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  1. #1
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    7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage

    Copied from my G+ page:

    Right guys . Video proof for all you skeptics out there . My math wasn't wrong and all my weights were/are correct . 7.9kg for a large alloy full suss with disc brakes . I will still try and shave more off but without compromising performance .


    Note : Using Disturbed's Haunted song so hope no copyright issues there .

    If any of you guys could do me a huge favour and try and find one that's lighter (in the same category of course ) I would appreciate it .
    Oh and let me know if the video link is working .

    Cheers !!!




    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...JEbnNNcDVnQ2p3
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    7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage-dscn0080%5B1%5D.jpg  

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    7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage-dscn0068%5B1%5D.jpg  

    Last edited by Seb K; 02-18-2016 at 09:24 PM. Reason: More Pics

  2. #2
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    Nice job. I am just confused why you spend all the dough on the lightest WW parts yet don't spend $5 on a hanging scale, or on a food scale that weighs down to the hundreth/thousands of a gram when you are shaving off clear coats and what not...

    great work!

  3. #3
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    Cheers man !!!

    Tbh honest I just haven't got round to getting one . Also i haven't quite finished with this just yet .

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    ... I will still try and shave more off but without compromising performance ...
    Nice one, but I think you're already right into the "compromised performance" category with those super anemic furious freds. They don't look much bigger than CX tyres. My experiences with the Furious Fred's have been all bad (except as a lightweight fold-up emergency spare to take multi-day bike camping).

  5. #5
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    I got the idea from Lightbikes.de as all the top end light bikes have this tyre .

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    I don't think lb.de has been much active in last 3-4 years

    as you are building it for the scales, why not maxxlite 285 then?
    Last edited by diskox; 02-22-2016 at 04:03 AM.

  7. #7
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    Never seen those . If I'm honest tyre choice has never been my strong point . I know all the technical details about types of rubber compounds, kevlar beads etc but nothing about grip choice .

    I have noticed the site hasn't been updated n a while but it still quite inspirational . Even has the owner's bike of R2-bike.de is on there .

  8. #8
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    If any of you guys could do me a huge favour and try and find one that's lighter (in the same category of course ) I would appreciate it .
    My Large Cannondale Scalpel I built for 3000 all in was lighter than this and it used normal components (eg Ralphs), no drilling, no exotica and it was all solid, proper MTB stuff.

    A few people built Scalpels on WW around 6.8 so mine was a porker by comparison! Here's a 6.85 Scalpel that is probably most comparable to yours in terms of component choices. Bear in mind this was 5 years ago now and things have moved on. Most people use 29ers for a start 26 is cheating

    Cannion Cannondale Scalpel 2011 - 6850g -15,10lbs - Weight Weenies

    You have some great detail but miss the big picture with this bike (I mean that as a compliment!). Sure these are carbon examples but it is silly to be so specific in your niche when plenty of other builds can be so much cheaper and lighter and for all intents and purposes the same type of bike (XC 26er full sus).

    P.S. Bathroom scales are amateur hour! Massively inaccurate!

  9. #9
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    The whole point to this was to build the lightest alloy MTB . I could get a small frame and put V-brakes on it and make it fully rigid and it would be lighter than any of those Scalpels . I could build a small hardtail and it would be lighter than any of those Scalpels . All capable off roaders too .

    The biggest challenge is to build a bike that has a metal frame rather than carbon and get it lighter than a carbon bike . All the examples I have seen are on medium frames . Even with 29" wheels it equates to my large alloy frame . My bike is still lighter than a lot of carbon bikes but my original question was to find an alloy bike lighter than mine in the same category if it's not too much trouble . I seriously need examples

  10. #10
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    Another point is as cool as that bike is something doesn't seem right about the weight . All the components are roughly the same weight if not more than mine (except the wheelset - around 100grams lighter ) . His frame is around 700grams lighter than mine (carbon medium - go figure) . Also he has a front gearing too .

    Maybe I need to get those luggage scales !!!

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    There is not much of a difference between M and L in terms of weigh, at least there wasn't any for my flash as I had both frames. Same thing goes for scalpel.

    We are linking you carbon versions simply because what you are asking is hard if not impossible to find. lb.i, lb.de, lb.il, starbike etc when they were active 4-5-6 years ago when it was popular to do ww for the scales and even back then everyone used carbon frames. You could even draw a pattern where cannondale/specialized/scott had lighter frames than they are nowadays and for example all tricked out 29" 2015 s-works HT is 7.6kg while my flash 2011 was 7.1kg.

    IMO alloy ww is a miss and while you will set an example, there just won't be any audience for it. Now if you were to do that with titanium frame, that would be a different story as it would be more unique and is something what people do when they get bored with carbon.

  12. #12
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    Furious Freds, 26" wheels, a fork without a damper (IIRC).

