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  1. #1
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    Need for a gun in the woods?

    So we just moved up to the Eastside (of Seattle) from the San Francisco Bay Area. Several people in a row in one week (including some very large, strong movers guys) tell my wife that they always have a gun in the car in case of wildlife encounters (i.e. bears, cougars, etc.) and that it isn't safe to go into the woods without a gun. FWIW, my wife's cousin's husband who is a cop also brings his gun everywhere.

    So my question is...is it so unsafe in the woods that it is necessary to have a gun at all times? I've got to admit that coming from the SF Metro area and having backpacked/camped for 20+ years, the idea of carrying a gun around all the time is a bit foreign to me.

  2. #2
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    The people that you talked to are idiots.

  3. #3
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    Yes, IDIOTS!

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    I've been in the greater San Fran Metro area frequently. Thats the area you absolutely should be packin!

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    yeah, idiots. Most of the time I would say that wildlife doesn't even really care about you and if they do they usually runaway from you...think about how weird you look to them, a man (probably unfamiliar as it is) on a bike.

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    In all the years there has been mountain biking in the PNW, I can only think of one or two wildlife encounters where someone got hurt. When you think about the MILLIONS of hours of riding that has happened here since the 80's, you are way more likely to be attacked by a motorist when you drive to the trailhead. Only the paranoid and fools carry heat on the trails here.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the comedic moment. That gun in the car will do wonders for you when you are out on the trail. Mo-rons...

  8. #8
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    Well apparently I am a moron, idiot or whatever you want to call me.....

    You ask if it is safe to go into the woods without a gun. Well that depends. If you do not encounter a bear, cougar, tweeker or need one for some other life threatening emergency situation than yes, it was safe. To me that is kind of like asking if it is safe to not wear a seatbelt. I have been driving for 20 years and have never been in an accident so for me it would have been safe to drive without a seatbelt, I use one because I do not think that way.

    I spend between 50-90 days a year in the woods doing various recreational activities. I carry a small lightweight revolver pretty much all the time, especially in the woods.

    In my years of outdoor activities I have been face to face with an angry mother bear, a very horny bighorn sheep that wanted to head butt me, a bison at 5 feet that made it clear I was trespassing, tweekers that were cooking meth, thieves that were stealing gear from cars and camps. I have also been lost overnight where having a gun could have fed me had I not found my way out in a timely manner. It also could have been used to signal help. I have friends that have been attacked and or stalked by cougars. A friend of mine has a cougar skin on his wall that he shot off of his fatherís back, likely saving his life. There have been dozens of bear, goat and cougar attacks in Washington over the years. A man was recently killed by a goat in the Olympic national park. The parks department has even recently changed laws allowing guns in the national park due to the risk off animal attacks.

    What are the chances of you being a victim? I donít know, probably small. I think you have a better chance to be attacked by a person. Either way I go back to the seatbelt analogy. I think I would rather just have the tools and knowledge to take care of myself if I need to.

    The revolver I carry weighs less than a pound and fits nicely in my pack. Again I see it as a tool just like my bike tools, and other gear. If having the means to take care of yourself when faced with creatures, people or situations that want to harm you makes you and idiot than so be it. I think not having the wherewithal, tools and knowledge to take care of yourself makes you an irresponsible, narrow minded human. You make your own opinion.
    Last edited by thehotrodpig; 01-12-2012 at 02:05 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    they always have a gun in the car in case of wildlife encounters (i.e. bears, cougars, etc.)
    That is silly. All you need to stave off bear and cougar attacks is a riding buddy who is slower than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotrodpig View Post
    The revolver I carry weighs less than a pound and fits nicely in my pack. Again I see it as a tool just like my bike tools, and other gear.
    That is reasonable. Especially if your riding buddies are not disposable.

  10. #10
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    Sometimes I love web discussions. Like a moth to a light.... First of all, they are mo-rons for leaving the gun in the car if they are going to bring one at all. Read the inital post. Second, it's very likely IMHO that little revolver will only piss off the bear/cougar even more. IF you can get it out of the pack in time. Sure, it may be worth having. Not judging there. Only if you can get to it in time. And, I've seen way too many instances where it takes 5 minutes just to find a bike pump...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Sometimes I love web discussions. Like a moth to a light.... First of all, they are mo-rons for leaving the gun in the car if they are going to bring one at all. Read the inital post. Second, it's very likely IMHO that little revolver will only piss off the bear/cougar even more. IF you can get it out of the pack in time. Sure, it may be worth having. Not judging there. Only if you can get to it in time. And, I've seen way too many instances where it takes 5 minutes just to find a bike pump...
    Its an internet forum, discussing opinions is what they are for, not sure what moths have to do with it. Guess I could use the same comment towards your initial reply but I don't see the point.

    I don't recall giving any details about the little revolver or the caliber so I am not sure where your assumptions come from regarding its ability to do its job, whatever it may be.

  12. #12
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    Question for gun packing mountain bikers, how many times have you seriously needed a gun in the woods?

    I never have, well one time when Bob wouldn't shut up, but that's a different case.

  13. #13
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    Have been trolling around outside in this state state first on the Oly pen and now in central Wa. All year 'round. Day and night, the latter quite a lot while dog mushing. I own guns FWIW.

    Kittitas co has a fairly dense cougar population and I've only tangled up with one, and yelling at it and throwing gravel was enough. Bears... Your typical encounter will be suddenly seeing a bear butt running away. If we had a lot of moose maybe I'd change my mind, but in that case you need a serious hand-cannon anyway. I know folks who carry every time they're in the woods because of 'safety' and honestly I don't get it. I have a full survival kit perminantly in my camelbak but I just can't bring myself to that level of paranoia.

    City freaks me out though, especially DRIVING in the city. I'll take the mathematical odds of making it in and out of the back country safely without a gun ANY day over the hazards of Peugeot sound traffic!
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    It cracks me up how some folks call carrying a gun paranoia. Its a simple tool, nothing less nothing more. If you don't feel the need to carry that tool that is fine. It is your choice to carry whatever you think is necessary when you are in the woods or in the city. Paranoia has nothing to do with it.

