Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mfronk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    43

    Surprise! Canned response from a race promoter.

    I emailed the race promoter for the cascadia cup enduros to find out if they were providing shuttles for the final race and if they weren't, why the race cost the same as thoses that provide shuttles. And of course I get the canned response, 'Thanks for your interest. There will be no shuttles at chuckanut. There will be a review of the race process at the end of the season to make changes' (paraphased). Looks like this will be the last time I pay $75 to go for a ride.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Tarekith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,159
    I thought the point of an enduro race was that you were supposed to climb, but with a reasonable time cutoff?
    Tarekith.com

    '12 RM Slayer70, i9 Torch, Flow EX, XT Brakes, 5050 s3.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    369
    I'm pretty sure $75 is a competitive entrance fee compared to events like triathlons, adventure races, and such. Did you notice the operating company donates their profits back to the organization that maintains the trails? Maybe they'll take the next step in future years and offer you reduced entrance fees for YOUR trail work hours?

  4. #4
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,271
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    That's really a shame, you had a good shot at winning open enduro DOOCHEBAG class!
    OK, maybe a little harsh. But seriously have you considered how many volunteer hours have gone into building & maintaining trails for these events, working with the DNR & parks dept's to get approvals, and getting the trails back to original condition after the event?

    Unless these events ultimately benefit the trails raced on, they shouldn't be happening in my opinion.

  5. #5
    i'm schralping yer thread
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    839
    Quote Originally Posted by mfronk1 View Post
    Looks like this will be the last time I pay $75 to go for a ride.
    You should wait for next year when they get the lift service up and running at Larrabee. Really.

  6. #6
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,540
    Yep, GeePhroh nailed it....I heard there's gonna be a chairlift next year which should totally make the "enduro experience" for ya!

    Woot!

  7. #7
    EMBA Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    176
    The volunteers putting on the race are all LOCALS and at least 3K from each race was given DIRECTLY to the local non-profit working on the trail system.

    There is no shuttling in enduro.

  8. #8
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,540
    I'm currently filling out my SIXTH permit for this race, so I don't have time to go into detail, but I can just say this.

    It took me more than 6 months and a half dozen meetings to get this race permitted and it's our first ever race at Larrabee. The WMBC is entering a very cool relationship with the park that will also include a lot of future trail projects, so in order to help get them comfortable with bike races in their park, we elected to not push for shuttling this year. We might try for it next year or we very well may not.

    All enduro's aren't the same - which is what I feel makes the format so rad. Some have shuttles or chairlifts and some don't. Tiger mountain didn't have shuttles either. Even the EWS had different formats for all of their races this year.

    Our course is gonna be a typical B'ham locals style ride (minus the ride from home that we often do). We feel that most will love it, but some might be cursing us by the end of the day.

    One thing's for sure.....it's gonna be a Chuckanut style enduro, so bring your fitness and big boy pants, mfronk1!

    Cheers,
    EB

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    19
    In all honesty, I don't think there should be any shuttling in Enduro racing. The intent of the Enduro format, as I understand it, is to provide a balance between technical ability (the DH portion) and endurance (the 'grueling' transition stages) so that riders from various backgrounds have a fair shot at doing well. Otherwise, isn't it basically just a DH race that allows more than one run?

    Regardless of the demands of transition stages there is still a bit of advantage to those that can ride DH fast since that is what's timed. I suppose the thought is that if you don't have enough overall fitness and endurance than you'll ride sloppy and lose time. That's where the 'Endur' part of Endur-o fits in. The 'o' stands for "Oh Sh*t!" as you go hurtling towards a tree.

    A quick check of the Merriam-Webster dictionary reveals the following definition of Endure; 1. last, persist 2. to suffer firmly or patiently 3. tolerate. Nope, shuttling doesn't fit into that definition.

