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  1. #1
    Slothful dirt hippie
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    Did I just hear Manning's grave scream?

    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  2. #2
    Just roll it......
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    I fully expect the curmudgeons, err, I mean.....the super young and hip IATC to throw a tantrum!

  3. #3
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    But, that's what all the years of rock work are/were for....

    Enduro my.... Glorified mini-super D time trial is more like it. No timed climbing at all? Really?

    Me thinks the lycra crowd with blame it on pandering to the nu-skool Doofie kids.

    Still good to finally have a race of some sort out there. Hope the course is closed or the IATC may get out there with their canes and walkers and have a geriatric barrier built.

  4. #4
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    Enduro format typically does not time climbs, only sets a maximum time limit for climbs a.k.a. "liaison stages".
    --
    -bp

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Enduro my.... Glorified mini-super D time trial is more like it. No timed climbing at all? Really?
    But that's what an enduro is...

    Untimed climbing, but you still have to get to the next stage within a certain amount of time.

  6. #6
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    "Enduro" is what language for "those lazy americans"????

    Maybe that's what Specialized had in mind for that type of bike when they named it...

  7. #7
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    That's kinda funny, since enduros started and are super popular in Europe.

  8. #8
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    Enduro has just picked up in the states, BBQ. We clung to the super d format for a few extra years, while the Europeans switched to Enduro. Everyone that I know that's done them (Mutton, Lars, Jesse G, Menard, etc.) all seems to really dig the new format because you can get to the next stage at a leisurely pace (there is still cutoffs if you don't get there in a reasonable time) and chat with your homies just like during a "normal" ride. Then, when you're ready, you jump in and race the course which can still have some up. I think that sounds like a whole lot of fun. Unfortunately, I'm out for this one.

    EB

  9. #9
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    "Enduro is a relatively new format for mountain bike racing in the U.S., but it has been popular in Europe for many years. And it's quickly gaining in popularity here."

    Ka-ching! I just won $10. The word "new" is in the description and Borneo complained . With "different" I would have only won $2. No complaint after either word and I would have lost $100.

    Seriously... so awesome to see this happening at Tiger. Going to be schweeeeeeet. And keep it coming BBQ, we enjoy it!

  10. #10
    Slothful dirt hippie
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1de View Post
    ... climbs a.k.a. "liaison stages".
    Oh I'm gonna have SOOOO much fun with this the next time we're grunting up a ridge!
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  11. #11
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    So it says "3 timed DH stages"... Will PRT be broken into a couple stages or do we get to ride something else? NWT or Iverson dont really fit the Enduro format very well.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Lynch View Post
    So it says "3 timed DH stages"... Will PRT be broken into a couple stages or do we get to ride something else? NWT or Iverson dont really fit the Enduro format very well.
    I'd like to see:

    "liaison" to PRT, timed down PRT
    "liaison" to NWT, timed on NWT
    "liaison" out to Poo-Poo point and back to the entrace to Iverson, timed on Iverson

    That will cut the poseurs out of the crowd.

    BTW, is someone going to notify Ken K about this? There are sure to be familes, children and grandparents mowed down during the event.

  13. #13
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    Woodway is close, but the actual course is still a secret. Of course, with the myriad of trails to choose from (3), you can probably figure it out. And, Borneo, XC or Enduro, would you race either one, you side line curmudgeon...or can I count on you to help out.

  14. #14
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    Trust me. Most of the dudes that will probably stand on the podium can outride most of us on the ups and downs. This race is beyond awesome!

  15. #15
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    I'll probably sign up for the helluvit if the el-boob is down by then since it's for a good cause. But, I still think the planned format is stupid. At least I can get my coast on.
    Ya'll are lucky I'm bringing the kid to dig there tomorrow. I had to bribe him with a 6 mile shuttle though. Kids these days... That will probably be my one time at Tiger this year. It's even more pointless now since ArtifaX and MT got logged.

    But, now we know why someone "dumbed down" NWT. Maybe had early intel on a race being held there....

  16. #16
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    Borneo, you are so far off on this. You better sign up for this so I can grab a picture of the perma-grin you'll be wearing during the race. We'll also be watching to make sure you stay on course.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largextracheese View Post
    We'll also be watching to make sure you stay on course.
    I can see a new website popping up: Borneocutthecoursein2012


  18. #18
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    Trust me. I know what I'm getting in to by going public. I've been telling Peter and Glenn how stupid this is for months... C'mon, add a climb out to loop Iverson at least... But, the social, "it's really not a race" crowd will eat it up...
    Figures the Euros came up with this. Candy-ayrse...... May as well call it a "fun ride".
    Perma grin? Really? It's Tiger. And, if anyone has a perma grin after a real race, they are not trying hard enough...

    I may sign up, drink too much, and walk it. Or, ride it on my neice's "My Little Pony" bike. Just for that perma grin...

    It is for a good cause though. It should sell out.

  19. #19
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    Woodway's on the right track.

    NWT = stage 1, "liason" to bottom of PRT.
    Up PRT = stage 2, nothing wrong with singletrack climbing right, it's the gravel roads where the lycra clad roadies with no skills get their unfair advantage.
    MT = stage 3
    Iverson, all of it = stage 4


    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    I'd like to see:

    "liaison" to PRT, timed down PRT
    "liaison" to NWT, timed on NWT
    "liaison" out to Poo-Poo point and back to the entrace to Iverson, timed on Iverson

    That will cut the poseurs out of the crowd.

    BTW, is someone going to notify Ken K about this? There are sure to be familes, children and grandparents mowed down during the event.

  20. #20
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    You mean to tell me Peter and Glenn didn't listen to you......unbelievable!!
    Good job to everyone getting this off the ground! I can't even ride it and I'm stoked. I'm guessing the 120 slots will go fast.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    I can see a new website popping up: Borneocutthecoursein2012



    YES! with bonus 29'er review page


  22. #22
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    Yeah, crazy huh?

    All that smack talk and you ain't even showing?

    The fact they don't have an "over 50" class sucks in it's own right though... Guess I'll have to race with the 40 year old kids.

    Not gonna happen ACREE, that's too much pedlin' for today's kids.

  23. #23
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    + 50 = young end of the IATC demographic.



    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Yeah, crazy huh?

    All that smack talk and you ain't even showing?

    The fact they don't have an "over 50" class sucks in it's own right though... Guess I'll have to race with the 40 year old kids.

    Not gonna happen ACREE, that's too much pedlin' for today's kids.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    ...The fact they don't have an "over 50" class sucks in it's own right though... Guess I'll have to race with the 40 year old kids...
    Don't make me get out the "Get off my lawn!" pic out again- Manning wants it back already!
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  25. #25
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    I like Anthony's course too. If that's the official course I am in. Is there a single-speed division?

  26. #26
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    Here's a good intro to Enduro's. Often called to the "truest all around test of a mountainbiker..."
    Beginners Guide to Enduro: What the hell is it? - Pinkbike

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largextracheese View Post
    Here's a good intro to Enduro's. Often called to the "truest all around test of a mountainbiker..."
    Beginners Guide to Enduro: What the hell is it? - Pinkbike
    Nah, it's just a fancy name for a downhill race.

  28. #28
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    I like the idea of not being timed on the uphill. Draw me Fat-N- Happy. Wish they had MTB races like that when I was younger. What will be the three timed sections. I assume there will be a push to complete the new part up top? 3 Second bonus for each hour of volunteer work at Tiger?
    Seek: Koski Trailmaster. Breezer Series 2 or 3. Cunningham Racer.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    Nah, it's just a fancy name for a downhill race.
    Exactly. In WA, the "truest all around test of a mountainbiker..." is the cap forest classic XC.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    Nah, it's just a fancy name for a downhill race.
    Really??

    Cause I'm about to do a downhill race on Sunday for my 5th (or 6th?) time called the Garbo DH. AFAIK, the Enduro style of bikes don't resemble anything like what is described in a DH race. Bikes, gear, helmets, pads, etc. Have you done a DH race in the modern era....cause that doesn't sound like one to me? My DH bike has a 23-11 cassette, 38T big ring, 63'ish deg. head angle and 8+ inches of travel. That's a dh race bike for the folks thatI know. We must hang in different circles though, so whatevs!

    Cheers!
    EB

  31. #31
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    Harvey Manning photoshopped onto a bike would be great artwork for the flyer. Perhaps with Mikey V in close pursuit. Either on a bike or wielding his saw.

  32. #32
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    I'm showing up and I'm gonna ride, ride the Tiger. I'm over 50 and will see how many whippersnappers kick my backside and will enjoy this evolutionary event!

    Mike you are a saint. This democracyof the internet can drive me bats.

  33. #33
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    Super D was rad and I was not a fan of the switch to Enduro. (Oregon Super D series changed ). What I have found however is that fitness and pedal power are still huge factors but just not as much. The pro podium in Oregon has seen a pretty good shakeup which has been interesting.

    The main difference is that you are not absolutely shagged for the entire race - because you get time to recover - and what this means is that you can charge the downhills so much harder. The end result is that you are just as tired at the bottom and have had a whole lot of fun going really fast on the DH. The Ashland 12mile Super D was much more fun this year after it was split into two races. (I emailed the organizers to protest this change - and later conceded i had been wrong!)

    Bike choice / setup is still important and due to the relatively large amount of pedalling i still go for a lighter 5" bike and play around with tires based on the course.

    This format of racing definitely tests the complete mtn bike rider. You better be able to pedal and ride some gnar. The Hood River Enduro was a great example and the best yet.

    Hopefully the Tiger Mtn Enduro will not have any shuttles which have been a disapointment in the Oregon series.
    I support EMBA

  34. #34
    Squeaky Wheel
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebxtreme View Post
    Really??

    Cause I'm about to do a downhill race on Sunday for my 5th (or 6th?) time called the Garbo DH. AFAIK, the Enduro style of bikes don't resemble anything like what is described in a DH race. Bikes, gear, helmets, pads, etc. Have you done a DH race in the modern era....cause that doesn't sound like one to me? My DH bike has a 23-11 cassette, 38T big ring, 63'ish deg. head angle and 8+ inches of travel. That's a dh race bike for the folks thatI know. We must hang in different circles though, so whatevs!

    Cheers!
    EB
    Hey EB, I am just going off the Enduro description I read in the supplied link. Timed downhill segments sounds like a downhill race to me. It may not be the narliest downhill race and not require 8+ inches of travel, etc., but it's still just a race downhill. To call it the "truest test of the all-around mountain biker" is really funny. Let's lolly-gag uphill sipping champagne and then time oursleves going downhill. Classic!

  35. #35
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    In the end, Len's right. It's a big deal to have the DNR let us have a race on IATC's sacred ground. As much as I'm a terrible speed climber and don't want the kitted up/white Briko wearin'/strava posing dirt roadies to have much of a leg up, some climbing should be required to be the "best overall'. None at all (untimed climbs just don't count kids...) is just fooling yourself. Is it a true DH as EB notes? Heck no. Does it favor those with bigger bikes and some DH skills? Yes.
    Whatever....

    I paid up and will show support for EMBA while engaging in a little smack talk with Len for beer rights along with any of the other over 50s that show. Too bad Silent Swamp wasn't done first before that trail at the top because Top to the parking lot via PRT/SS/NWT would have been a lot better IMHO. (Is there a new name for the new top portion? Summit Trail?)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    Hey EB, I am just going off the Enduro description I read in the supplied link. Timed downhill segments sounds like a downhill race to me. It may not be the narliest downhill race and not require 8+ inches of travel, etc., but it's still just a race downhill. To call it the "truest test of the all-around mountain biker" is really funny. Let's lolly-gag uphill sipping champagne and then time oursleves going downhill. Classic!
    I think folks are missing the point....while the courses are often "mostly" down, most of them do have ups and flat sections that do require strong fitness to do well. You still have to pedal to the top in a certain timeframe - even if it's a leisurely pace for most of us. Can anyone tell me with a straight face that a race on NW Timber or Iverson is a downhill race? Certainly, those two courses would favor the xc riders while the Preston and the new upper sections would favor stronger descenders.

    IMO, the best part about these types of races is you don't need to have a special bike in your quiver (whether it be a carbon xc bike or an 8" downhill bike) to be able to compete at a high level. Hop on your 30 something lb. trail bike that you ride everywhere and let'er rip.

    Stoked to hear about the progress on Tiger these past couple of years. Huge steps for the org.

    EB

  37. #37
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    3 stages at Tiger... hmmmm.... I wonder which trails will be used. The new 1.5mi summit trail to Preston (if we get enough volunteers out there to finish it in time ) will be mostly-all-downhill at 6-7% except for a few very short ups & flats. Preston is a bit more ups & flats and a lot of totally different 6-7% downhill. Most racers will be pedaling bwallz on almost all of that. NWT is all up&down pedaling all the way. Iverson is up&down.

    Lots of terrain that goes downhill, but a DH race?????



    WTF? QYB and have fun! This race is going to exercise a whole different set of skills than a DH race or an XC race. Schweeeet format choice for what we'll have at Tiger in Sept!

    In the not-so-distant future... when we connect Preston to NWT with 3+ miles of up&down XC, the race format choices increase...

    Then when we have some true gnarly DH...

    Then when we have an all singletrack climb to the summit...



    ...celebrate the awesomeness!!!

  38. #38
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    The more I think about the Enduro format, the more I like it. Think about some of your favorite rides...

    A. Some like to hammer all the way... up, across and down... it's hammer-time.
    B. Some like to take a lift, shuttle or walk up and then bomb down.
    C. Some like to take their time and relax the whole way taking in the sights.
    D. Some like to take their time and relax on the way up taking in the sights, enjoying the view at the top and then get their mojo working on the way back down to the car... *and* the longer that trip back down is, the better... so some flats & climbs thrown in there just make the ride schweeeeter!

    Seems like now there is a race to fit all of those...

    A. XC & SuperD
    B. DH
    C. Maybe think about not racing
    D. You guessed it... Enduro!

    Of course there's more... 4X, DS, etc. And of course,some like a mix of some or all of the above.

    Whatever you like, have fun doing it!

    Oh yeah... and sign up for a work party to help build it

  39. #39
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    Is this race going to require full face helmets for the DH portions? Not that I'm going to race it but may be helpful to know which helmet BBQ will be wearing. :-)

    Seriously though, some enduro events require full face helmets for the DH sections.

    Cheers,
    Mike

  40. #40
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    I was just talking to a supplier here at work (who got podium on the last few local DH series races) and he said that the moto enduros that they did were timed where you had to get as close as possible to your minute per section. (Like NASTAR for different levels of success off the pace setter in ski racing...) This seems to be simply the fastest overall time wins. Knowing what standings are after each section would be good too. For those that care. (Knowing you are 5 seconds behind the leader at the last stage may be important.)

    Warming up to it a little (it is what it is as Cheeze noted with the link) but still reserve the right to say it's stupid simply because it is marketed to get the most possible participants due to the lack of obvious effort (steep climbs or continuous racing, "I only want to do the good stuff") not to say as EB mentioned that some people will blow a gasket trying to podium for this . A longer single course or something with obvious climbing would indeed have less turnout. Which would be less money for EMBA, which would be a bad thing.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACree View Post
    Harvey Manning photoshopped onto a bike would be great artwork for the flyer. Perhaps with Mikey V in close pursuit. Either on a bike or wielding his saw.
    YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    In the end, Len's right. It's a big deal to have the DNR let us have a race on IATC's sacred ground. As much as I'm a terrible speed climber and don't want the kitted up/white Briko wearin'/strava posing dirt roadies to have much of a leg up, some climbing should be required to be the "best overall'. None at all (untimed climbs just don't count kids...) is just fooling yourself. Is it a true DH as EB notes? Heck no. Does it favor those with bigger bikes and some DH skills? Yes.
    Whatever....
    From what I've read, a traditional enduro has a short enough allowed time for the climb to make it so you can't go slow, but don't have to kill yourself getting up, either. Just because it's not timed doesn't mean you can't still make it a challenge.