  15. #15
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    Firstly I don't care for the name calling.
    I spend about 342 days a year in the woods riding, night riding, building trail,hiking,running. Mostly solo.I do not believe I would be able to get a gun out of a pack in enough time to be effective. I carried concealed in my twenties and stopped altogether because I am far more likely to put myself in a dangerous situation if I have a firearm. Carrying gives me a different mentality, I am paranoid when carrying, evrything takes on a different light. Guns kill...
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  16. #16
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    I was raised around guns, my Dad is like Charlton Heston...
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    Quote Originally Posted by crtlnd View Post
    Firstly I don't care for the name calling.
    I spend about 342 days a year in the woods riding, night riding, building trail,hiking,running. Mostly solo.I do not believe I would be able to get a gun out of a pack in enough time to be effective. I carried concealed in my twenties and stopped altogether because I am far more likely to put myself in a dangerous situation if I have a firearm. Carrying gives me a different mentality, I am paranoid when carrying, evrything takes on a different light. Guns kill...
    You bring up a very good reason why you should not carry a gun.

    Guns do not kill, people kill. Sometimes a gun is used as the tool. More commonly a car and alcohol are the tools.

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    Than it surprises me you would make a statement that "guns kill",, perhaps in jest?

  19. #19
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    I wouldn't say anyone's a moron for carrying a gun. They are fool-hearty in thinking they'll pull a gun out of a pack, holster or whatever in time to kill/deter an attacking cougar. If you are about to be attacked by a cougar, you aren't even going to know it happened - let alone pull out a gun in time.

    My ammunition for Bear/Cougar are two ferocious trail dogs. They make so much gawddamn noise that any self-respecting animal should be a mile away from us. I do a LOT of bushwhacking/scouting/building in the middle of nowhere....no starbucks, no golf courses, no cell phone coverage and I've never considered bringing a gun with me. That said, a buddy is building a trail where there is a lot of cougar evidence and has run across it twice (guessing a den is nearby) and has been carrying a gun when he goes up solo to work. It does give him some peace of mind, but again he's in the middle of nowhere building trail where there is nothing currently.

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  20. #20
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    The good news in most of the state is that there's active hunting pressure on these cats, so if they get overt they're likely to get creased some time in the fall if nothing else. I honestly believe over time this affects their behavior. We've also had some WSFW studies in this area where cats were treed with hounds, tranqed and dropped out of a tree, and collared/inventoried. This is a Really Bad Day for Big Kitty, and IMO reinforces their avoidance of humans. They can live, eat, and reproduce even on the edges of populated areas without folks knowing as long as they're sufficiently motivated to stay undercover.

    Most of the horrible injury/fatality attacks seem to be coming out of California, where hunting or harassing cougar is illegal. I have long speculated that this causes MORE problems for cats over the long haul as they can be completely brazen with humans without consequence.

    We've had a cat in our 'hood off an on over the last few years, but we're so overrun with mule deer that they aren't even bothering with people, livestock, or pets. The whole arrangement works fine, and I don't see a reason to change it unless it actually poses a problem.
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  21. #21
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    A gun is designed for one thing, and it ain't playing with legos.
    Yeppers i'd shoot a lot of people, cause I'm tired of stoopid people.
    ****, i'd just as soon stick a Pulaski in someones head.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    Question for gun packing mountain bikers, how many times have you seriously needed a gun in the woods?

    I never have, well one time when Bob wouldn't shut up, but that's a different case.
    Really?

    im not a hunter or a gun nut BUT:

    its not a matter of how many times did you need one in the woods it comes down to this:

    if you happen to roll up to a angry mtn lion, bear or other deadly animal that is showing signs that it will attack. would you want one or would you not?

    would anyone answer no?
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    *sigh* I'll retract the mo-ron name calling if anyone else thinks it's just fine to go through all the trouble just to leave the firearm in the car at the TH for some crackhead to break in and get... (That alone is where the reference applies.)

    Like many here, I carry way more tools than I think I'll ever need in my pack, just in case. But, a pistola has never been on that list. Don't see any reason.

    Might need one for the Stink Spoke ride on Saturday though. The poker card stop lines are terrible.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotrodpig View Post
    You bring up a very good reason why you should not carry a gun.

    Guns do not kill, people kill. Sometimes a gun is used as the tool. More commonly a car and alcohol are the tools.
    I don't commute during rush hour either...same reason...
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotrodpig View Post
    You bring up a very good reason why you should not carry a gun.

    Guns do not kill, people kill. Sometimes a gun is used as the tool. More commonly a car and alcohol are the tools.
    Hey wise guy, I quick drinking and driving 3 months ago.
    Well at least drinking, I still drive. Kinda sucks without a beer though.
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  26. #26
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    Our buddy Scott always carries his glock out here. *I* would have a better chance of getting to it in his pack when seconds really counted, which of course would present a problem if something was already chewing on his carcass. IMO it's far more likely that he's going to land on it and bend something up one of these days.

    Weasel has eaten a lot of my food over the years though, so go figure the usefulness-to-weight ratio.

    As far as the "what if a bear was mauling you/a cougar jumped out/an angry rhino was chasing you" scenario... I LOVE playing "what if", it's a fun game to follow to all logical conclusions!


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  27. #27
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    What if you spent all winter building a trail and someone on a horse disregards the new trail sign and ruins it?
    Would you want a gun then?
    Not me, i'd kill 'em...and I think a gun is the lazy mans way to kill things, i'd rather use my hands.
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    Court, you crack me up! Almost as much fun as Skookum.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by crtlnd View Post
    What if you spent all winter building a trail and someone on a horse disregards the new trail sign and ruins it?
    Would you want a gun then?
    Not me, i'd kill 'em...and I think a gun is the lazy mans way to kill things, i'd rather use my hands.
    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOverFence View Post
    Court, you crack me up! Almost as much fun as Skookum.
    Except I'm not totally sincere in my delusions..
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by crtlnd View Post
    Except I'm not totally sincere in my delusions..
    Touche! lol

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    So we just moved up to the Eastside (of Seattle) from the San Francisco Bay Area. Several people in a row in one week (including some very large, strong movers guys) tell my wife that they always have a gun in the car in case of wildlife encounters (i.e. bears, cougars, etc.) and that it isn't safe to go into the woods without a gun. FWIW, my wife's cousin's husband who is a cop also brings his gun everywhere.