    Anywho, I've seen a glimpse or two of what kind of work goes into promoting these events. The amount of volunteers and time involved is crazy. Nevermind the fact that Cascadia GIVES BACK a sizeable chuck of cash to those that maintain the trails used! I personally am happy to make the contribution of $75 to participate in such an event and hope to see more of these in the future.
    ---------Wolfman82---------
    "Mtnwolf82" on Youtube

  10. #10
    North Van/Whistler
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,610
    mfronk1 - late entry strong contender for d i c k head of the year 2013!!!
    Locals' Guide to North Shore Rides http://mtbtrails.ca/

  11. #11
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,271
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman82 View Post
    In all honesty, I don't think there should be any shuttling in Enduro racing.
    Silver lining here. I agree with you, but a timed event that combines rally car racing to the top with a MTB descent would be psick!

    nicolas vouilloz would dominate!

  12. #12
    I should be out riding
    Reputation: ACree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,442
    Carl Decker would also do well.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rdhfreethought's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Silver lining here. I agree with you, but a timed event that combines rally car racing to the top with a MTB descent would be psick!

    nicolas vouilloz would dominate!
    ^this!!!!

    Tiger was my first Enduro, after running all seven NWCUP DH races. Not once on the climbs did I think it was out of place. Sometimes I wondered WTH I was doing out there in the rain on some trail that went down before it went up again (T3), but never did I think it was out of place.

    I will definitely do more CDC next year, and can't wait to see what the WIMPS (WMBC | Just another WordPress.com site) have set up for us up in B'ham.
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington, Montana, Idaho, South Africa

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mfronk1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    43
    I think some people mis-understood the original post. It isn't that I think there shouldn't be any climbing in an enduro race, it is that I wanted to know why the races cost that same as the others that offered shuttles and the response I got didn't answer the question. It was the, 'I don't have time for this but it looks worse if I don't send anything at all' response. That is it. I don't know where anyone got the fact that the original post was pushing for lift access or I that it is a dick head request to ask where the difference in the money goes. People need to take the time to read and process information before they start throwing juvenile remarks around.

  15. #15
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,271
    Oh, OK. I guess we misread your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfronk1 View Post
    Looks like this will be the last time I contribute $75 to local trail development.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr. Lynch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,116
    Did some of the other events have shuttles? It was my understanding you climb up and ride down on all the stages.

    I did the Tiger Event the last 2 years and i think my only issue with the format is the amount of time allowed to finish. It is WAY too generous. At Tiger you were given 4 hours. We went SLOW on the transition stages and still had 2 hours left. Cut the time limit in half and get a little bit of fitness involved.

    I know of several races out of state where you shuttle or use a lift to access the start, or sometimes to get to a big final stage. The WHistler Enduro race use the Top of the World Trail and there is no way you can really ride up to the
    start of that Stage!
    13 SJ Evo, 14 Aurum, 14 Fatboy, 15 P.3

  17. #17
    Rock Gnome
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    292
    4 hours seemed about right for Tiger. I too took easy on the transitions to save my legs, but there were others that needed every bit of the 4 hour time alotment due to their fitness level. But at least they're out there doing the race, hopefully having a blast, and challenging themselves and that's what the enduro format is about.

    Besides if you finished early, then it just meant that much more time in the beer garden and that's not a bad thing.

    Regarding the cost of the race: With the money going back to the local trail crews, I think the price is justified and it's right in that sweet spot.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,652
    Costs can vary quite a bit from venue to venue, I would imagine that the cost for getting the shuttle trucks set up is not a huge part of the cost. More is probably spent in the permits, paying for tents, workers, etc. I bet in most places the trucks for shuttles are donated. Might cost a lot more to run an event at Larabee than Tiger, I dunno.

  19. #19
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,540
    At the end of the day, shuttles cost money for sure. Truck rentals, gas, people to drive them, etc....plus they're a logistical issue.

    The CDC never intended to have all of the races follow the same format. In fact, when we first organized last Fall, most wanted to have zero shuttling. It just so happens that some of the venues/routes work better for shuttling and it also serves as a bit of extra incentive to offer it for racers.

    As explained, we never intended to have shuttling at Chuckanut nor did Evergreen at Tiger. We knew we'd get a solid amount of riders without it and, more importantly, it wasn't in the cards for this year with State Parks....maybe ever. If we had held it at Galby, it would'nt have included shuttling either and racers should consider B'ham an unlikely shuttle location going forward.

    Mfronk1, as noted above, the CDC is being run entirely by and for the advocacy community in each area. Evergreen, Olympic Dirt Society, Cold Creek Mt. bikers, FOCF and the WMBC are benefiting while attempting to put on a great series in our first year. In fact, any money that we (WMBC) save on overall race costs for our event goes back to the club - which goes back to the trail projects we have in the hopper.

    If you'd prefer to not do the Chuckanut race due to the lack of shuttles, please let me know and I'll have the CDC refund your money and plug someone in who will have fun at our event.

    Cheers,
    EB

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    371
    Why not make it $100 to race so the we get an extra 4-5Kish for the trails!!!
    With the ability to do trail work before the race with $20 off the race cost for each day you built, But max $40 off, cuz putting these on does cost money!!

    Trails don't build themselves m'erica

    FM- You say what I can't!!!
    Epic trails get built in the Northwest by epic people!

    Sustainable quality trails please.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    204
    Let's all sing -

    The Spirit of Enduro !

    (Does anyone else have that stuck in their head ? )

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    Endure - Oh!

  23. #23
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,540
    Sold out, folks!

    mfronk1, let me know if you still need to get a refund.

    Cheers,
    EB

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2
    Ran this race on Sunday, and felt that it wasn't as well run as it could be. First, I had a great time on some fantastic trails, and hung out with great folks all day. We went to the "Shoot The Trails" event the night before, and that too was lots of fun. Shuttling up the first climb sure would have been nice.

    Here's my "big hits" from the race:

    1) Poorly signed. Partiuclarly for a course that doubled back on itself. There seemed to be an assumption that if you were there, you were familiar with the course. Trail names were used on the sinage instead of segment numbers. At the riders meeting the same attituede seemed to pervail, even after a request to use sement numbers instead of trail names. The final turn into the parking lot at the end of the course wasn't signed at all as far as I could tell. There wasn't clear sinage from the start area out to the road to the first climb.

    The map provided looked like a kindergardener with crayons, a pair of sicciors, and a cell phone camera. Take a look at the Tiger Mtn., Yalcot, Dry Hill map. Easy to follow, easy to read.

    Providing a GPX file would be cool. Google Maps has the entire course from this weekend as well. Open Street Maps has better trail maps, but requires a little bit of work.

    2) Racing on the interurban trail. If you were close to the time cut-off, and assumed that that ment full-course completion (see note below), you were hauling-ass along a trail used by the general public that wasn't signed as part of a race course that day. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. Once incodent with a racer and a home-owner wakling along the trail, and we'll have a real problem.

    3) Inadiquate parking. People were parking all over the grass, and who knows where else. If the venue won't support 250 people, that the event should be smaller. At least post a notice that parking will be tight, and encourage people to carpool/get dropped off.

    4) (Some) Rude staff. I didn't catch his name, but when there was a parking problem after the race, I had a vehical that was close to the description of someone who was parked illegally. I was trying to do the right thing, get more information to determin if it was my truck or not (it was NOT), and I was greated with what amounted to a "**** you, I don't care, go move your car if you even think it might be you, I'm not going to help". The promoter created a parking problem and gets bent out of shape when there's a parking problem?! I was having a great time, but this really runined my day. After the physical stress of riding all day, this was just a really really crap taste to leave in my mouth.

    General comment on the series:

    The rule book is inadiquate. Example : races included a cut-off time, but that is not mentioned in the rule book. Is the cut off time to get back to the start area? Start the last timed section? Is it a DQ? Position penalty? The current rule book is about 6 pages. For a series like this, I'd expect about double that.

    Edit: Just to be clear, I don't think anything above has to do with the cost of the race. In the grand scheme of the weekend, and the general cost of the sport, $75 isn't expensive. Fixing signing, or maps, or rule book, etc. doesn't cost money. This is the first year of this race, so there's going to be room for improvement.
    Last edited by hawker665; 10-21-2013 at 02:12 PM.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    71
    Iíd like to give the race organizers props for putting on a really fun and overall well organized race series. I have done all the CDC races this year and have really enjoyed getting out and riding in new venues and meeting new folks to ride with. When I have seen the race organizers they have always been very friendly and have gone out of their way to ask how the races have been and how I liked the courses. These are not large scale, high dollar events. Itís a local race series and for its size I think the events have been run very well. As others have said, the money beyond the cost of putting on the event goes to trail building and itís not like these guys are trying to cut corners to make a profit.

    As for shuttles, as far as I remember there was nothing in the registration for the series that said the races would be shuttled. For the amount of time the race organizers put into these events arguing about whether a shuttled race should cost $75 and a non-shuttled race cost $50 seems pointless. Iíd rather see my $25 go towards putting on more races and building trails. I paid $250 to do a 100 mile mtb race with 20k of climbing this summer...I feel a little cheated there weren't shuttles on that one...

    There did seem to be some confusion about whether the cutoff time was your time at the end of stage 4 or back at the start/finish area. I agree it should have been stated that the end was at the end of stage 4 so people would not ride fast along the interurban. Lessons for next year.

  26. #26
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,540
    This is GREAT feedback and thank you for the time you put into giving this!!

    Some quick replies:

    1. Twice during the past week, we had signs ripped down along the course. I pre-rode the entire course on Friday with some builders and we put at last 20 new signs up. Then, on Saturday at 5:40 PM, I got a text from a buddy that someone (a disgruntled hiker?) had ripped more signs down off the course and pulled logs across the trails in the lower ridge / Lowe Salal area (probably the most confusing section). I had someone pre-ride as much of the course at 7 AM on Sunday as possible and put up signs and clean stuff up, but it probably didn't all get taken care of...

    2. Noted on the map!! That is my bad - since I did that. We did, however, provide a detailed routing description that was turn-by-turn and we had arrows up at every single intersection (at least we did prior to Saturday). The Chuckanuts are a particularly confusing place to ride because of an overall lack of signage and we're working with the park to improve that this year....for an overall better trail user experience.

    3. All of the transition stages were open to the public and are not considered a "race stage". This was stated on the website and we said that in the racer's meeting. Now, that said, because the length of the course, I realize folks may have been pinned to get to their next stage.

    To limit trail traffic and keep other users notified, I signed every single trailhead along the mountain (even trailheads that don't really connect very well) with notices about the race, notified every trail user group a month in advance and as many neighbors as possible. I agree on using the interurban as a transition stage is less-than-ideal, but we are limited on trails we can race on currently at Chuckanut and had to go over to Madrone/Lower Salal for our 4th stage. I am looking to change that, however, and have proposed 17 miles of NEW trail in the park for the coming years. Ideally, that will shorten all of the transition stages and the amount of road riding. One thing I did note this in bold about that transition stage was: "PLEASE NOTE: This particular section is very popular with families hiking, dog walkers and equestrians. Please watch your speed and be extra courteous to other trail users.". In my old stomping grounds of Tokul East, this would be akin to having a transition stage along the SVT.

    4. Parking. Noted! We opened up more of the campground for parking, but we could've sent folks down to Clayton Beach/Lost Lake lot a 1/4 mile down the road. I got similar feedback from the Park Ranger and we'll have more emphasis on parking control next time.

    5. Rude Staff/ Volunteers. Well, that's not great and I'm not sure what to say about that. Many of the volunteers are personal friends of mine, so I'd love to get a description of the person (PM me!!). I was on the mountain until just before awards, so I didn't hear about this until now.

    6. Rulebook. Specifically around cut-off's etc. is something I've heard a couple of times.

    Thanks for coming to B'ham to race. Most of the folks I chatted with looked exhausted, but were smiling and stoked.

    Cheers,
    EB


    Quote Originally Posted by hawker665 View Post
    Ran this race on Sunday, and felt that it wasn't as well run as it could be. First, I had a great time on some fantastic trails, and hung out with great folks all day. We went to the "Shoot The Trails" event the night before, and that too was lots of fun. Shuttling up the first climb sure would have been nice.

    Here's my "big hits" from the race:

    1) Poorly signed. Partiuclarly for a course that doubled back on itself. There seemed to be an assumption that if you were there, you were familiar with the course. Trail names were used on the sinage instead of segment numbers. At the riders meeting the same attituede seemed to pervail, even after a request to use sement numbers instead of trail names. The final turn into the parking lot at the end of the course wasn't signed at all as far as I could tell. There wasn't clear sinage from the start area out to the road to the first climb.

    The map provided looked like a kindergardener with crayons, a pair of sicciors, and a cell phone camera. Take a look at the Tiger Mtn., Yalcot, Dry Hill map. Easy to follow, easy to read.

    Providing a GPX file would be cool. Google Maps has the entire course from this weekend as well. Open Street Maps has better trail maps, but requires a little bit of work.

    2) Racing on the interurban trail. If you were close to the time cut-off, and assumed that that ment full-course completion (see note below), you were hauling-ass along a trail used by the general public that wasn't signed as part of a race course that day. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. Once incodent with a racer and a home-owner wakling along the trail, and we'll have a real problem.

    3) Inadiquate parking. People were parking all over the grass, and who knows where else. If the venue won't support 250 people, that the event should be smaller. At least post a notice that parking will be tight, and encourage people to carpool/get dropped off.

    4) (Some) Rude staff. I didn't catch his name, but when there was a parking problem after the race, I had a vehical that was close to the description of someone who was parked illegally. I was trying to do the right thing, get more information to determin if it was my truck or not (it was NOT), and I was greated with what amounted to a "**** you, I don't care, go move your car if you even think it might be you, I'm not going to help". The promoter created a parking problem and gets bent out of shape when there's a parking problem?! I was having a great time, but this really runined my day. After the physical stress of riding all day, this was just a really really crap taste to leave in my mouth.

    General comment on the series:

    The rule book is inadiquate. Example : races included a cut-off time, but that is not mentioned in the rule book. Is the cut off time to get back to the start area? Start the last timed section? Is it a DQ? Position penalty? The current rule book is about 6 pages. For a series like this, I'd expect about double that.

  27. #27
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,540
    Yeah, noted on the cutoff times and the rulebook.

    I talked to a couple of buddies today who raced and they're all whooped. I rode the route a couple times in the past few weeks (not at race pace, of course!) and was thinking...."man, I'm glad I'm not racing this!". Kidding, sort of!

    EB

    Quote Originally Posted by ccwaskier View Post
    Iíd like to give the race organizers props for putting on a really fun and overall well organized race series. I have done all the CDC races this year and have really enjoyed getting out and riding in new venues and meeting new folks to ride with. When I have seen the race organizers they have always been very friendly and have gone out of their way to ask how the races have been and how I liked the courses. These are not large scale, high dollar events. Itís a local race series and for its size I think the events have been run very well. As others have said, the money beyond the cost of putting on the event goes to trail building and itís not like these guys are trying to cut corners to make a profit.

    As for shuttles, as far as I remember there was nothing in the registration for the series that said the races would be shuttled. For the amount of time the race organizers put into these events arguing about whether a shuttled race should cost $75 and a non-shuttled race cost $50 seems pointless. Iíd rather see my $25 go towards putting on more races and building trails. I paid $250 to do a 100 mile mtb race with 20k of climbing this summer...I feel a little cheated there weren't shuttles on that one...

    There did seem to be some confusion about whether the cutoff time was your time at the end of stage 4 or back at the start/finish area. I agree it should have been stated that the end was at the end of stage 4 so people would not ride fast along the interurban. Lessons for next year.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-09-2013, 01:25 PM
  2. Homage to ice: From the promoter
    By substanceprojects in forum Eastern Canada
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-15-2012, 01:56 PM
  3. Red Hills Rumble 3, Canned Food Drive (12/18/11)
    By george_da_trog in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-17-2011, 08:27 PM
  4. Industry first? A canned Belgian-style Tripel
    By JFryauff in forum Beer Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-03-2011, 03:35 PM
  5. Canned response to "those are fat tires!"
    By Freakshoei in forum Fat bikes
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 07-20-2011, 10:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •