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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    maybe Floyd and 100m Sprint world record holder Justin Gattlin drank a beer together? both tested positive with testosterone.....or maybe it's just the Buds Light that has this special effect
    It's normal to get drunk after a crisis for dehydration and before a climbing stage...

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric
    @Scapin: I can understand such an attitude after so many dissapointments over the years
    Exactly. I'm unbelieving.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    maybe Floyd and 100m Sprint world record holder Justin Gattlin drank a beer together? both tested positive with testosterone.....or maybe it's just the Buds Light that has this special effect
    supposedly it was amstel light

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloxxki
    If they (the French) can't find anything on Lance with hundreds of samples to fiddle with, there's nothing there.
    Actually, they did.
    It was tested positive from EPO on a 99 sample, with a 2004 technique. The problem is that there was not another sample left to make a second test.
    Common Armstrong was a friend of Dr Ferrari, notorious for his drugs.

    I'm French, and this has no impact on my beliefs about pro sport, because of the nationality of the pro : All pro-athletes DO use doping. Common, open your eyes !

    It is especially clear in road cyclism, where bad fitness can't be made up by technique. There was an article by a doctor at cyclingnews just before the start of the tour, that explained everything. In cycling they use:
    1- testosterone patch on the crotch at night
    2- growth hormone
    These 2 are for the muscles. Low quantity everyday so that it looks normal
    3- EPO, to get just under the UCI limit
    This increase oxygene use capacity
    4-auto-transfusion (effect for 3 weeks, done just before the start of a big tour)

    Doping is especially clear on the track to. I'm sure that the famous French soccer player Zidane use auto-transfusion too.

    There use to be some doping in MTB too. When the euro (french inculded) started to kick american ass because they had the "road culture" = use doping. Now that money has left MTB, i think most of the guys are clean.
    Put money back in MTB, and doping will rise again.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20.100 FR
    Actually, they did.
    It was tested positive from EPO on a 99 sample, with a 2004 technique. The problem is that there was not another sample left to make a second test.
    .
    Baloney. The problem was that they were using a test method that had never been qualified. Check out the EPO test method on WADA's site. Does it say anywhere that it's ok to let the urine sample sit around for 5 years? Don't think so. I believe they say that you need to start working on it within hours of collection, in large part because EPO is not particularly stable and it quickly degrades. The results from the tests on Armstrong's sample were complete bunk. Oh, and the fact that a French tabloid was paying for the tests doesn't exactly make them any more believable, at least not to me.
    Last edited by Fat Elvis; 07-31-2006 at 03:32 PM.

  6. #56
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    That '99 sample in 2005 would probably show "positive" on a pregnancy test too. While we all know Lance was already sterile in '99 :-)

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    Oh, and the fact that a French tabloid was paying for the tests doesn't exactly make them any more believable, at least not to me.
    This is not true.
    The test was made public by "l'equipe", French most famous sport journal, and pretty serious.
    This is the journal that created the tour de France, and still get a lot from it.
    Nothing in common with some (english) tabloid
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhsavery
    supposedly it was amstel light
    An Amstel Light with a shot of Testosterone maybe? Hmmm????
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Also - why do you keep mising the point that an abnormal ratio is not equivalent to a "high testosterone"? There is two way to get an elevated ratio - add one, or subtract other.
    Or just use some stuff that can hide other doping substances, only slightly modifying testosterone ratios.

    Floyd doctor can not be trusted as is statment is false. Testosterone is usefull even during the tour to protect muscle mass.

    All this pro are doped. That's it. And it will never change as long as there is a lot of money involved.

    They should put the medical names on the jerseys as sponsorts, so that we really now wich product is better !
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    Fro you that think the french are out to get the americans...

    at the expense of thier greatest sporting event you are NUTS! You don't realize the money and pride the TDF brings to France and the exposure it brings to the country. I have never had a desire to visit France due the how I heard americans are treated there. After having my wife and others visit there many time and have explained WHY some, some americans are not liked I can see why .

    The more I watch the TDF the more I want to spend tme in Paris and Provance!(?)
    Having the Champ DQ fro drugs would hurt there race big time and it's not good long-term for the TDF or cycling.

    I bet 90% of you who hate "the French" have never met one. Look I am sure there are mnay Frech people that I woulod not like and that includes MANY AMERICANs, Spainards, Germans, Italians, Arabs, etc! If you are a a-hole, you are a a-hole no matter WHAT your nationality or race!