    While I appreciate the effort that went into this, I very seriously question the "result" for actual mountain biking.

    I would not be able to ride that bike fast on my local terrain.
    Death from Below.

  13. #13
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    I hear what you're saying . It is true that carbon frames are in and alloy is out with a lot of the XC audience but if and only if I could wow people with a light alloy full sus then I've done my job . I hear a lot that alloy is on the rise again but I' not sure if that is just biased media .

    I wouldn't use titanium for the simple fact that it's heavier and less stiff than alloy .

    I would actually like to know the properties of the alloy used in the M5 as it feels a lot lighter than most alloy frames that i have dealt with . A bit like Scrub's metal matrix .

  14. #14
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    Well, this is a pretty impressive build regardless. I've also made my comment on the frame in other posts, , but your innovative work with carbon is fun to watch.

    Maybe we should initiate a Kickstarter campaign to get you a decent scale though.

  15. #15
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    Cheers man !!!

    I will get a new scale .

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    The biggest challenge is to build a bike that has a metal frame rather than carbon and get it lighter than a carbon bike .
    This makes no sense. Components weighing x plus frame weighing y will never be comparable to components x on frame z unless frames y and z weigh the same. You are basically just comparing frame weights and expecting the heavier framed bike to be lighter overall ????

    if and only if I could wow people with a light alloy full sus then I've done my job
    You've thrown a ton of money and some nice tuning on a heavy old trail full sus frame. You've made a bike equal to the weight of the nice components on the heavy frame.

    If you started with something like a Scandium Kona (Hei Hei?) it would be more sensible and I'm sure you could tune the bolts/ rockets/ etc to make the full package even when adding far more practical components instead of some of the show bike choices so far.

    I wouldn't use titanium for the simple fact that it's heavier and less stiff than alloy .
    Not going get in an Engineering discussion again

    All capable off roaders too .
    Again, we've been there before and beg to differ

  17. #17
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    I beg to differ too . There are lots out there who go offroad on fully rigid bikes . It can be done with a bit of skill .

    You think titanium is lighter than alloy then ?!!! You think it doesn't flex ?!!!

    Tell me what impractical parts are on the bike because as I know it is fully rideable .

  18. #18
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    Sure, it's rideable.

    Just like I can ride a road bike or a unicycle in an XC race. Or I can enter a cyclocross bike in a DH race. I can pick my way up or down anything given enough time, really.

    Unless you are a world class bike handler who weighs 50kg, you'd flat or crash more or less instantly with FFs here. Square edged rocks and slimy roots as far as the eye can see.
    Death from Below.

  19. #19
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    26" is perfectly fine, Furious Freds seem to hold up well although i might be changing them and the fork works great without the damper .

  20. #20
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    Again you're opinion .

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    Again you're opinion .
    Then why do none of the Schwalbe sponsored XC racers run FFs?

    Cannondale Factory Racing? Nope. Never.

    Ghost Factory Team? Nope. Never.

    Unior Tools? Nope. Never.
    Death from Below.

  22. #22
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    Their choice . A lot of the light bikes I see form the German sites have them . You seem to love following what others do . I do my own thing and it works for me and I get great results .

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    I've used FFs a few years back, and must admit they are tough to live with, especially on the front. I will throw one on the rear under the right conditions, but I have since switched to Thunder Burts which are far better IMO. Still light, but not nearly as light as the FFs of course. I don't think Schwalbe is making them any longer, so the point is probably moot.

    Another alternative that I used to ride is the Specialized Renegades with the S-Works casing. Surprisingly good, although difficult to mount tubeless given the paper-thin sidewalls.

    In any event, none of these tires are mudders, so you'd need something else on those days anyway.

  24. #24
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    Very true . I must admit the tread does look very shallow to be very grippy . I might try the Maxxis instead .

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    Their choice . A lot of the light bikes I see form the German sites have them . You seem to love following what others do . I do my own thing and it works for me and I get great results .
    What results are those? Do you actually race?

    Because I do. I'm pretty decent at it, too. And I take note of what other people do, and why it seems to work, or not work for them. I like going fast, and while having a "light" bike can be part of that, not falling down the mountain or repairing a flat every 10 minutes is also a significant part of that.

    "Following others" is like noticing that Greg Lemond crushed everyone in a Tour time trial on aerobars, and then equipping your bike in the same way. "Doing my own thing" is akin to riding 19mm tubulars on 32 spoke wheels on a funny bike, when a modern TT bike (deep carbon front, disk rear, aerobars, 23mm clinchers) is at your disposal.
    Death from Below.

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    This stuff might work for you but you will not get an Elite guy or gal to race your bike. Guaranteed.

