Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 51
  1. #1
    Squeaky Wheel
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,251

    The Dumber-Downers are at it again...

    I was out at Paradise today bucking out a few downed trees and as I was riding back down the Lloyd Trail I stopped to fix at least four spots where someone has tried to be "helpful" by creating easy ride-arounds for difficult sections. I doubt those helpful people are participating here but in the off chance they are reading this, can I ask you to please stop? Those spots are supposed to be hard. Learning how to ride them is part of the fun/challenge.

    For those that ride Paradise often I'd like to ask for your help. When you see a ride-around or trail braid being created can you spend a few minutes blocking it off? These things tend to be a test of wills and I am sure that there are more of us who enjoy the riding a more difficult trail than those that want to dumb the trail down. Thanks!

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    371
    Thank you Woodway!!!

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mfisher1971's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    438
    Thank you. I ride there often and noticed a few spots that had been sterilized a few weeks ago. The most notable was a ride-around the narrow route between a large rock and tree that you really have to shift yourself thru. Today that ride-around had been buried under brush. Bravo!

    My problem is I never know what is intentional/legit, and what is just plain pussification by those who think mountain biking should require nothing more than the most basic of bicycling skills.
    trust the tread

    '06 Cannondale Prophet 1000

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    Save Two Trees!

    OK, maybe the graphic is a little much...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jimba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    631
    WW, I was out there today, trails are in great shape. Lloyds detour could use a little brush back in a few places.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ser jameson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    201
    I'll never understand why people ride around a tech section, instead of getting off and walking it. No shame in walking, very shameful to skirt around a spot you find challenging, how do you expect to get better?

  7. #7
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,059
    I really hate ridearounds and braids. I agree with everything said here and I'll be sure to cover up any offending braids. I'm with you ser j. no shame in dismounting and walking over the tough stuff. Spending a few minutes to session a tough spot and improving is part of mountain biking in my book.

    Is Two Trees getting the unauthorized "treatment"? If so that would be too bad.

  8. #8
    OMG!
    Reputation: adjunkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    412
    I like multiple options. I can go the hard way and my wife can go around the easy way. We both get to have a fun ride, and I don't have to wait for her to get off her bike and walk. (which isn't helping her bike skills, whoever thought that)

    What's wrong with a go around? Are you guys so hardcore that they aesthetically displease you, or is it that they aren't properly built to withstand erosion?

    Jump lines at other parks have them, and I'd be willing to bet some of you macho guys (who seem to think pv is so core) would probably use them.

  9. #9
    Squeaky Wheel
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,251
    adjunkie there are multiple reasons that trail braids are undesirable and none of them have to do with being macho. First, when a trail is built the builders have a certain skill level and experience in mind. Trail braids modify that experience - they change the character of the trail and yes they change the aesthetics and some of us do care about aesthetics. Most land managers I have met care about aesthetics and if they do we should too. Second, we have an agreement with the land manager at Paradise to maintain the existing trail line. The trail I referred to in my OP (Lloyd trail) routes through a conservation area and the land manager is very sensitive to changes in the trail. "Back in the day" all the trails at Paradise were closed to Mountain Biking and much time and effort was expended to get the area re-opened. Therefore, we'd prefer to maintain our excellent relationship with the land manager by discouraging trail braids. Finally, trail braids are almost never built properly which means in the winter they get mucky, which begets even more trail braids and the problem worsens.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,664
    Here here.... Thanks Woodway.

    Just say no to trail braiding.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,074
    The conditions were great out there today. Thanks for all of the trail work. And leaving Two Trees alone.

  12. #12
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,278
    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie View Post
    What's wrong with a go around? Are you guys so hardcore that they aesthetically displease you, or is it that they aren't properly built to withstand erosion?
    Woodway summed it up nicely.
    There's a difference between planned ride-arounds (which are appropriate for gap jump lines and "stunts") and trail braiding. One problem with trail braiding is the trail eventually becomes 10' wide, then it's no longer singletrack at all. Not challenging or fun for anybody.

    It's all about "leave no trace". Being a beginner rider does not warrant license to trample the trilliums just so you can stay on your bike. Other mountain bikers don't like it, and certainly doesn't go over well with the "conservation area" enthusiasts.

    We all share a responsibility to protect the great western crested newt headwaters.

    Thank you

    Name:  triturus-cristatus1.jpg
Views: 698
Size:  48.9 KB

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    Woodway, please count me in for your next trail day. Your fighting the good fight. Thanks.

  14. #14
    I didn't do it
    Reputation: Mookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    9,059
    Agree with everything Woodway and FM said. Braids suck.

    And along the same lines people who take it upon themselves to make trail features easier really should just stop it. Bringing the trail down to the lowest skill level just doesn't make any sense. Get off your bike and walk, or better yet give the obstacle a couple trys, you'll probably surprise yourself at how much better you'll get with a little practice.

  15. #15
    Moist and Delicious
    Reputation: nasai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    555
    If there aren't yet, there NEEDS to be posted signs at various points, either at trailheads or on a GIANT sign at the various parking areas to leave trail features alone. "The park is managed and maintained by professionals, built for the community. If a trail has a dangerous element, please make a note of it and contact X." Something like that....
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    142
    The only possible feature at paradise that could use a secondary route is the s-curve log bridge on Lloyds.. Seen people with wide handlebars have all kinds of fun falling off that one...

  17. #17
    STFU, Donny.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie View Post
    I like multiple options. I can go the hard way and my wife can go around the easy way. We both get to have a fun ride, and I don't have to wait for her to get off her bike and walk. (which isn't helping her bike skills, whoever thought that)

    What's wrong with a go around? Are you guys so hardcore that they aesthetically displease you, or is it that they aren't properly built to withstand erosion?
    I'll ride virtually any line intended by the builder, but I, too, have no problem with some well-intended braids. First, it lets us skilled folks have a challenging ride with less-experienced friends and family. Second, the total braided sections N gives 2^N different lines for the same trail. I very rarely ride braided trails with the exact same line every time. It's free bonus trails! Third, it's a bitter, losing battle to fight if you want to have technical trails. It's human nature to solve challenges in creative ways. (Canines, too, probably, as I'm sure plenty of dogs contribute to go-arounds.)

    And note, trails like Iverson at Tiger work exactly the opposite way: the trail is often braided to achieve MORE challenge away from the center line. You can make that route into a real heck of a challenge because of this.

  18. #18
    I5Troll
    Reputation: mwestra2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,305
    Great messages here. No unauthorized trail mods...period! If you want a change or an addition, contact the builder or land manager. If you don't know who that is, send an email to staff@evergreenmtb.org -- we'll get you to the right person. Yes, there may be some benefits to some riders for a ride-around or other unauthorized trail mod. BUT... the odds are you have no idea why something was built the way it was and have no understanding of all of the disadvantages that an unauthorized mod may bring along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    These things tend to be a test of wills...
    Indeed! Keep with it. Don't know if you remember all of my regular posts about unauthorized mods at Duthie. It was constant ride-arounds bypassing gateway/filter features and changes to jumps. But it has gotten waaaaaay better. A big part of that is how engaged the community is in "policing" out there. "No unauthorized trail mods" signs don't hurt either.

  19. #19
    Squeaky Wheel
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,251
    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    The only possible feature at paradise that could use a secondary route is the s-curve log bridge on Lloyds.. Seen people with wide handlebars have all kinds of fun falling off that one...
    That bridge was built where it is precisely because we could not find a good re-route option for the trail in that area. Paradise old-timers will remember just how wet and mucky that section got every winter.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: specialev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    80
    I second or third the idea of posting some form of signage. In the short term it could be a good idea to leave a note near the sections that were dumbed down. I recall a couple summers back someone took it on themselves to build some easy routes at Tape Worm. Some laminated signs with names and numbers to call if you were really interested in building there went up and most of that activity stopped.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    That bridge was built where it is precisely because we could not find a good re-route option for the trail in that area. Paradise old-timers will remember just how wet and mucky that section got every winter.
    Don't think we are talking about the same spot. It's the short one that goes 90 degrees right than 90 degrees left. It's on a slope so I don't think there's any drainage issues there.

  22. #22
    Moist and Delicious
    Reputation: nasai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    555
    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Don't think we are talking about the same spot. It's the short one that goes 90 degrees right than 90 degrees left. It's on a slope so I don't think there's any drainage issues there.
    On the main Lloyd's trail? Or the bypass?
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by nasai View Post
    On the main Lloyd's trail? Or the bypass?
    Whatever the technical one way trail is. Maybe I'm confusing the name.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,074
    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Whatever the technical one way trail is. Maybe I'm confusing the name.
    I think the trail with the S-shaped bridge with the slant/tilt (that I walk around--it freaks me out) is Cedar Run, isn't it?

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by DRSpalding View Post
    I think the trail with the S-shaped bridge with the slant/tilt (that I walk around--it freaks me out) is Cedar Run, isn't it?
    Ah you are right. That's the one I'm talking about!

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    I'm not sure why you would ever build go-arounds on Cedar Run because the adjacent trail, Southern Traverse, is the go-around.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Ah you are right. That's the one I'm talking about!
    Last edited by wipp; 05-21-2013 at 07:51 PM.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,664
    Agreed, the trail is supposed to be difficult by design. (Cedar Run) Though that fall away right can wig me out when it's wet too. It is the toughest move on the trail for many. Do a lot of people walk it???

  28. #28
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,278
    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Ah you are right. That's the one I'm talking about!
    Ah, OK that one. That Cedar Run (aka Morning Wood) is clearly signed as advanced, and that feature was precisely engineered for 30" bars.
    No ride arounds please. Ride it or walk it. Thank you.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Ah, OK that one. That Cedar Run (aka Morning Wood) is clearly signed as advanced, and that feature was precisely engineered for 30" bars.
    No ride arounds please. Ride it or walk it. Thank you.
    All true... yet still get stuck behind people who can't make it. I was merely making a suggestion, it really doesn't matter to me if there's a ride around or not.

  30. #30
    FM
    FM is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: FM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    9,278
    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    All true... yet still get stuck behind people who can't make it. I was merely making a suggestion, it really doesn't matter to me if there's a ride around or not.
    Thanks for the suggestion.

    I for one, would be p*ssed if a new ride around popped up anywhere on that trail. As others have suggested in this thread, that trail was built & clearly signed as not appropriate for beginners.

    I certainly don't clear every feature every time, but that does not mean it should be dumbed down to my personal level of dumbness.

    we have Duthie for that!


    Attn internet users, please no ride-arounds!

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Jimba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    631
    Just take it with some speed, no I am not kidding, use the bank as it was designed. Everyone I see having a problem on that corner is due to going way too slow.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Tarekith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,159
    Quote Originally Posted by DRSpalding View Post
    I think the trail with the S-shaped bridge with the slant/tilt (that I walk around--it freaks me out) is Cedar Run, isn't it?
    Bent the crap out of a rotor on that last year, slick when wet. Now I just go faster, works fine.
    Tarekith.com

    '12 RM Slayer70, i9 Torch, Flow EX, XT Brakes, 5050 s3.

  33. #33
    Moist and Delicious
    Reputation: nasai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    555
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimba View Post
    Just take it with some speed, no I am not kidding, use the bank as it was designed. Everyone I see having a problem on that corner is due to going way too slow.
    Yes.... it's so much easier when you just roll it like it's nothing. When I slow down, I fall off every time. Then again, I fall off it when I'm going faster too.
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DECIM8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    195
    I really thought long and hard about posting in this thread. Also I definitely do not condone unauthorized trail building or altering. It needs to be left to the pros for many, many reasons. I did noticed the ride arounds (braiding) coming down Loyd's several weeks ago, two spots in particular. I took note of them and rode my standard (more challenging) line past them. I am capable of taking that line and though I don't always hit those spots cleanly I choose to take them and attempt to improve my skills.

    On the flip side of things I am trying to get my daughters into mountain biking. Last year I picked up a Stumpjumper for my 12 year old and this year I found a Hotrock 24" for my 8 year old. My 3 year old wants to ride but hasn't shed the training wheels just yet. When by myself or with a group of old farts like myself I thoroughly enjoy Two Trees and Cedar Run though I avoid these trails with my 12 year old and definitely my 8 year old as their skills aren't quite there yet. Also, my life would be forfeit if anything happened to them beyond scratches and bruises as I am miraculously still married and my wife is Italian. With my daughters we take the Mainline up to the Bike Park and take a few laps of each trail for skill building before heading to Southern Traverse then Loyd's. This is a natural loop and beyond taking the mainline back this the logical way back to the lot.

    And here is the part that made me question posting. My 8 year old, on her second trail ride ever mind you, tried to make the second spot where a ride around was blocked without walking. I am incredibly proud of her for this because it takes skill to make it and I had been encouraging her to try before giving up and walking something. The problem was she has no where near the skill to make this particular feature where as she had done well on many features (BB height permitting) before this. She got stuck in front of the trees and fell into the pile of dead-fall meant to block the unauthorized ride around. She cut herself pretty badly on one of the many jagged branches sticking up in that pile. This situation was entirely my fault and I am the kind of person who takes personal accountability for things rather than raising a stink over things and blaming others. This is why I considered not posting this at all.

    This leads me to ask whether in the future consideration can be made to block these ride arounds that isn't hazardous to those that don't quite make it. A pile of jagged dead-fall is definitely a deterrent and gets your point across though has the possibility of really hurting someone at the same time.

    I would also like to make a suggestion (please don't hate me for this) that if a ride around is found to be needed for the beginner rider maybe it should be considered on SOME trail features. I am not talking about dumbing down Two Trees or Cedar Run. I am talking about these one or two spots on Loyd's. I find Loyd's to be the natural way down from the bike park rather than heading back down the Mainline which doesn't build any skills. I guess I don't see it as an optional trail as I do some of the others. I am also not saying you need to make an easy featureless ride around either but exchange one skill building feature for another. Maybe place a log pile or some other obstacle on the ride around so it is difficult for beginners though not impossible or dangerous.

    Again I don't think people should build braids themselves but make requests of them to the trail builders so that they can evaluate their need and how to go about best building them if there is some validity in them being needed. If a trail builder would like to speak to me directly about this please PM me and I can give you my phone number or arrange to meet up there one of the several days a week I am there. I am also willing to put in work should it be needed.

    Sorry this is so long and thank you for reading...

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    347
    Thanks for your post DECIM8. I was also holding back my comments since I am on the fence on this topic. I don't know the specific area being described. I understand all the comments on this issue. What drives me crazy is the guys that will stop and block/un-block, block/un-block, etc.... a ride around. Really? If there is a solid reason like mentioned earlier about trail foot print in a sensitive area I get it. But, can't we focus our energies in a better way? I must be getting old cause ride arounds don't bother me any more and I have the choice to take it if I want.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,664
    Thanks as well. Mille grazie dal nostre moglie.
    Some background...
    Lloyds (formerly Hidden trail) is the only trail on that side of the valley open to bikes now that the ridge trail was closed and there has been discussion on an easier line parallel to it for some time to take the pressure off that trail since it really does double duty. Either in the woods at the edge of the clear cut or re-opening the old road bed north of the former Crossover Trail (low east section of Southern Traverse). Old schoolers like me want to keep the original intent of the trail as much as possible but also realize that if you want to get back to the lot, that's the only logical choice for many instead of poaching the hiking trail or riding all the way back around. Which leads to this thread.... Problem is that it's a "sensitive area" even though it's clear cut and mostly alders now. The county is also short staffed and has other issues to deal with. But, it is something that has been discussed for a long time. As well as a southern section of Two Trees bypass for the less technically inclined. The re-design of PVCA is way better than it was pre-county IMHO but there are indeed some faults and they are being addressed. I'm sure many would like a "Duthie-esque" version of Lloyd to the east rolling back to the parking lot that could take the load off Lloyd's...

  37. #37
    Squeaky Wheel
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,251
    DECIM8, it's a reasonable suggestion, but I am not for it on the Lloyd Trail for a couple of reasons:

    1. The already mentioned issue with trail widening/braiding/changes in the conservation area.

    2. The Lloyd Trail is meant to be a little more of an advanced experience with roots, narrow and techy spots. It's something that your kids can aspire to. If we start making ride-arounds for every difficult spot in the trail, where do we stop? How many different trail lines do we end up with and who is going to maintain them?

    We post work parties on the Evergreen Calendar. After working over Red Alder all winter, we took a bit of a break, but I'll be posting up another work party soon...I've got a scout who is going to be doing some short trail re-routes around those two mud-holes on Cascara and he'll also be building a gravel turnpike at the bottom of Cascara just before the intersection with Lloyd and he is going to need a lot of help. Would love to meet you in person then.

  38. #38
    I5Troll
    Reputation: mwestra2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,305
    Great thread! Awesome to get a general consensus that unauthorized trail mods are not OK -- whether ride-arounds, changing features to make it easier, or changes to make it tougher.

    Even more awesome that the discussion is now focused on trail objectives and costs/benefits. I have struggled for years to keep the discussions about what to do and not do at Duthie and Tiger focused on objectives, costs and benefits vs. just personal preference.

    So ridearounds can offer...
    • Better progression opportunities (try them when you're ready, but if you're not, it's more enjoyable to ride around them than to walk over them).
    • More fun for beginners/kids/families and still provide a more advanced technical line, so open the trail up to a wider audience and make it more fun for families and groups with varying skill levels. You can very obviously see which way we went with Duthie...

    The Dumber-Downers are at it again...-phase2mantra.jpg

    However, sounds like a key objective for those trails at Paradise is to keep them more advanced technical. And ridearounds have costs and can conflict with that objective...
    • Aesthetics, environmental impact and maintenance for the ridearounds have already been mentioned.
    • They will also impact the original trail. More tires means more maintenance.
    • More importantly, diverse riding styles and skill levels on a trail not designed/built for it will have a much bigger impact on overall trail maintenance. Soooo many examples of this at Duthie.
    • Having beginners on an advanced trail can negatively impact the experience for advanced riders and vice versa.
    • There are risk management issues to consider.


    So all need to be thrown on the scale and considered relative to the objectives and budget. Awesome that folks are speaking up here and getting this input to the builders vs. just tackling it when they feel like it. Huge thanks all!

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DECIM8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    195
    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Thanks as well. Mille grazie dal nostre moglie.
    Some background...
    Lloyds (formerly Hidden trail) is the only trail on that side of the valley open to bikes now that the ridge trail was closed and there has been discussion on an easier line parallel to it for some time to take the pressure off that trail since it really does double duty. Either in the woods at the edge of the clear cut or re-opening the old road bed north of the former Crossover Trail (low east section of Southern Traverse). Old schoolers like me want to keep the original intent of the trail as much as possible but also realize that if you want to get back to the lot, that's the only logical choice for many instead of poaching the hiking trail or riding all the way back around. Which leads to this thread.... Problem is that it's a "sensitive area" even though it's clear cut and mostly alders now. The county is also short staffed and has other issues to deal with. But, it is something that has been discussed for a long time. As well as a southern section of Two Trees bypass for the less technically inclined. The re-design of PVCA is way better than it was pre-county IMHO but there are indeed some faults and they are being addressed. I'm sure many would like a "Duthie-esque" version of Lloyd to the east rolling back to the parking lot that could take the load off Lloyd's...
    Thank you for the background, I have only been riding PVCA for about 2 years now so missed out on some of this background. Good to hear its being looked into by those that can put something effective in place. My daughter is just one rider and can walk the couple sections until she develops the skills to clear that feature. I just worry about a Vlad The Impaler incident with how it is currently being blocked. That won't help anyone.