    So my question is...is it so unsafe in the woods that it is necessary to have a gun at all times? I've got to admit that coming from the SF Metro area and having backpacked/camped for 20+ years, the idea of carrying a gun around all the time is a bit foreign to me.
    I was born and raised on a "woods" area of the state, and around guns.
    Have never needed a gun in the woods.
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  33. #33
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    Ahhsome thread.

    1. What the people told you about needing a gun for the woods is incorrect; ignore it.
    2. If you're concerned about people/animals in the woods, carry bear spray instead. By weight and aim, it will be a lot more effective than any pistol. I bring my bear spray when I'm going into remote areas solo. And also a decent knife (but more for cutting off clothing or digits, if necessary - or maybe skinning a meal or meeting Mike Vandeman types)


    Cheers!


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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Touche! lol
    Not a personal dig at Timmy, he's awesome really! Just being cute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crtlnd View Post
    Not a personal dig at Timmy, he's awesome really! Just being cute.
    Yeah, but it's got a wee bit of merit and I'm guessing Tim would snicker too.

  36. #36
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    I would imagine the people that needed a gun out there that didn't have one... well they wouldn't really be able to post here now would they?
    "It looks flexy"

  37. #37
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    Go ahead...make my day

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    So we just moved up to the Eastside (of Seattle) from the San Francisco Bay Area. Several people in a row in one week (including some very large, strong movers guys) tell my wife that they always have a gun in the car in case of wildlife encounters (i.e. bears, cougars, etc.) and that it isn't safe to go into the woods without a gun.
    I think there's been a misinterpretation of what was meant. The quote above is advise to have a gun in the car....but then...indicate they think it isn't safe to go into the woods without a gun. I think people have misinterpreted that as the gun stays in the car at the trailhead.

    Never leave valuables in your car at the trailhead. It causes "learned behavior", meaning that the person who steals YOUR gun, wallet camera, house keys from YOUR car at the trailhead, has now learned that he WILL LIKELY be rewarded if he breaks into MY car. I don't even leave my registration in my car, if anyone breaks into my car at the trailhead, the last thing I want them to know is my address.

    I shouldn't weigh in on the original topic, because people will heatedly argue both sides with more passion than logic. But...I say, go ahead, carry your gun, more power to you if that's your choice. I don't carry a gun, I carry a knife and a whistle, just so everybody will remember me as the one who went down fighting . Bear spray seems like a good thing. Seems to me that people who criticize others perception on how they protect themselves, whether it be from attack (weapons) or injury (helmet, body armor) or recovery (first aid kit, etc) or being lost (gps, cell phone, satellite beacon) are the ones being paranoid. Why should it be anybody's business what goes into others packs? Don't criticize them, but advise them on effectiveness.


  38. #38
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    "Guns are for show, knives for a pro"

    Yeah I'd much rather have a knife on me than a .40cal in my bag that I have to take time to pull out and than aim. At least with the knife, it's just tooth and nail combat (to an extent) and your will to live against said hungry bears/cougars/rhinos/zombies/people we don't like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verslowrdr View Post
    The good news in most of the state is that there's active hunting pressure on these cats, so if they get overt they're likely to get creased some time in the fall if nothing else. I honestly believe over time this affects their behavior. We've also had some WSFW studies in this area where cats were treed with hounds, tranqed and dropped out of a tree, and collared/inventoried. This is a Really Bad Day for Big Kitty, and IMO reinforces their avoidance of humans. They can live, eat, and reproduce even on the edges of populated areas without folks knowing as long as they're sufficiently motivated to stay undercover.


    Actually this is untrue. About 15 years ago Washington banned hound hunting which is the only effective method of hunting cougar. Attacks on domestic animals and humans have gone up so much that the state is now using your tax dollars to pay for professional hound hunters to track down problem cats instead of recreational hunters paying to hunt them. They have become more brazen and less weary of humans. Either way your odds of getting attacked are reasonably low. As I think I outlined previously defending yourself from an animal attack is only one of the many uses for a firearm.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1de View Post
    Ahhsome thread.

    1. What the people told you about needing a gun for the woods is incorrect; ignore it.
    2. If you're concerned about people/animals in the woods, carry bear spray instead. By weight and aim, it will be a lot more effective than any pistol. I bring my bear spray when I'm going into remote areas solo. And also a decent knife (but more for cutting off clothing or digits, if necessary - or maybe skinning a meal or meeting Mike Vandeman types)


    Cheers!]
    I agree, bear spray is a great tool in the woods. Are you going to kill your meal with bear spray?

  41. #41
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    Oh yeah that's what I'm looking for when I ride in the woods, my meal!!
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    You're more likely to get killed in your car on the way to the trail than by large furry things with teeth and claws. If you want to carry a gun just make sure you have the training to use it properly. AND DON'T LEAVE IT IN YOUR CAR WHERE IT CAN GET STOLEN!
    There's a big difference between ripping and skidding. Those who skid don't know how to ride.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslowrdr View Post
    The good news in most of the state is that there's active hunting pressure on these cats, so if they get overt they're likely to get creased some time in the fall if nothing else. I honestly believe over time this affects their behavior. We've also had some WSFW studies in this area where cats were treed with hounds, tranqed and dropped out of a tree, and collared/inventoried. This is a Really Bad Day for Big Kitty, and IMO reinforces their avoidance of humans. They can live, eat, and reproduce even on the edges of populated areas without folks knowing as long as they're sufficiently motivated to stay undercover.

    Most of the horrible injury/fatality attacks seem to be coming out of California, where hunting or harassing cougar is illegal. I have long speculated that this causes MORE problems for cats over the long haul as they can be completely brazen with humans without consequence.