    We've established before you have the odd nip around the park in London and that's fine. Not everyone can be crazy fast and I know I am certainbly not Le Duke level! If we ignore that and focus on pure lightest weight for having the odd bit of fun on then your bike could be a hell of a lot lighter with something like a Scalpel and still be the same type of bike (XC full sus).... and even manage to be lighter if for some reason you insist on sticking with alloy and ditch the heavy, trail frame by switching to a Hei Hei or similar at (2-2.1kg). That is pretty much the question you were asking and there's your answer. Turner Nitrous, Ghost RT, Extralie F1, Litespeed Sewanee all spring to mind as much lighter "metal" full sus frames

  27. #27
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    The 'odd nip around the park' is me testing the parts I make and the trails can be incredibly rough .

    Back to the bike - those frames could possibly be close with my frame now that I ditched the Brain Shock . I've read from some posts here that the medium is around 2.5kg and so that makes mine around 2.7kg ?!!! Anyway removing the Brain shok removed nearly 500grams from the frame . Adding the DT Swiss makes the frame 2.3kg (roughly). The bike with the other frame weight would then be around 7.7kg -so not really much in it .

  28. #28
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    Also the bike works for me . Thought that was the point . I'm not building it for anyone else !!!

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    Pointless discussion without knowing how heavy what you already have is. Also, how much money has been spent chasing a few g's when you could very easily have somewhere from 200-500g's knocked off with a quick scout around ebay for one of the alternative frames or even more with a Scalpel or similar???? There's plenty of scope with your bike to go down your chosen route and improve....

  30. #30
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    Well I'm going by what other posters have put on this site (and on the WW site) and I trust them . Anyway a Scalpel would be nice but in alloy not carbon .

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    I know that 2008 alu scalpel is ~1770g for the pure frame. Newer versions should be similar in weight.

    Putting away tire choice, one thing I'm not fond of in your build is 3-bolt discs(IIRC). I'm not sure I would do that on my commuter let alone on FS when I go down the hill with it.

  32. #32
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    I ride what works for me .

  33. #33
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    I know that was a risk but the rear disc is 140mm and it works fine . I have the same setup on my other trail bike (although with a 160mm rotor) and it's held up so far .

    That frame weight is very light . I'll look into that . Cheers !!!

  34. #34
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    Okay I've emailed Spesh to get the official weight of the frame (if they can help me) so we'll see . Maybe I should change this to the lightest alloy Stumpy !!!

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    Just weight the f*** thing. Spesh will give you a rough guide at best which will even then probably be at the optimistic end of the spectrum

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-W View Post
    Just weight the f*** thing.
    On his bathroom scale??

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  38. #38
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    Okay I just found this and according to eliflap (with pic) the medium size alloy Scalpel with shock is 2.3kg so not really worth getting unless it's carbon in which case there is no point for me .

    frame weight of alloy scalpel.....

    Right so from what I can see another post stated the medium Stumpy alloy frame in medium was around 2.5kg . Now I'm putting that to the Brain Shock which weighs nearly 500grams which I stated before . You put a Fox shock on there and you reduce it by around 250grams which makes it lighter than the Cannondale .

    I'm sorry but that isn't good enough to warrant the frame swap . I would be ruining my bike .

    Also and i can't stress this enough - I love Specialized . Seriously am not going to be swapping frames that's for sure . Also don't know what kind of alloy Cannondale uses . At least the M5 has a good rep and is a very light alloy .

  39. #39
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    Oh and I'm not cheating by using 26" .In comparison I could say using a MEDIUM carbon frame is cheating !!!

  40. #40
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    Excuse the blurred picture . I have changed the saddle to the modified AX Lightness saddle again . I have also made a second attempt at the 24ct gold label and I have added some custom red Extralite grips (instead of boring black) . Bike is still under 8kg and even more custom !!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage-dscn0165%5B1%5D.jpg  


  41. #41
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    I don't get the point of the aluminum frame when you throw carbon fiber on almost every single component mounted to the frame. I really don't. If you wanted to prove that you could build a light bike without carbon fiber, then none of the components should've been carbon.

    You're bar and stem are carbon (and probably more expensive than your frame), so clearly you're not afraid of the structural integrity of the material. So what the hell is the motive for using a heavy frame just for the sake of it being aluminium?

  42. #42
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    The frame was nearly 1500 so not more than the bar and stem (although they are expensive too) .

    I see so many carbon framed bikes being weighed and showing off how light they can be and it 's all the same . I love the new frames and I love all the new designs and effort people go to make their carbon bikes light but i always question how light you can get an alloy bike My initial plan was to just build up a bike with some bling parts and leave it at that . When I started looking more into the WW world and discovered what people were doing to their rides I was hooked .I;ve been working with carbon fibre (and metals) for a good few years and so stared making parts but also wanted to have some of the aftermarket parts you can get from overseas .