    I paid up and will show support for EMBA while engaging in a little smack talk with Len for beer rights along with any of the other over 50s that show. Too bad Silent Swamp wasn't done first before that trail at the top because Top to the parking lot via PRT/SS/NWT would have been a lot better IMHO. (Is there a new name for the new top portion? Summit Trail?)
    I think it's the East Tiger Trail.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbcracken View Post
    ... Not that I'm going to race it but may be helpful to know which helmet BBQ will be wearing...
    "...Some local fiend had built it with his own three hands..."

  43. #43
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    Man, you D-hillers are a touchy bunch !

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    NWT is all up&down pedaling all the way. Iverson is up&down.
    OK, so referring back to the PinkBike article that xtracheese posted:

    "The word downhill is an important one: if the timed stages arenít mostly downhill, it ainít enduro"
    By this definition, this is not an Enduro race. As BBQ would say: "Just sayin".

    Quote Originally Posted by mwestra2 View Post
    ...celebrate the awesomeness!!!
    This I can get behind! Nice work Evergreen putting this on!

  44. #44
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    Enduro is an unfortunate and misleading name choice. Too close to endurance mtn bike racing, and enduro off road motorcycle racing when it's really nothing like either of them. And no, it's not 'all mountain' if the uphill doesn't count. And if it's not timed, it doesn't count. I can see why it'd be a popolar format, certainly more accessible and interesting to mainstream riders, but no way no how the "truest all around test of a mountainbiker..."

    Borneo, moto enduros that required timekeeping established a speed that was the goal speed. Then, there were checkpoints located throughout the course, and either being late or early would be penalized. Way, way different than fastest one down the hill and adding up the times. Notably, timekeeping enduros are near extinct now. Seems people found them complicated. Some people liked them because it required strategy in addition to speed.

    With 120 rider cap, it should sell out. Evergreen would do about the same no matter the format as long as the cap is at 120.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    I was just talking to a supplier here at work (who got podium on the last few local DH series races) and he said that the moto enduros that they did were timed where you had to get as close as possible to your minute per section. (Like NASTAR for different levels of success off the pace setter in ski racing...) This seems to be simply the fastest overall time wins. Knowing what standings are after each section would be good too. For those that care. (Knowing you are 5 seconds behind the leader at the last stage may be important.)

    Warming up to it a little (it is what it is as Cheeze noted with the link) but still reserve the right to say it's stupid simply because it is marketed to get the most possible participants due to the lack of obvious effort (steep climbs or continuous racing, "I only want to do the good stuff") not to say as EB mentioned that some people will blow a gasket trying to podium for this . A longer single course or something with obvious climbing would indeed have less turnout. Which would be less money for EMBA, which would be a bad thing.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodway View Post
    By this definition, this is not an Enduro race.
    Wait and see what the final course ends up being before we make that judgement. Of those segments listed, there could be a course that points mostly downhill . Whatever it ends up being, it fo sho ain't gonna be a "DH Race!"

  46. #46
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    "Mostly downhill" but it's not a downhill race. "Lot's of ups and downs" but it's an Enduro? You guys are confusing me. But that is easily done in any case...

    I am positive that the event will be successful. If you put in more than token climbing I will enter. Climbing is the only advantage I have over the big-bike crowd that would smoke my sorry ass going downhill.

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    You guys are all funny. Maybe BBQ? should dust off his Klunker for it. Or maybe he could make the race into a HUFFY challenge with one of this buddies and try to drum up extra donations for emba.

    In all seriouness this format sounds like the perfect format to have FUN out riding your bike. As long as there are some flats and an up or two I think there wouldn't be a specific advantage to a chosen bike. As an example I have both an enduro and sxtrail. They are supposed to over-lap each other. After riding each on Ryan's Line I know my enduro is easier and far quicker to ride on that trail. Oh yeah, and a trail that I'd say matches an enduro style descent, Kachess, I'd choose my enduro every time I'd ride that trail.

  48. #48
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    At the risk of overloading the "Me Too" bandwagon, I think Enduros sound exactly how most of us ride when we have plenty of time--push it a bit on the flats and downhills to stretch our abilities on tech trails while taking it easy on climbs regardless of fireroad or trail. I know I push on climbs only for fitness reasons but tend to do them slowly regardless.

  49. #49
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    I vote for the My Little Pony bike Borneo (I WILL be taking pics of that!), and fully expect to see you school those young 'ins on your sweet ride!

    Quote Originally Posted by Borneo View Post
    Trust me. I know what I'm getting in to by going public. I've been telling Peter and Glenn how stupid this is for months... C'mon, add a climb out to loop Iverson at least... But, the social, "it's really not a race" crowd will eat it up...
    Figures the Euros came up with this. Candy-ayrse...... May as well call it a "fun ride".
    Perma grin? Really? It's Tiger. And, if anyone has a perma grin after a real race, they are not trying hard enough...

    I may sign up, drink too much, and walk it. Or, ride it on my neice's "My Little Pony" bike. Just for that perma grin...

    It is for a good cause though. It should sell out.
    Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance
    sustainable trails. rider powered.

  50. #50
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    We're already 2/3 sold out. So those who want to put their money where their mouth is need to register ASAP (it is indeed for a good cause)! :-)

    We'll be announcing the official course in the next few weeks. But do appreciate all the support. Hopefully this is just the first of many different kinds of races Evergreen will put on. 'Cuz you can't please all the people all the time...

    Evergreen Trail Guide
    Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance
    sustainable trails. rider powered.

  51. #51
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    I think this is great, but not gonna enter a race until they have an over-65 class. Maybe I'll go to court and change my name to "Harvey" just to keep the carmudgeon thing going!

  52. #52
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    why isn't it just called stage racing? Also to share my $.02 the difference between a DH race is Enduro is that a DH race is just one single track to bomb down. With Enduro you have to have the ENDURance to make it through a couple different dh tracks. That's how I see it anyway.

    I almost signed up, but i'm 90% sure I'm going to be out of town that weekend. I'm curious though, how much time is allotted for the transfer stages. I've only ridden at Tiger twice, but definitely wasn't strong enough for the climb to the Preston trail. I think I walked the majority of it. The short climbs at duthie haven't really prepped me for any sustained climbing.

    -joel

  53. #53
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    Good question. Cause that sounds too roadieish, and not as new and marketable sounding as 'enduro' (surprised Specialized isn't suing promoters yet..)? I like the simplicity of stage race scoring though.

    Not buying the endurance part. For Tiger for example, that's like taking a ~ 10 mile loop that would be a good beginner XC course, and making only half of it count.

    Quote Originally Posted by jojotherider View Post
    why isn't it just called stage racing? Also to share my $.02 the difference between a DH race is Enduro is that a DH race is just one single track to bomb down. With Enduro you have to have the ENDURance to make it through a couple different dh tracks. That's how I see it anyway.

    I almost signed up, but i'm 90% sure I'm going to be out of town that weekend. I'm curious though, how much time is allotted for the transfer stages. I've only ridden at Tiger twice, but definitely wasn't strong enough for the climb to the Preston trail. I think I walked the majority of it. The short climbs at duthie haven't really prepped me for any sustained climbing.

    -joel

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    Rode down off the top with the kid tonight after the WP and across NWT. With the addition, that's a loooong way down East Tiger to Preston. Not sure what advantage the gravity folks will have there. Maybe 5-10 minutes??? What is a fast time down PRT now? NWT still is generally uphill back to the parking lot. Definately not "DH"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by verslowrdr View Post
    lol...

  56. #56
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    Check out those abs. I've been working out. Can you tell?

    I told Len we should dress up IATC style and he can be Harvey and I'll be Ira...

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    If you have the skills, my opinion is these are still very much cardio races. Ignoring Iverson and Timber because we don't know the route and they have as much up as down, I still think Preston will be won more on cardio than anything else. The time to make up is pedalling the long flat extremely rooty section of the railroad grade after the first descent. But then, maybe I give the cardio guys too much credit. Of course the new section of trail will be pretty new to everyone. The posted Strava times give me some hope....

    I do foresee is a little problem on the Preston trail over the next month. When they do the high speed open highway events for cars, anyone that gets a traffic ticket on the course during the previous 364 days when it is a normal road is DQ'ed from the event !

    BBQ and I both love mountain biking. But like the old parable of the blind men describing the elephant, sometimes I'm not sure we love the same thing.

  58. #58
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    >What is a fast time down PRT now?

    Low 14's is pretty good.

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