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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    I understand markup and price scheduling, but what I would like to know is: Why the outrageous price gap between Europe and the USA? The difference is far more than the forex difference.
    As I said in my first post, I have to admit I really dont know what the average LBS retail price is for the XT crank here in Europe.
    Other than the weak dollar and the Yuzo-Yozo scenario, the only other expanation could be that Paul Lange and Co. employs a smaller margin than the American distributor. Shimano might be giving Paul Lange better pricing on stategical basis: maybe they need want to match the prices dictated by Truvativ (now SRAM) and FSA on the European market. (It's cheaper than doing it world-wide...) Nevertheless, I'm in Europe, part of the EU, Paul Lange is distributing Shimano in my country, and still I'm paying as much for an XT crank as Americans... unless I order from Germany... Expain this!

    -b

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    How is paying retail a "charity"???
    Because if I'd pay such a ridiculous price it would be emotionally driven. Shops who have to charge full retail to stay afloat are either ripping you off or working from the wrong business model. When I pay for that I'm only sustaining what shouldn't exist in the first place and will eventually fail anyway.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by divve
    Because if I'd pay such a ridiculous price it would be emotionally driven. Shops who have to charge full retail to stay afloat are either ripping you off or working from the wrong business model. When I pay for that I'm only sustaining what shouldn't exist in the first place and will eventually fail anyway.
    Really? The most succesful locally owned chain of bike shops here in Albuquerque makes an outstanding (in the bike biz ) 39-40% average margin, and charges full retail for everything.

    Go figure

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by divve
    Because if I'd pay such a ridiculous price it would be emotionally driven. Shops who have to charge full retail to stay afloat are either ripping you off or working from the wrong business model. When I pay for that I'm only sustaining what shouldn't exist in the first place and will eventually fail anyway.
    Why is retail ripping you off? Why is it the "wrong" business model to charge retail?

    Do you go to the supermarket and demand that they only charge you half of what an item is marked at? Why not? Why is it an "outrage" to pay retail?

    While a mail order shop that circumvents distributers and buys OEM lots can offer a lower price, it makes no sense to complain about paying retail at a retail outlet. What, do you expect they'll just give stuff away?
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  5. #55
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    It's not wrong to charge retail, because I'm not forced to buy anything at that price either. Probably not a good idea however if you like to stay in business. Not many people are willing to spend $450 on cranks if they can get them for $330.

    The supermarket? When was the last time you've seen anything for MSRP there? Competition and volume has driven their prices way down.

    When the price is too high I don't make a big deal about it. I'll just take my money and shop elsewhere. However, I would indeed feel cheated if a certain company was actively trying to limit my choice by rigging the market.

    You got the mail-order thing all wrong. Somewhere in the supply chain someone is getting greedy or just isn't playing ball in the normal fashion. Nothing wrong with that in itself. The end result will just be the death of smaller shops and perhaps some of the larger competition in the long run.

    On the other hand, in Europe any decent local bike shop is able to match mail-order or get very close to them on price. They get individual goods almost as cheap as they would if they order a larger batch from a distributor.

    I don't expect anything. If someone can't cut it they'll just disappear.

  6. #56
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    Only?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    As someone else said; only in the bike industry do people think they are getting "hosed" by paying retail.
    Only in the bike industry? How 'bout automotive, electronics, office supplies, clothing - the list goes on. If it were only in the bike industry, Ebay, outlet malls and the wholesale membership megastores would not exist...
    Golden Bike Park

    Golden Connector Trails need your support!

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide
    am still using tnt and race face titaium bb sugino 42/32 and...
    I bet you'd really like another pair of 180mm TNT's wouldn't you? How about a matching, pristine World Class Ti bb to go with those TNT's?

  8. #58
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Only in the bike industry? How 'bout automotive, electronics, office supplies, clothing - the list goes on. If it were only in the bike industry, Ebay, outlet malls and the wholesale membership megastores would not exist...
    So in what other industrys do you expect to pay half of retail? Which stores are able to offer these prices?
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  9. #59
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by divve

    The supermarket? When was the last time you've seen anything for MSRP there? Competition and volume has driven their prices way down.
    I've worked in the supermarket industry, as a beverage (beer and soda) supplier. The same logic doesn't apply because the store sets the MSRP based on the price they get the items for, it is variable due to sales and other incentives, but the store is always making money. There really isn't an "MSRP" in the supermarket industry, it just doesn't work that way and it is a bad comparission. In fact, the supermarket always bought products from us at a fairly fixed price, "sales" were handled by the supermarket directly communicating and doing transactions with the particular company that was having the "sale", which means that no matter what 12 packs of budweiser were going to sell for, they always bought them for the same price, and then they went ABOVE us to the manufacturer basically (we were distributing) to settle the sale prices, it was a fairly odd system, and it doesn't relate very well to this situation or many others. The fact that most supermarket products are perishable also adds complexity and different aspects as compared to something like an auto parts store...
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  10. #60
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    no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.

    edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.

    - Joel

  11. #61
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomacropod
    no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.

    edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.

