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  1. #1
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    Flowtron...so sad...

    Damn, there is only one good drop there now, most of them removed, when did that happen?

  2. #2
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    Was waiting for a post like this. There's reasons.... I'm sure Juice or a few others who've been in the know will chime in. It's what happens when you build on someone else's property... And, you are getting first aid calls out there.

  3. #3
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    is the diving board gone too? I know several have been injured on the trail so it doesnt surprise me but it is sad.
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  4. #4
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    Yep. Yeah, they were fun and all. But, it's reality and should not be surprising to anyone. I'm surprised KingCo is so cool with Duthie since they seem to have to haul someone out of there just about every week or more often. Props to Westra, Glenn, and everyone else that keeps that going on the liability side. Maybe we should have followed that shooting the home intruder deal and hauled everyone hurt down to the SVT before calling the EMTs?

  5. #5
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    Does this mean the rest of the trails are going to get dumbed down too? I feel sorry for those that got hurt but it IS one of the easiest trails out there in terms of features like drops and jumps. Actually, I thought the diving board was the only thing I would even call a "stunt"...
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  6. #6
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    It's private property and the owners are in the timber business, not the recreation business. When ignorant clowns ride trails before checking them out, or ride beyond their abilities, they get hurt and broadcast the event. The property owner catches wind of the "extreme" nature of the trails and thankfully works with EMBA to mitigate the risks rather than shut the trails down.

    When folks come online and blather about "dangerous" trails and/or features at TKE or Duthie or wherever, it puts the trails at risk of "dumbing down" or shutdown. The issue here is user responsibility and accountability. Nobody forces any of us to ride. Riding bikes is not "safe." If you get hurt due to a mistake, lack of skill, or failure to check a trail out before riding it's your own fault. I for one am getting super tired of the online *****ing and moaning about injuries and trail features. If everything is built so everyone can ride it, shit's gonna get boring real fast.
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  7. #7
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    Totally agreed.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Flowtron...so sad...

    Serious, thank you

  9. #9
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    Good post Jubilee!

    Out near me there is a well marked drop that has warning signs all around it and it is an "optional" feature. I had a guy start yelling at me one day because he hit it blind and nearly crashed and basically was trying to blame the builders for his lack of skill or ability to read a bright yellow sign that says "caution - sudden drop". There is even a black diamond sign pointing toward the entrance and a blue square pointing toward the ride around.

    If you dont know the trail, dont get made about crashing on something you didnt checkout first.
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  10. #10
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    The trailbuilding guidelines published by Hancock specifically prohibit the building of jumps or similar structures. Maybe an argument could be made that a drop isn't similar to a jump, but when injuries result from something that was engineered to produce air under the bike, I doubt we'd win that argument. Maybe the thing to do is stick to the guidelines a little closer, and lower the risk that Hancock might decide they need to re-look at their decision to allow riding. If they are removing structures, you can bet that's not something they want to be spending their resources on. We could end up with a situation like is apparently happening in tokul west where I am reading several of the trails are now closed. Just my opinion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakybro View Post
    The trailbuilding guidelines published by Hancock specifically prohibit the building of jumps or similar structures. Maybe an argument could be made that a drop isn't similar to a jump, but when injuries result from something that was engineered to produce air under the bike, I doubt we'd win that argument. Maybe the thing to do is stick to the guidelines a little closer, and lower the risk that Hancock might decide they need to re-look at their decision to allow riding. If they are removing structures, you can bet that's not something they want to be spending their resources on. We could end up with a situation like is apparently happening in tokul west where I am reading several of the trails are now closed. Just my opinion.
    You make some valid and truthful points. But the fact is the trailbuilders were asked to removed the logs because of injuries and complaints therein generated from within the riding community. This potential nit-picking of what is and isn't a "jump" has potential to get messy. How about pump rollers and berms? How about a natural rise and fall of terrain that can be "jumped" with enough speed?

    Regardless of the rules set forth by the property owners, self-policing and problem resolution is always best. If anyone has a problem/complaint with regards to a trail and/or specific feature(s), it should be directed towards our stewards (EMBA) and NOT aired here or publicly otherwise. It's what is best for the future of the trails out there.
    Taking it easy for all you sinners.

  12. #12
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    Agree.