    We've had a cat in our 'hood off an on over the last few years, but we're so overrun with mule deer that they aren't even bothering with people, livestock, or pets. The whole arrangement works fine, and I don't see a reason to change it unless it actually poses a problem.
    I agree. I have scared up plenty of bears and have seen cougars but they are usually observing me and then darting off shortly afterwards. If a cougar is truly stalking you and attacks I don't think you would have time to draw a gun. That being said I carry a M&P40C in the high country in spring but mostly for moose as a cow moose is the most aggressive animal I have come up on but so far (luckily) I have been able to back away.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRider View Post
    ...That being said I carry a M&P40C in the high country in spring but mostly for moose as a cow moose is the most aggressive animal I have come up on but so far (luckily) I have been able to back away.
    *shudders* I'll keep dealing with the cougars and black bears we have here, thanks! I would crap my pants tangling up with a moose, esp. a cow with calves... ironic that one of the most dangerous animals in north America is an herbivore. My sister lived in AK for years and had lots of 'interesting' stories, and mushers just dread dealing with them (they're crabby in winter to begin with, then they hang out/lie down on trails, and they have an extra hatred for dogs which means they'll sometimes try to mow through a whole team, cable ganglines and all).
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

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    Bring a chainsaw, that way if you get into a disagreement with an animal as to creating clear delineation on where you both stand on the food chain, the subsequent battle will be that much more epic.
    .~...|\
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    I spent two straight months in the back country of Yellowstone and saw plenty of wild animals. I was charged by a buffalo, encountered wolf packs, and confronted several grizzlies. The buffalo were like cattle.



    It would take a well aimed shot to stop this beast. But pepper spray would stop it in its tracks.

    I know more than one person who has stopped a charging grizzly with pepper spray.

    Pepper spray is all that is needed for animals. People on the other hand...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by boostin View Post
    MMM screw the pepper spray, bring me some pepper and potatoes, bison burgers are back on the menu boys!
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  48. #48
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    Don't forget the blue cheese on that! First thing I thought when I saw that, yummy!
    More fun than an open casket funeral

  49. #49
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    Just read an interesting article about the effectiveness of bear spray. While it works quite well for brown bears (96% of the time) it can be considerably less so used against black bears. Especially black bears that have become habituated to humans AND forage from garbage cans. So stop throwing out your leftover Mex and Thai food. Black bears have been observed licking and rolling on patches of ground that have been sprayed with pepper spray.

    I have heard that AXE repels most living things...

    I'll carry a sidearm if I'm going somewhere I know there's a lot of coyote activity, for my dog's protection. There have been several cases here of dogs being mobbed by 'yotes while on walks with their owners. As far as freaks and weirdos, though, most of the ones I've seen in the woods were on bikes and were too out of breath to be a threat.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslowrdr View Post
    *shudders* I'll keep dealing with the cougars and black bears we have here, thanks! I would crap my pants tangling up with a moose, esp. a cow with calves... ironic that one of the most dangerous animals in north America is an herbivore. My sister lived in AK for years and had lots of 'interesting' stories, and mushers just dread dealing with them (they're crabby in winter to begin with, then they hang out/lie down on trails, and they have an extra hatred for dogs which means they'll sometimes try to mow through a whole team, cable ganglines and all).
    Moose tramples Spokane neighborhood | KREM.com Spokane


    There is a cow moose with a calf on the High Drive trails right now. But its so mild this year there is plenty of food for them. Only heard of one trail runner have to haul ass when it put her head down at him

  51. #51
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    After watching this thread from the beginning, I feel compelled to comment. I have been recreating in the woods my whole life. On occasional extremely isolated rides, I have carried my semi-auto H&K subcompact 9 mm. in my pack. This will probably come as a suprise to my riding partners, I've never mentioned a word or displayed it to any of them. I'm retired law enforcement (over 35 years) and the creature I fear more than any bear or cougar is man. As mentioned above, its just a simple tool, not suitable for all situations.

  52. #52
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    Some people just wished they had a real gun in the pack...

    I swear, it's all downhill from here!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Need for a gun in the woods?-miller-leader-down.jpg  


  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    I swear, it's all downhill from here!
    I swear, it's all downhill from here (after we reach the third peak on the left).

    To the OP if you wanted you could do a statistical comparison with riders in B.C. just North of you. CCW is not the norm up here in the woods or elsewhere (to dispel any myth though you can carry a firearm up here in case of bears etc. it's not a 100% ban).

    Just count up the number of riders up here eaten by bears, Cougars, or just plain disappeared.

    Myself I've seen bears very close; arm's reach close, I've know people that hit bears while riding but I've never heard of a bear going for a rider.

    Cougars are a bit trickier, I've never seen one but they are supposed to be around. I've know riders who were stalked but no attacks myself. There was one on the Island that turned out to be a murder instead, but there was also a tug captain on the North Island who got jumped at night on his bike. He was Seattle resident. Maybe he's a mover now.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.C. View Post
    its just a simple tool, not suitable for all situations.
    i like how people call me delusional.

    A gun is a simple tool, probably only a little bit more complex than my air pump. But an air pump can't blow chunks of brain and bone out the backside of your skull, no matter how hard ya pump.

    Don't get me wrong, i really don't care if you're packing heat on a ride, but i just get a kick at the minimizing. i wish i could carry a miniature nuclear warhead, and use that line, "it's just a tool".

    *************************************
    As far as the OP question, i think a fair amount of riders will tell you it's a personal choice, but nobody would say it's anywhere remotely near necessary.

    The paranoia of critters around here, even the moose is super slim. But i do agree that the Moose is probably going to be the one animal you want to provide the most space to. Bullwinkle don't give a fvkk.

    The paranoia of people is legitimate.

    But c'mon i mean, i've seen the movie Deliverance, and i've seen a few strange folk, and i won't discount the .001% chance you might need to bust a cap in someone's freaky ass in the sticks. But still... It reminds me of when i rode by this guy who was carrying a broad sword up on Noble Nob Trail, his justification was "he smelled bear".

    There are alot of resources you can study up on edible plants in the woods, resources on what to do if you encounter an animal, and there are more things you should be carrying in your pack to be prepared for an outdoor backcountry ride. First aid kit, chain breaker, led light, map, compass, tire pump, multi-tool kit, extra food, space blanket, common sense, so on so forth... If you're gonna kick the bucket in the woods, it's likely going to be due to injury, and exposure.

    Be prepared for the real dangers, guns and ammo are heavy, my suggestion would be to shed that weight and pack a camera or a sammich.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    ... If you're gonna kick the bucket in the woods, it's likely going to be due to injury, and exposure...
    ^^^This. He speaks truth. There have been very few fatal cougar attacks over the last 100 years, and apparently black bear fatalities are even more rare. While I can't find any hard figures, we all hear about hypothermia deaths in the NW pretty frequently.

    I've had people pick up my camelbak and exclaim "are you spending the night out there?!?" because of the weight. My answer is usually that while I'm not planning on it, I could... it would be a REALLY suxor night either trudging on with a light or huddled up in a couple space blankets + extra clothing by a fire, but 100% survivable with what I've got with me.
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  56. #56
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    A gun is a tool. There's times when we need certain tools and there could be a time when we wish we had that tool.
    "Bound to cover just a little more ground"

  57. #57
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    I have come across 4-5 bears over the past few summers (even got to see one cat right after getting to my truck). I even have one bear within 30 yards down the trail of me before I noticed (my head was down and this was during a long climb), he took one look at me and scampered away. I was by far away more startled than the bear as he could care less.

    I do over 90% of my riding solo and in the summer months all of my rides are in the mtns. I have seen so much wildlife while on rides and I honestly think the scariest times that I have is during hunting season. I fear OTHER PEOPLE with guns.... I will take my chances with NW wildlife any-day.

  58. #58
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    So what about the "Tools" posting in this thread, should we bring them along too?
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttrd View Post
    I fear OTHER PEOPLE with guns.... I will take my chances with NW wildlife any-day.
    ^^this^^

    I have probably had scarier encounters with people than animals in the wilds, and I HAVE been within 30 feet of a bear. Drunk minutemen in the AZ desert vs a black bear? Bear, please. Nothing like that moment riding away from drunk armed bubbas who are sitting in an offroad golfcart while thinking to yourself, "...please don't f@&$ing shoot me... ...please don't f@&$ing shoot me... ...please don't f@&$ing shoot me..."
    insert witty comment here

  60. #60
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    Absolutely, yes you should carry because you never know when you may need it. I carry concealed inside the waste band so that I can quickly draw my weapon should I need to. As others have mentioned, having a gun in your bag would mean that you would not be able to draw it quickly enough for most situations, but that doesn't mean you still should not carry.

    I will not get into the debate over guns because it usually means debating with people who have never used or been properly trained to use guns. I live in Arizona and spend a lot of time biking and motorcycle riding in areas where drugs are frequently smuggled. I come across illegals at least a few times a year and choose to treat them as wild animals and keep my distance, but I like having the piece of mind that should I need to defend myself and my girlfriend I have an additional tool to do so.

    Whatever you decide, make sure to spend some time with an experienced shooter and learn how to handle your weapon in high stress situations. Just because you can hit a paper target at a controlled range does not mean you will be able to do so safely when stressed. Education and respect for your weapon are instrumental to being a responsible gun owner.

  61. #61
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    Whiskeythrottle is correct on the training issue. its hard to relate/describe unless you have had it. We received mandatory training every six months, and it wasn't just target practice. If you didn't pass every aspect, you were suspended until you did. I found the most useful training to be verbal commands and the shoot/don't shoot scenarios. In the latter, you are placed in a variety of mock situations involving many variables, (live ammo w/ chalk projectiles) and the decision to shoot or not shoot is required. Getting hit with that hard chalk out of a 9 mm hurt like hell if it hit you somewhere other than your vest. Fortunately I never had to make the decision to shoot in the real world.

  62. #62
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    I respect the opinions and views of both sides of the topic.. But for me personally, one of the main reasons that I bike, hike, kite, kayak and do everything else in the outdoors is to unplug and get away from daily distractions & worries. Call me unprepared if you want, but I have grown up in the outdoors, work in the outdoors & recreate in the outdoors and have never had and need for a gun......

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeythrottle View Post
    Absolutely, yes you should carry because you never know when you may need it. I carry concealed inside the waste band so that I can quickly draw my weapon should I need to. As others have mentioned, having a gun in your bag would mean that you would not be able to draw it quickly enough for most situations, but that doesn't mean you still should not carry.

    I will not get into the debate over guns because it usually means debating with people who have never used or been properly trained to use guns. I live in Arizona and spend a lot of time biking and motorcycle riding in areas where drugs are frequently smuggled. I come across illegals at least a few times a year and choose to treat them as wild animals and keep my distance, but I like having the piece of mind that should I need to defend myself and my girlfriend I have an additional tool to do so.

    Whatever you decide, make sure to spend some time with an experienced shooter and learn how to handle your weapon in high stress situations. Just because you can hit a paper target at a controlled range does not mean you will be able to do so safely when stressed. Education and respect for your weapon are instrumental to being a responsible gun owner.
    Wow, we've gone from "do you NEED to carry a gun in the PNW" to "you should carry because you might run into illegal immigrants"?

    I'll take my chances with the Canadians without a gun, thank you very much.

    There's a very very simple answer to this question: NO, you don't NEED to carry in the woods up here. YOU might WANT to, YOU might FEEL safer because of it, but you don't NEED to. Tens of thousands of people recreate in the mountains of Washington every year, and they aren't getting mauled by bears and cougars. The fact that we hear about the rare animal attack on the news is due just to that: it's not an ordinary occurrence.

  64. #64
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    Oh, and as far as a gun being a survival tool? Give me a break. There's nowhere in Washington that you're going to starve to death before someone finds you. You're far more likely to die of exposure or injury, neither one of which a gun will help with, unless you're going to go all Han Solo on a bear and sleep inside it. Give me some rope and a tarp over a gun, any day of the week.

    Note: I'm not against guns (I grew up shooting and there's several in my house right now), I'm just of the opinion that people that think it's too dangerous to step into the woods without a gun are more dangerous to themselves with their ignorance than anything they'd need a gun for.
    Last edited by Agate; 01-14-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  65. #65
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    Better ways to protect yourself against bears and cougs

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8dspAa9NQ-c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VshBT5Ua4uo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agate View Post
    Wow, we've gone from "do you NEED to carry a gun in the PNW" to "you should carry because you might run into illegal immigrants"?

    I'll take my chances with the Canadians without a gun, thank you very much.

