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Thread: Paradise Valley

  1. #1
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Paradise Valley

    Good workparty today - we are probably 2/3 done with the Lloyd Trail. When finished, this trail should ride dry all winter with just a little yearly maintenance.

    The trails at Paradise are in amazing shape for late December. Dry for the most part and tacky. With the exception of Red Alder of course. Come and get some!

    I have heard a few comments that the work we are doing is "dumbing down" the Lloyd Trail. To some extent, it's true. In rebuilding the trail to drain properly, we have to fill in around root fields, and re-shape (or re-route) the trailbed in many places. Plus, some object to the use of gravel that we mix in with the native soil and pack onto the trailbed. The gravel consolidates and provides armouring of the tread. Over time, our new work will pack in and the roots will re-appear and the Lloyd Trail will be back to it's old technical, twisty self. We are also taking the time to significantly narrow the trail in places where it has widened out - mainly because of riders trying to avoid the roots.

    Thanks to everyone who has come out to help over the past couple of months - Jim, Doug, John, J, Brian, Austin, Karen, Sean and Ben.

    Couple of pics from today:

    Sean, Brian and J, analyzing the right line (they narrowed the trail in this spot):


    Jimba, turning South Traverse into a playground:
    Last edited by woodway; 12-23-2011 at 06:54 PM.

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    Good on ya all!

    There IS a time and place for "dumbing down" and Lloyd (AKA: The Hidden Trail) is just one of those. That trail takes a beating being the only legal route on that side of the valley, it will indeed get roughed up agin eventually but will be more sustainable due to the work you all are doing out there. Thanks! It's a nice Christmas gift to all the riders who use it.

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    Man I look like I'm about to go postal on someone with that shovel.

    I used to avoid P.V. in the winter, those days may be over.

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    Nice guys. I hope to make it out there over the holidays and check it out. Thanks for the work!

    I'll take "dumbed down" over standing water, any day.

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    I'm happy to hear some of those roots are getting covered, so no complaints here
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    Woodway, I don't think you're dumbing down anything. We have dumbing-down-vigilantes at work in Big Finn Hill/St Eds, so the difference is really, really obvious to me. Keep on truckin', Merry Christmas.

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    Actually it's amazing how well gravel works its way into the trail over time. Keep up the good work, that trail will be the better for it in the end!

    And there's dumbing down going on at Tolt as well-I wish those dumbing down vigilantes would leave stuff alone. I say get off the steed and walk if something is too hard. Or better yet session the obstacle a little bit and see if the skills improve.

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    I rode the entire park yesterday, and the trails are still in pretty good shape - a little mud and water here and there, but not bad at all. With the exception of Red Alder, of course, which is a sloppy mess.

    I ran into plenty of riders yesterday - the place was hopping!

    I've posted another workparty for this sunday. Ring in the New Year with a little trail work!

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    It should only take one or two more work parties to finish up Lloyd's, and then we will move over and tackle Red Alder.

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    Filling in roots is is better than cutting them out. Filled in they will wear back out and keep the challenge up on the trail.

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    People who comment on dumbing down don't really do trailwork. And some people who do trailwork and don't really know what they're doing might not understand either.

    Lloyds likely wasn't as tech around the roots until the trail got super popular, and compaction combined with water erosion exposed the roots to the extent they are now. They didn't start out like that. i would assume you're bringing it back to more of it's original state.

    As people who work on trails it's always important to have a sense for rider experience. There are times when trail work can sanitize a trail certainly. But most of the time you have to construct something that will be technical, you have to put in extra work to enable it to be sustainable. To stand up to heavy use...

    So unfortunately the critisism you may get is from people who are bummed out. They spent weeks/months/years trying to manage a section, and even as the section has eroded and gotten even more difficult, they don't look at it from any other perspective than what they want.

    So when volunteers (me) tells other volunteers (Woodway). "Ignore them, it's common to hear from people who don't have a clue, or don't want to help themselves". As a reader you might have more insight to this common back and forth topic, that has and will repeat for years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    People who comment on dumbing down don't really do trailwork. And some people who do trailwork and don't really know what they're doing might not understand either.

    Lloyds likely wasn't as tech around the roots until the trail got super popular, and compaction combined with water erosion exposed the roots to the extent they are now. They didn't start out like that. i would assume you're bringing it back to more of it's original state.

    As people who work on trails it's always important to have a sense for rider experience. There are times when trail work can sanitize a trail certainly. But most of the time you have to construct something that will be technical, you have to put in extra work to enable it to be sustainable. To stand up to heavy use...

    So unfortunately the critisism you may get is from people who are bummed out. They spent weeks/months/years trying to manage a section, and even as the section has eroded and gotten even more difficult, they don't look at it from any other perspective than what they want.