    So trawling through the WW site and lightbikes.de I discovered that nearly all bikes were carbon framed . So I thought well how about alloy ?!!! It's been around far longer than carbon in the bike world (and continues - in fact according to some surveys it is on the rise again) . It would be far more impressive to make a light bike from an alloy frame . Also would be different and stand out more .

    Okay I could strip the bike down and put it on a carbon frame and drop around 300 - 500 grams (the m5 alloy is a lot lighter than you think) but then all my efforts would be out the window .

    I 've had people tell me to not bother . I've even had people say to get a hardtail instead but they don't get it . I'm glad the majority of my audience do . To build a full sus with an alloy frame, disc brakes and bottlecage (also my cranks have the stainless steel axle not the titanium - it was on sale) and get it under 8kg is hard believe me .

    I've even had suggestion to get a lighter alloy frame . I've checked and they are all around the same as mine . It has been stated that the Stumpjumper frame is actually lighter than the Epic (at the time but don't quote me on that) .

    Regarding the carbon parts if I crash I can always replace the part but damaging the frame means having to get a whole new frame which is basically a whole new bike in my opinion . I can't justify that . Carbon works great for components but I'm not sold on their strength in a collision .

    It was a tough job to get the bike to its state now and it's not over yet . I have some more things I want to experiment with . I could still drop another 100 grams by removing the second damper inside the fork and replace the rear shock with the new German A shock but then I would lose 100% adjustability which to me makes no sense .

    Still more work to do !!!

  43. #43
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    Crossmaxx, you made the mistake of trying to apply logic.

    When you don't even know the weight of your current frame all other discussion about frame choice for a light build become pointless...

    Hows the scale coming along?

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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    ... It would be far more impressive to make a light bike from an alloy frame ...
    I was trying to stay out of this discussion, but its just so frustrating.

    The responses to this thread aren't suggesting that people find it impressive that you're working with an alloy frame, generally they just can't understand why you would wrap good carbon stuff round a heavy old alloy frame. That is a completely different sensation from being impressed.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelV8V View Post
    I was trying to stay out of this discussion, but its just so frustrating.

    The responses to this thread aren't suggesting that people find it impressive that you're working with an alloy frame, generally they just can't understand why you would wrap good carbon stuff round a heavy old alloy frame. That is a completely different sensation from being impressed.
    Well because if I use more alloy/titanium on the bike it would be well over 8kg .

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-W View Post
    Crossmaxx, you made the mistake of trying to apply logic.

    When you don't even know the weight of your current frame all other discussion about frame choice for a light build become pointless...

    Hows the scale coming along?
    Scale ordered .

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    Okay I could strip the bike down and put it on a carbon frame and drop around 300 - 500 grams (the m5 alloy is a lot lighter than you think) but then all my efforts would be out the window .
    Wtf? All your efforts you would be able to transfer to the new frame, so nothing would be out the window.

    The way I see it, you could build a bike that is either say 300-400 grams lighter without sacrificing performance (most likely gaining a lot of performance due to updated geometry, better stiffness due to the properties of modern carbon fiber technology and so on), or you could have built a bike weighing the same amount as yours weighs, but with a lot more functionality (like proper brake rotors, dampers and so on).

    This bike, while I realize that you've put a lot of effort on it, doesn't impress me in the slightest, mostly because I wouldn't want to ride it.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossmaxx View Post
    Wtf? All your efforts you would be able to transfer to the new frame, so nothing would be out the window.

    The way I see it, you could build a bike that is either say 300-400 grams lighter without sacrificing performance (most likely gaining a lot of performance due to updated geometry, better stiffness due to the properties of modern carbon fiber technology and so on), or you could have built a bike weighing the same amount as yours weighs, but with a lot more functionality (like proper brake rotors, dampers and so on).

    This bike, while I realize that you've put a lot of effort on it, doesn't impress me in the slightest, mostly because I wouldn't want to ride it.
    This.

    Build an 8.5kg FS 650B or 29er that could survive an actual mountain bike race or a ride more testing than putting around the local village green or rail trail, and I'll be impressed.
    Death from Below.

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    Oh, and by the way, you might be pleased to know that carbon fiber frames are reparable, whereas aluminum frames aren't (at least not to the same degree).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossmaxx View Post
    Oh, and by the way, you might be pleased to know that carbon fiber frames are reparable, whereas aluminum frames aren't (at least not to the same degree).
    I know I work with carbon . Alloy can be repaired but it takes more for it to get damaged . Where alloy bends before cracking, carbon breaks straightaway and it can also break on the inside of the frame without you knowing until one day - SNAP !!!

    I will be getting a carbon frame but it will be a whole new bike . Then if it gets damaged i can repair it quite easily .