    There's a very very simple answer to this question: NO, you don't NEED to carry in the woods up here. YOU might WANT to, YOU might FEEL safer because of it, but you don't NEED to. Tens of thousands of people recreate in the mountains of Washington every year, and they aren't getting mauled by bears and cougars. The fact that we hear about the rare animal attack on the news is due just to that: it's not an ordinary occurrence.
    I think you might of misunderstood why I mentioned illegals. The OP said one of the reasons was tweakers (or similar) which is why i explained my experience with illegals and the need for protection. I don't think I made any reference to illegals being in the PNW.

    Attacks are a rare occurrence, I think we can all agree on that, but does that mean you wouldn't want to be prepared in case something so rare does occur? I also believe people (tweakers, drug runners, insert type here) to more dangerous than the majority of the animals out there.

    Of coarse these are my opinions and I'm sure most who enjoy a sport like this would disagree. I know I won't change anyone's mind just as you won't change mine.

    I know better than to get into these discussions!

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    Question for gun packing mountain bikers, how many times have you seriously needed a gun in the woods?

    I never have, well one time when Bob wouldn't shut up, but that's a different case.
    One time?
    Last edited by ACree; 01-14-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    *sigh* I'll retract the mo-ron name calling if anyone else thinks it's just fine to go through all the trouble just to leave the firearm in the car at the TH for some crackhead to break in and get... (That alone is where the reference applies.)

    Like many here, I carry way more tools than I think I'll ever need in my pack, just in case. But, a pistola has never been on that list. Don't see any reason.

    Might need one for the Stink Spoke ride on Saturday though. The poker card stop lines are terrible.
    I'll agree with you there. I'm a big 2nd amendment fan, but can't think of much dumber then leaving a gun in your car at a trailhead. But I don't think that was the original question.

    I don't carry while riding, but have considered it. I keep meaning to pick something up that's the right size/weight to conveniently pack in the woods. The Taurus judge looks good. I have way more concern over two legged lowlifes then animals.
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  69. #69
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    i'm just waiting for when the conversation will shift over to Tim Tebow.

    Hmm no?

    How about Iranians...

    Anyone?
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Cougar and bear vids...
    Yeah, you most certainly don't want to pull your gun when attacked by a cougar.

    An aggressive pack of cougars was encountered Wed in Fall City. Me and Barry barely escaped. Fortunately they found some other prey and we snuck away.

  71. #71
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    I carry sometimes, safety on, snap cap (dummy round) in the chamber. If I'm doing a late night ride alone, it's a must. I know I'll never need it for an animal. I hope I'll never need it for a person... but it's my decision.

    However considering how much I ride I would bet I carry less than 2% of the time...too much weight for no added benefit. Although when it's 11pm & you're alone 6 miles from a paved road I'm happy to carry. I have my concealed license.

    I can understand how people would be appalled with carrying a gun riding...but when you are familiar with firearms you understand, if you aren't & feel threatened by the idea, well thats ok as well.

    I don't have to get permission to carry a gun in my camelback...no one will ever know or care.

    I would NEVER leave my gun in my car though... if it gets out of the house, its getting carried.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    MMM screw the pepper spray, bring me some pepper and potatoes, bison burgers are back on the menu boys!
    nuff said

  73. #73
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    Who knew this would happen...

    ...in a post involving guns. Shocking.

    Look, like many I've been riding for years. I have a Glock 17 and I don't bring it with me. Why? I don't need to. The question was, do I need a gun? No, you don't need one. But, if you want one, by all means bring it if you know how to safely handle a gun.

    If I ever felt the need to bring my gun on a ride I'd probably pass on the ride. That's never happenned and I've been riding since 1983. Maybe it is true elsewhere, maybe it will be true here in the future, but I'd argue it's not true for most people in most of the PNW.

    All of that said some people just need to have a gun on them to feel safe. Nothing wrong with that IMHO. We don't all have to agree with the whys and whatfors. They are what they are.
    I'll be along... eventually.

  74. #74
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    After reading all of this thread.

    I have been completely convinced to do what I was going to do anyway.

    That makes me feel better.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyxaos View Post
    After reading all of this thread.

    I have been completely convinced to do what I was going to do anyway.

    That makes me feel better.
    Glad we could help with that.
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  76. #76
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    Sure a gun is a tool, and there are situation where you might need one. But there are many other tools that have a much great likelihood of being used, and greater likelihood of saving your life.

    If you are a logical person, and not a paranoid one. You will preferentially pick these tools over the gun, since they are logically more likely to save your life.

    Many of these tools can also save another persons life that you meet up on the trail. If you do happen upon someone who has been mauled by a bear or cougar, or fallen off of a ledge, is drowning, having a heart attack, etc...your gun will do nothing to help that person.

    So, until you carry all the much more effective survival gear, using the "gun is a tool" argument has no merit. You are carrying it because you are paranoid and fearful about the unknown. That is ok, as I understand that paranoia, and personally have had several biking encounters where having a gun would have made me feel safer.

    This reminds me of another 'survival thread'. I posted what I carry on long trips (i.e 1 week or greater, "bike packing" trips). The essentials are: epipen, angiocath, scalpel or very sharp thin tipped knife, suture and needle (I carried a full suture kit with clamps etc, as I have surgical training), a fire source, and a warmth source...and bear spray.

    Food and water are givens. I also have casting supplies, which are lightweight, and easy to use, but bulky, so I don't carry them. You can always use clothing/tubes and your knife to make a decent splint.

    Were I going on a big trip in this technological era. Emergency beacons/GPS etc will save your ass more than anything else. (esp in winter)

    So, once you carry all those things, and you have your bases covered. If you still need more safety, then you can logically carry a gun. But I doubt you do, and therefore, you are probably carrying it because it makes you feel safer. That does have merit, but if you truly wanted to BE safer, you would carry the other gear in lieu of the firearm. As someone once said, it is fear which most significantly drives us.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought View Post
    Sure a gun is a tool, and there are situation where you might need one. But there are many other tools that have a much great likelihood of being used, and greater likelihood of saving your life.

    If you are a logical person, and not a paranoid one. You will preferentially pick these tools over the gun, since they are logically more likely to save your life.

