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Thread: Paradise Valley

  1. #1
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Paradise Valley

    Good workparty today - we are probably 2/3 done with the Lloyd Trail. When finished, this trail should ride dry all winter with just a little yearly maintenance.

    The trails at Paradise are in amazing shape for late December. Dry for the most part and tacky. With the exception of Red Alder of course. Come and get some!

    I have heard a few comments that the work we are doing is "dumbing down" the Lloyd Trail. To some extent, it's true. In rebuilding the trail to drain properly, we have to fill in around root fields, and re-shape (or re-route) the trailbed in many places. Plus, some object to the use of gravel that we mix in with the native soil and pack onto the trailbed. The gravel consolidates and provides armouring of the tread. Over time, our new work will pack in and the roots will re-appear and the Lloyd Trail will be back to it's old technical, twisty self. We are also taking the time to significantly narrow the trail in places where it has widened out - mainly because of riders trying to avoid the roots.

    Thanks to everyone who has come out to help over the past couple of months - Jim, Doug, John, J, Brian, Austin, Karen, Sean and Ben.

    Couple of pics from today:

    Sean, Brian and J, analyzing the right line (they narrowed the trail in this spot):


    Jimba, turning South Traverse into a playground:
    Last edited by woodway; 12-23-2011 at 06:54 PM.

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    Good on ya all!

    There IS a time and place for "dumbing down" and Lloyd (AKA: The Hidden Trail) is just one of those. That trail takes a beating being the only legal route on that side of the valley, it will indeed get roughed up agin eventually but will be more sustainable due to the work you all are doing out there. Thanks! It's a nice Christmas gift to all the riders who use it.

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    Man I look like I'm about to go postal on someone with that shovel.

    I used to avoid P.V. in the winter, those days may be over.

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    Nice guys. I hope to make it out there over the holidays and check it out. Thanks for the work!

    I'll take "dumbed down" over standing water, any day.

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    I'm happy to hear some of those roots are getting covered, so no complaints here
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    Woodway, I don't think you're dumbing down anything. We have dumbing-down-vigilantes at work in Big Finn Hill/St Eds, so the difference is really, really obvious to me. Keep on truckin', Merry Christmas.

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    Actually it's amazing how well gravel works its way into the trail over time. Keep up the good work, that trail will be the better for it in the end!

    And there's dumbing down going on at Tolt as well-I wish those dumbing down vigilantes would leave stuff alone. I say get off the steed and walk if something is too hard. Or better yet session the obstacle a little bit and see if the skills improve.

  8. #8
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    I rode the entire park yesterday, and the trails are still in pretty good shape - a little mud and water here and there, but not bad at all. With the exception of Red Alder, of course, which is a sloppy mess.

    I ran into plenty of riders yesterday - the place was hopping!

    I've posted another workparty for this sunday. Ring in the New Year with a little trail work!

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    It should only take one or two more work parties to finish up Lloyd's, and then we will move over and tackle Red Alder.

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    Filling in roots is is better than cutting them out. Filled in they will wear back out and keep the challenge up on the trail.

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    People who comment on dumbing down don't really do trailwork. And some people who do trailwork and don't really know what they're doing might not understand either.

    Lloyds likely wasn't as tech around the roots until the trail got super popular, and compaction combined with water erosion exposed the roots to the extent they are now. They didn't start out like that. i would assume you're bringing it back to more of it's original state.

    As people who work on trails it's always important to have a sense for rider experience. There are times when trail work can sanitize a trail certainly. But most of the time you have to construct something that will be technical, you have to put in extra work to enable it to be sustainable. To stand up to heavy use...

    So unfortunately the critisism you may get is from people who are bummed out. They spent weeks/months/years trying to manage a section, and even as the section has eroded and gotten even more difficult, they don't look at it from any other perspective than what they want.

    So when volunteers (me) tells other volunteers (Woodway). "Ignore them, it's common to hear from people who don't have a clue, or don't want to help themselves". As a reader you might have more insight to this common back and forth topic, that has and will repeat for years.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    People who comment on dumbing down don't really do trailwork. And some people who do trailwork and don't really know what they're doing might not understand either.

    Lloyds likely wasn't as tech around the roots until the trail got super popular, and compaction combined with water erosion exposed the roots to the extent they are now. They didn't start out like that. i would assume you're bringing it back to more of it's original state.

    As people who work on trails it's always important to have a sense for rider experience. There are times when trail work can sanitize a trail certainly. But most of the time you have to construct something that will be technical, you have to put in extra work to enable it to be sustainable. To stand up to heavy use...