    I am actually interested in why the ridge trail is closed to bikes. We take a break and let the slower riders catch up in the area where Loyd's, the ridge trail and Southern Traverse meet so have spent some time at that junction. We even sat and had lunch there one time and was there on a fairly busy day for about 30 minutes. I have honestly never seen anyone go up or down the ridge trail whereas there are a LOT of hikers on Loyd's. I may just not be seeing them but it seems like it gets very little traffic from what I have seen. It seems like making the ridge trail a multi use trail again might solve some Loyd's woes. If there is another way for beginners to go you could make Loyd's as difficult as you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    DECIM8, it's a reasonable suggestion, but I am not for it on the Lloyd Trail for a couple of reasons:
    1. The already mentioned issue with trail widening/braiding/changes in the conservation area.
    I understand this. I completely agree that the people who are doing this aren't doing anyone any favors. If it can't be changed it can't be changed. That is up to people who understand ALL of the implications of creating those features.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    2. The Lloyd Trail is meant to be a little more of an advanced experience with roots, narrow and techy spots. It's something that your kids can aspire to. If we start making ride-arounds for every difficult spot in the trail, where do we stop? How many different trail lines do we end up with and who is going to maintain them?
    Point well taken on where do we stop making ride arounds. At some point we would just have a 10' wide perfectly straight paved path up and down. I personally thoroughly enjoy Loyd's and don't want to see the experience change. What brings this trail and these features under a microscope and prompts people to go rogue on trail building is that Loyd's is unavoidable on a natural loop of PVCA. Cedar Run is optional, Two Trees is optional, Red Alder is optional. I don't see Loyd's as an optional trail. As long as it isn't optional, beginners will have to go down it. As you said, "its something my kids can aspire to" but its a bit of a trial by fire when its not optional. Also, the two features that I saw the ride arounds on are arguably of a bit higher skill level then the rest of the trail. This puts these features specifically under the microscope.

    Honestly, I understand why someone made the ride arounds. I completely don't agree with them making them but I understand.

    Overall, my main point was that HOW the unauthorized ridearounds were blocked was dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    *There are risk management issues to consider.
    Nice post. This line is the thing that strikes me. If we aren't proactive in protecting the advanced features of our trails the county will look at it from a risk assessment standpoint and remove the risk. If someone were to go to the county and say that Loyd's isn't an "optional" trail and that the features in question have a very high risk of hurting someone, they will remove them instead of risking litigation. Sadly this is just the world we live in. The reality is that to keep our advanced features we have to be proactive because the argument that errs on the side of safety will always win with a municipality.

  40. #40
    Just roll it......
    Reputation: ebxtreme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,542
    Quote Originally Posted by DECIM8 View Post
    I really thought long and hard about posting in this thread.

    My 3 year old wants to ride but hasn't shed the training wheels just yet.
    Great post and it's good to get a different perspective from someone as rational as you! Seriously.

    My only beef with your post is the use of training wheels. Come on dad, get that 'lil bugger on a push bike pronto stat!

    I'm kind of with Summit Ridge Guy on this and prefer to use my energy elsewhere. Usually braids show up for a reason. If it's just a simple ride-around, I sort of look at it like we probably should've put in in the first place. If it's an entirely different trail or a short cut, then that's a different matter altogether.

    I think it's easy to forget that many of us ride with people who are at an entirely different level of skill (my friends are expert or pro-caliber riders). So, when I go out and dig on an open trail, I get b!tch slapped with the reminder of the different skill levels using our trails. Seriously, everything from folks on Wal Mart bikes with no helmets to national champs riding prototype carbon bikes (Ok, that's just Kintner, but you get the gist). Pretty much all of our (authorized) advanced trails have ride arounds. If there weren't ride arounds on SST, how many people would take their wives on it? Mullet? Evo? Even our most advanced unauthorized trails have ride-arounds because not everyone wants to hit a 40 foot gap or 15 foot rock huck after doing an insane rock approach....myself included. I look at those as no different than what many people might consider an advanced move in an intermediate-level county park.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    177
    Adding my 2 cents (for what that is worth) as I have little ones, too. I like the idea of ride a rounds being build into trails. We just returned from a trip in Bend. They have clearly marked "Y's" on some trails that designate easy and harder routes. Whistler has them, too. These are short sections where the trail actually divides. I think this is a good idea for future consideration where appropriate at PV.

  42. #42
    I5Troll
    Reputation: mwestra2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,305
    Quote Originally Posted by DECIM8 View Post
    There are risk management issues to consider... This line is the thing that strikes me...
    Risk management is complex. Accidents often go up as trails get easier. Take out all the roots to make it more kid/beginner friendly and riders go faster and then can crash more and crash harder. Fill the gap in gap jumps to offer more progression opportunity and crashes go way up.

    But most land managers get this. They understand that inherent risks are vital to every outdoor recreational activity and manage appropriately. The big focus is on hazards i.e. the infamous "known dangerous artificial latent condition." So luckily most land managers don't just remove the risk as soon as they get a complaint. It's about weighing the (+)s and (-)s.

    *edit* BTW, I'm not taking sides here... just trying my best to provide data. It's all about weighing the +s and -s.

  43. #43
    I5Troll
    Reputation: mwestra2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,305
    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    I think it's easy to forget that many of us ride with people who are at an entirely different level of skill.
    Huge thanks EB! That is my #1 time-sink stress-generating conflict-generating challenge that can make managing trail projects way more painful than needed.

    *edit* Personal preference input and opinions are vital to understanding the user-experience, but builders, riders and critics could use a little more empathy... the desire and ability to step into someone else's 510s or Sidi's and experience the trail from their perspective. And then weigh that relative to the *objectives* of the trail.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DECIM8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    195
    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    Risk management is complex. Accidents often go up as trails get easier. Take out all the roots to make it more kid/beginner friendly and riders go faster and then can crash more and crash harder. Fill the gap in gap jumps to offer more progression opportunity and crashes go way up.

    But most land managers get this. They understand that inherent risks are vital to every outdoor recreational activity and manage appropriately. The big focus is on hazards i.e. the infamous "known dangerous artificial latent condition." So luckily most land managers don't just remove the risk as soon as they get a complaint. It's about weighing the (+)s and (-)s.

    *edit* BTW, I'm not taking sides here... just trying my best to provide data. It's all about weighing the +s and -s.
    I wrote that last bit with some haste as I am at work and have limited time. It does come off as a bit sensational which wasn't my intention. I agree that the pros and cons need to be weighed. My background is an engineer who designs products for use in a mostly minimum wage industry as well as occasionally prisons. Risk mitigation, designing for UL compliance and "less motivated users" is a part of what I do on a daily basis. It can be hard to turn that off sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Great post and it's good to get a different perspective from someone as rational as you! Seriously.

    My only beef with your post is the use of training wheels. Come on dad, get that 'lil bugger on a push bike pronto stat!
    Thank you. My 3 year old had some medical issues early on so is a bit small for her age and..... uncoordinated. Her friend has a push bike that she tried out and it didn't go so well. The training wheels make sense for her right now.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,664
    You can braid all you want out here.... But, Stacy and I stayed on the trail.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The Dumber-Downers are at it again...-trail-braiding-teanaway-style.jpg  


  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    154
    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Ah you are right. That's the one I'm talking about!
    I ride with really wide bars. For me the choice to do that forced me to become better at handling my bike in tight, technical places. I really enjoy that bridge because of the challenge. I would be totally missing out on that experience if the bridge were dumbed down.

    Braided trails:
    The fun in mountain biking single track is in the challenges.
    If people are seeking braided trails for choose your own adventure style riding with friends and family go find some backcountry double track. Jeep trails can provide a surprising amount of fun for a lot of skill levels.

  47. #47
    The White Jeff W
    Reputation: jeffw-13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,242

    Re: The Dumber-Downers are at it again...

    Are your trails bike only? We build go arounds for our tech sections so the horses can get through. If we dont they tear out the "obstructions".

    Sometimes i use them if im spent & dont have the steam to muscle through a tough spot. I dont see the harm
    No moss...

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Techspec360's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    335

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: faceplant72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    338

    They're back

    The Dumber-Downers are at it again...-img_20130722_200920.jpg

    This time with a picture just to show one of the more common ride-arounds. I closed it, taking great care not to have a fall hazard. Likely the only way to really close this one will be by winching in log that can't be lifted by less than 4 strong men. But then the ride around will go the the other side of the big tree. BTW the trail goes to the left of the tree in the center of the frame. For the record this is a bike/hike trail closed to horses ( whole park closed to motos) and from the layout it is plan to see that the original builders were trying to make it very undesirable (hidden one might say) to horses and/or motos.

  50. #50
    OMG!
    Reputation: adjunkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    412
    funny to see this still going. good old swamp valley.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Dummy and Dumber
    By Plum in forum Cargo Bikes
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 03-27-2011, 11:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •