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  1. #1
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    Where in the PNW is that trail?!

    Stumbled across this little-seen video on Youtube tonight, and like the commenter from a year ago, wonder where the trail in this video is. Any suggestions? Some of the shots here are absolutely stunning, wherever this is I'd love to put it on my "I want to go to there" list.

    Northwest Mountain Biking

  2. #2
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    Don't know what the trail is (not that there's really a trail), but that's Shuksan at 1:11 and Baker shortly after, so it has to be to the north, off the Nooksack River somewhere.

    In fact, unless I'm mistaken (judging by terrain features and my topo maps), that's a big poach inside the wilderness boundary. Can't say that I really approve of it, if it is.
    Last edited by Agate; 05-03-2012 at 11:35 PM.

  3. #3
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    Canyon Ridge Trail?

    Could it be the Canyon Ridge Trail? I'm mostly just going off the description: views of Baker/Shuksan, one of few trails in the area open to mountain bikes.

  4. #4
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    No, that's on the north side of the Nooksack, and the video is definitely shot much closer to Baker. Was my first thought/hope as well.

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    Agate is right. If I remember correctly, Transition was shooting a video and ended up riding in some areas where they shouldn't of been.

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    Beat me to it Schlitz. The shiny new Trans Am and slick production were the dead giveaway. I remember that controversy. Never have ridden Canyon Ridge 'cuz it's a long way for a short push.

  7. #7
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    My first thoughts were that this is a Transition promotional video, it's around Baker, and it sure looks like wilderness. Bummer that the later was right. Did the feds catch up with Transition or something?

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    My understanding is the Forest Service went to Transition's offices and fined the rider. Can't say for sure whether that's what really happened but that was the rumor I heard after this debacle went down........

  9. #9
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    for a ride like that...i'd pay two fines.

  10. #10
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    Poaching scumbag, if I see that scrawny little baddie, I'm gonna kick his ass and bend his bike around a tree.

  11. #11
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    If only "parts" of that ride are legal, I'd like to know which parts. Amazing country. Makes me want to ride the Alps where bikes are welcome in this kind of terrain.

  12. #12
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    Pretty sure that none of it is. And if any is, it would be the stuff right at the very end of the movie.

  13. #13
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    Such a bummer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
    Makes me want to ride the Alps where bikes are welcome in this kind of terrain.
    This was basically my reaction when I first watched it. Really disappointed to hear it's not totally legit.

    On the other hand, being able to get such quick answers here is great. Thanks for that.

  14. #14
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    AAAH'merica. Land of the Free*

    <font size=1>*Dramatization. Restrictions may apply. Freedom not available in some areas.</font>
    trust the tread

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  15. #15
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    Ever hear a passing comment of a rider saying XC sucks. You have the 1984 revision to the Wilderness Designation re-phrasing non-motorized to non-mechanized to thank for that. A video like this really shows why.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjamo View Post
    Poaching scumbag, if I see that scrawny little baddie, I'm gonna kick his ass and bend his bike around a tree.
    Yeah, totally. Did you see how many old women and babies he almost hit on the trail? Especially bad was the part where he scared a horse and rider right off the side of the rock face. I'm pretty sure I saw at least 5 or 6 wolverines die in terror at the sight of the bike and rider, and another 8 get rolled over by his tires.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    Ever hear a passing comment of a rider saying XC sucks. You have the 1984 revision to the Wilderness Designation re-phrasing non-motorized to non-mechanized to thank for that. A video like this really shows why.
    To clarify, the Wilderness Act wasn't revised. The administrative interpretation of the phrase 'mechanize transport' was changed.

    As much as I'm opposed to new Wilderness and think trails should be objectively evaluated for use on a trail by trail basis instead of blanket closure, that's pretty f'n lame to poach wilderness for ad footage. I find it hard to believe such a mistake could be made honestly.

  18. #18
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    It looks like more then one trail edited together. I ski Baker alot and if that shot at 1:18 is not Ptarmigan ridge & Coleman pinnacle heading up Mt. Baker then I'm a monkeys uncle, and yes thats in a wilderness area.

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    not good

    On top of the fact that they are poaching WA trails, we have to watch a lame a$$ rider make his way down, dragging brakes and messing up every trail touched.