  13. #13
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    Beginning of the end for Tokul. This is how it all starts.
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  14. #14
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    The features were voluntarily removed at Hancocks request (not by me).

    Nobody expected the diving board to last, but the log drop being an issue was surprising. Not an advanced feature by any stretch. Or even a "structure" IMO, as any wood was buried.

    But putting ourselves in Hancocks shoes;
    -multiple web postings documenting injuries on said features (creates liability exposure)
    -multiple emergency response calls. Not judging here but personally I've walked/ridden out of every injury I've ever had. Calling for help is expensive and creates immediate liability exposure.
    -just like the warranty on our bikes, fine print and policy can be separate from how a business chooses to exercise their rights. In this case I believe we basically forced Hancock to implement their policy, as we've created liability exposure by injuring ourselves and documenting the injuries & circumstances for all to see.

    So it goes!

  15. #15
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    I can't remember reading (I could be wrong) a complaint per se about a particular jump or similar structure on flowtron or elsewhere at TKE/TKW, but there has certainly been a good deal of discussion about such trail features in treads related to the TK area, and mention about injuries that have occurred. I don't see those discussions coming to an end, and there is little that can be done if the property owners are deciding to remove trail features based on general discussions found on MTBR and elsewhere.

    Nonetheless, if Hancock has specifically forbidden the implementation of jumps and the like, it seems like it was inevitable that those trail features would be discovered and ultimately removed, regardless of injuries. I agree that one can debate exactly what is a jump, but application of some commonsense probably will get you to the answer.

    This might be a warning shoot by Hancock; they want trails that conform to their rules. Lack of compliance may mean we don't get to ride on their land anymore. Totally sucks to see challenging trail features removed, for whatever reason, but I for one prefer at least access over the closure of a great area because the land owner gets frustrated.

  16. #16
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    Freaky, the lower West trails are not on Hancock land and were purchased from Weyerhauser by Tokul Timber LLC, another McCaw front as noted in other threads here. Hancock has been pretty darn good as of late about logging away from trails like Beaver Pond trail for example and has been working with EMBA to ensure future access and even more trails to enjoy. There is still easily 2+ hours of trail riding over there. Will the standard be below the gnarl factor for some? Probably. But, as it even shocks me, I'm looking at it glass half full nowadays...

  17. #17
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    A buddy of mine was up there Tuesday and he said the trail is still super fun. We general take a run down it as a warm up, so I guess it's ok since we are still half a sleep at that time anyway.
    13 SJ Evo, 14 Aurum, 14 Fatboy, 15 P.3

  18. #18
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    Hey folks, Evergreen has an understanding with Hancock that when they have trail concerns they'll contact me and I can help them deal with the situation. Recently Hancock contacted me about concerns about features.

    I told Hancock the active trail builders out there would deal with it so they don't have to. We removed or modified three features on Flowtron that have already been mentioned. This avoided the possible temporary closure of the trails while they assess the situation and take the necessary action. It also builds trust with the land owner, which is critical to getting a bigger and better trail system on their land.

    Hancock has been very good to work with, and allows steep and challenging trails. What they don't allow is what they define as structures or jumps - they've never allowed these. They do allow berms and fun natural trails. In the past the trail system out there was what could best be described as an ad-hoc system. It is now a managed system, which bring greater opportunity, but also greater oversight.

    Yes, we'll need to build trail within their guidelines. We can do that, and we can build trails that are a rippin' good time to ride.

    Thanks,
    Justin

    P.S. Have any concerns or questions about riding or building on Hancock land? I encourage you to call me or email me directly. 206-390-2237. justin@vanderpol.org.

  19. #19
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    Well, for me as an old guy with limited skills but boundless enthusiasm for getting out there and riding what is available that I can handle (and that includes all of T west), I want to encourage our community to continue to maintain and continue to build upon a strong positive relationship with Hancock. There is almost no better testimony to use in future discussions with private landowners and public land managers related to access than a strong and successful relationship with other private land owners and land managers - Hancock for example. I won't miss the drops that were removed because I knew enough to stay away from them, but for you that enjoy that kind of thing, I can understand the loss. For me, the loss of the T west trails was a blow. I liked those trails and rode them almost every time I was out there.

  20. #20
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    Freaky, shoot Slop or me a PM as well if you want to be part of replacing those West trails lost... It may not happen tomorrow, but it is looking bright that it can happen soon...