    Many of these tools can also save another persons life that you meet up on the trail. If you do happen upon someone who has been mauled by a bear or cougar, or fallen off of a ledge, is drowning, having a heart attack, etc...your gun will do nothing to help that person.

    So, until you carry all the much more effective survival gear, using the "gun is a tool" argument has no merit. You are carrying it because you are paranoid and fearful about the unknown. That is ok, as I understand that paranoia, and personally have had several biking encounters where having a gun would have made me feel safer.

    This reminds me of another 'survival thread'. I posted what I carry on long trips (i.e 1 week or greater, "bike packing" trips). The essentials are: epipen, angiocath, scalpel or very sharp thin tipped knife, suture and needle (I carried a full suture kit with clamps etc, as I have surgical training), a fire source, and a warmth source...and bear spray.

    Food and water are givens. I also have casting supplies, which are lightweight, and easy to use, but bulky, so I don't carry them. You can always use clothing/tubes and your knife to make a decent splint.

    Were I going on a big trip in this technological era. Emergency beacons/GPS etc will save your ass more than anything else. (esp in winter)

    So, once you carry all those things, and you have your bases covered. If you still need more safety, then you can logically carry a gun. But I doubt you do, and therefore, you are probably carrying it because it makes you feel safer. That does have merit, but if you truly wanted to BE safer, you would carry the other gear in lieu of the firearm. As someone once said, it is fear which most significantly drives us.
    True, I agree with all that you've said. I don't carry a gun or own a gun, but many of my friends that own guns say... "there could be a time when you wish you had that gun" I would always laugh when my buddy would bring one on our rides, but then again there could be a time when I wish I had a firearm.
    "Bound to cover just a little more ground"

  78. #78
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    Geez, are we still talking about this? There are lots of things that I'd like to add to my already overflowing pack "just in case". But a ****ty hooker, a gallon of Jim Beam, and my .308 just won't fit.

    It would be funny to have a fellow rider packing heat and forgetting a pump and a patch kit though.....

  79. #79
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    "It would be funny to have a fellow rider packing heat and forgetting a pump and a patch kit though..... "

    And you wouldn't give him yours if he asked?


    OK, the trail surgeon post is creeping me out, a bit too Vandeman-like. Someone give me a gun so I can shoot this thread.

  80. #80
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    This is the last reply to this thread.


    DO NOT POST REPLIES PAST THIS POINT.


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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    It would be funny to have a fellow rider packing heat and forgetting a pump and a patch kit though.....
    Why when you can set out and blast a half dozen varmints and stuff them into your tire.

    Quote Originally Posted by warmonkey View Post
    OK, the trail surgeon post is creeping me out, a bit too Vandeman-like. Someone give me a gun so I can shoot this thread.
    i wouldn't go that far to call it Vandeman like dude. That guy's a worthless piece of trash.

    When i broke my leg on a ride, after coming out of shock where people were trying to figure out what to do, i was able to tell them to open my pack. i had a knife, and i had gauze and tape. i instructed them how to dress a splint which helped stabilize my leg so i could ride off the mountain.

    i wouldn't involve needles myself, if you have a huge gash, carry some alcohol wipes, tampon, and super glue. You won't need to even go to the clinic if you do it right...


    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    This is the last reply to this thread.


    DO NOT POST REPLIES PAST THIS POINT.


    Violators will be shot!
    No we haven't got glue yet. You don't stop bashing the fvkker til you got glue...
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  82. #82
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    If you are a logical person, and not a paranoid one. You will preferentially pick these tools over the gun, since they are logically more likely to save your life.

    So, until you carry all the much more effective survival gear, using the "gun is a tool" argument has no merit. You are carrying it because you are paranoid and fearful about the unknown.

    Logical fallacy presented as critical thought strikes me as very "Vandeman-ish". Bringing surgical tools on a bike ride is every bit as fear-driven as bringing a firearm.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by warmonkey View Post
    If you are a logical person, and not a paranoid one. You will preferentially pick these tools over the gun, since they are logically more likely to save your life.

    So, until you carry all the much more effective survival gear, using the "gun is a tool" argument has no merit. You are carrying it because you are paranoid and fearful about the unknown.

    Logical fallacy presented as critical thought strikes me as very "Vandeman-ish". Bringing surgical tools on a bike ride is every bit as fear-driven as bringing a firearm.
    Yah but maybe you don't realize how far deep the rabbit hole goes.
    Somehow i doubt rddhfreethought is gonna call King County about pictures you share of trail building on the webbe that helps create a huge fiasco. Or call your work and inform your boss that you're posting controversial topics on an internet forum. Or email you a hateful racist letter concerning volunteer work you did against nature when you helped build a trail underneath a freeway.
    That's just a speck...

    The very fact you typed that name in this thread, will guarantee a whole host of quotes that will be taken out of context and shared for whoever is dumb enough to buy what he's selling.
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  84. #84
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    Oh, mikey's rabbit hole is very deep indeed. Light will never reach the bottom.

    I in no way meant to infer that rd... will be out on the trails looking to saw people into small pieces. I'm sure he'll be out there enjoying them with the rest of us. In fact, I hope he's out there with his surgical kit the day I endo, land on my gun and shoot a hole in my butt.

    What I was referring to is van**man's penchant for sanctimoniously presenting his pseudo-science and opinion as fact.

    I am logical, ergo; you are paranoid.

    Really?

    (Crap! I forgot he-who-shall-not-be-named has his bots and minions prowling the web)

  85. #85
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    I am a hunter with a safe full of weapons. The only time i have a firearm with me on a bike is if i am hunting off of the bike.

    to those who say you can't get a gun out of a pack in time to kill something. You have never pulled a gun out of a pack and killed something. Let me tell you, that yes, you can. You can even put it together. Especially if you see them, before they see you.

    however, very rarely have i carried one for self protection. Only for hunting off of the bike.

    If you are not familiar with firearms. Get pepper spray. you can't kill yourself that way.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum View Post
    MMM screw the pepper spray, bring me some pepper and potatoes, bison burgers are back on the menu boys!
    is that all you think about Tim, FOOD. the best defence is just be faster than you buddy.
    The Jackster. you must earn your turns and ride to the top.

  87. #87
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    In some places it might make sense.