    Nice, very classy

  20. #20
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    Ya I call bulls**t on that, the punk ass kid and
    the camera guy both needs their ass kicked
    if ask you ask me,
    sh*t heads like that is why we get trails closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kliemann53 View Post
    if that shot at 1:18 is not Ptarmigan ridge & Coleman pinnacle heading up Mt. Baker then I'm a monkeys uncle, and yes thats in a wilderness area.
    Nope, not Ptarmigan Ridge or Coleman Pinnacle.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonecrow View Post
    Ya I call bulls**t on that, the punk ass kid and
    the camera guy both needs their ass kicked
    if ask you ask me,
    sh*t heads like that is why we get trails closed.
    I call bulls**t on this stupid comment.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by king2005 View Post
    On top of the fact that they are poaching WA trails, we have to watch a lame a$$ rider make his way down, dragging brakes and messing up every trail touched.

    Nice, very classy
    Got any video of your skills?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cornish_game View Post
    I call bulls**t on this stupid comment.

    I call BS on you posting video of you hacking your way down illegal trails. At least learn to ride first. Then, start lifting weights noodle arms.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cornish_game View Post
    Nope, not Ptarmigan Ridge or Coleman Pinnacle.
    Gave yourself away there pretty easily Mr. Noodle Arms

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonecrow View Post
    Ya I call bulls**t on that, the punk ass kid and
    the camera guy both needs their ass kicked
    if ask you ask me,
    sh*t heads like that is why we get trails closed.
    I'm not advocating poaching but that's certainly not the reason we get trails closed. You sound like a fanatic. Use some logic and intelligence and maybe you'll win more people over.

  27. #27
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    I've gotta say that the introduction of darthjamo into the WA forum has been nothing but comical. Flipper is that you?

  28. #28
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    It's Cougar Divide. Scenic for sure but if I was going to poach I'm sure I could come up with at least a dozen better options.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
    Yeah, totally. Did you see how many old women and babies he almost hit on the trail? Especially bad was the part where he scared a horse and rider right off the side of the rock face. I'm pretty sure I saw at least 5 or 6 wolverines die in terror at the sight of the bike and rider, and another 8 get rolled over by his tires.
    I get your point, but MTB community needs to understand that it's not just about user conflict or fauna that enviros can use against us. I cringed when I saw the rider free riding right over alpine ground covers like it were the same thing as dirt surface. I could totally see the W proponents and hiker groups using footages like at 6:35 to argue why MTBs should never be allowed on primitive trails.

    Evergreen is trying to stick it back to the hikers by saying that mountain biking is arguably the most "trail bound" sport among the non-motorized rec community and therefore has less of impact on environment, as versus hiking, fishing & hunting, horseback riding, scrambling, climbing, etc. that often include off-trail excursions. It's too bad that videos like this continue to set us all back.

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    its been posted about in the transition blog before (Breaking The Law! Breaking the Law!!)

    its been a few years and seems like this should have been put to rest by now.

  31. #31
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    Not sure if it will ever be "put to rest" so long as the video is on the public domain...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Awake View Post
    its been posted about in the transition blog before (Breaking The Law! Breaking the Law!!)

    its been a few years and seems like this should have been put to rest by now.
    Thanks for the link. I'm happy to see the rider's apparently sincere remarks regarding the video.

    I have to disagree that this should have been put to rest by now simply because I don't recall this story getting much attention when it first broke a couple years ago. In fact this is the first I've heard about it and I suspect this is true for other folks as well.

    As others have pointed out, poaching wilderness isn't doing us any good in terms of getting or maintaining access: be it in Wilderness or other areas. Anti biking environmentalists eat this stuff up and uses it against us. I think the current legal interpretation of the Wilderness act is wrong. In theory I am all in favor of wilderness designation because I think maintaining pristine, wild places is a worthwhile investment for a variety of reasons. However since classifying an area as wilderness excludes mountain bikes I have to vehemently say "no" to wilderness. I still support the general concept of wilderness and so I believe that the Wilderness act should be revised to ensure mountain bike access to these areas. The forces are stacked against us as it is so we can't give the anti biking lobby any more opportunities for spreading their brand of propaganda.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
    Not sure if it will ever be "put to rest" so long as the video is on the public domain...
    Yeah i know what you're sayin.

