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  1. #26
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    Mmmmm motors are good. In the right place of course!

  2. #27
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    That's it for me.....selling the power saws and excavator. All cross cuts and shovels on trails from now on. Just joking.....

    If it has a motor; it is a motorized vehicle, period. There are too many factors out there reducing the quality of the ride experience, let's not dumb it down any further.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len.Francies View Post
    Which part of NOn-motorized is hard to understand?

    To be clear: No, No, No,No, No!

    Stay after class and write NO until the blackboard is full.
    but i cant teacher i got to go to work so i can buy that new elec mountain bike lol.

  4. #29
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    Re: electric bikes on wa trails?

    If you can sell it to future land managers I'll roll over in my future grave.

  5. #30
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    I am very interested in eBikes and the technology. I have lurked on the ES forums for years. I do RC, so know a bit out motors, lipos, and chargers. I have several big plans for my ebike, which will be based on a freeride/DH platform. However, it will NEVER be ridden on trail.

    Riding a motorized bike on bicycle trails is stupid. The only ads I have seen for the bike you mentioned are merely a thinly veiled proposal to 'stealth' poach trails you really want to ride on your moto, but might get caught if you did. If you want to do that, you need an eMoto, not an eBike.

    The main purpose I see for eBikes, are for commuting distances that are not easily done, or too dangerous on a road bike. (think 50-100 mile round trip, like my commute). An eBike, can be ridden at high speed (35mph) at the speed of traffic, through the city, and then on the PAVED bike lane, under human power. This is the only way to safelydo my commute, which takes about 90 minutes each way under pure human power, and passes through streets with Strava names like "4th Ave death sprint".

    If you want an electric bike that will be ridden off road, you really want an electric motorcycle. You want that power, you want that geo. Trust me, eMotos have a strong future.
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington State, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa

  6. #31
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    I've thought about an electric boosted road commuter too. The bus picks up my daughter just about an hour before I should be clocking in ~19 miles away, uphill, and often into hellacious wind. Not being Lance Armstrong that's the only way I figure I could pull it off.

    FWIW the only electric assist bike I've ever seen on trails belonged to a women who's husband had set it up on her regular ride because she had come down with MS but didn't want to give up mountain biking. She still pedaled what she could but climbing some stuff had gotten tough. So while *technically* I'm 100% opposed to e-bikes on trails... you'd have to be a whole lot more heartless than I to dish on them for it. I can only hope she and her husband are still riding everything they can together.
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  7. #32
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    I want one where the motor comes off the bike, and turns into a chainsaw, pruner, and weed whacker.
    Only for trail days, of course.
    Hmmm...this is actually a great idea!
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len.Francies View Post
    Which part of NOn-motorized is hard to understand?

    To be clear: No, No, No,No, No!

    Stay after class and write NO until the blackboard is full.
    Werd!
    It's a bad idea, no if's and's or but's.

  9. #34
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    I'm nearly certain I saw/heard an e-assist bike on Grand Ridge Sunday... I kept hearing a strange whirring sound and seeing a rather stout fellow gaining on me Very Quickly on the front climb, then stopping and chatting on his cell phone, then whirring up to me again.

  10. #35
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    the only electric assist bike I've ever seen on trails belonged to a women who's husband had set it up on her regular ride because she had come down with MS but didn't want to give up mountain biking.
    That's a person with a medical disability and different rules apply to them. You can take your motorized wheelchair (aka ATV) into the wilderness if you have a medical disability.

  11. #36
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    electric bikes on wa trails?-img_20130405_152911.jpg
    There is rather a large difference between an e-bike and an electric moped/scooter/motorcycle. Think golf cart vs Nissan Leaf. The Stealth Bomber, though referred to as an e-bike, does exceed the federal regulations to keep it defined as a bicycle despite it's 20mph limiter. I think those, or any other "high powered e-bikes," pose a threat on trails shared with walkers, hikers, dog walkers, horses, other mountain bikers, the trail itself, etc.

    Generally speaking, so long as the bike falls under the definition of bicycle under federal law, it's all good. However, local laws may not permit e-bikes period.

    As some of the above posts had stated, e-bikes that fall within the power restriction to still be called a "bicycle" by definition is not going to give you the same experience as a true motorized bike electric or not. 750W is roughly 1HP, and you're going to have to pedal to make it up any moderate incline almost as hard as any other rider who's juicing. Just no side effects.

    My bike, for example, does fall within the laws federally & in California keeping it a bicycle (It does comply with the sign above ). However, I must note that any skilled rider on an XC 29er is going to be able to burst up a hill faster than me. There isn't as much speed or effort advantages for the notice or average rider.

    Why do I have one? It's nice having a heavy downhill bike I don't have to kill myself pedaling/walking to the top of a hill over and over again (my personal ski lift... that still requires pedaling). I also like using it as a trainer without a battery. It weighs 60lbs w/o battery, and I can tackle most hills with it unplugged. It makes me feel like the wind when I switch over to any of my regular bikes.

  12. #37
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    Around 2002 or so I noticed that the new generation of downhill bikes looked like motorcycles without motors. So I'd have to say that of it looks like a motorcycle, contains a motor and climbs hills without pedaling - it's a motorcycle.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyungjae View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20130405_152911.jpg 
Views:	100 
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ID:	818502
    There is rather a large difference between an e-bike and an electric moped/scooter/motorcycle. Think golf cart vs Nissan Leaf. The Stealth Bomber, though referred to as an e-bike, does exceed the federal regulations to keep it defined as a bicycle despite it's 20mph limiter. I think those, or any other "high powered e-bikes," pose a threat on trails shared with walkers, hikers, dog walkers, horses, other mountain bikers, the trail itself, etc.

    Generally speaking, so long as the bike falls under the definition of bicycle under federal law, it's all good. However, local laws may not permit e-bikes period.

    As some of the above posts had stated, e-bikes that fall within the power restriction to still be called a "bicycle" by definition is not going to give you the same experience as a true motorized bike electric or not. 750W is roughly 1HP, and you're going to have to pedal to make it up any moderate incline almost as hard as any other rider who's juicing. Just no side effects.

    My bike, for example, does fall within the laws federally & in California keeping it a bicycle (It does comply with the sign above ). However, I must note that any skilled rider on an XC 29er is going to be able to burst up a hill faster than me. There isn't as much speed or effort advantages for the notice or average rider.

    Why do I have one? It's nice having a heavy downhill bike I don't have to kill myself pedaling/walking to the top of a hill over and over again (my personal ski lift... that still requires pedaling). I also like using it as a trainer without a battery. It weighs 60lbs w/o battery, and I can tackle most hills with it unplugged. It makes me feel like the wind when I switch over to any of my regular bikes.
    i going to have to look into that.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racnad View Post
    Around 2002 or so I noticed that the new generation of downhill bikes looked like motorcycles without motors. So I'd have to say that of it looks like a motorcycle, contains a motor and climbs hills without pedaling - it's a motorcycle.
    Well it's a good thing that you're not writing the laws.

    That rationale sorta reminds me of all this assault weapons ban stuff where what it looks like it can do rather than what it actually can do is more important.

    Don't get me wrong though, it would be a whole lot easier to ban e-bikes altogether than try to enforce which ones comply with the law.

    I think I can go up hills without pedaling with my rig using my granny gear. It'll likely be slower than walking though.

    In the end it really is about common courtesy to everyone else on the trail. Regardless if I'm riding my 100% human powered bike vs my Stink-E, I'm still going to stop for horses, wait for hikers/joggers, dog walkers, to get to the top of the hill before I go down.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyungjae View Post
    Well it's a good thing that you're not writing the laws.

    That rationale sorta reminds me of all this assault weapons ban stuff where what it looks like it can do rather than what it actually can do is more important.

    Don't get me wrong though, it would be a whole lot easier to ban e-bikes altogether than try to enforce which ones comply with the law.

    I think I can go up hills without pedaling with my rig using my granny gear. It'll likely be slower than walking though.

    In the end it really is about common courtesy to everyone else on the trail. Regardless if I'm riding my 100% human powered bike vs my Stink-E, I'm still going to stop for horses, wait for hikers/joggers, dog walkers, to get to the top of the hill before I go down.
    thank you i couldn't figure out what to equate that to.

  16. #41
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    +1

    It's more about the rider than the ride. I don't have a problem with sharing trails with MTBs that have a modest level of assist to help folks that may not be capable of doing it under 100% human power or are maybe just ebike geeks. I do have a problem with someone leaving a roostertail behind them as they climb a hill at 30 mph on their 5kwatt 250 lb emonster bike.

  17. #42
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    Gees haters. Just listen to yourselves.

    Seems the Bomber is taking flak. My Stealth Fighter is 69lbs.(stock is 75lbs) and I'm 150lbs... It will do 33mph on flat rode. On the trail, it will not go any faster than anybody else with all of those pesky trees and rocks
    E-bikes that are trail capable are not able to do burn-outs, or make rooster tales. They have NO more of a "trail impact" than any other mtb. They do enable a busy 40+ dad with badish knees a chance to enjoy the trials again.
    I pedal my a$s off still, but it's like having super PED strength.

    If you don't like the moto look of Stealth.,..
    Haibike Xduro AMT Pro 2014

  18. #43
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    Wow, that thing is sweet.

    Now that I have a few months of mtbing under my belt, I have found there is one place where a bit of e assist would be real nice, uphill tight stuff where crank position is important to dodge obstacles, but, you don't have enough speed to stop pedaling. Having just enough assist go get through these would be nice. Till then, I guess I need to work on my stutter step pedaling.

    I would bet that such a bike could be built that added little weight. Very little battery, maybe even just caps and a very light hub motor as the duty cycle (time on/time off) would be very short. It wouldn't need to be big to dissipate heat.

  19. #44
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    Kindof a weird first post, so first : hey folks, I just got into bicycling again after riding motos for about 15 years. Really digging it.

    I've also spent some time getting excited about e-bikes in various forms, and what kind of extra trail oppertunities they open up. One of the reasons I'm now peadling more than twisting the throttle is the oppertuniites for motorized recreation shrunk to the point they were too much of a hassle to get to. The conclusion I came to was : an ebike doesn't get you much in terms of riding areas over a regular moto.

    The RCW makes a pretty clear distinction between a Motorcycle, Bicycle, Motor-driven cycle, and electric assist bicycle (Chapter 46.04 RCW: DEFINITIONS). It also defines what and what is not a motor vehical (RCW 46.04.320: Motor vehicle.).

    It kinda looks like to me that anything that goes when you're not pedaling (self-propelled/has a throttle), is for sure a no-no, and anything making more that 1.5hp (~1k Watts) "at the crank" is also a no-go. E-assist bikes making 1.5hp or less? That's where the question is. That's inline with what's possible for a human to put out, if just for a few seconds....

    I've been passed by e-assist bikes on my commute before, and my thought was that they sure make the hills look easy, but that's about the only speed differential I noticed. On the flats and downhill, I could keep up no problem.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawker665 View Post
    Kindof a weird first post, so first : hey folks, I just got into bicycling again after riding motos for about 15 years. Really digging it.

    I've also spent some time getting excited about e-bikes in various forms, and what kind of extra trail oppertunities they open up. One of the reasons I'm now peadling more than twisting the throttle is the oppertuniites for motorized recreation shrunk to the point they were too much of a hassle to get to. The conclusion I came to was : an ebike doesn't get you much in terms of riding areas over a regular moto.

    The RCW makes a pretty clear distinction between a Motorcycle, Bicycle, Motor-driven cycle, and electric assist bicycle (Chapter 46.04 RCW: DEFINITIONS). It also defines what and what is not a motor vehical (RCW 46.04.320: Motor vehicle.).

    It kinda looks like to me that anything that goes when you're not pedaling (self-propelled/has a throttle), is for sure a no-no, and anything making more that 1.5hp (~1k Watts) "at the crank" is also a no-go. E-assist bikes making 1.5hp or less? That's where the question is. That's inline with what's possible for a human to put out, if just for a few seconds....

    I've been passed by e-assist bikes on my commute before, and my thought was that they sure make the hills look easy, but that's about the only speed differential I noticed. On the flats and downhill, I could keep up no problem.
    I've heard (read on the internet), that a lot of e-bikers use them because it gives them the ability to "flatten" hills. It's an interesting thought.

  21. #46
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    Just saw this in another thread-

    I am located in Switzerland, a mountainous paradise for MTBs, and I am seeing more and more people riding e-MTBs. My worry is that, over time, this will lead to trail-biking becoming a mass recreation, like downhill skiing, where thousands of unfit people compete acrimoniously for slope space. In the skiing dept. you can avoid the masses by going ski-touring which requires deep-snow skills and considerable endurance. But what will prevent the masses from filling up our mountains and spoiling a great sport, if any untrained couch potato can ascend effortlessly? I may be overdramatizing things, but think of how gondolas and mass downhill-skiing have changed the atmosphere of resorts and even the shape of mountains...

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by warmonkey View Post
    Just saw this in another thread-

    I am located in Switzerland, a mountainous paradise for MTBs, and I am seeing more and more people riding e-MTBs. My worry is that, over time, this will lead to trail-biking becoming a mass recreation, like downhill skiing, where thousands of unfit people compete acrimoniously for slope space. In the skiing dept. you can avoid the masses by going ski-touring which requires deep-snow skills and considerable endurance. But what will prevent the masses from filling up our mountains and spoiling a great sport, if any untrained couch potato can ascend effortlessly? I may be overdramatizing things, but think of how gondolas and mass downhill-skiing have changed the atmosphere of resorts and even the shape of mountains...
    I agree to a certain extent. It takes a lot more skill than being physically fit to maneuver technical terrain and, sometimes, simply ride down a hill.

    For example:
    electric bikes on wa trails?-1053496_10201121274941223_1451219624_o.jpg
    Having an e-bike doesn't automatically make you a talented rider. There are plenty of people who are in great shape that put out massive wattage with their leg muscles but suuuuuuuuuuuuck at riding.

    I can see relatively smooth trails, paths, and single tracks being populated more but not by much.

    My suggestion to those who are worried about e-bikes is to actually ride one on a trail and see how handicapped they really are.

    I foresee most people who assume they're not gonna have to pedal or maneuver the bike around underneath them buying a very expensive paper weight they ride maybe a few times before losing interest. You already see a ton of "like new" high end mountain bikes on craigslist from people who dive head first into the sport thinking it's going to be easier than running.

    Anyhow, just live and let live. Interpretation of the law is going to be up to the individuals enforcing them. If you run into a nice park ranger and aren't riding like a jerk, anyone riding an e-bike should be fine.

  23. #48
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    Hey guys,
    I don't like doors that open for me or sinks that turn on for me or soap dispenser that squirt my soap, or toilets that flush for me, of head lights that turn off for me, and why would I want a bike that pedals for me. If you're not pedaling you're not riding, and if you have a motorized cycle stay off the non motorized trails. Is there a place for them, sure, the technology is just going to get better. Laziness fuels ideas and inventions.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Moody View Post
    Hey guys,
    I don't like doors that open for me or sinks that turn on for me or soap dispenser that squirt my soap, or toilets that flush for me, of head lights that turn off for me, and why would I want a bike that pedals for me. If you're not pedaling you're not riding, and if you have a motorized cycle stay off the non motorized trails. Is there a place for them, sure, the technology is just going to get better. Laziness fuels ideas and inventions.
    Not all mountain e-bikes have throttles and allow you to ride without pedaling. Actually, the majority commercial e-bikes that are available are pedal assist only.

    As I've stated earlier. Legal e-bikes do require quite a bit of pedaling to actually travel at a decent speed. For the novice rider, they're still going to be slower than your average weekend warrior. Those with decent riding experience will feel like an incredible athlete or like they're juicing and can potentially ride faster than strictly pedal power.

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to designate a separate area for e-bikes that aren't traveling any faster than conventional bikes, don't cause any more trail damage, and don't make any sound or generate pollutants during operation.

    This thread was originally started with mention of the Stealth Bomber e-bike, which by federal definition is not an e-bike at all. A better example of what we're likely to see on our trails is this bike:

    The Haibike XDuroRX29 Electric Mountain Bike | Singletracks Mountain Bike Blog

    Giant and Trek also have jumped on the e-mountain-bike bandwagon in Europe:

    E-Bikes - Giant Fahrräder | Deutschland

    Powerfly+ - Trek Bicycle

    It's only a matter of time before they bring them over here.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyungjae View Post
    Not all mountain e-bikes have throttles and allow you to ride without pedaling. Actually, the majority commercial e-bikes that are available are pedal assist only.

    As I've stated earlier. Legal e-bikes do require quite a bit of pedaling to actually travel at a decent speed. For the novice rider, they're still going to be slower than your average weekend warrior. Those with decent riding experience will feel like an incredible athlete or like they're juicing and can potentially ride faster than strictly pedal power.

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to designate a separate area for e-bikes that aren't traveling any faster than conventional bikes, don't cause any more trail damage, and don't make any sound or generate pollutants during operation.

    This thread was originally started with mention of the Stealth Bomber e-bike, which by federal definition is not an e-bike at all. A better example of what we're likely to see on our trails is this bike:

    The Haibike XDuroRX29 Electric Mountain Bike | Singletracks Mountain Bike Blog

    Giant and Trek also have jumped on the e-mountain-bike bandwagon in Europe:

    E-Bikes - Giant Fahrräder | Deutschland

    Powerfly+ - Trek Bicycle

    It's only a matter of time before they bring them over here.
    Right on man. I have been researching these bikes myself and I don't understand all the animosity. Chalk it up to ignorance I suppose. I've been mt biking for 20+ years and I enjoy pedaling big epics, shuttling with friends and using the lifts at Whistler etc... As I get older I see pedal assist as a good option for getting out in the backcountry or as an alternative to shuttling. Sorry if you don't like it but the technology is only going to get more refined and I don't see it going away anytime soon. I look forward to seeing where it leads....

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