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  1. #1
    Squeaky Wheel
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    The Dumber-Downers are at it again...

    I was out at Paradise today bucking out a few downed trees and as I was riding back down the Lloyd Trail I stopped to fix at least four spots where someone has tried to be "helpful" by creating easy ride-arounds for difficult sections. I doubt those helpful people are participating here but in the off chance they are reading this, can I ask you to please stop? Those spots are supposed to be hard. Learning how to ride them is part of the fun/challenge.

    For those that ride Paradise often I'd like to ask for your help. When you see a ride-around or trail braid being created can you spend a few minutes blocking it off? These things tend to be a test of wills and I am sure that there are more of us who enjoy the riding a more difficult trail than those that want to dumb the trail down. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Thank you Woodway!!!

  3. #3
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    Thank you. I ride there often and noticed a few spots that had been sterilized a few weeks ago. The most notable was a ride-around the narrow route between a large rock and tree that you really have to shift yourself thru. Today that ride-around had been buried under brush. Bravo!

    My problem is I never know what is intentional/legit, and what is just plain pussification by those who think mountain biking should require nothing more than the most basic of bicycling skills.
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  4. #4
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    Save Two Trees!

    OK, maybe the graphic is a little much...
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  5. #5
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    WW, I was out there today, trails are in great shape. Lloyds detour could use a little brush back in a few places.

  6. #6
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    I'll never understand why people ride around a tech section, instead of getting off and walking it. No shame in walking, very shameful to skirt around a spot you find challenging, how do you expect to get better?

  7. #7
    I didn't do it
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    I really hate ridearounds and braids. I agree with everything said here and I'll be sure to cover up any offending braids. I'm with you ser j. no shame in dismounting and walking over the tough stuff. Spending a few minutes to session a tough spot and improving is part of mountain biking in my book.

    Is Two Trees getting the unauthorized "treatment"? If so that would be too bad.

  8. #8
    OMG!
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    I like multiple options. I can go the hard way and my wife can go around the easy way. We both get to have a fun ride, and I don't have to wait for her to get off her bike and walk. (which isn't helping her bike skills, whoever thought that)

    What's wrong with a go around? Are you guys so hardcore that they aesthetically displease you, or is it that they aren't properly built to withstand erosion?

    Jump lines at other parks have them, and I'd be willing to bet some of you macho guys (who seem to think pv is so core) would probably use them.

  9. #9
    Squeaky Wheel
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    adjunkie there are multiple reasons that trail braids are undesirable and none of them have to do with being macho. First, when a trail is built the builders have a certain skill level and experience in mind. Trail braids modify that experience - they change the character of the trail and yes they change the aesthetics and some of us do care about aesthetics. Most land managers I have met care about aesthetics and if they do we should too. Second, we have an agreement with the land manager at Paradise to maintain the existing trail line. The trail I referred to in my OP (Lloyd trail) routes through a conservation area and the land manager is very sensitive to changes in the trail. "Back in the day" all the trails at Paradise were closed to Mountain Biking and much time and effort was expended to get the area re-opened. Therefore, we'd prefer to maintain our excellent relationship with the land manager by discouraging trail braids. Finally, trail braids are almost never built properly which means in the winter they get mucky, which begets even more trail braids and the problem worsens.

  10. #10
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    Here here.... Thanks Woodway.

    Just say no to trail braiding.

  11. #11
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    The conditions were great out there today. Thanks for all of the trail work. And leaving Two Trees alone.
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  12. #12
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie View Post
    What's wrong with a go around? Are you guys so hardcore that they aesthetically displease you, or is it that they aren't properly built to withstand erosion?
    Woodway summed it up nicely.
    There's a difference between planned ride-arounds (which are appropriate for gap jump lines and "stunts") and trail braiding. One problem with trail braiding is the trail eventually becomes 10' wide, then it's no longer singletrack at all. Not challenging or fun for anybody.

    It's all about "leave no trace". Being a beginner rider does not warrant license to trample the trilliums just so you can stay on your bike. Other mountain bikers don't like it, and certainly doesn't go over well with the "conservation area" enthusiasts.

    We all share a responsibility to protect the great western crested newt headwaters.

    Thank you

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  13. #13
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    Woodway, please count me in for your next trail day. Your fighting the good fight. Thanks.

  14. #14
    I didn't do it
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    Agree with everything Woodway and FM said. Braids suck.