    Picked up on all of the points you raised.

    Reminds me though of anytime i see a mountain bike on a television commercial it typically show a rider tearing it up, powersliding, then high fiving like a bunch of d-bags.

    Not typical of your typical backcountry rider experience.

    You can easily edit that video showing 99% of that ride where the rider is huffing and puffing, and staying on trail and checking out the scenery, until the camera guy get's set up and says "OK now do something cool, so we can sell bikes".

    i think most mt. bikers understand this frame of reference, and everybody who doesn't have an existing bias should understand this as well.

    i prefer to sell the notion of the video illustrating beautiful terrain we are kept from. i'd rather let peoples imagination wander to the fact that we do seek wild beautiful places to ride in, wouldn't it be cool. And hope that people explore and understand more of the status quo.

    And perhaps challenge it.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    To clarify, the Wilderness Act wasn't revised. The administrative interpretation of the phrase 'mechanize transport' was changed.

    As much as I'm opposed to new Wilderness and think trails should be objectively evaluated for use on a trail by trail basis instead of blanket closure, that's pretty f'n lame to poach wilderness for ad footage. I find it hard to believe such a mistake could be made honestly.
    "Like"

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    that's pretty f'n lame to poach wilderness for ad footage. I find it hard to believe such a mistake could be made honestly.
    Likely true, the rider should have been ignored, and the company should have been fined. Didn't bother to read the other webbe post, but it's quite possible the camera guy and rider representing the camera were completely at fault though.

    But here's a thought.

    We have a couple bike companies up there in Bellingham. They have some XC bikes they want to sell. They want a video shot of a bike riding through pristine area with epic views to showcase the beautiful terrain of the Pacific Northwest.

    Ok so what are the options. Galbraith? Well it's got good views but only because of the massive clearcut. That's not good. Well howzabout State Park land, we could hop across the pond to Orcas and shoot on Mt. Constitution. No wait nevermind it's closed to bikes during Summer. Well how about DNR land, see North Fork Can of Worms. Well there are thousands and thousand of miles of trail in the North Cascades? Howzabout a trail within the Baker district. Hmm apparently there's only ONE trail open, and it's a motorized trail, lots of steeps, a few open spots for views, but meh... Let's find one that is a non-motorized trail, that afford spectacular views, that capture the imagination of mt. bikers as a serene fun day of enjoying riding on your bike.

    Here's what happens, you type that into the search engine, and you tell me how many trails come back. i can think of two, Cutthroat 6 miles of trail, and the Staircase 1 mile squished inbetween all motorized access. All on the Eastern Washington side near Winthrop.

    My point is we are all living in a scenario where we have been left with the crumbs.

    Maybe it's just possible that most mt. bikers still don't comprehend that fully. And not that it's an excuse, but perhaps when someone at the bike company put the challenge out there to "whoever" to spot a shoot under the requirements i listed above. That that challenge is practically impossible.

    And that's the real crime.
    Last edited by Skookum; 05-06-2012 at 06:39 AM.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post

    As much as I'm opposed to new Wilderness and think trails should be objectively evaluated for use on a trail by trail basis instead of blanket closure, that's pretty f'n lame to poach wilderness for ad footage. I find it hard to believe such a mistake could be made honestly.
    This x10. There are wilderness areas, especially in my neck of the woods that are getting almost no use (maybe what some people really want) and the trails are falling apart/disappearing. I personally feel some areas would be better off without bikes for sure, while others could benefit from our stewardship and use. Oh well...

    Pretty poor judgement on this video.

  37. #37
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    This x100. Well said.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
    I'm not advocating poaching but that's certainly not the reason we get trails closed. You sound like a fanatic. Use some logic and intelligence and maybe you'll win more people over.
    Logic and intelligence don't seem to help much against many of the anti bike people.

  39. #39
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    You're preaching to the choir, the lack of mtn bike access to National Forest lands up there is ridiculous. I've heard plenty of stories of people poaching trails that should in fact be legal. There's a big difference IMO between that, and a local company filming the poach and using it in their marketing. That's what's lame. I didn't read the other thread, but if Transition hasn't publicly apologized to the mtn bike community, they should be, as well as pulling that footage down. A local company should exhibit better judgment. Kinda funny they'd do this and then be involved in the safe the north fork deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    Yeah i know what you're sayin.

    Picked up on all of the points you raised.

    Reminds me though of anytime i see a mountain bike on a television commercial it typically show a rider tearing it up, powersliding, then high fiving like a bunch of d-bags.

    Not typical of your typical backcountry rider experience.

    You can easily edit that video showing 99% of that ride where the rider is huffing and puffing, and staying on trail and checking out the scenery, until the camera guy get's set up and says "OK now do something cool, so we can sell bikes".

    i think most mt. bikers understand this frame of reference, and everybody who doesn't have an existing bias should understand this as well.

    i prefer to sell the notion of the video illustrating beautiful terrain we are kept from. i'd rather let peoples imagination wander to the fact that we do seek wild beautiful places to ride in, wouldn't it be cool. And hope that people explore and understand more of the status quo.

    And perhaps challenge it.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    I didn't read the other thread, but if Transition hasn't publicly apologized to the mtn bike community, they should be, as well as pulling that footage down. A local company should exhibit better judgment. Kinda funny they'd do this and then be involved in the safe the north fork deal.
    Perhaps you should read their blog thread then.

    Those guys pulled their vid when this happened, then met with the local USFS bosses down in Sedro and 100% resolved it with them. They (Transition) even attempted to figure out a way to open up other trails (non-wilderness) to bikes around Glacier, but it was pretty futile. How do I know? Because I attended the meeting with them. I can tell you that the sanctimonious folks on mtbr are certainly making a bigger deal of it then the officials that we met with at the USFS.

    The single trail that is open to mt. bikers on USFS land along the 542 is clear of snow for less than 2 months, is open to mt. bikers on odd days and has historically been unmaintained and a total bushwhack (the trail gets lost in several spots). Even most of the hardcore types up here have tried it once and usually never go back. Perhaps fixing that trail (with major, major re-routes) is the opportunity to get our foot in the door up here? Not sure, but there just wasn't a lot of interest in working on it when I suggested it a couple years ago.

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    I said if they haven't apologized they should. Sounds like they've done right.

    A Canyon Creek reroute would be a good project, at least to get a mtn bike foot in the door on USFS lands up there. I'd come up for a work party on that. I haven't ridden/hiked that trail yet, pics I've seen show promise though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Perhaps you should read their blog thread then.

    Those guys pulled their vid when this happened, then met with the local USFS bosses down in Sedro and 100% resolved it with them. They (Transition) even attempted to figure out a way to open up other trails (non-wilderness) to bikes around Glacier, but it was pretty futile. How do I know? Because I attended the meeting with them. I can tell you that the sanctimonious folks on mtbr are certainly making a bigger deal of it then the officials that we met with at the USFS.

    The single trail that is open to mt. bikers on USFS land along the 542 is clear of snow for less than 2 months, is open to mt. bikers on odd days and has historically been unmaintained and a total bushwhack (the trail gets lost in several spots). Even most of the hardcore types up here have tried it once and usually never go back. Perhaps fixing that trail (with major, major re-routes) is the opportunity to get our foot in the door up here? Not sure, but there just wasn't a lot of interest in working on it when I suggested it a couple years ago.

    EB

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Perhaps you should read their blog thread then.

    Those guys pulled their vid when this happened, then met with the local USFS bosses down in Sedro and 100% resolved it with them. They (Transition) even attempted to figure out a way to open up other trails (non-wilderness) to bikes around Glacier, but it was pretty futile. How do I know? Because I attended the meeting with them. I can tell you that the sanctimonious folks on mtbr are certainly making a bigger deal of it then the officials that we met with at the USFS.

    The single trail that is open to mt. bikers on USFS land along the 542 is clear of snow for less than 2 months, is open to mt. bikers on odd days and has historically been unmaintained and a total bushwhack (the trail gets lost in several spots). Even most of the hardcore types up here have tried it once and usually never go back. Perhaps fixing that trail (with major, major re-routes) is the opportunity to get our foot in the door up here? Not sure, but there just wasn't a lot of interest in working on it when I suggested it a couple years ago.

    EB

    Gimme a friggin' break. If Transition still hasn't hired you as a PR-spin/apologist guy by now, they're getting a decent deal on free pio.