    So when volunteers (me) tells other volunteers (Woodway). "Ignore them, it's common to hear from people who don't have a clue, or don't want to help themselves". As a reader you might have more insight to this common back and forth topic, that has and will repeat for years.
    Exactly...

    A couple of other points:
    -Standing water is not a technical feature. It is trail neglect
    -People generally only remember their most recent experiences on a trail
    -Every trail user should be required to put in at least 4 hrs of trail work a month
    -Once a trail is built it's not really finished. The maintenance part then kicks in
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    I rode PV yesterday including Lloyds. I still can't ride it clean, still 3 spots I can't make it through without putting my feet down, so has not been too dumbed down from point of view. Great work, thank you all. I would like to volunteer to help, but Thursdays are really my only open day, perhaps in the spring I will have some Saturdays free to help out. I live near there and love having these great trails so close by!

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    If you live nearby I'm sure Woodway would meet you out there on a Thursday or some afternoon to direct on something that needs being done that you could do on those days off. I tell people all the time that if they don't fell comfortable actuallt altering the trail bed, there are plenty of logistical things I could use help with. Moving materials, etc...

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    Squeaky Wheel
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    We have yards and yards of gravel to move. If you have a wheelbarrow and want to help out, PM me, and I can get you started.

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    How many trip with a Bob trailer will it take to move 5 yards of gravel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    How many trip with a Bob trailer will it take to move 5 yards of gravel?

    5 cubic yard = 867.849 065 6 gallon [US, dry]

    Your in for a workout with only ~8 gallons per trip

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    I'm gonna need to get an early start.

  18. #18
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    I've got another workparty scheduled for this sunday (1/15) and will be grateful for any help I can get! We may have a reporter/photographer from the Everett Herald out to do a story on Evergreen/PVCA and it would be good to get a decent turnout.

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    PVCA Update

    We made it to the bridge today, finishing the last section of the Lloyd trail. Will need some additional gravel amending to armor it up, but the worst sections have been rebuilt.

    It rained over 1" yesterday and overnight here in Woodinville. As we were pushing our wheelbarrows down the Lloyd trail the work we have done over the past couple months is obvious - a little mud here and there, but Lloyd was mostly dry. Unheard of after this much rain and very satisfying.

    Heres an example of what we worked on today:



    Thanks John, Alan and Doug for helping out today.

    Red Alder is next.

  20. #20
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    Awesome. No pics from last week?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Awesome. No pics from last week?
    You'll have to wait for the article in the newspaper.

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    So when are you working next? I'll have some free time coming up.

  23. #23
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    Maybe this weekend. Watch the evergreen calendar. Will post a workparty if things work out.

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    Nice! Do I need to pester Dave about Crossover and getting a load of gravel to 107th in your truck? (Saw him at Alpy on Sunday with the rest of greater Seattle.)

    When do you think the article will come out?

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    Rode Lloyds clean today!

    Perhaps not all that impressive, but after starting to ride at PV last summer today was the first time I rode Lloyds clean (is that the right term? did not put a foot down or have to stop) and wanted to share my accomplishment, and say thanks to all those who have put so much work into the trails at PV! Lloyds Detour is still another matter, lost track of how many times I had to get off the bike on LD so still something to work towards.

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    Squeaky Wheel
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    Hey congrats Smilely!

    Of course, we have been accused of "dumbing down" Lloyds with the recent work we did. But there are still plenty of roots and tech, so you can be proud (although I have to ask: did you ride the teeter?).

    Now, when you can clean the south end of two trees on a wet day, you'll REALLY know you are making progress!

    I have a report that there are some trees down in the Lloyd Detour. Can you confirm?

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    Woodway, yes there are two trees that have fallen across Lloyds detour.

    There have been three main trouble spots for me on Llyods and I may have bypassed one of them today by taking the detour but perhaps some of the recent work has also made it a but easier overall too. I have ridden the teeter many times but was going the wrong way today for that. I started this summer on my 20 year old full rigid MTN bike from college and then got a full suspension in September. I have been skiing a lot this winter so have not gotten too many rides in this winter. I'll have to take a look at Two Trees, I do enjoy a challenge. I have not tried many parts of Cedar (can't recall second part of its name) mostly due to lack of confidence, but also because I am riding alone and concerned about getting hurt with no one around. Hope to bump into you or some others someday.

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    Thanks Smilely. When you ride the detour, make sure you ride from Waypoint 18 to Waypoint 17. The trail is actually setup to ride in that direction. It's going to get marked one-way at some point (when I get time to get the signs made up). I'll take care of those downed trees over the weekend.

    Keep at it. If you can master the roots at Paradise Valley, many of the other lowland riding spots will seem easy by comparison!

