kid either; I have a phd in chemistry. I know medeival logic when I see it. These scientists observe a single datapoint that is consistent with testosterone doping, and PRESTO! Floyd's a doper. Well, what else is it consistent with? It's also consistent with consuming ethanol. The authors of this article made an interesting statement in their paper on the effects of alcohol on T/E ratios in athletes:

    "In one of our doping-control activities, urine samples were frequently obtained from a Swedish athlete at irregular time intervals. An increased ratio between testosterone and
    epitestesterone in urine was observed occasionally, and all these increases were found to have been preceded by intake of ethanol. This motivated us to study whether ethanol
    consumption can affect this ratio."

    What more do you need to know to realize that measuring the T/E ratio is not an absolute indicator that an athlete has doped? Clearly, the ratio can be affected by something as mundane as alcohol consumption. What else can affect it? Who knows. I'm sure that the clowns at WADA don't know. They just seem to want the easy answer. Unfortunately, it's not all black and white. They're telling us that they're protecting the sport of bicycling against doping. Well, they aren't doing a very good job if their test methods are flawed (the epo test is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, btw), and if as a result they are suspending riders who have never doped. All they're doing is adding to the problem.

  45. #45
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    you're the man they need...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    I'm not a kid either; I have a phd in chemistry. I know medeival logic when I see it. These scientists observe a single datapoint that is consistent with testosterone doping, and PRESTO! Floyd's a doper. Well, what else is it consistent with? It's also consistent with consuming ethanol. The authors of this article made an interesting statement in their paper on the effects of alcohol on T/E ratios in athletes:

    "In one of our doping-control activities, urine samples were frequently obtained from a Swedish athlete at irregular time intervals. An increased ratio between testosterone and
    epitestesterone in urine was observed occasionally, and all these increases were found to have been preceded by intake of ethanol. This motivated us to study whether ethanol
    consumption can affect this ratio."

    What more do you need to know to realize that measuring the T/E ratio is not an absolute indicator that an athlete has doped? Clearly, the ratio can be affected by something as mundane as alcohol consumption. What else can affect it? Who knows. I'm sure that the clowns at WADA don't know. They just seem to want the easy answer. Unfortunately, it's not all black and white. They're telling us that they're protecting the sport of bicycling against doping. Well, they aren't doing a very good job if their test methods are flawed (the epo test is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, btw), and if as a result they are suspending riders who have never doped. All they're doing is adding to the problem.
    you must be right - those guys don't know a sh!t about doping. all the other tests and all other athletes didn't have any irregularities yet you come out and know better? you're the man

  46. #46
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    I agree that it's stupid to come forward with a name before settling it all, B-sample, defence by the athlete, literature study, etc.
    The UCI (I know, not WADA) is all about taking the usual, and putting it in the law. Like MTB's which used to all have 26" wheels, they made that the law. Road bikes had narrow tires, so they made that the law. Many roadies like to sit waaaay back with their seat, so....

    If would have been interesting to note whether a high epitest./test. ratio is even helping to win races. If it is, why isn't everyone taking pre-ride beers?

  47. #47
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    having a beer with sprinter Justin Gatlin??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    I agree that it's stupid to come forward with a name before settling it all, B-sample, defence by the athlete, literature study, etc.
    The UCI (I know, not WADA) is all about taking the usual, and putting it in the law. Like MTB's which used to all have 26" wheels, they made that the law. Road bikes had narrow tires, so they made that the law. Many roadies like to sit waaaay back with their seat, so....

    If would have been interesting to note whether a high epitest./test. ratio is even helping to win races. If it is, why isn't everyone taking pre-ride beers?
    maybe Floyd and 100m Sprint world record holder Justin Gattlin drank a beer together? both tested positive with testosterone.....or maybe it's just the Buds Light that has this special effect

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMan


    Time will tell - I'll hold my thoughts until I read facts and not before.

    KMan
    I couldn't agree more.

    I haven't really commented on any of the forums I frequent about floyd because the facts are so minimal at the moment that I see no point.

    I am actually not a Floyd fan (as a cyclist) but I respect him like any other person to know he ought to be given a chance and let all the information flow before we pass judgment.
    Trev!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    you must be right - those guys don't know a sh!t about doping. all the other tests and all other athletes didn't have any irregularities yet you come out and know better? you're the man
    As a matter of fact, they do not know **** about doping. A lot of criterias used are later proven to be pulled out of their collective asses.

    This is a business - not science.

    Also - why do you keep mising the point that an abnormal ratio is not equivalent to a "high testosterone"? There is two way to get an elevated ratio - add one, or subtract other.

  50. #50
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    The reality of it is that testing for banned substance use is nowhere near as foolproof or conclusive as WADA, the IOC or UCI would like the world to think. This has been shown time and time again by people falsely accused, banned, and later having their bans withdrawn.

    On the other hand there's probably boatloads of dopers, considering enough atheletes get caught and simply confess. This highlights the existence of more flaws in the system: how were these guys able to get away with it for so long in the first place?

    To me it appears there is no conclusive evidence Floyd Landis illegally boosted his testosterone levels, and no evidence has been presented as such either. If or when Landis is formally banned by the UCI, only then can we as the public make any judgements about his alleged doping, as the UCI won't ban him on the basis of one single result.

    Until then screaming "Floid Landis caught by doping (as Armstrong)" is indeed just pulling stuff out of your @ss.

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