    Transition only went to Sedro after being paid a visit by USFS law enforcement at Transition's offices. How do I know this? Because I'm the guy who sent them a copy of the promo vid in question back then, and later discussed it with a couple of officials. I also recall Transition's "Oh golly, those trails are in Wilderness?! We had no idea!" defense at the time. That was also part of their blog when it all shook out. The rider could have just as easily been written up for simply riding off the trail - as seen in the parts where the "scree-surfing" occurs - as riding on a trail within a Wilderness boundary.

    I get wanting to ride the stuff up there. Incredible trails in incredible terrain. All too aware of that as someone who lived and worked in that area as a USFS employee. I even contacted Transition first back then, by email and phone, and pretty much got blown off. It was a willful poach and they thought they'd pull it off since I'm guessing they believed no one who'd see the video would turn them in for it. And I probably wouldn't have had it not been for the scree surfing crap and their attitude when I tried to talk to them about it.

    I know Transition has a lot of fans here, I know they make some fine equipment, and they do put in a lot of time on the ground trail building and advocacy wise. But no one is perfect, and in this instance they screwed up. That isn't going away just because you feel some need to ride to their defense.
    If you go looking for trouble, you can be sure it's gaining from behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Perhaps you should read their blog thread then.

    Those guys pulled their vid when this happened, then met with the local USFS bosses down in Sedro and 100% resolved it with them. They (Transition) even attempted to figure out a way to open up other trails (non-wilderness) to bikes around Glacier, but it was pretty futile. How do I know? Because I attended the meeting with them. I can tell you that the sanctimonious folks on mtbr are certainly making a bigger deal of it then the officials that we met with at the USFS.

    The single trail that is open to mt. bikers on USFS land along the 542 is clear of snow for less than 2 months, is open to mt. bikers on odd days and has historically been unmaintained and a total bushwhack (the trail gets lost in several spots). Even most of the hardcore types up here have tried it once and usually never go back. Perhaps fixing that trail (with major, major re-routes) is the opportunity to get our foot in the door up here? Not sure, but there just wasn't a lot of interest in working on it when I suggested it a couple years ago.

    EB

    You just don't get it. Glacier and Northfork are in the same boat. People building trails without permisson, and then when they get caught they say " it's the man keepin' bikers down". Gimmie a break, learn proper channels and lose the entitled attude.

    More than once I've heard you guys say " it's easier to ask forgiveness than permisson", well... your wrong! Grow up.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjamo View Post
    More than once I've heard you guys say " it's easier to ask forgiveness than permisson", well... your wrong! Grow up.
    What guys? More than once could mean the same person saying it repeatedly. Unless you have some material to cite you still sound like you're grasping at straws. Grouping every mountain biker into the same category.

    Are you prejudice against an ethnicity of people because you saw someone get convicted of murder? Do you think all white people are alcoholics because youve seen a few get drunk before?

    You have an obvious bias against mountain bikers for some reason. I doubt we'll ever really know why. You're bitterness and hatred is apparent. For that reason alone, nobody will put any serious thought into what you have to say.

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    You have an obvious bias against mountain bikers for some reason. I doubt we'll ever really know why. You're bitterness and hatred is apparent. For that reason alone, nobody will put any serious thought into what you have to say.

    You' re kind of stupid aren't you.

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    Yanno, if the person who posted this on YouTube would just use a little common sense and take it down, people probably wouldn't be talking about this at all anymore.

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    Nobody can deny that some of the best legal mountain bike trails were originally either;
    • Illegally built (i.e. without the property owners permission)
    • Not open to bikes (i.e. poaching).


    Perhaps not relevant to this discussion, but I remember being a kid and building jumps and trails in the vacant lots down the street. Was it legal to ride bikes there? Did the property owners approve of my trail construction? Did I ask for permission or submit plans? No, Probably not. Mountain biking is not golf, but it sure has gotten a lot closer to golf in the last decade.

    Everybody has to make their own decisions. If you are ethically conflicted about building or riding trails which aren't explicitly marked as legally open for bicycling, then stay away from those trails. If you are ethically conflicted about videos on youtube, don't watch them. Criticizing others is not likely to change their viewpoint, or anybody elses.