    This is our guide on a mtn bike ride in Kruger National Park (SA). When it came time for a rest however...dude couldnt untie the gun from the bike. That was comforting! I made sure to ride at the back.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/davemutton/6742642247/" title="Kruger National Park by davemutton, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6742642247_f4a5184c5a.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Kruger National Park"></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/davemutton/6742658581/" title="Kruger National Park by davemutton, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7022/6742658581_6f564bf48e.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Kruger National Park"></a>
    I support EMBA

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyxaos View Post
    After reading all of this thread.

    I have been completely convinced to do what I was going to do anyway.

    That makes me feel better.
    You guys are killing me!. I too am totally convinced to do what I was going to do anyways.s

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    Question for gun packing mountain bikers, how many times have you seriously needed a gun in the woods?

    I never have, well one time when Bob wouldn't shut up, but that's a different case.
    zero, but I've yet to need a seatbelt either. I *wear* both everyday I have no concern about the wildlife, however I'm not the leave it in the car type, so with me it goes.

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    It'll all sort itself out after a few rides

    Quote Originally Posted by thesacrifice View Post
    zero, but I've yet to need a seatbelt either. I *wear* both everyday I have no concern about the wildlife, however I'm not the leave it in the car type, so with me it goes.
    Great point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    You guys are killing me!. I too am totally convinced to do what I was going to do anyways.s
    80+ emails of entertaining opinions and perhaps 5 or so useful ones and back at square one?

    With that intro, mine is probably opinion as most others. Since the question is whether to bring one or not, the discussion assumes you already have a handgun. Otherwise, the discussion would have to involve size / weight / caliber / capacity / etc., as well as possibly legal issues such as CCW, or even how to use it effectively. Those kinds of questions would be more interesting to me, but is not the actual topic of original question.

    (love muttonchops story about tying a rifle to a bike).

    So, assuming you already own one, and know how to use it safely and legally, perhaps completed a course on it's safe use, I think it's fine to carry it...it'll all sort itself out whether you carry it all the time or not. Kinda like the first winter ride, I used to carry 2 extra dry shirts and a spare jacket, some of which just stays in the pack. After a few rides, I've figured out how to bring exactly the right amount of clothing, so the useless equipment gets ditched. On the other hand, I carry a night light in case I get lost or stay out longer than planned. The light just sits in my pack, makes me feel relatively safer, but rarely gets used for emergencies (although has been used for planned night rides, topic tangential to emergency equipment).

    After a few rides, you'll figure it out. Similar to above, the gun will either be ditched like the extra clothing example above, or kept in the pack for emergencies like the night light example above. Part of the learning process as to whether it belongs on the pack is the ride itself, might be suitable for some rides and not for others. Assuming you own one, are proficient with it's use to safely carry, e.g. know how not to shoot yourself or other mishaps, I wouild just....do as you already decided to do.

    After all that vagueness, my honest opinion is that a handgun is more useful to save your partner than yourself, due to time to pull it out of a pack. I wouldn't mind riding with you or anyone else who is packing heat, or medical supplies, or food, or any other form of preparedness. We're all responsible for ourselves, so is pointless / mean spirited to criticize people for what they have in their packs. I just carry a knife, but BP's suggestion to use bear spray is the direction I'm gonna consider. Either way, if ever there is a need for it, guaranteed there will be a thousand options to second guess whether it helped or not, easier to make those afterthoughts if you're still alive. Might make for a nice target if we get bored and want to go plinking

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim208 View Post
    to those who say you can't get a gun out of a pack in time to kill something. You have never pulled a gun out of a pack and killed something. Let me tell you, that yes, you can. You can even put it together. Especially if you see them, before they see you.
    possible, but unlikely.
    a motivated attacker with a knife can move 21 feet to attack you before a trained person can pull and fire from a holster. now a big cat can move significantly faster than a meth head with a knife, so it seems more likely, unless you do see it a hundred yards out, you're done if that is the animal's intent.

    i carry for work and off duty. i'll carry while backpacking or camping but have never had a reason to carry on a bike.

  92. #92
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    When I carry, which is rarely, my H&K fits securely in a zippered pouch on my backpack waist belt. Very easy to get to if required (which it never has). Last summer, while riding alone at Cap. Forest, Sherman Creek area (MP 8), I came upon an adult black bear with two smaller cubs or yearlings, 'frollicking' right on the trail. Maybe 60/70 feet right in front of me. I sensed no danger, they could of cared less that I was there. I watched them for 15-20 minutes playing and wrestling with each other before they wandered down the creek bed. Never even thought about pulling out the weapon. I was pissed though, I had forgot my camera.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan.Bhop View Post
    possible, but unlikely.
    a motivated attacker with a knife can move 21 feet to attack you before a trained person can pull and fire from a holster. now a big cat can move significantly faster than a meth head with a knife, so it seems more likely, unless you do see it a hundred yards out, you're done if that is the animal's intent.

    i carry for work and off duty. i'll carry while backpacking or camping but have never had a reason to carry on a bike.
    It doesn't even take a motivated individual in the 21ft study...any joe/Jane off the street....and that's against an officer with a non concealed holster knowing what's about to occur. Frank Borelli wrote a great paper on the subject and why even 21ft is too close.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    This is our guide on a mtn bike ride in Kruger National Park (SA). When it came time for a rest however...dude couldnt untie the gun from the bike. That was comforting! I made sure to ride at the back.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/davemutton/6742642247/" title="Kruger National Park by davemutton, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6742642247_f4a5184c5a.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Kruger National Park"></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/davemutton/6742658581/" title="Kruger National Park by davemutton, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7022/6742658581_6f564bf48e.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Kruger National Park"></a>
    I think he's supposed to shoulder the bike and use the front and rear tires as sites.

  95. #95
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    I understand the 21 feet thing. But i guess i ride my mountain bike inthe mountains not the city, so packing for protection against people doesn't make sense to me.

    however my neighbors dog was just killed by a wolf. What type of protection should be packed to protect your trail dog?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim208 View Post
    What type of protection should be packed to protect your trail dog?
    A second trail dog, which runs slower than your trail dog. If you've got a neighbor whose dog barks too much at night, that's a fine candidate.

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