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    Did I hear Bob trailer and chainsaw?

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    Woodway

    What method are you guys using for mixing dirt and with gravel? Are you pre-mixing in a wheelbarrow? or pouring over the fill and the tamping?

    Thanks
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    No premixing going on. just sprinkling the gravel over the gold dirt and tamp down. sometimes a couple or few layers (in bad spots)

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    I'll modify what Jimba said a little.

    Where we filled really deep sections of trails, more than about 6-8" of fill, we dump several buckets of dirt that we mined from a borrow pit onto the trail and then mix gravel in. We pack that down in layers and then put more gravel on top and pack the whole thing down.

    For more shallow fills, we put the gravel down on top and scratch it in with the tongs of the McLeod and then pack the whole thing down. Often we will come back and lay more gravel on top to really make sure the filled area is armored.

    Jimba, yes chainsaw and bob. Hope you can make it!

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    It's my birthday Sunday and I cant imagine doing anything better than whacking a couple trees with a chainsaw!

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    The two downed trees on Lloyds detour are gone.

  35. #35
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    We wrapped the Lloyd Trail today. It's rained so much up here in the past week and the water table is so high that our borrow pits were filling up with water before we could mine mineral soil out of them

    Thanks Jim (happy birthday), Doug, John and Alan for your help!

    Lloyd Trail is as good as 218 man-hours of work and ten yards of gravel can make it. It's riding pretty dry and I hope y'all like it.

    Now, Red Alder.

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    Got out there nice and early today, and was suprised to see how much snow was still in the valley considering how warm it was in Seattle yesterday. Very glad it was early and so cold though, at least some of the mud was frozen still.

    Quite a lot of really deep and wide puddles on pretty much all the trails, and enough snow on Cedar Run woodwork to make it unrideable (something my rear brake rotor knows all too well now, sigh...) The trail from Mainline to the mtb park coming from Cedar had some puddles 30 feet long by 10 feet wide, and almost 12 inches deep.

    I will say that Lloyds was perfect though, not a single puddle and MUCH more fun to ride as well. Definitely the driest trail out there, which is probably the first time I could ever say that in early March Great work guys!

    There were quite a lot of small trees and large branches over the other trails, I think I must have moved about 15-20 from Southern Traverse and Mainline alone. Added some more logs to the log rollover someone started on the large tree down at the top of Cedar.
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    Large Tree down at the top of Cedar?

    Can you tell me a little more about this- is if before or after the "morning wood" log ride?

    I haven't been out there in quite a while, but will try to put a work party into cedar run at some point this spring.

    That RH downhill wood berm (with the tree on the inside) can be treacherous when wet!

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    It's before if I remember right. Nothing major, just a small 8" diameter tree fell over the trail and was about 12" above it. Someone had started to pile a couple logs on either side so you could ride over it. Very tame, almost looks like it was part of the trail design.

    The RH berm was exactly where I lost it, slide off the right side and ended up wedging my bike between the tree and the woodwork. Bent the crap out of my rotor in the process, but I was able to straighten it at home just fine.
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    I have riden most of the trails several times over the past week and have to agree with everything Terekith said. I also found the down tree on Cedar run, no one had placed any logs there yet, I tried going over it, yeah that did not work out so well :-) oh well no real harm done to me or my bike. Mainline does have a huge big wide "pond" in on area, a stream going across it in another spot, and a stream running about 15 feet right down the trail in another spot. Lloyds, no puddles or mud, really great work done there!

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    I was out there today too... lots of fun.

    Lot's of puddles and the snow was great!!!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    Got out there nice and early today, and was suprised to see how much snow was still in the valley considering how warm it was in Seattle yesterday.
    Haha, there may still be snow there in June. The cold air just seems to collect in PVCA, and combined with the dense tree cover, it takes a long time for the snow to melt!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    Quite a lot of really deep and wide puddles on pretty much all the trails, and enough snow on Cedar Run woodwork to make it unrideable (something my rear brake rotor knows all too well now, sigh...) The trail from Mainline to the mtb park coming from Cedar had some puddles 30 feet long by 10 feet wide, and almost 12 inches deep.
    There has been over an inch of rain/snow up here in Woodinville this past week, and it takes a couple days for the trails to drain. A few of those big puddles on mainline between Cedar Run and the plateau (aka MTB Park) are eventually going to get filled in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarekith View Post
    I will say that Lloyds was perfect though, not a single puddle and MUCH more fun to ride as well. Definitely the driest trail out there, which is probably the first time I could ever say that in early March Great work guys!
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilely View Post
    Mainline does have a huge big wide "pond" in on area, a stream going across it in another spot, and a stream running about 15 feet right down the trail in another spot. Lloyds, no puddles or mud, really great work done there!
    That stream across the trail is staying, but it's easy to ride through. The huge wide pond - that's a seasonal problem. We have decided to build a ladder off to the side of the trail for bikes and peds. Not until the fall, though. Also a scout is going to be building a ladder at the bottom of south traverse, near the bottom of cedar run. It's his eagle project and he expects to get started as soon as he gets the rest of his material donations lined up.