  51. #51
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    26" wheels are fine . The SID fork has a damper in it already . The ceramic carbon brake rotor and Scrub rotor are proper rotors and the lightest you can get .

    My efforts to make an alloy bike lighter than most carbon bikes has been successful . .
    Please try and understand this .
    Last edited by Seb K; 02-27-2016 at 04:56 PM.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    Oh and 26" can still be ridden on the trails you just need a little thing called 'skill' .
    I agree with you, I'm still using my 26" Ibis Mojo SL and I'm having so much fun on it. But as you're running Furious Fred tires, I'm really curious as to how much skills your trails really require, I'm guessing not a lot. Why don't you post some pics of your bike in action on your trails? That would be cool to see.

  53. #53
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    Fair point . I think I will change the tyres as like Phlegm pointed out when he rode on his the grip isn't so great .

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    ...The SID fork has a damper in it already...
    Unless you've also changed the stock rebound rod/piston assembly, then you only have rebound damping (as you have removed the compression damper from the top of the fork). I would expect this to ride and perform atrociously out on the trails. Take a look here at what the system is like with the RCT3 damper and you'll get an idea of how just removing the comp damper is a recipe for a poorly performing fork.

    If you really wanted to go down this route you will need the new DIG rebound damper and then modify the DIG's mid valve to perform all compression damping duties. Even so, it is unlikely you will be able to tune this to match a well setup DIG/RCT3 combo. There's a reason why manufacturers gave up on the combined rebound/comp piston approach.

  55. #55
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    Cheers man . What do you think of the Shift Up rebound piston ?!!! I've heard people say it improves rebound (it also takes another 65grams off) .

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    I don't have any first hand experience with the Shift Up rebound piston. Can you find any info on what the piston looks like and its shim arrangement?

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    It may "improve" rebound. No idea if it actually does. However, it still needs a comp damper at the top of the fork to handle compression damping. To remove the comp damper altogether you would need their other kit that does both.

    I'm skeptical whenever I see a non-adjustable rebound damper. Rebound damping is their to damped fork extension. Fork extension is caused by the spring force. How much spring force a fork has determines how much rebound damping is required. Too much damping and the fork will pack down over successive hits, too little and it will feel like a pogo stick. Rider's vary in weight greatly, and so how much spring force (eg. pressure in an air shocks positive air chamber) is determined by rider weight and the % of sag the rider likes. With rebound damping, there is no such thing as "one size fits all".

  59. #59
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    Cheers man . I have actually modified the Motion Control damper . I posted a rebuild and modification I did a couple of months back . It was Pop Loc and I wanted it to be standard (to save weight) . So I drilled out the rivets, removed the spring and cut off the spring tabs . Then I tapped in a 3mm thread in the eyelts on the inside of the chamber . Then cut some titanium bolts in the lathe and used threadlock to secure them and bolted them into place . I then made a carbon fibre dial and drilled the centre and started to create the shape to allow it to grip the shaft (excuse me) . All in all I took away over 15grams off . If I do put it back in the fork it will be lighter than stock but brings my bike over 8kg (only by a few grams) . Do you think it's worth it to re install it or see how I go with this set up . According to the site their race team have raced with this set up with success (although not sure how biased they are) .

  60. #60
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    I'm skeptical whenever I see a non-adjustable rebound damper.
    There is a difference between internally adjustable and totally non-adjustable. The rebound damping is set in the selection of parts when you order the kit I believe having specified your weight/ riding style/ previous setups/ preferred sag etc.

    I am not XC racer weight at all (closer to 80kg), ride trails day to day that are more demanding than the usual XC course, with 15% sag and did not like the wooden feeling of my RCT3.... the kit as installed works perfectly for my criteria and is a real revelation compared to the stock fork performance. This is the kit with the compression damper too ("light" cartridge) but even so I can not say that the rebound is in any way lacking and performs exactly as I wished when ordering the kit

  61. #61
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    Loving it, Seb K!

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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    Regarding the carbon parts if I crash I can always replace the part but damaging the frame means having to get a whole new frame which is basically a whole new bike in my opinion . I can't justify that . Carbon works great for components but I'm not sold on their strength in a collision .
    *warning, incoming rant*

    Couldn't live with myself if I didn't respond to this. I can tell you have some experience working with carbon, which makes it very surprising your doubts on its strength. I'm a certified bike mechanic who's been at it awhile. And I can assure you, Carbon is better in every single way than alloy. I have yet to replace a customers carbon frame due to cracking. I've sent a few out to a carbon repair facility for evaluation, but even those didn't need anything after getting crashed and showed clear signs of impact.

    And, beyond that, alot of companies these days will just send you a new frame if it did crack. Hell, I had cannondale send over a replacement frame once just because of a defect in the paint. Also, we've been keeping a carbon frame sitting in the shop next to a hammer for the past 5 years to have customers wack the heck out of just to convince them of its strength before they go fork over money on a carbon bike. Paint is all chipped off, but still haven't fractured the frame.