    Now if Floyd is found guilty afetr all this and truly cannot defend these allegations, then I will right him off and any other scumbag that cheats!

    but at the same time like 20.100 FR says, we might as well right off 75-80% of athletes in all sports as drug use is there.

    Maybe Zidane had a test shot/patch before his match with italy and that aggression caused him to head-butt an Italian player and probaly cost France big time in the WC !!!!!
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  11. #61
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    Synthetic Testosterone Found?

    I dunno, it aint looking good for Floyd. You decide:

    Tests performed on Floyd Landis’s initial urine sample showed that some of the testosterone in Landis’s body came from an external source and was not naturally produced by his own system, according to a person at the International Cycling Union with knowledge of the results.
    That finding contradicts what Landis has claimed in his defense since the disclosure last week that he tested positive for an elevated ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone after his decisive performance in Stage 17 of the Tour de France. Landis won that stage in the Alps and improbably climbed to third place over all after he had struggled and plunged to 11th place the day before. He went on to claim the Tour title.


    During a news conference in Madrid on Friday, Landis said: “We will explain to the world why this is not a doping case, but a natural occurrence.” He explained that the testosterone levels throughout his career were “natural and produced by my own organism.”


    But the French national antidoping laboratory in Châtenay-Malabry performed a carbon isotope ratio test on the first of Landis’s two urine samples provided after Stage 17 of the Tour de France, said the person, who works in the cycling union’s antidoping department. That test was done after Landis’s ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was found to be more than twice the allowed under World Anti-Doping Agency rules, the person said. The rules limit the ratio to four to one. The normal range is between one to one and two to one.
    Landis’s personal doctor, Dr. Brent Kay, of Temecula, Calif., said the initial result was a false positive. He did, however, acknowledge that the test found a ratio of 11 to 1 in Landis’s system. He and Landis are seeking an explanation for that high level.


    “I’ve seen body builders with numbers 100 to 1,” Kay said. “Although Floyd’s was elevated, it’s not off the chart or anything.”


    The carbon isotope test examines the testosterone and determines if it is natural or synthetic. The test found that Landis had synthetic testosterone in his body, the person said.


    Landis, who is in New York after canceling or postponing several talk show appearances, could not be reached for comment this evening.


    The urine sample Landis provided after Stage 17 was divided into an A and a B sample. Landis received the test results of the A sample last Wednesday, and he had five business days to request an analysis of the B sample. Confirmation of the A sample result is needed for any doping violation to occur. If the B sample comes up negative, the case is dropped.
    Michael Henson, who is Landis’s spokesman, said Landis had sent a signed request today around 12:30 p.m. Eastern Time — about 6:30 p.m. Paris time — to the French lab to seek the analysis of his B sample.


    Jose Maria Buxeda, one of Landis’s two Spanish lawyers, told The Associated Press that he had also sent a fax to the cycling union this afternoon to request that the B sample analysis go forward.


    But Pat McQuaid, the president of the cycling union, said this evening that the organization had never received that request. He said the cycling union had contacted the French lab at 5 p.m. Paris time and that Landis’s request had not yet been received.


    McQuaid said the cycling union then asked the lab to analyze Landis’s B sample, which he said was allowed under the organization’s rules, so the test could be concluded before the lab closed for a two-week vacation this Friday. If the tests cannot be finished before then, the results may not come until late August or early September, he said.


    “It’s a two-and-a-half-day job and it’s imperative that the B test be done this week for the credibility of our sport, but also for the public interest,” McQuaid said. “This needs to be put to rest because there is too much innuendo, too much talk, too much damage being done to our sport. We have to get this process done quickly, so we can move on.”


    The lab agreed to conduct the tests from Thursday through Saturday, McQuaid said. That means that Landis’s fate might be known by the weekend.
    If the carbon isotope test again comes back positive, however, Landis will face a two-year suspension from the sport. He also will be stripped of his Tour de France title.


    Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a professor at New York University School of Medicine, said Landis would have several options if his B sample shows the presence of exogenous testosterone.


    “The rules say that it is a violation, but if you can show that the athlete had no fault or no significant fault, there could be a mitigation of the sanction,” he said. “No matter how it got there, the athlete has to show how it got into his or her body. It could have been sabotage or contaminated dietary supplements, or something else, but they have to prove how the testosterone got there.”
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    yes, that does not look good. problems is and yes you have to take this in accont, HOW did it get in there. Did Flyod know about it? Someone at Phonak or a bad Doctor? The lab?