    It's great that everybody here is passionate, but it's pretty hypocritical to criticize the viewpoints of others. Lets not forget this sport was basically illegal in the first place, and riding in the sport's birthplace has only become less legal since then.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjamo View Post
    More than once I've heard you guys say " it's easier to ask forgiveness than permisson", well... your wrong! Grow up.
    What guys? More than once could mean the same person saying it repeatedly. Unless you have some material to cite you still sound like you're grasping at straws. Grouping every mountain biker into the same category.

    Are you prejudice against an ethnicity of people because you saw someone get convicted of murder? Do you think all white people are alcoholics because youve seen a few get drunk before?

    You have an obvious bias against mountain bikers for some reason. I doubt we'll ever really know why. You're bitterness and hatred is apparent. For that reason alone, nobody will put any serious thought into what you have to say.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjamo View Post
    You just don't get it. Glacier and Northfork are in the same boat. People building trails without permisson, and then when they get caught they say " it's the man keepin' bikers down". Gimmie a break, learn proper channels and lose the entitled attude.

    More than once I've heard you guys say " it's easier to ask forgiveness than permisson", well... your wrong! Grow up.
    From my experience, a lot of trail networks start off with a level of gray and/or are unauthorized. Not that I know about building trail or anything. One doesn't have to look far......Dry Hill, Tokul (Glenn is working this out with Hancock), Black Diamond, Tolt-McDonald, Tower of Power (also in the works), Galbraith, Harry Osborne Forest, Hush Hush and DBD on C-nut, some trails on Blanchard, etc. Should I go on? These trails and areas would not even be considered for mt. biking if trails didn't already exist on them. That's not based on interweb conjecture or some holier than thou attitude, it's based in reality.

    Interesting that you mention Glacier and the North Fork.

    The Glacier builders have formed a non-profit, secured insurance and are about to sign a user agreement with Sierra Pacific that allows them to continue to ride and build trail out there. I don't want to jinx them because it's not a done-deal, but I can tell you the feedback/red-lines have already been sent back from SPI (and were reasonable) and that agreement should (hopefully) be signed in the next month.

    North Fork - We've now met with the NW district boss 3 times in the past month and Mark Mauren's boss from Oly came up for a meeting on Thursday....these guys could just as easily send their minions, but this has become a priority for the DNR. Things are getting worked out - albeit at a snail's pace - with the goal to move the NF towards legitimacy. There are no guarantees, and its not gonna be overnight, that's for sure. Until then, I'll just ride my DH bike in other areas.....that is, if they even exist!

    North20, we all know you narced on them....you didn't need to out yourself. I'm not an apologist for those guys. Poaching and filming was stupid. They're big boys and can take care of themself.. Cam got fined already, they took the video down and had a meeting with USFS officials to see if there were other potential opportunities. It was left on a positive note. Not sure who grabbed the vid and put it on youtube, but as far as the USFS is concerned, this incident is over with. You can call Otis Allen at the Sedro Office to discuss at length if you'd like.

    Cheers,
    EB

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    If you are ethically conflicted about building or riding trails which aren't explicitly marked as legally open for bicycling, then stay away from those trails. If you are ethically conflicted about videos on youtube, don't watch them.
    Granted, many of the most popular hiking trails around here were also created illegally, and yet they get published in hiking guides as if they are legally built trails and land management agencies have tendencies to legalize these more often than doing the same for illegally built mountain bike trails. Having this said, illegal trail building and riding by others unfortunately do become my business even if I don't poach illegal trails or watch video of the same if I am trying to convince nay sayers that mountain biking does belong both in front country as well as backcountry. Some people do try to take high road because, fair or unfair, pointing fingers at the other side and yelling that they do the same thing creates very little credibility with anyone and only goes so far.

    Lets not forget this sport was basically illegal in the first place, and riding in the sport's birthplace has only become less legal since then.
    I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here. If you are talking about , it was NOT illegal to ride trails in the Wilderness until the administrative interpretation of "mechanized transport" changed to include bicycles, as others have already stated. If you are speaking about front country, it was also NOT illegal to ride trails on Cougar, Tiger, Redmond Watershed, etc. etc. until mountain biking was explicitly excluded from permitted activities in 80's and 90's. If you are taking about the type of riding that developed in more recent years represented in areas such as North Fork Nooksak, some of the "Exits" around here, or other privately owned land, then I guess "illegal in the first place" statement may have some accuracy.

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