    If you like the way the Lloyd Trail is riding, consider coming out and helping us do the same to Red Alder. WP posted for this weekend.

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    Nice start on Red Alder

    I rode PV this afternoon including Red Alder. Someone move a lot of gravel and did a lot of clean up and work this weekend. Just wanted to say thanks.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilely View Post
    I rode PV this afternoon including Red Alder. Someone move a lot of gravel and did a lot of clean up and work this weekend. Just wanted to say thanks.
    Evergreen loaned us their Power Toter and we were able to move about three yards of gravel up the trail. That toter could haul four wheelbarrows of gravel at a time, but it was like holding onto a bucking bronco. Manuvering it on singletrack was challenging. Only lost control twice resulting in the load dumping where we did not want it. That was a little hairy.

    Weve started rebuilding the trail from the north end, working south. Eric was raking debris off the trailtread which was much appreciated. John, Alan, Brian and Gary were working on drainage and the trail tread. Borneo and Dave put some time in at the south end of the park on the crossover trail. Lot's of good trail karma at PVCA this weekend.

    I'll be posting another workparty for next weekend.

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    Thanks for all your hard work, I just recently got out there for my first ride since summertime. Maybe that sounds weird but this past year has been some fine fishing for me, which is my true passion. Now that the rivers are closed again and I have had to put down the flyrod, now its time to ride bikes again. Lloyd's trail was very nice....places that I had problems previously were much more rideable, "dumbed down" I think not, if the trails don't get repaired then we won't have anything to ride on in the long run. Thanks for your hard work!!

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    Made more progress on Red Alder today (thanks John and Alan, the trailwork 'machines, Joseph, Brian, Natalie and Eric). There is a lot more to do - maybe 20% of the trail is done. It was so wet out there today that the sumps on the lower section of the trail were full of water because the water table is so high. We drained a couple of them with buckets only to watch them fill back up.

    We ran into three riders on the trail today. I tried to nicely suggest that they refrain from riding the trails for a few days to let them drain a bit. When things are this wet a lot of damage can be done.

    Here is a before and after:




    The bottom of South Traverse is flooded. If you come down Cedar Run, you are going to have to go up South Traverse to Lloyd. The Boy Scout should be starting on the boardwalk over this spot soon (it's his Eagle project).


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    i love before and afters. Wish i coulda done more without getting in trouble at the "other" place.
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    Wow. That's the most water I've ever seen down there. Looks like we'll need a ferry landing instead of a boardwalk there.
    Hoping to get down to just above that on Crossover and the east end of ST tomorrow clearing drains and armoring.

  48. #48
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    If you want to amend the soil, there is maybe a wheelbarrow full of gravel just inside the fence at 107th. There's about five yards over at the yellow house. Thanks for putting in some time out there Bob!

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    3.5 hours out there until I couldn't lift the grub hoe anymore. Made it from near the Cathedral on the south end of Lloyd to the alders on the old Crossover Trail. (Now the East end of Southern Traverse.) What a muddy mess. Still some to do but much better and the puddles are drained. Nice to see that trail getting a lot of bike tracks. Many don't even know it's there. Stump Pump skinny combo!
    The highlight (or, lowlight) of the afternoon was overhearing two guys about 3:30 going northbound on Lloyd nearby lamenting about dumbed down trails, trail nazis, and, "they're doing this to all the trails out here"...

    People who know me know what I was thinking...

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    I can see why fixing chronic wet spots makes the land mgr happy, but I think Lloyd challenges have been sanitized and that makes me sad. I hope the very top segment of Two Trees will be kept wild. PVCA has plenty of big wet spots that need work, esp. on Mainline.

  51. #51
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    Hey Tom - I beleive that the trail will toughen up as things get ridden in.

    Red Alder is getting a similiar workover. I guess I should ask if anyone who rides Red Alder right now is enjoying the experience? I suppose there are some people who might enjoy taking several pounds of mud with them and riding through hub-deep puddles, but I don't think they represent the majority.

    As an organization, we are about sustainable trails, and that trail was not sustainable. We could see it and Sno County Parks could see it. The alternative was to close it in the winter.

    No plans to touch Two Trees.