    Funny, but I thought they did not use this test.

    If Landis is lying, he is a scum bag! But I tell you, the chance of a conspicary is hard to believe.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axis II
    I dunno, it aint looking good for Floyd. You decide:
    Yeah, I agree, it doesn't look good. I've got no problem with the isotope analysis. This paper explains the procedure pretty well. It's a lot more rigorous than the T/E test, which is on par with a lie-detector test. (I'm really glad that I'm not the wank that has to run the urine through a reverse-phase column, and then acetylate it in pyridine; sounds like hell). I wish they'd just put out a report, though, so that we can at least see some of the data. Everything that we read is a bit fishy; they use equivocations like "this proves that some of the testosterone found is exogenous." Well how freaking much, and what's the level of certainty? I'm not going to believe it until it's more than just a leak to the press, but I have a bad feeling now.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    at the expense of thier greatest sporting event you are NUTS! You don't realize the money and pride the TDF brings to France and the exposure it brings to the country. I have never had a desire to visit France due the how I heard americans are treated there. After having my wife and others visit there many time and have explained WHY some, some americans are not liked I can see why .

    The more I watch the TDF the more I want to spend tme in Paris and Provance!(?)
    Having the Champ DQ fro drugs would hurt there race big time and it's not good long-term for the TDF or cycling.

    I bet 90% of you who hate "the French" have never met one. Look I am sure there are mnay Frech people that I woulod not like and that includes MANY AMERICANs, Spainards, Germans, Italians, Arabs, etc! If you are a a-hole, you are a a-hole no matter WHAT your nationality or race!

    Now if Floyd is found guilty afetr all this and truly cannot defend these allegations, then I will right him off and any other scumbag that cheats!

    but at the same time like 20.100 FR says, we might as well right off 75-80% of athletes in all sports as drug use is there.

    Maybe Zidane had a test shot/patch before his match with italy and that aggression caused him to head-butt an Italian player and probaly cost France big time in the WC !!!!!

    Well put out DirtBoy.
    I'm French, and i know the US pretty well. I worked there for 4 months. This helped me overcome the ideas i had before on the americans. Like everywhere around the world, there is some very nice people and some stupid dumbass !
    I do not feel close to certain stupid French, and have some american friends. Values and behavior count much more to me than the place were i was born. I choosed my friends, not the place i was born.

    This said i'm pretty sure Zidane, like the others used doping products.
    Your theory on testosterone causing his agressive behavior is very rational !
    Testosterone cause to loose hair. Same for epo. And Zidane is bald.....

    Back to cycling,
    Do you guys really think that Armstrong was able to win clean ahead of Ulrich and Basso who used doping ? Come on ! All pro riders use doping, this is a fact ! You have to ackwnoledge it.
    Armstrong was under drugs, just like the others. This does not remove the fact that he was such an incredible talented rider, as well as a very cold and distant human behing (1st reason why he is so unloved by us French. Greg Lemon, who beat Laurent Fignon but is a nice human being, is liked by the French).

    Floyd used dope on this tour just like the others. He learned it while he was at Us postal, like every young pro learn it when entering a pro team if you don't want to be left behind. This is the culture in pro cycling.

    Floyd is a very nice rider, he is just guilty in picking the wrong doctor unable to cheat the tests.
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  15. #65
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    good post!

    Quote Originally Posted by 20.100 FR
    Well put out DirtBoy.
    I'm French, and i know the US pretty well. I worked there for 4 months. This helped me overcome the ideas i had before on the americans. Like everywhere around the world, there is some very nice people and some stupid dumbass !
    I do not feel close to certain stupid French, and have some american friends. Values and behavior count much more to me than the place were i was born. I choosed my friends, not the place i was born.

    This said i'm pretty sure Zidane, like the others used doping products.
    Your theory on testosterone causing his agressive behavior is very rational !
    Testosterone cause to loose hair. Same for epo. And Zidane is bald.....

    Back to cycling,
    Do you guys really think that Armstrong was able to win clean ahead of Ulrich and Basso who used doping ? Come on ! All pro riders use doping, this is a fact ! You have to ackwnoledge it.
    Armstrong was under drugs, just like the others. This does not remove the fact that he was such an incredible talented rider, as well as a very cold and distant human behing (1st reason why he is so unloved by us French. Greg Lemon, who beat Laurent Fignon but is a nice human being, is liked by the French).