    - Joel
    $280 for a two ring setup W/O a granny gear, not really that light, in fact add a granny and steel chainring bolts like the XT has, and the weight savings are pretty small, if anything.

    There's no way that those cranks are anywhere near as stiff as the XTs, the hollow crankarms have way more surface area than an other design could hope to have, and add to that the huge axle that it rotates on these days.

    Not sure I see the point of the middleburns when you can get something at the same weight that is WAY stiffer with the XTs...
    Last edited by Jm.; 02-17-2005 at 08:20 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  12. #62
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    where do you buy Middleburn stuff in the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomacropod

    no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.

    edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.

    - Joel
    I'd like to get some of their rings.
    M

  13. #63
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    Methodology?

    Quote Originally Posted by nino
    even LX is stiffer...just have a look here:
    Hey Nino, maybe I missed it, but could you explain the methodolgy used to test crank stiffness in these tests? For instance, was a chain put on the chainrings and then bolted to an imoveable object and then the arms deflection measured for a given force? If not, the test would not seem all that viable. The cranks ability to deliver force to the chain is what matters. I ask because I can see that XT cranks have very high stiffness numbers, but I look at how the rings attatch to an XTR spider, and it looks like at least the rings on XTR (middle and outer) would likely end up being very stiff. Of course this is just an observation, that is why I am interested in knowing if the testing methodology included the chainrings, or if they just tested stiffness of the arms and BB spindle alone.

  14. #64
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    well http://www.ibexsports.com/ is the distributor, they have four stockists listed on their site. It's probably quicker to get their stuff from www.chainreactioncycles.com (UK) though.

    JM, I don't want steel chainring bolts or a granny ring. I wouldn't have bought the duo crankset if I wanted a granny ring. I've never tested the XT w/ outboard bearings but these cranks feel much snappier than shimano square/octalink or FSA/Truvativ ISIS cranks I've tried/used. I was really just adding another option to the pot. I have nothing in particular against shimano's new cranksets.

    anyway, simplicity and versatility are worth a lot to me, and I get that with my 'burns.

    - Joel

  15. #65
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    I used to work in a pro audio shop...

    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    Only in the bike industry? How 'bout automotive, electronics, office supplies, clothing - the list goes on. If it were only in the bike industry, Ebay, outlet malls and the wholesale membership megastores would not exist...
    ... and most of that gear was sold at a 20 point markup... some as low as 10 points for stuff like Mackie mixing consoles, the bigger ones.

    Guitars and amps were typically sold at 30-50 points markup. Most stuff MSRPs at 30-50 points markup.

    If I asked for full MSRP, the client would have laughed at me.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomacropod
    no tuning, nothing special, 780g w/rings and FSA Platinum TI BB. Stiff, available, $280 US for the cranks and rings. Very versatile, you can put a couple of dozen different spiders/chainrings on those cranks. I have three sets and love them. Chainring quality is top notch as well, low friction surface treatment makes for great wear and shifting.

    edit: those horrendous chainsuck marks are from a shimano alivio crankset, many years ago. This frame has seen a lot.

    - Joel
    I've got some middleburns on my DH bike and love them - but compared to other offerings out there they are pretty darn expensive. They work well for my DH application, but on my trail bike i wanted something stiff, and like JM said, the outboard bearing setup takes the cake. By no means am I saying that the Middleburn cranks are flexy, but the setup as a whole isn'tt as stiff.

    just my $0.02 worth.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Scary
    Or the bike shops could realize that people seeking XTR ae not paying retail on Ebay. I don't mind paying a little extra at the shop, but market economics drives product costing. Why pay more for the same product? Life isn't fair JM but business is business...
    99% of the time, someone who buys a crankset off of ebay is not the kind of person that is going to spend any money in a shop anyways. They are going to do the work themselves, they are going to order whatever they need, and they are the last person that we'll see or get any business from anyway. The best shops are the ones that know they can NOT compete with online prices, to put it simply many online prices are as much or very nearly as much as they pay wholesale. It's impossible to compete and the shops that know and acknowledge this are the ones that get on my "good side". They aren't trying to BS me, aren't trying to perpetuate a failing business model by cutting prices and hoping that they'll sell more, when people are still going to go for whichever one is $1 cheaper.

    What does MSRP exist for then?, since you have deemed it to be completely useless.

    Like you said, business is business, so stop whining about MSRP and getting "raped" by the bike shop, they are not raping you, they are not wiping their a$$ with $20 bills in the back of the shop, they are just trying to survive, and if you feel that is "raping you", then you should take your money elswhere, but don't whine about it and then try to claim that "business is business". It works two ways you know.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  18. #68
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    agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot
    If I asked for full MSRP, the client would have laughed at me.
    EXACTLY! And I have to disagree with JM too, there's a hell of a lot more than biking where nobody pays full retail.

    Musicians Friend, everything music and audio, thousands of items are all sold below MSRP, the local dealer has no choice but to match their prices or they will go the way of the do-do bird. They're cool about it too, MF's price plus shipping. And they don't have any attitude, its just how business is done these days.