    Anyway, want to take a gander at how many alloy frames over the years we've replaced cause of cracks and dents? A whole lot. I'm not trying to burst any bubbles here, and I get that you are proud of what you've done with your ride. But, don't chalk up your allegiance to alloy because of its structural integrity... because it's definitely extremely failure prone. You might as well try to get sub 8k with a large steel frame.

    Don't mean to offend at all here, but, I've spent many years working on bikes and selling them to people. And I've heard the "I would get carbon but I'm worried it will crack on me" argument so many times at this point that it makes me sick.

    *end rant*

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    Its good to hear from someone with a stack of really solid experience in this. You've expressed very clearly what a lot of us were feeling, but you have the evidence to back up what you say. Thank you

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    I'm wondering if he is actually using this bike. All the pictures are taken in some dark shed and he seems unaware of the implications of his tire choice (the Furious Freds). Until I see some pics of this bike actually being ridden on a trail, I won't be convinced that this bike is anything but an experimental showcase, in which case the discussion of carbon fiber vs. aluminum strength becomes pointless.

  65. #65
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    I've never once damaged an alloy frame . Granted it does happen but I have seen a lot of damaged carbon frames through forums also . The hammer on the frame videos I have seen make no sense as you are using a light tool . When body weight is taken into account and then you slam the frame against a rock at nearly 20mph then you will see the difference . I understand you guys withy your carbon frames and it's all great . I work with carbon so I love the material but will never be convinced on a mtb frame . On a road frame yes on a mtb no . Sorry .
    Last edited by Seb K; 03-15-2016 at 06:55 AM.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    I've never once damaged an alloy frame . Granted it does happen but I have seen a lot of damaged carbon frames through forums also . The hammer on the frame videos I have seen make no sense as you are using a light tool . When body weight is taken into account and then you slam the frame against a rock at nearly 20mph then you will see the difference . I understand you guys withy your carbon frames and it's all great . I work with carbon so I love the material but will never be convinced on a mtb frame . On a road frame yes on a mtb no . Sorry .
    But if you don't ride your bike, why not have a carbon frame? You won't damage a carbon frame by having it standing in your shed either.

  67. #67
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    It gets ridden and hasn't broken yet and still weighs less than most carbon bikes that i have seen .

  68. #68
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    The bike with the new Schmolke TLO bar (cut down and finished with carbon polish), lgos removed, Schmolke carbon plugs installed, custom ordered red Extraite grips, newly modified AX Lightness saddle with 24ct gold leaf logo and bottle cage removed with new carbon fibre grub screws I made from two Schmolke bolts that i cut in the lathe and deburred and thread locked into the bosses (same with what I did to the downtube bosses before) . Too exotic for the trails !!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage-dscn0250%5B1%5D.jpg  


  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RooBah View Post
    Loving it, Seb K!
    Cheers man !!!

  70. #70
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    The next time I see a picture of your bike...I expect to see it in daylight and with some mud on it.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    The next time I see a picture of your bike...I expect to see it in daylight and with some mud on it.
    Don't hold your breath.
    Death from Below.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    Don't hold your breath.
    Trolling again LeDuke .

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    Trolling again LeDuke .
    I don't think you know what trolling means. LeDuke's comment isn't trolling, it's what everybody here thinks. I don't know how many pics you've posted of that bike, and every single one has been in your dark shed resulting in crappy pics where you can barely see anything. If you're insisting on posting pics all the time, why is it so difficult for you to take them outdoors in daylight? I'm not even suggesting you need to take trail pics, as I don't believe this bike has ever seen the trail.

  74. #74
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    This has been an extremely interesting thread. Thanks to all who have participated.

    Amazing work, karimian. I'm kinda like the others in that I don't understand some of your decisions, but I can tell you're passionate and deriving much enjoyment from the project and that's ultimately what it's all about.

    Keep at it and happy trails,

    HDP

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossmaxx View Post
    I don't think you know what trolling means. LeDuke's comment isn't trolling, it's what everybody here thinks. I don't know how many pics you've posted of that bike, and every single one has been in your dark shed resulting in crappy pics where you can barely see anything. If you're insisting on posting pics all the time, why is it so difficult for you to take them outdoors in daylight? I'm not even suggesting you need to take trail pics, as I don't believe this bike has ever seen the trail.
    You, LeDuke and DanW are the only ones that have been on my case . If you don't like my work.........don't comment !!!