    Floyd used dope on this tour just like the others. He learned it while he was at Us postal, like every young pro learn it when entering a pro team if you don't want to be left behind. This is the culture in pro cycling.

    Floyd is a very nice rider, he is just guilty in picking the wrong doctor unable to cheat the tests.
    very good post - there's nothing to ad.

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    You to!

    I would also say, don't judge a country or people by it's leader no matter who it is! if people are nice, they are nice.
    Again I can't wait to get to Europe next summer. First my families homeland of Italy, the Germany and last but not least France and Spain A
    And yes I told my wife, I will dress they way i like and don't mind looking like an American Tourist!

    Now back to bikes and doping ....

    I will say that most athletes are on drugs of some type and it looks like Landis is BUSTED! .

    Now I will give you my opinion and theory and why I think Lance WAS clean post cancer!

    Now I am fairly confident like most pro riders, lance doped before cancer and this might have brought on or accelerated his cancer. Now let's also remember, this guy was a freak of nature and very talented rider. He was beating older riders on the triathlon and Ironman races at the age of 16. he is one of the most naturally gifted athletes of our time with incredible genes.
    During his cancer treatment, this guys was given SO many drugs of all sorts and experimental drugs to beat and recover from cancer. All these drugs in my opinion help create the rider he see today. Lance came back 20lbs lighter with the same strength! This resulted in a lighter rider with the same HUGE power output he had before.

    Lance is also one of the most mentally tough and focused athletes we have seen. This guy was on his death bed and refused to let cancer beat him. He trained and trained like a mad man to prove to himself, other cancers patients and cancer itself that NOTHING was going to take him down and defeat him! His natural abilities, mental toughness and post cancer treatment made him the super human that we say win the TDF 7 times!

    Add a really great team and dynamics that was SOLEY focused on getting Lance in yellow going into Paris and the results are what you saw!!

    I think after cheating death, this guy was not going to take nay chances with drugs that would jeopardize his health or possibly bring his cancer back.
    He beat death, why risk it!

    Most people don't have any idea what type on heart and fitness levels this guy has. He is a freak compared to most humans.

    The guy has NEVER tested positive during ANY race that has been proven and he was tested more than anyone!

    Now to play devils advocate, the drug labs that he was associated with and he supports like Squibb-Meyers could have developed drugs that were undetectable. If BALCO labs could do it, the largest of drugs companies could also.

    BUT I stand by my opinion as stated above until he is TRULY proven to dope or admits it!
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  17. #67
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    Somebody still trust to tales...

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    Any you beleive 1 test on a samlpe that was waht, five years old? How the hell know what happended to that sample in 5 yrs.

    The drugs and Lance's abiltiy are facts!I just try to piece the puzzle together. You believe that one test on a five year sample reported by a sometimes tabloid paper to be absolute truth?

    Maybe all that olive oil and wine over there has clouded your judgement .
    Drop the newspaper and take the canoli!

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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY

    Maybe all that olive oil and wine over there has clouded your judgement .
    Drop the newspaper and take the canoli!

    Sì, pizza e mandolino...
    I'm only skeptical, that's all...

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    Just a joke...

    I am too, but I think my theory holds water....
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    Now I will give you my opinion and theory and why I think Lance WAS clean post cancer!
    And the other way around :
    Don't you think that he was used to use so many drugs, that he was ready to absorb anything that he can to be able to recover and win a race ?
    Ha has been in doctors hands since it's cancer, and never quitted them...

    His relation with the Doctor Ferrari, notorious for his pro-drugs spirit, is well known.
    Did you read the book "LA confidential" ? There's a lot of things in there...

    Even if this guy was already an incredible athlete before is cancer, don't you think that Jan Ulrich wasn't ? He won a world title too. Do you think that there was so much differences between the level of the two so that drugs weren't suficient to help Ulrich beat Armstrong ? I doubt that.
    I read a book by an ex french pro rider who confess of doping. He said that taking some stuff was like riding a motorcycle !!! If pro riders use drugs, it's because they make a difference. And a huge one.
    If you don't use them, you will be behind. Far behind.

    Even if they are super freaks by nature, way more performant than us mere mortals, some things are just un-natural. I remember the EPO days. I was next to the road, near the end of an alpine stage of the tour. The riders were going incredibly fast, and moreover without blinking an eye ! Do you remember pantany looking so fresh after l'alpe d'huez ? Just like he had done nothing of his day ? This days are no gone with the Bloodtests. Everybody just use epo to get just under the normal level of oxygen in the blood.