    So unfortunately the critisism you may get is from people who are bummed out. They spent weeks/months/years trying to manage a section, and even as the section has eroded and gotten even more difficult, they don't look at it from any other perspective than what they want.

    So when volunteers (me) tells other volunteers (Woodway). "Ignore them, it's common to hear from people who don't have a clue, or don't want to help themselves". As a reader you might have more insight to this common back and forth topic, that has and will repeat for years.
    Exactly...

    A couple of other points:
    -Standing water is not a technical feature. It is trail neglect
    -People generally only remember their most recent experiences on a trail
    -Every trail user should be required to put in at least 4 hrs of trail work a month
    -Once a trail is built it's not really finished. The maintenance part then kicks in
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  12. #12
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    I rode PV yesterday including Lloyds. I still can't ride it clean, still 3 spots I can't make it through without putting my feet down, so has not been too dumbed down from point of view. Great work, thank you all. I would like to volunteer to help, but Thursdays are really my only open day, perhaps in the spring I will have some Saturdays free to help out. I live near there and love having these great trails so close by!

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    If you live nearby I'm sure Woodway would meet you out there on a Thursday or some afternoon to direct on something that needs being done that you could do on those days off. I tell people all the time that if they don't fell comfortable actuallt altering the trail bed, there are plenty of logistical things I could use help with. Moving materials, etc...

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    We have yards and yards of gravel to move. If you have a wheelbarrow and want to help out, PM me, and I can get you started.

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    How many trip with a Bob trailer will it take to move 5 yards of gravel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    How many trip with a Bob trailer will it take to move 5 yards of gravel?

    5 cubic yard = 867.849 065 6 gallon [US, dry]

    Your in for a workout with only ~8 gallons per trip

  17. #17
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    I'm gonna need to get an early start.

  18. #18
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    I've got another workparty scheduled for this sunday (1/15) and will be grateful for any help I can get! We may have a reporter/photographer from the Everett Herald out to do a story on Evergreen/PVCA and it would be good to get a decent turnout.

    Evergreen MTB Calendar

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    PVCA Update

    We made it to the bridge today, finishing the last section of the Lloyd trail. Will need some additional gravel amending to armor it up, but the worst sections have been rebuilt.

    It rained over 1" yesterday and overnight here in Woodinville. As we were pushing our wheelbarrows down the Lloyd trail the work we have done over the past couple months is obvious - a little mud here and there, but Lloyd was mostly dry. Unheard of after this much rain and very satisfying.

    Heres an example of what we worked on today:



    Thanks John, Alan and Doug for helping out today.

    Red Alder is next.

  20. #20
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    Awesome. No pics from last week?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Awesome. No pics from last week?
    You'll have to wait for the article in the newspaper.

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    So when are you working next? I'll have some free time coming up.

  23. #23
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    Maybe this weekend. Watch the evergreen calendar. Will post a workparty if things work out.

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    Nice! Do I need to pester Dave about Crossover and getting a load of gravel to 107th in your truck? (Saw him at Alpy on Sunday with the rest of greater Seattle.)

    When do you think the article will come out?

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    Rode Lloyds clean today!

    Perhaps not all that impressive, but after starting to ride at PV last summer today was the first time I rode Lloyds clean (is that the right term? did not put a foot down or have to stop) and wanted to share my accomplishment, and say thanks to all those who have put so much work into the trails at PV! Lloyds Detour is still another matter, lost track of how many times I had to get off the bike on LD so still something to work towards.

  26. #26
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Hey congrats Smilely!

    Of course, we have been accused of "dumbing down" Lloyds with the recent work we did. But there are still plenty of roots and tech, so you can be proud (although I have to ask: did you ride the teeter?).

    Now, when you can clean the south end of two trees on a wet day, you'll REALLY know you are making progress!

    I have a report that there are some trees down in the Lloyd Detour. Can you confirm?

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    Woodway, yes there are two trees that have fallen across Lloyds detour.

    There have been three main trouble spots for me on Llyods and I may have bypassed one of them today by taking the detour but perhaps some of the recent work has also made it a but easier overall too. I have ridden the teeter many times but was going the wrong way today for that. I started this summer on my 20 year old full rigid MTN bike from college and then got a full suspension in September. I have been skiing a lot this winter so have not gotten too many rides in this winter. I'll have to take a look at Two Trees, I do enjoy a challenge. I have not tried many parts of Cedar (can't recall second part of its name) mostly due to lack of confidence, but also because I am riding alone and concerned about getting hurt with no one around. Hope to bump into you or some others someday.

  28. #28
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    Thanks Smilely. When you ride the detour, make sure you ride from Waypoint 18 to Waypoint 17. The trail is actually setup to ride in that direction. It's going to get marked one-way at some point (when I get time to get the signs made up). I'll take care of those downed trees over the weekend.

    Keep at it. If you can master the roots at Paradise Valley, many of the other lowland riding spots will seem easy by comparison!

  29. #29
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    Did I hear Bob trailer and chainsaw?

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    Woodway

    What method are you guys using for mixing dirt and with gravel? Are you pre-mixing in a wheelbarrow? or pouring over the fill and the tamping?

    Thanks
    Maday
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    No premixing going on. just sprinkling the gravel over the gold dirt and tamp down. sometimes a couple or few layers (in bad spots)

  32. #32
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    I'll modify what Jimba said a little.

    Where we filled really deep sections of trails, more than about 6-8" of fill, we dump several buckets of dirt that we mined from a borrow pit onto the trail and then mix gravel in. We pack that down in layers and then put more gravel on top and pack the whole thing down.

    For more shallow fills, we put the gravel down on top and scratch it in with the tongs of the McLeod and then pack the whole thing down. Often we will come back and lay more gravel on top to really make sure the filled area is armored.

    Jimba, yes chainsaw and bob. Hope you can make it!

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    It's my birthday Sunday and I cant imagine doing anything better than whacking a couple trees with a chainsaw!

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    The two downed trees on Lloyds detour are gone.

  35. #35
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    We wrapped the Lloyd Trail today. It's rained so much up here in the past week and the water table is so high that our borrow pits were filling up with water before we could mine mineral soil out of them

    Thanks Jim (happy birthday), Doug, John and Alan for your help!

    Lloyd Trail is as good as 218 man-hours of work and ten yards of gravel can make it. It's riding pretty dry and I hope y'all like it.

    Now, Red Alder.

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    Got out there nice and early today, and was suprised to see how much snow was still in the valley considering how warm it was in Seattle yesterday. Very glad it was early and so cold though, at least some of the mud was frozen still.

    Quite a lot of really deep and wide puddles on pretty much all the trails, and enough snow on Cedar Run woodwork to make it unrideable (something my rear brake rotor knows all too well now, sigh...) The trail from Mainline to the mtb park coming from Cedar had some puddles 30 feet long by 10 feet wide, and almost 12 inches deep.

    I will say that Lloyds was perfect though, not a single puddle and MUCH more fun to ride as well. Definitely the driest trail out there, which is probably the first time I could ever say that in early March Great work guys!

    There were quite a lot of small trees and large branches over the other trails, I think I must have moved about 15-20 from Southern Traverse and Mainline alone. Added some more logs to the log rollover someone started on the large tree down at the top of Cedar.
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  37. #37
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    Large Tree down at the top of Cedar?

    Can you tell me a little more about this- is if before or after the "morning wood" log ride?

    I haven't been out there in quite a while, but will try to put a work party into cedar run at some point this spring.

    That RH downhill wood berm (with the tree on the inside) can be treacherous when wet!

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    It's before if I remember right. Nothing major, just a small 8" diameter tree fell over the trail and was about 12" above it. Someone had started to pile a couple logs on either side so you could ride over it. Very tame, almost looks like it was part of the trail design.

    The RH berm was exactly where I lost it, slide off the right side and ended up wedging my bike between the tree and the woodwork. Bent the crap out of my rotor in the process, but I was able to straighten it at home just fine.
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    I have riden most of the trails several times over the past week and have to agree with everything Terekith said. I also found the down tree on Cedar run, no one had placed any logs there yet, I tried going over it, yeah that did not work out so well :-) oh well no real harm done to me or my bike. Mainline does have a huge big wide "pond" in on area, a stream going across it in another spot, and a stream running about 15 feet right down the trail in another spot. Lloyds, no puddles or mud, really great work done there!

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    I was out there today too... lots of fun.

    Lot's of puddles and the snow was great!!!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    Got out there nice and early today, and was suprised to see how much snow was still in the valley considering how warm it was in Seattle yesterday.
    Haha, there may still be snow there in June. The cold air just seems to collect in PVCA, and combined with the dense tree cover, it takes a long time for the snow to melt!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    Quite a lot of really deep and wide puddles on pretty much all the trails, and enough snow on Cedar Run woodwork to make it unrideable (something my rear brake rotor knows all too well now, sigh...) The trail from Mainline to the mtb park coming from Cedar had some puddles 30 feet long by 10 feet wide, and almost 12 inches deep.
    There has been over an inch of rain/snow up here in Woodinville this past week, and it takes a couple days for the trails to drain. A few of those big puddles on mainline between Cedar Run and the plateau (aka MTB Park) are eventually going to get filled in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    I will say that Lloyds was perfect though, not a single puddle and MUCH more fun to ride as well. Definitely the driest trail out there, which is probably the first time I could ever say that in early March Great work guys!
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilely View Post
    Mainline does have a huge big wide "pond" in on area, a stream going across it in another spot, and a stream running about 15 feet right down the trail in another spot. Lloyds, no puddles or mud, really great work done there!
    That stream across the trail is staying, but it's easy to ride through. The huge wide pond - that's a seasonal problem. We have decided to build a ladder off to the side of the trail for bikes and peds. Not until the fall, though. Also a scout is going to be building a ladder at the bottom of south traverse, near the bottom of cedar run. It's his eagle project and he expects to get started as soon as he gets the rest of his material donations lined up.

    If you like the way the Lloyd Trail is riding, consider coming out and helping us do the same to Red Alder. WP posted for this weekend.

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    Nice start on Red Alder

    I rode PV this afternoon including Red Alder. Someone move a lot of gravel and did a lot of clean up and work this weekend. Just wanted to say thanks.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilely View Post
    I rode PV this afternoon including Red Alder. Someone move a lot of gravel and did a lot of clean up and work this weekend. Just wanted to say thanks.
    Evergreen loaned us their Power Toter and we were able to move about three yards of gravel up the trail. That toter could haul four wheelbarrows of gravel at a time, but it was like holding onto a bucking bronco. Manuvering it on singletrack was challenging. Only lost control twice resulting in the load dumping where we did not want it. That was a little hairy.

    Weve started rebuilding the trail from the north end, working south. Eric was raking debris off the trailtread which was much appreciated. John, Alan, Brian and Gary were working on drainage and the trail tread. Borneo and Dave put some time in at the south end of the park on the crossover trail. Lot's of good trail karma at PVCA this weekend.

    I'll be posting another workparty for next weekend.

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    Thanks for all your hard work, I just recently got out there for my first ride since summertime. Maybe that sounds weird but this past year has been some fine fishing for me, which is my true passion. Now that the rivers are closed again and I have had to put down the flyrod, now its time to ride bikes again. Lloyd's trail was very nice....places that I had problems previously were much more rideable, "dumbed down" I think not, if the trails don't get repaired then we won't have anything to ride on in the long run. Thanks for your hard work!!

  45. #45
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    Made more progress on Red Alder today (thanks John and Alan, the trailwork 'machines, Joseph, Brian, Natalie and Eric). There is a lot more to do - maybe 20% of the trail is done. It was so wet out there today that the sumps on the lower section of the trail were full of water because the water table is so high. We drained a couple of them with buckets only to watch them fill back up.

    We ran into three riders on the trail today. I tried to nicely suggest that they refrain from riding the trails for a few days to let them drain a bit. When things are this wet a lot of damage can be done.

    Here is a before and after:




    The bottom of South Traverse is flooded. If you come down Cedar Run, you are going to have to go up South Traverse to Lloyd. The Boy Scout should be starting on the boardwalk over this spot soon (it's his Eagle project).


  46. #46
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    i love before and afters. Wish i coulda done more without getting in trouble at the "other" place.
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    ~....|....\
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    .\....FAILBOAT..../

  47. #47
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    Wow. That's the most water I've ever seen down there. Looks like we'll need a ferry landing instead of a boardwalk there.
    Hoping to get down to just above that on Crossover and the east end of ST tomorrow clearing drains and armoring.

  48. #48
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    If you want to amend the soil, there is maybe a wheelbarrow full of gravel just inside the fence at 107th. There's about five yards over at the yellow house. Thanks for putting in some time out there Bob!

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    3.5 hours out there until I couldn't lift the grub hoe anymore. Made it from near the Cathedral on the south end of Lloyd to the alders on the old Crossover Trail. (Now the East end of Southern Traverse.) What a muddy mess. Still some to do but much better and the puddles are drained. Nice to see that trail getting a lot of bike tracks. Many don't even know it's there. Stump Pump skinny combo!
    The highlight (or, lowlight) of the afternoon was overhearing two guys about 3:30 going northbound on Lloyd nearby lamenting about dumbed down trails, trail nazis, and, "they're doing this to all the trails out here"...

    People who know me know what I was thinking...

  50. #50
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    I can see why fixing chronic wet spots makes the land mgr happy, but I think Lloyd challenges have been sanitized and that makes me sad. I hope the very top segment of Two Trees will be kept wild. PVCA has plenty of big wet spots that need work, esp. on Mainline.

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