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    I think of it this way. Bike trails are like ski runs and since Lloyd is the only route open to us on that side of the park and gets a lot of beginner use, it's going to be designated a "green circle-blue square" trail. The detour will stay "black diamond". Keep all the noobs off it and we can have a rooty/gnarly mess. What we are trying to curb is the random "it's too hard for me" (said in a whiny voice) issue we all see at places like Tolt where any time a root pops up, a braid around it is ridden in. that said, I'd like to throw more mineral on Two Trees myself just to help keep people on the actual trail.

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    i spent a little time a few years back on Tribulation at Summit Ridge in Black Diamond. The experience there compels me to speak to how challenging it is to adopt a trail that was not sustainably built. You gotta work the drainage, armor up weak spots, build back erosive spots, build bridges, turnpike areas where a trail should have never been routed, rock work rock work and more rock work... And in all that work take the extra time to honor the original character of the trail.
    It's not an easy task, you have to put a ton of thought, and always more work into the process.
    There is something to be said for a trail with natural ruggedness, and trails set aside to accentuate that them i.e. Lloyds Detour, should be protected as trails that are designed to provide overt challenge.
    But from what i see from the overall work effort in total at Paradise, the word sanitizing would not be a word i'd use to describe period.
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  54. #54
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    I happen to agree with the thought that as these trails are ridden, the gravel laid down now will get worked into those spots that previously had been challenging. I have to think this will help the park stay open, which in the whole scheme of things is what we all want. I recently rode down in Corvalis at McDonald Forest where conditions are similar to here, very wet. They have done some tremendous work on there trail system to allow mtbr's to still have trails to ride throughout the winter, not just closing every trail and only allowing mtbr's access to fireroads. This is the usual technique used around here in the winter. By "fixing" our trails we have the ability to keep them open and usable by all users, isn't that really the whole reason for the park in the first place. The more people who enjoy the park, means the more people that will likely come volunteer their time to do trailwork in the future. I may not have done the official work parties, but have helped clear the trails almost every time I've been out or at the very least identify trees that have fallen so those that have chainsaws and permits for cutting them can be allerted to where said trees are...I guess in this way I have helped keep these trails open for all.

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    I feel compelled to add to my remarks after the responses (and thanks, I appreciate the conversation). Let me emphasize, I'm totally down with fixing wet spots, and realize that doing so can entail losing a fun challenge; what I saw on Lloyd was in some cases root challenges that are way up high being eliminated or so buried in gravel that they're no longer a challenge. But if Lloyd has to serve as a trunk trail for noobs, that's a consideration too; I was not aware of any such designation, assuming that function was fulfilled by Mainline.

    I saw a comment someplace that challenging rooty spots often induce riders to avoid them by widening the trail, and that's also a valid concern. Maybe one solution is to put downed logs/branches alongside as curbs in strategic locations if a conscious decision is made to retain the rooty feature.

    Let me also say I really, really appreciate all the work going on at PVCA; we are so lucky to have this trail system!

  56. #56
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    I am sensitive to the concerns of "sanitizing" the trail. I like riding that trail myself and have always enjoyed the challenge.

    When we filled in roots, it was generally because the ruts between the roots were holding water. Because the ruts were holding water, the tires going over the roots/ruts were digging the ruts out deeper and deeper. This in turn was exposing more of the roots (in some cases the dirt around the roots had completely eroded leaving the roots in the air) and causing riders to take a wider and wider path around them as more and more of the roots were exposed. A vicious cycle.

    We filled and gravelled the ruts knowing that they would pack down over time. You'll also notice that we dragged logs, etc. along the trail to narrow it. Although I have noticed that peeps have been moving some of the logs back out of the way. Ultimately, we want to transplant ferns to revegetate and narrow the trail back up. But that is a task for another day.

    While the trail is a bit easier now, you have to admit that it's nice to be able to ride it and not come out the other side caked in mud, yes?

  57. #57
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    Brian and Tom i think it's great how you both have been on point helping mt. bikers assemble to help the trails.

    You look at a trail like Tapeworm and how it's evolved or devolved over the years. Not to take away from people who've worked on it since the original builder left, but it's never had the opportunity of anything beyond grassroots help, minus any funding or support. Some things are easier because of erosion and over-use i.e. original stunts are gone, trails are wider with go-arounds that never existed before, and some things are more difficult root sections are more exposed, mud and rutted sections get muddier and ruttier.

    Then you read on the Trail forum about how many persons who organize work parties are getting bombarded with criticism about sanitizing. As i also hear from a few people around here who have spoken to me towards receiving this criticism.