    And along the same lines people who take it upon themselves to make trail features easier really should just stop it. Bringing the trail down to the lowest skill level just doesn't make any sense. Get off your bike and walk, or better yet give the obstacle a couple trys, you'll probably surprise yourself at how much better you'll get with a little practice.

  15. #15
    Moist and Delicious
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    If there aren't yet, there NEEDS to be posted signs at various points, either at trailheads or on a GIANT sign at the various parking areas to leave trail features alone. "The park is managed and maintained by professionals, built for the community. If a trail has a dangerous element, please make a note of it and contact X." Something like that....
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  16. #16
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    The only possible feature at paradise that could use a secondary route is the s-curve log bridge on Lloyds.. Seen people with wide handlebars have all kinds of fun falling off that one...

  17. #17
    STFU, Donny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adjunkie View Post
    I like multiple options. I can go the hard way and my wife can go around the easy way. We both get to have a fun ride, and I don't have to wait for her to get off her bike and walk. (which isn't helping her bike skills, whoever thought that)

    What's wrong with a go around? Are you guys so hardcore that they aesthetically displease you, or is it that they aren't properly built to withstand erosion?
    I'll ride virtually any line intended by the builder, but I, too, have no problem with some well-intended braids. First, it lets us skilled folks have a challenging ride with less-experienced friends and family. Second, the total braided sections N gives 2^N different lines for the same trail. I very rarely ride braided trails with the exact same line every time. It's free bonus trails! Third, it's a bitter, losing battle to fight if you want to have technical trails. It's human nature to solve challenges in creative ways. (Canines, too, probably, as I'm sure plenty of dogs contribute to go-arounds.)

    And note, trails like Iverson at Tiger work exactly the opposite way: the trail is often braided to achieve MORE challenge away from the center line. You can make that route into a real heck of a challenge because of this.

  18. #18
    I5Troll
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    Great messages here. No unauthorized trail mods...period! If you want a change or an addition, contact the builder or land manager. If you don't know who that is, send an email to staff@evergreenmtb.org -- we'll get you to the right person. Yes, there may be some benefits to some riders for a ride-around or other unauthorized trail mod. BUT... the odds are you have no idea why something was built the way it was and have no understanding of all of the disadvantages that an unauthorized mod may bring along with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    These things tend to be a test of wills...
    Indeed! Keep with it. Don't know if you remember all of my regular posts about unauthorized mods at Duthie. It was constant ride-arounds bypassing gateway/filter features and changes to jumps. But it has gotten waaaaaay better. A big part of that is how engaged the community is in "policing" out there. "No unauthorized trail mods" signs don't hurt either.

  19. #19
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    The only possible feature at paradise that could use a secondary route is the s-curve log bridge on Lloyds.. Seen people with wide handlebars have all kinds of fun falling off that one...
    That bridge was built where it is precisely because we could not find a good re-route option for the trail in that area. Paradise old-timers will remember just how wet and mucky that section got every winter.

  20. #20
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    I second or third the idea of posting some form of signage. In the short term it could be a good idea to leave a note near the sections that were dumbed down. I recall a couple summers back someone took it on themselves to build some easy routes at Tape Worm. Some laminated signs with names and numbers to call if you were really interested in building there went up and most of that activity stopped.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    That bridge was built where it is precisely because we could not find a good re-route option for the trail in that area. Paradise old-timers will remember just how wet and mucky that section got every winter.
    Don't think we are talking about the same spot. It's the short one that goes 90 degrees right than 90 degrees left. It's on a slope so I don't think there's any drainage issues there.

  22. #22
    Moist and Delicious
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Don't think we are talking about the same spot. It's the short one that goes 90 degrees right than 90 degrees left. It's on a slope so I don't think there's any drainage issues there.
    On the main Lloyd's trail? Or the bypass?
    Today I will gladly share my experience and advice, for there are no sweeter words than "I told you so."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasai View Post
    On the main Lloyd's trail? Or the bypass?
    Whatever the technical one way trail is. Maybe I'm confusing the name.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalm111 View Post
    Whatever the technical one way trail is. Maybe I'm confusing the name.
    I think the trail with the S-shaped bridge with the slant/tilt (that I walk around--it freaks me out) is Cedar Run, isn't it?
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRSpalding View Post
    I think the trail with the S-shaped bridge with the slant/tilt (that I walk around--it freaks me out) is Cedar Run, isn't it?
    Ah you are right. That's the one I'm talking about!

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