  21. #21
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    Flowtron...so sad...

    Rode Flowtron today and was sad to see it dumbed down. FWIW, I would consider myself only an intermediate rider + I'm old (50), and I thought the Flowtron drops were pretty easy. If people were getting hurt on them, then honestly, they shouldn't have been riding that trail. We are solely responsible for our own injuries on a mountain bike when up there or anywhere else.

    However, all that said, I fully understand the rational and support the changes and a continued strengthening of the relationship with Hancock. Juice said it all perfectly.

    But I'm still sad, and hope this doesn't lead to other trails being simplified.

  22. #22
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    Flowtron...so sad...

    Perhaps Hancock would now support published trail level ratings and/or signage so people can self select and stay off Blue Square or Black Diamond level trails if not ready for them. Leaving it all on the QT just lets people get in over their head & get hurt.

    If there at least was a decent Tokul East map with trails rated, people would be able to make better choices. The understanding with Hancock could still be that the trails are temporary, and obviously subject to change at their direction given logging activities, etc. Temporary but durable trailhead signage can easily be moved and online maps remapped as needed.

    Just a thought.

  23. #23
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    I'll trade off a few drops for a happy landowner and the opportunity to build more trail. Mad props to Justin and the Tokul build crew for the work out there.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    I'll trade off a few drops for a happy landowner and the opportunity to build more trail. Mad props to Justin and the Tokul build crew for the work out there.
    Agreed! We are so lucky to have Justin and Evergreen on point.

    Given time, the trees will be back and trails will improve. Nsteele, agree with your post, weird as it seems even that will take time. Maybe eventually Hancock will realize how profitable an advanced mtb skills center could be, with a stacked loop trail system catering to multiple skill levels with challenging features for all.

    In the meantime, ill get my off road recumbent tuned up!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Agreed! We are so lucky to have Justin and Evergreen on point.
    +3!
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  26. #26
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    I helped remove said features. Trust me, we sat there battling the "dumb down" demons on each feature. We all agreed that a few features taken out now is merely a blip on the the grand scheme out there. I battled this pretty hard at Duthie as well. Making a feature a tad easier or safer in order to lower the risk of injury is always the best way to go. Taking out emotions and being smart is a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

    Justin has our best interests in mind. We are all lucky to have him indeed.

  27. #27
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    Even though it's a bummer that the trails are being toned down, it is a hell of a lot better than losing them altogether. I haven't been out there in about 3 weeks so I haven't seen the changes yet, but I think I know which ones they are...

    I want to thank all the builders who have been working with Hancock and being proactive about handling any issues. You guys have been doing a great job, so keep it up! I will also be donating more time and money this year to help out because I finally have the means to. Win - win all around!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    I'll trade off a few drops for a happy landowner and the opportunity to build more trail. Mad props to Justin and the Tokul build crew for the work out there.
    I totally agree... IMO Tokul doesn't need 'stunts'. It is where you go to rip natural trails at full speed. When I want 'stunts' and groomed gap jumps I go spin around on the flats of Duthie. I rode Flowtron this morning and didn't feel like it was much different without the few curb height drops (and one taller plumb bob drop). The challenge for me has always been to rail the corners at full tilt... But what do I know?

    Thanks to everyone who is working to keep this place going...

  29. #29
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    Rode FT today and had a fine time. Also Bandwagon was a nice addition to the standard ride...needs more berms though Borneo. Upper Ivan pre Mid-town was a mud pit with a serious pond developing at the entrance. Mid-town was in great shape.

  30. #30
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    Meh, that would make it too easy... Sounds like Safety First and GR/Dodgeball will be getting some love this week too. Then, the massive 2.7 mile Golden Spike mud project...

  31. #31
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    We rode flowtron today and even though most the drops are gone, i think using the stumps and that as more natural features is just as cool. We all really enjoyed the trail. We also rode the newly opened Last Frontier. It is still a little raw, but it is on the way! Just needs some riders on it.

    I will post up some videos of the "updated" flowtron and one of last Frontier.
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  32. #32
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    Re: Flowtron...so sad...

    Oh good, I was going to ask about that new trail...

  33. #33
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    That "new" trail (LF) really is the "old" trail and pre-dates FT3K. By, maybe a year??? Can't remember exactly... But, great to have the crew re-open it.

  34. #34
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    Its been a while since I last rode LF, but I think a lot of it is routed differently.
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  35. #35
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    Here are the vids! I was a little slower than normal since I was on a borrowed bike ( mine was stolen last week) that was a size too small and it had 780 bars. I usually ride 730s so it was interesting. The frame is powdercoated high-lighter yellow, so I had to wear the matching shirt!

    Last Frontier (I believe)
    Last Frontier April 2013 - YouTube

    The updated Flowtron:

    flowtron april 2013 - YouTube
    13 SJ Evo, 14 Aurum, 14 Fatboy, 15 P.3

  36. #36
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    LF is the one that used to go off the rock and to the right of the FT3K trailhead log?
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  37. #37
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    Yep... (Actually was all by itself before Nutron was added to the "old" FT3K crossing Tetherball from the beer cap log...)

    Never hit that before Chris? That was a definite incorporation for Mutton and I when we had to emergency re-route after the Bog Log exit for both trails got cut out.

  38. #38
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    Looks like that was what a lot of people would link up to OGDH then? I thought I saw a couple smaller trails that looked like they used to connect those two trails while clmbing to FT3k.
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  39. #39
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    May be thinking of the old horse trail to the right of the rock that went through the creek and out to the climbing road. Not much interest in re-opening that for some reason. One can still sort of see it from the rock.

  40. #40
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    It's weird without the trees and harder to figure out where old/vs new stuff is. I always though LF linked into the another trail we like to ride. If only there was a good map....
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  41. #41
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    It did. FT3K at the bottom at the Bog Log. It did split left just under the rock ast the top off the old horse trail right to the road and Tetherball that went over to Safety First....

  42. #42
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    Always liked riding Teatherball (the one that paralleled the top road) to/from Safety first and FT3K just to reduce the road miles. The connection from upper FT3K to SF would make more sense at this point if at all.

    What would really be cool is a connector from Golden Spike to the top of FT3K. I'm good at posting trail wish list items...bad at finding time to pick up a shovel.

  43. #43
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    Hehehe. Navigator, that area hasd been walked several times and the original plan. But, really flat with Ephemerals all over the place. (How's that for a PVCA reference?) One may even find some old proposal ribbons in there...
    Note the same issues in places along GS where it's pretty flat already...

  44. #44
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    Easy fix...1000 foot ladder bridge! Looking forward to it. Not to skinny.

  45. #45
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    I dont think West should touch East. Thats how cooties are spread. I think it's the guys coming over from west that got Flowtron dumbed down!

    All kidding aside, it would be a cool extension. Flat doesnt always mean boring!
    13 SJ Evo, 14 Aurum, 14 Fatboy, 15 P.3

  46. #46
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    Re: Flowtron...so sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    I dont think West should touch East. Thats how cooties are spread. I think it's the guys coming over from west that got Flowtron dumbed down!

    All kidding aside, it would be a cool extension. Flat doesnt always mean boring!
    I've never heard anyone say that an A cup is just as much fun as B or C cup, just sayin...

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by innovator8 View Post
    I've never heard anyone say that an A cup is just as much fun as B or C cup, just sayin...
    Depends on the ass it's attached to.
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  48. #48
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    Flowtron...so sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    I dont think West should touch East. Thats how cooties are spread.
    Yeah, cross-pollination leads to species mutation. Before you know it there'll be all these creatures running around who can drop you on the X/C like you're standing still, AND bomb the DH like Aaron Gwin. A new super race of... ENDURO MEN!!

    Lets nip this in the bud before it becomes a problem.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nsteele View Post
    Yeah, cross-pollination leads to species mutation. Before you know it there'll be all these creatures running around who can drop you on the X/C like you're standing still, AND bomb the DH like Aaron Gwin. A new super race of... ENDURO MEN!!

    Lets nip this in the bud before it becomes a problem.
    Yep. Behold!

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/10323561@N07/8695108116/" title="Untitled by emailsucks98, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8124/8695108116_77369f88fc_b.jpg" width="681" height="1024" alt="Untitled"></a>

  50. #50
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    ^^^
    Me and my goggles are KOM'ing the schizznitz outta Moss Lake next...

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