    There are some guys with a natural high oxygen level in the blood. These guys have lost their advantage other the others. So now doping is more on the muscles (with testosterone and growth hormone), and probably on efficienty to use the oxygen, with drugs we don't know (yet) about.
    I can't believe there was some drug in track running that wasn't used in pro cycling. There is the money, and the guy ready to test evything in the pro ranks.

    All this said, you can still admire Armstrong !
    I like is technique, with a high pedaling frequency, and always avoiding crashes. I like his tactics, no very brillant, but so efficient. I like is incredibly focused mind. This guy has a really great psychology, and is all about fullfilling his goals.

    But this guy is a liar. It took stuff. Just like the others. This doesn't remove him from being the best rider at his time.

    V

    PS :
    French basketball players taking 10 kilograms of muscles in one summer when they are going to play in NBA. Do you think pro french player have never heard of musculation before ?
    In NBA, NHL, and hockey, the doping is nicely done, organised and controlled by the league. This gives a nice spectacle, and not so bad health of the players (just a kidney from time to time, like Alonso Mourning...).
    TDF ridders better have the same system, instead of using some unknow "pot belge" stuff.
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    Yes, I think all those drugs during cancer helped him in all those victories. Threy mad him even stronger than he was.

    have you seen his vital stats? I think his heart can pump 2x the volume a normal human heart can. His V02 max? Power output? his numbers are off the charts!

    All the TDF riders must be incrediable athletes. BUT all the drugs in the word won't make you win the TDF or any other tilte. YOU MUST already posses the skills and abilites. drugs just help you captalize on it.

    Like barry Bonds. The guy could already hit the ball better than most players. Drugs just took him to another level.
    So even if Lance and ALL the riders were on dope, Lance still beat them all 7 times!

    I also think the demands of racing now awadays and length of races have made it nesscary in cycling to dope!

    I also feel and have some knowledge of drug use going on in American Sports like the NFL, NBA, MLD and the NHL.

    I heard and fell that it's controled by the leauge to a certain point. i always love when a college football player gets drafted and the analyts say "wai to he get's the the pros. They add another 20-50lbs to his body."

    How? drugs IMO. You think trainer and food are that much better in the pros? Sure to a certain degree and the pro have more money.
    but it's just falt out amazing how these guys get even bigger after using drugs from high school and college were they don't even test and where some coaches even tell you were and what steroids to take! yes this happened with my in HS and I know of several college programs were this happens. Corn feeding your boys only goes so far.....
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  23. #73
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    When i see my time and Armstrong's at climbing the alpe d'huez, i for sure know that we don't share the same physiology.

    It is very likely that if even if i used dugs (i do not take into account Bordeaux and Chartreuse :P ) i would not ne able to even think of following him...

    But as gifted as Armstrong is, there are other super athletes other there, who made it to the pro ranks. These other guys are freaks to, with incredible VO², power ratio, etc... values.
    May be, if we compare all them without drugs, they are 5% slower (this is a big gap !). but the gain you can acheive with doping are strong. Much more than 5%. So i think it's still unlikely that i "clean" guy, even gifted like Armstrong, can win on pure water against other great competitor using enhancing stuff.

    If Arstrong won so many times, it is very likely that he would have been the dominant rider if all the riders were clean to. I do think he would still be the best.

    But we will never know. The only thing we know is that Armstrong cocktail of natural gift and enhancing drugs was faster than is competitors and their enhancing drugs.

    So may be he has the best natural capacities, or may be is doctors/labs produce a better enhancing drug. In fact, i don't really care. I just take it the way it is : the guy and the drug combo.
    That's why i would like to see the pharmatecial labs name as sponsorts on the jersey. This would be more clear for everybody.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY
    have you seen his vital stats? I think his heart can pump 2x the volume a normal human heart can. His V02 max? Power output? his numbers are off the charts!
    Just small detail, while his vital stats while excellent for a cyclist they are fairly modest compared to xc skiers stats from 90's and early '00's....
    I was tested for V02 max as teenager and had something 70mmol and testers comment was something like "with values this low you're not going to waste your time in xc-skiing are you?".
    Last edited by markom; 08-04-2006 at 02:58 AM.

  25. #75
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    Reputation: scapin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    254
    Dirt boy: B sample positive.

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