    Places like Wal-Mart and Best Buy have completely put the squeeze on local electronics dealers and most local CD dealers. Does anyone pay full retail for a CD nowadays? Only if you're a fool or don't live near a Mart or Best Buy. Let's see I can pay $17 or $10, hmmm...

    Ever seen what a small hardware store asks for something compared to Home Depot or Lowe's? It obscene.

    Only in the biking business do people seem to be offended when you go bargain hunting at on-line dealers. And I don't feel for any LBS or any other local business that feels we should pay whatever they're charging simply because you should spport the local/little guys. Before the net, in Alaska, we all got reamed price-wise because, "its so much more expensive to ship stuff here." Whatever.

    It was because it was a lot harder to get small shop, high end merchandise. In the last few years there has been a noticable drop in local prices, competition -- from where ever -- is a beautiful thing. Some places have gone under too, mostly because they still tried to get away with MSRP type pricing when you knew it was a total ripoff.

    My LBS owner gave me an attitude when I was looking for parts for my Turner frame. I saved hundreds buying on-line. I told him the difference in price was the difference between me getting the Turner or something really I didn't want like the Saber So instead of settling I bought the frame I really wanted. That was the last time I went shopping for anything more than tubes locally.

    Only in the biking industry would anyone give you grief about buying something else when you're willing to spend money in their shop. If I went to the Jeep dealer to get my rig serviced and the manager gave me grief about buying my tires at Costco I'd tell him to take a flying leap.

    The climate is changing, Just like small businesses that had to adapt to the Marts and Home Depot's of the world, so will the LBS. If not they will go under. Its just a fact of life and part of doing business. There are plenty of successful shops, the ones that complain likely aren't run by very good business people, otherwise they would have seen this coming and adapted. There's always room to fill the voids the big guys and shops thousands of miles away don't. Survival off the fittest, its darwinism at its best.

    Edit: I forgot I am gonna buy a Surly 1x1 frameset from another LBS on Monday, but its only $26 more than I can get it online.
    Last edited by AK Chris; 02-19-2005 at 09:31 PM.
    The red couch has moved from Alaska to Florida...

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    99% of the time, someone who buys a crankset off of ebay is not the kind of person that is going to spend any money in a shop anyways. They are going to do the work themselves, they are going to order whatever they need, and they are the last person that we'll see or get any business from anyway. The best shops are the ones that know they can NOT compete with online prices, to put it simply many online prices are as much or very nearly as much as they pay wholesale. It's impossible to compete and the shops that know and acknowledge this are the ones that get on my "good side". They aren't trying to BS me, aren't trying to perpetuate a failing business model by cutting prices and hoping that they'll sell more, when people are still going to go for whichever one is $1 cheaper.

    What does MSRP exist for then?, since you have deemed it to be completely useless.

    Like you said, business is business, so stop whining about MSRP and getting "raped" by the bike shop, they are not raping you, they are not wiping their a$$ with $20 bills in the back of the shop, they are just trying to survive, and if you feel that is "raping you", then you should take your money elswhere, but don't whine about it and then try to claim that "business is business". It works two ways you know.
    The failing business model is the shop that ignores the market driven nature of commerce. You said they are "just trying to survive". But that's the problem. They should be trying to make some money (it's a business) and, therefore, bending to market forces.

    Shops seem to either try to match an online retailer price structure or they charge full MSRP across the board. Clealy you can't do either one. So it's somewhere in the middle. I would pay a bit more to have it now. I would pay a bit more if the shop put it on. I would pay a bit more if there was a frequent buyer club. I would pay a bit more if the wrenches are consistent. Etc. It's somewhere in between etailer price and MSRP. Find the sweet spot of added value. I can't imagine this is anything other than standard free-market stuff. But if you are a shop, don't be saying "Well, I (owner) can't beat online prices so (throwing hands in the air) I'm gonna charge MSRP!". If you think that's not BS then you've been BSd.

    BTW, I'm not a wrench or shop owner or even a business person so take it with a grain of salt. And don't take it personally because Jm. is my favorite mtbr poster.

  20. #70
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    boutique burberryme sister experience neighbor decide tell block crease

    You can locate cheap special discounts all around the huge World Broad Web solde burberry Ring making resources: Ring mandrel, a slightly tapered spindle utilized in forming rings burberrysoldesfrance monwebeden fr/]burberry solde The youngsters are usually are inclined to be too naughty and operate hither and thither the day lengthy, which helps make the ft swell above the course of the day

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graitteneag View Post
    You can locate cheap special discounts all around the huge World Broad Web solde burberry Ring making resources: Ring mandrel, a slightly tapered spindle utilized in forming rings burberrysoldesfrance monwebeden fr/]burberry solde The youngsters are usually are inclined to be too naughty and operate hither and thither the day lengthy, which helps make the ft swell above the course of the day
    Gotta love spammers that dredge up 7.5 year old threads just to spam their junk.
    I crashed hard enough on my Tallboy to break my leg,
    The carbon is way more durable than most people.

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