    It's a tough thing to handle for sure, and i don't mean to minimize an opinion where something is made easier, and how that detracts to the experience. We all love challenge in our riding, otherwise we'd all ride on the pavement. But the word sanitizing being used brings about bad connotation, and i've come to learn should be only carefully used. And for only this reason is that most people won't understand enough to see that lack of organized help is what really sanitizes Tapeworm, and how that comes about slowly over years and years. But they may see a few fixes on a section of trail that is eroding, feel that this effort is sanitizing, and starts debating in different circles without much understanding.

    There are other factors too of why decisions are made, but again whenever i ride Paradise it reminds me a bit of the Tapeworm i used to know, not the sad husk that it is today. And the one work party i went to, there were quite a few knowledgable folk, all who gathered together and grabbed a piece of track, and worked together, each putting their signatures on a fun little technical trail. That was pretty rad!

    i'm hoping my words here provide a bit more context to those who bother to read it, and hopefully provide a bit of insight.
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  58. #58
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    Conditions, and weather too, we're great at PV today. Looked like even more work has benn done on Red Alder.

  59. #59
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    John, Allan and I worked on Red Alder yesterday (thanks John and Allan!). We have a lot of work left to do in order to finish Red Alder. For perspective, Lloyd Trail took 12 workparties to complete and we have only held four Red Alder workparties so far. I expect to post another Red Alder workparty on the calendar for next weekend. More hands means the work is completed faster!

  60. #60
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    Spring has Spurng

    Thanks to all working on these trails. I had a great ride yesterday and even met Smilely on the trail for some fast bikepark laps. good times!

  61. #61
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    evilbetty, great riding yesterday. What you call "some fast bikepark laps" left my legs so tired last night! Good to get pushed outside my comfort zone.

    woodway, do post any work parties, I really want to attend one and help out, just waiting for that combination of free time to be in sync with when one happens.

  62. #62
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    Another great day out there on Sunday. I had hoped to lend a hand on Red Alder with some gravel or a shovel or something, but I got a late start and didn't see anybody working by the time I passed thru.

    Lots of people and pets out there enjoying the trails. Nice to see the happy dogs running free, though some riders weren't so thrilled about the untethered pooches.

    Rode in to the intersection of Lloyd, Southern Traverse, and Forest Ridge just in time to catch a father & 4-5 year old daughter walking their bikes thru the gate, past the clearly marked FOOT PATH ONLY sign, then hop back on their bikes, as if the sign was meant for someone else.

    "Not setting a very good example, you know... Makes us all look bad."

    And with that they stepped off and continued walking. At least until they were out of sight...

    Thanks to all who make these trails enjoyable for all of us...
    trust the tread

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  63. #63
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    We finished working around 1:30. It's drying up pretty fast out there, but I think that the difference between the "unworked" and "worked" sections of Red Alder is still pretty obvious.

  64. #64
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    I also had a good ride on sunday. The trails look much better this year than last year for this time of year. I dont know if its weather or you guys maintaining things, but good work!

  65. #65
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    Lloyd teeter is gone...

    Jimba has always had it in for the teeter on the Lloyd trail. Ever since it bucked him off several years ago.

    We were planning to meet at Paradise for a little Lloyd trail work today. Jimba arrived early and he sent me a text that he was already down the Lloyd trail "cleaning up a few things". I rode down Lloyd's and came upon him jumping up and down on the teeter, cackling and singing Alice Cooper's "Schools Out for Summer". I tried to stop him, I really did, but as soon as I dismounted from my bike he pulled a knife and asked me if I felt lucky. So all I could do was stand by in horror as he finished the song and the teeter...



    That's just how it happened. I swear. You can see the front of his bike in the photo. Nobody else has a bike that clean.

  66. #66
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    That was a fun feature.
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  67. #67
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    Quick. Rebuild it before the county notices.

    Really though. I was shocked it lasted that long anyways. 12 years?

  68. #68
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    I want to apologize for my behavior, I think my medication was a bit off this afternoon.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    Jimba has always had it in for the teeter on the Lloyd trail. [...] You can see the front of his bike in the photo. Nobody else has a bike that clean.
    You know that he actually just buys a new bike after each ride, right?

    Never gets old.
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  70. #70
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    What is needed to replace it? I have some left over lumber from a building project. Would it need to be Cedar or could it be Fir? I assume a 2"x10" but not sure how long, 8-10 feet long?
    "It never gets easier, you just go faster" Greg LeMond

  71. #71
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    material is not the problem, we need the official OK. that is being worked by the godfather himself.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1de View Post
    You know that he actually just buys a new bike after each ride, right?
    He sure rides them good though...

    From the way the teeter was broken, I think that someone broke it on purpose. If it broke under the weight of a bike, I think that the broken part of the board would have been down on the ground...

    In any case, I'll talk to the County this week about replacing it.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    He sure rides them good though...

    From the way the teeter was broken, I think that someone broke it on purpose. If it broke under the weight of a bike, I think that the broken part of the board would have been down on the ground...

    In any case, I'll talk to the County this week about replacing it.
    The perp may have put it back together, if it did indeed fall to the ground, so that it cuold still be at least an up-and-over ramp.

    A good friend of mine showed me his photo of the broken teeter today too. He knelt and said a few good words yesterday at the site. He is completely ready to go out and fix it too. I coaxed him to wait a bit to make sure that the park system gives approval first!

  74. #74
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    Thanks for coaxing him. We need to make sure we get proper approvals and do this right.

  75. #75
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    If they say no, I'll do it when no one is watching...

  76. #76
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    I appreciate the sentiment, but...

    In order to build in the park, we agreed to follow a process with the county. The process includes up front approvals and regular inspections and maintenance. As soon as we go outside the process is when we lose the trust of the county. Yeah following the process can be time-consuming and a pain, but it is what it is...

  77. #77
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    Fine, captain buzz kill.

    If it would put the relationship with the county in jeopardy, then it's definitely not worth it.

  78. #78
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    Woodway, you seem to be the man in the know so thought I'd a question I've been curious about. What are the future plans, or possibilities for PV? Any additions or changes being considered?
    "It never gets easier, you just go faster" Greg LeMond

  79. #79
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    went and checked this place out for the first time yesterday, fell off that bridge on lloyd's trail and rolled my ankle 15 minutes later haha
    it felt fine after a few minutes so we rode around for a couple hours i just knew i wasn't gonna be able to walk today


  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilely View Post
    Woodway, you seem to be the man in the know so thought I'd a question I've been curious about. What are the future plans, or possibilities for PV? Any additions or changes being considered?

    been wondering this too.. wasnt there plans to build up the "bike park" area.. Duthie is so far away..

    also not mtb related but are they still going to do a phase 2 across the street? (or maybe it's already finished i have no idea at all..)

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabass07 View Post
    If it would put the relationship with the county in jeopardy, then it's definitely not worth it.
    Process started wit the County. Sno County planner in charge of the park is busy on another project, so it's going to be 2-3 weeks before we have a decision on replacing the teeter. Stay tuned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilely View Post
    Woodway, you seem to be the man in the know so thought I'd a question I've been curious about. What are the future plans, or possibilities for PV? Any additions or changes being considered?
    Yes! Three projects being worked on presently:

    1. Red Alder rebuild (underway)

    2. A scout is planning to get started soon on a 120' long ladder bridge on Southern Traverse, near the bottom of Cedar Run. It will allow bikes and peds to walk/ride Southern Traverse when it floods seasonally.

    3. Looks like we may have a big (~40 person) volunteer group out mid-May to build a turnpike on Mainline, that section between Lloyd and Red Alder that floods every winter (plus fill in muddy/deep spots on the mainline).

    Additionally several future projects planned or in discussion:

    1. Two additional trails in the south end of the park, located around WP's 23, 24 and 25. Expect to start construction on these in the fall (after Red Alder work is done).

    2. Tabletops and booters on the trail the circles the plateau area (in discussion).

    3. A couple more features in the Lloyd detour (planned/approved, just need to start construction).

    4. Re-routes on the section of Cascara that follows the old railroad grade to get away from those deep muddy sections and make it more fun to ride (planned).

    Quote Originally Posted by b3nj4m1n View Post
    went and checked this place out for the first time yesterday, fell off that bridge on lloyd's trail and rolled my ankle 15 minutes later haha
    it felt fine after a few minutes so we rode around for a couple hours i just knew i wasn't gonna be able to walk today
    Ouch on the ankle, hope it is OK. Cool photo, I see the rock lady has been busy on the plateau. You can also see her work around the log skinny at the top of Cedar Run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Awake View Post
    been wondering this too.. wasnt there plans to build up the "bike park" area.. Duthie is so far away..
    also not mtb related but are they still going to do a phase 2 across the street? (or maybe it's already finished i have no idea at all..)
    See above, "bike park" will start with the trail that circles the plateau trails and proceed from there. Phase 2 will never be open to bikes. You would not want to ride in there anyway, it's very wet and swampy.

  82. #82
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    Cool, I could use those rocks for a more viable project....

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Cool, I could use those rocks for a more viable project....
    I was thinking the same thing. Maybe someone can convince the "rock lady" that a drained and cobble-stoned over puddle is art.

  84. #84
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    I've been wondering about the rock art out there. So who is the Rock Lady and why is she doing this?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbikur View Post
    I've been wondering about the rock art out there. So who is the Rock Lady and why is she doing this?
    She lives next to the park and hikes around in there a lot. As to why? I've never asked her. My best guess is that there is some sort of force field between the rocks and when she get's enough of them stacked, the field will reach resonance painting the number 42 in the sky...

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    She lives next to the park and hikes around in there a lot. As to why? I've never asked her. My best guess is that there is some sort of force field between the rocks and when she get's enough of them stacked, the field will reach resonance painting the number 42 in the sky...
    Of course, that makes complete sense. I got a Blair Witch vibe when I first saw the stacked rocks.

  87. #87
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    Jimba tells me that there was a dirt bike running around out at Paradise last night. I let the rangers know, but if you happen to be out there and encounter the bike and can get a plate # (if it has one), we can pass that to the rangers who can look it up and go have a talk with the individual.

    Really usafe to have a dirt bike ripping up and down the mainline trail. Lot's of families, especially families with little kids, use that trail...

  88. #88
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    Yea, I hike there with my kids. I'd be pretty livid if I saw an asshat on a dirtbike.

  89. #89
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    Could use some help

    If you have ridden Paradise in the winter, undoubtably you have been on the mainline trail south towards Red Alder, and a little past the intersection with Lloyds you've come across "Lake Paradise" - the section of mainline that fills with water every winter. Even after the water goes away, it seems to stay mucky until about July.

    We are finally going to fix that section of trail by building up a turnpike that will keep wheels dry year-round. Snohomish County is dropping us 17 yards of material at a neighborhood entrance and we need to wheelbarrow that material onto the mainline to build the turnpike.

    On May 19th, I have ~40 high-school age youth coming out from an area church to help move the material. I could use some more adult volunteers. And wheelbarrows, I need lot's of wheelbarrows. Plus shovels and steel rakes.

    If you have been riding at Paradise and want to give back, here is your chance. The work is pretty easy (we will make the kids wheelbarrow the materials),and it's going to make a huge difference in cleaning up a long-standing problem spot in the park.

    Evergreen MTB Calendar

  90. #90
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    Got out here for a ride yesterday. Dry trails, rolling clean. Only a few squishy spots in the bad areas but no standing water.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    On May 19th, I have ~40 high-school age youth coming out from an area church to help move the material. I could use some more adult volunteers. And wheelbarrows, I need lot's of wheelbarrows. Plus shovels and steel rakes.

    If you have been riding at Paradise and want to give back, here is your chance. The work is pretty easy (we will make the kids wheelbarrow the materials),and it's going to make a huge difference in cleaning up a long-standing problem spot in the park.

    Evergreen MTB Calendar
    I'd love to lend my wheelbarrow, rake, and shovel and be a union-boss! Unfortunately, I'm headed out of town this weekend. Hope you get all the stuff you need to keep the 40 youngsters working.

  92. #92
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    This is going to be one of the more interesting workparties I have ever lead. The kids are being organized through a local church and they are telling me that they are rounding up a bunch of dads to come help. At least I hope so.

    Shameless plug: Thanks to Mike Westra and Evergreen for extending the Power Toter rental for another week so that we could use the Toter this weekend at Paradise. Evergreen rocks!
    If you Mountain Bike in the Seattle area and you don't have an Evergreen membership, you should go sign up now. I'll make it easy for you.

  93. #93
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    We had a fun workparty today at Paradise Valley. About 30 kids and parents from a local church came out, and Walt also came out to help me represent evergreen. We built a nice turnpike across that wet area on the mainline trail and filled in a few of the deep holes too (especially that one at the intersection of the Mainline and Red Alder). A few pics:

    Walt supervising the kids:


    Here are some of the kids who helped out today:


    Before and After:

  94. #94
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    Big Thank you to those kids and everyone else who worked on all of that. I rode there yesterday afternoon and was amazed at how much gravel had been moved! You must have been a slave driver :-)
    "It never gets easier, you just go faster" Greg LeMond

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    Hey woodway, you put a dip or causeway through that? There is pretty serious flow though that area at times that we would not want to damn up.

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    Or even dam up the flow!

  97. #97
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    The kids moved 20 yards of gravel in about 3 hours. They were tired

    Josh, we are going to install an 8" pipe later this summer.

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    Wow....

    Missed you today Woodway. I gather you were too tired? No rain and trails were in great shape.

  99. #99
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    Yeah, work thing came up so could not make it over. I made up for it by getting up early and riding Iverson->Poo Poo Point->Iverson->Preston->NW Timber. OK, now I am a little tired Happy to hear that you had a good day over there.

  100. #100
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    It's dry! Like everything, it's totally dry! Trails were riding nice today, and I got out there early enough that it was nice and cool too. Didn't have long to ride today since work is piling up, but I got my new bike yesterday and needed to get out at least for a little bit!

    Trail dog had fun too, though I think he misses my loud Hope Pro II hubs to give him a warning that we're about to go fast

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