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    You, LeDuke and DanW are the only ones that have been on my case . If you don't like my work.........don't comment !!!
    Well, if you can't handle people's comments, maybe public forums are not the place for you. In my last comment, I gave you constructive feedback on how you can take better pictures, but like much else, I suppose you will ignore that and continue with cave pics.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossmaxx View Post
    Well, if you can't handle people's comments, maybe public forums are not the place for you. In my last comment, I gave you constructive feedback on how you can take better pictures, but like much else, I suppose you will ignore that and continue with cave pics.
    Oh I can handle people's comments . Making fun of my work I won't accept . LeDuke and DanW have been trolling me since the official WW site . You gave me constructive criticism on taking pictures and I agreed with your comment . Again if you don't like my work and think it's shi* then don't comment .

  78. #78
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    New air valves, seals and top black bore caps for the brake calipers . I think they look better and the brakes have better modulation now (previous air valve was sticking for some reason) .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage-dscn0180%5B1%5D.jpg  

    7.9kg alloy full suss in large with discbrakes, inner tubes and bottleage-dscn0182%5B1%5D.jpg  


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    Thanks for the mention :/

    Everyone has tried to give constructive input but unless anyone says what you want to hear you are not terribly receptive to feedback. When I post up my bikes it is for tips for improvements and to try and find things I haven't considered. The *internet* isn't a great place for universal approval but a good forum for discussion and improvement.

    You asked about lighter metal frames and I listed about 5, before you asserted yours is in the same ballpark without ever weighing it and refusing to acknowledge a potential 300-500g loss which would be kinda handy on a no holds barred WW project like this.

    Most have debated the practicality of the build and that is a matter of taste and suggested some other things to consider. Options and suggestions are always good. Embrace it

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-W View Post
    Thanks for the mention :/

    Everyone has tried to give constructive input but unless anyone says what you want to hear you are not terribly receptive to feedback. When I post up my bikes it is for tips for improvements and to try and find things I haven't considered. The *internet* isn't a great place for universal approval but a good forum for discussion and improvement.

    You asked about lighter metal frames and I listed about 5, before you asserted yours is in the same ballpark without ever weighing it and refusing to acknowledge a potential 300-500g loss which would be kinda handy on a no holds barred WW project like this.

    Most have debated the practicality of the build and that is a matter of taste and suggested some other things to consider. Options and suggestions are always good. Embrace it
    Fair point dude .

    One thing about those frames is I am going by what others on here have weighed . Eliflap has already weighed the Scalpel and it came in at 2.3kg which with my new DTSwiss shock makes my frame lighter . I believe the lightest metal frame would be scandium but then that's different . Also other members of the official WW site have weighed their alloy Stumpy frames which i have put in before .

    So to sum up my frame is in there as one of the lightest . Also I cannot find another alloy full suss bike (with disc brakes) that's lighter than mine .

  81. #81
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    Same as before: Until you actually weight your frame you are just guessing. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't ~300g to be had with at least some of the many frames I suggested as alternatives.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-W View Post
    Same as before: Until you actually weight your frame you are just guessing. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't ~300g to be had with at least some of the many frames I suggested as alternatives.
    There will be very little difference in the weight of my frame and the exact same model of another rider's frame .

  83. #83
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    I don't subscribe to the view that components that are light are therefore weak, but to get an alloy frame down to the weight of a carbon frame feels like it would mean its one of the most fragile frames, which is a little ironic

    Speaking of which, I have one of the lightest steel framed road bikes with steel rims that you will ever find. I built it when I was 17, and the components were the best I could afford. But jeez, that thing is heavy

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by karimian5 View Post
    There will be very little difference in the weight of my frame and the exact same model of another rider's frame .
    People will not let up until you weigh the frame. Its looks like you're constantly taking parts off to work on them anyways...so why not take a few more off and just weigh the frame?

    Besides...what weight weenie does not know the weight of their frame?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Besides...what weight weenie does not know the weight of their frame?
    One without a decent digiscale!

  86. #86
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    Fair points guys .

  87. #87
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    Yeah, the not having a digital scale to accurately weigh everything down to the gram kinda put this thread over the top for me.

    You obviously aren't hindered by budget, karimian, so why not get a proper scale?

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdparrish View Post
    Yeah, the not having a digital scale to accurately weigh everything down to the gram kinda put this thread over the top for me.

    You obviously aren't hindered by budget, karimian, so why not get a proper scale?
    I will when the bike is done .

  89. #89
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    Just ordered a carbon frame . By a Chinese company (A lot on here seem to have great sucess with them and I need a 26" which I cannot find for a good price) . It was 450.00 . When it arrives I will be sanding it right down and carbon polishing it . Also machining off any mounts that i don't want . It won't be here for a while (sigh) . When it does arrive I will weigh it, I will be installing the parts from the Stumpjumper onto it but I want to try it fully rigid . I can ride rigid bikes off road (requires a bit of skill but can be done) and I'm hoping to get the bike to at least 5.8kg . I will be using the 29" carbon fork I have (DT Swiss) which should raise the front end pretty well .

