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Thread: Paradise Valley

  1. #1
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Paradise Valley

    Good workparty today - we are probably 2/3 done with the Lloyd Trail. When finished, this trail should ride dry all winter with just a little yearly maintenance.

    The trails at Paradise are in amazing shape for late December. Dry for the most part and tacky. With the exception of Red Alder of course. Come and get some!

    I have heard a few comments that the work we are doing is "dumbing down" the Lloyd Trail. To some extent, it's true. In rebuilding the trail to drain properly, we have to fill in around root fields, and re-shape (or re-route) the trailbed in many places. Plus, some object to the use of gravel that we mix in with the native soil and pack onto the trailbed. The gravel consolidates and provides armouring of the tread. Over time, our new work will pack in and the roots will re-appear and the Lloyd Trail will be back to it's old technical, twisty self. We are also taking the time to significantly narrow the trail in places where it has widened out - mainly because of riders trying to avoid the roots.

    Thanks to everyone who has come out to help over the past couple of months - Jim, Doug, John, J, Brian, Austin, Karen, Sean and Ben.

    Couple of pics from today:

    Sean, Brian and J, analyzing the right line (they narrowed the trail in this spot):


    Jimba, turning South Traverse into a playground:
    Last edited by woodway; 12-23-2011 at 05:54 PM.

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    Good on ya all!

    There IS a time and place for "dumbing down" and Lloyd (AKA: The Hidden Trail) is just one of those. That trail takes a beating being the only legal route on that side of the valley, it will indeed get roughed up agin eventually but will be more sustainable due to the work you all are doing out there. Thanks! It's a nice Christmas gift to all the riders who use it.

  3. #3
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    Man I look like I'm about to go postal on someone with that shovel.

    I used to avoid P.V. in the winter, those days may be over.

  4. #4
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    Nice guys. I hope to make it out there over the holidays and check it out. Thanks for the work!

    I'll take "dumbed down" over standing water, any day.

  5. #5
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    I'm happy to hear some of those roots are getting covered, so no complaints here
    Tarekith.com

    '12 RM Slayer70, i9 Torch, Flow EX, XT Brakes, 5050 s3.

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    Woodway, I don't think you're dumbing down anything. We have dumbing-down-vigilantes at work in Big Finn Hill/St Eds, so the difference is really, really obvious to me. Keep on truckin', Merry Christmas.

  7. #7
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    Actually it's amazing how well gravel works its way into the trail over time. Keep up the good work, that trail will be the better for it in the end!

    And there's dumbing down going on at Tolt as well-I wish those dumbing down vigilantes would leave stuff alone. I say get off the steed and walk if something is too hard. Or better yet session the obstacle a little bit and see if the skills improve.

  8. #8
    Squeaky Wheel
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    I rode the entire park yesterday, and the trails are still in pretty good shape - a little mud and water here and there, but not bad at all. With the exception of Red Alder, of course, which is a sloppy mess.

    I ran into plenty of riders yesterday - the place was hopping!

    I've posted another workparty for this sunday. Ring in the New Year with a little trail work!

    Evergreen MTB Calendar

    It should only take one or two more work parties to finish up Lloyd's, and then we will move over and tackle Red Alder.

  9. #9
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    Filling in roots is is better than cutting them out. Filled in they will wear back out and keep the challenge up on the trail.

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    People who comment on dumbing down don't really do trailwork. And some people who do trailwork and don't really know what they're doing might not understand either.

    Lloyds likely wasn't as tech around the roots until the trail got super popular, and compaction combined with water erosion exposed the roots to the extent they are now. They didn't start out like that. i would assume you're bringing it back to more of it's original state.

    As people who work on trails it's always important to have a sense for rider experience. There are times when trail work can sanitize a trail certainly. But most of the time you have to construct something that will be technical, you have to put in extra work to enable it to be sustainable. To stand up to heavy use...

    So unfortunately the critisism you may get is from people who are bummed out. They spent weeks/months/years trying to manage a section, and even as the section has eroded and gotten even more difficult, they don't look at it from any other perspective than what they want.

    So when volunteers (me) tells other volunteers (Woodway). "Ignore them, it's common to hear from people who don't have a clue, or don't want to help themselves". As a reader you might have more insight to this common back and forth topic, that has and will repeat for years.
    .~...|\
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    People who comment on dumbing down don't really do trailwork. And some people who do trailwork and don't really know what they're doing might not understand either.

    Lloyds likely wasn't as tech around the roots until the trail got super popular, and compaction combined with water erosion exposed the roots to the extent they are now. They didn't start out like that. i would assume you're bringing it back to more of it's original state.

    As people who work on trails it's always important to have a sense for rider experience. There are times when trail work can sanitize a trail certainly. But most of the time you have to construct something that will be technical, you have to put in extra work to enable it to be sustainable. To stand up to heavy use...

    So unfortunately the critisism you may get is from people who are bummed out. They spent weeks/months/years trying to manage a section, and even as the section has eroded and gotten even more difficult, they don't look at it from any other perspective than what they want.

    So when volunteers (me) tells other volunteers (Woodway). "Ignore them, it's common to hear from people who don't have a clue, or don't want to help themselves". As a reader you might have more insight to this common back and forth topic, that has and will repeat for years.
    Exactly...

    A couple of other points:
    -Standing water is not a technical feature. It is trail neglect
    -People generally only remember their most recent experiences on a trail
    -Every trail user should be required to put in at least 4 hrs of trail work a month
    -Once a trail is built it's not really finished. The maintenance part then kicks in
    .
    .
    .
    - Be Someone

  12. #12
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    I rode PV yesterday including Lloyds. I still can't ride it clean, still 3 spots I can't make it through without putting my feet down, so has not been too dumbed down from point of view. Great work, thank you all. I would like to volunteer to help, but Thursdays are really my only open day, perhaps in the spring I will have some Saturdays free to help out. I live near there and love having these great trails so close by!

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    If you live nearby I'm sure Woodway would meet you out there on a Thursday or some afternoon to direct on something that needs being done that you could do on those days off. I tell people all the time that if they don't fell comfortable actuallt altering the trail bed, there are plenty of logistical things I could use help with. Moving materials, etc...

  14. #14
    Squeaky Wheel
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    We have yards and yards of gravel to move. If you have a wheelbarrow and want to help out, PM me, and I can get you started.

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    How many trip with a Bob trailer will it take to move 5 yards of gravel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    How many trip with a Bob trailer will it take to move 5 yards of gravel?

    5 cubic yard = 867.849 065 6 gallon [US, dry]

    Your in for a workout with only ~8 gallons per trip

  17. #17
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    I'm gonna need to get an early start.

  18. #18
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    I've got another workparty scheduled for this sunday (1/15) and will be grateful for any help I can get! We may have a reporter/photographer from the Everett Herald out to do a story on Evergreen/PVCA and it would be good to get a decent turnout.

    Evergreen MTB Calendar

  19. #19
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    PVCA Update

    We made it to the bridge today, finishing the last section of the Lloyd trail. Will need some additional gravel amending to armor it up, but the worst sections have been rebuilt.

    It rained over 1" yesterday and overnight here in Woodinville. As we were pushing our wheelbarrows down the Lloyd trail the work we have done over the past couple months is obvious - a little mud here and there, but Lloyd was mostly dry. Unheard of after this much rain and very satisfying.

    Heres an example of what we worked on today:



    Thanks John, Alan and Doug for helping out today.

    Red Alder is next.

  20. #20
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    Awesome. No pics from last week?

  21. #21
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Awesome. No pics from last week?
    You'll have to wait for the article in the newspaper.

  22. #22
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    So when are you working next? I'll have some free time coming up.

  23. #23
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Maybe this weekend. Watch the evergreen calendar. Will post a workparty if things work out.

  24. #24
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    Nice! Do I need to pester Dave about Crossover and getting a load of gravel to 107th in your truck? (Saw him at Alpy on Sunday with the rest of greater Seattle.)

    When do you think the article will come out?

  25. #25
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    Rode Lloyds clean today!

    Perhaps not all that impressive, but after starting to ride at PV last summer today was the first time I rode Lloyds clean (is that the right term? did not put a foot down or have to stop) and wanted to share my accomplishment, and say thanks to all those who have put so much work into the trails at PV! Lloyds Detour is still another matter, lost track of how many times I had to get off the bike on LD so still something to work towards.

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