    What do you think - fully rigid or hardtail ?!!!

  90. #90
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    This thread gets weirder by the day. Subscribed.

  91. #91
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    Very surprised by the frame swap man! The hardtail or rigid question really comes down to your personal preference. But, based on it being a 26", hardtail would be my recommendation. You'd gain that extra traction on the front that the suspension gives, and avoid that bouncy ride you get from rigid, especially 26 rigid, since you don't have that "roll-over" effect that you get from 650b's and 29ers. But, would be worth throwing that dt swiss fork on just to check its weight.

    Also, you could consider doing the rigid setup if maybe you ran a wider tire setup with tubless and low air pressure. Something like 2.3, 2.4s running at sub 20psi. Would help with the traction and bouncy issue you get by running smaller tires with higher psi. I know you had the Fred's on there, but from an actual performance stance when going rigid, its worth going with bigger tires to combat the loss of traction.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdparrish View Post
    This thread gets weirder by the day. Subscribed.

    100% agree. I'm strapped in for the long haul as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hdparrish View Post
    This thread gets weirder by the day. Subscribed.
    At least it's entertaining!

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelV8V View Post
    I don't subscribe to the view that components that are light are therefore weak, but to get an alloy frame down to the weight of a carbon frame feels like it would mean its one of the most fragile frames, which is a little ironic

    Speaking of which, I have one of the lightest steel framed road bikes with steel rims that you will ever find. I built it when I was 17, and the components were the best I could afford. But jeez, that thing is heavy
    Or leave it as it is and have it stronger than the carbon frame .

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossmaxx View Post
    At least it's entertaining!
    Glad you like what I do .
    Last edited by Seb K; 03-18-2016 at 05:36 AM.

  96. #96
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    I didn't say I like it, I said I find it entertaining.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossmaxx View Post
    I didn't say I like it, I said I find it entertaining.
    Then don't comment on my post anymore then . You seem butthurt about my bike for some reason . That's you're choice anyhow ,

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCase View Post
    Very surprised by the frame swap man! The hardtail or rigid question really comes down to your personal preference. But, based on it being a 26", hardtail would be my recommendation. You'd gain that extra traction on the front that the suspension gives, and avoid that bouncy ride you get from rigid, especially 26 rigid, since you don't have that "roll-over" effect that you get from 650b's and 29ers. But, would be worth throwing that dt swiss fork on just to check its weight.

    Also, you could consider doing the rigid setup if maybe you ran a wider tire setup with tubless and low air pressure. Something like 2.3, 2.4s running at sub 20psi. Would help with the traction and bouncy issue you get by running smaller tires with higher psi. I know you had the Fred's on there, but from an actual performance stance when going rigid, its worth going with bigger tires to combat the loss of traction.
    TBH everyone keeps getting on my case to get a carbon frame so I might as well just get something not overly expensive to try out . I think 500.00 (including delivery) is a decent enough price for a rigid frame . I want to go fully rigid simply because I want the bike the lightest I can get it My Rockshox WC has the shift Up cap and a few more mods and it weighs 1290 grams exact whereas my DTSwiss weighs around 450 grams . The temptation to use the rigid fork overlooks the performance degradation of it in comparison to having something to soak up the bumps . I also know full well i can handle a fully rigid bike on the trails and even in a race - it just takes a little more skill and you have to use your arms and legs for 'suspension' .

    I don't know man . I hate these kind of decisions !!!

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    people are questioning your right and left because things dont make sense for a lot of reasons.

    I could go on for a while but it's not worth my time cause I'm really not sure if this is just a gag and you actually ride the thing but you spend 1200 on a set of brakes but only 500 on the frame now??? Ask anyone if their frame is over twice the price of their brake set...

    you say you are afraid of a carbon 'frame' bike but then you buy a no name direct chinese frame? doesn't make sense, get something someone will stand behind if you are concerrned you've said many times money is not a cocern many times

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pezzer View Post
    people are questioning your right and left because things dont make sense for a lot of reasons.

    I could go on for a while but it's not worth my time cause I'm really not sure if this is just a gag and you actually ride the thing but you spend 1200 on a set of brakes but only 500 on the frame now??? Ask anyone if their frame is over twice the price of their brake set...

    you say you are afraid of a carbon 'frame' bike but then you buy a no name direct chinese frame? doesn't make sense, get something someone will stand behind if you are concerrned you've said many times money is not a cocern many times
    TBH I don't like the idea myself . I'm only getting it to try it as people keep MOANING at me to try it . i can still cancel the order as it's from overseas and they haven't processed it yet .

    BTW you are talking about a bike I haven't started building yet . My present frame was 1500.00 .



    Cheers .

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