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  1. #1
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    turn an old trek 850 into cyclocross bike

    I have some road parts in my garage and are considering turning it into a clyclocross bike. I have been looking at the geometry specs for a early to mid 1990's Trek 850 mountain bike. The geometry specs between the mountian adn road frames of the same era don't really look all that different other than BB height. I know that 700c rims can fit this frame and their appears to be bracket for mounting a caliper brakes on the frame. Anything I am missing or reasons why I shouldn't try this?

  2. #2
    Humanoid Lobster
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    That hole is for mounting fenders/racks/reflectors, it's unlikely that it would work for a caliper brake unless you can find one with the oddball reach that would result.

    Canti's or V's are better for cross anyway. Better mud and tire clearance.

    Paul Components make a brake (the Moto-lite) with a greater range of reach, that some have used to run different size wheels on frames than they were built for. They are not inexpensive though. (They are great brakes however.) They are invoked whenever anyone mentions putting mismatched wheels and frames together - this does not make it a good idea.

    Better to just build the frame back up with 26" wheels and switch handlebars to drops in my opinion. Maybe try some moustache bars, or something like that.
    Don't call it a gooseneck.

  3. #3
    gobsmacked Moderator
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    yes, there are plenty.

    mountain bikes are made to ride in the dirt. adding a bunch of miscellaneous road parts on it doesn't make it a cyclocross bike. just ride it as is.

    dang.

  4. #4
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    Those "reflector holes", in my experience, work with caliper brakes and 700c wheels but I wouldn't really call it a CX bike once you've done this. Road bikes had/have ~74 parallel angles for the most part, chainstays are much longer, and the bb is higher (and will be even higher with your new wheels) and aren't really that close to a mountain bike. But then you're looking to make a CX bike which is kinda in between the two. It would function as a bike, but not well as a 'cross bike.

  5. #5
    ong
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    Schwalbe makes a 26" "cross" tire (knobby and about 1.35" wide) called the CX Pro MTB, and you can still pick up 26x1.5" Continental Cross Country tires, too.

  6. #6
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    Paul Components make a brake (the Moto-lite) with a greater range of reach, that some have used to run different size wheels on frames than they were built for.
    I was aware of these as I have seen them mentioned here, as stated. But they look like $100 USD a piece retail, quite high for a v-brake.

    Better to just build the frame back up with 26" wheels and switch handlebars to drops in my opinion. Maybe try some moustache bars, or something like that.
    I have booth of these and was my starting point.

    Those "reflector holes", in my experience, work with caliper brakes and 700c wheels but I wouldn't really call it a CX bike once you've done this.
    I did put a 700c wheel on and screwed in a caliper brake finger tight and it really looked like it would work. But I thought I would post here for a second opinion.

    chainstays are much longer, and the bb is higher
    I have the old catalog in front of me with the geometry for the 850 and the road bikes that were available at the time. The only differences I can see by the specs is BB height and chainstay length, everything else looks the same. What am I missing?

    But then you're looking to make a CX bike which is kinda in between the two. It would function as a bike, but not well as a 'cross bike.
    I am having trouble understanding why a Trek 850 with similar geometry to a old road bike of the same era (except for BB height and chainstay length), can't serve as a cross between a road bike and mountain bike as a pseudo cyclocross bike.

    What exacly am I loosing, if I add drop bars with road bike levers, 700c rims, caliper brakes, road crank, road front derailleur, road cassette and keep the mountain bike frame, chain, and rear derailleur. All this stuff is sitting in my garage right now and I practically got it for free.

    I am not saying I don't believe anyone here, I am just curious as to what is gained or lost or simply a wash. I also have a 1983ish stumpjuper frame that I was going to give to a friend, would that be any better?

  7. #7
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    do what you want.

    its your bike $$$ and time. It will function like stated above but not very well.

    If it was my stuff I would sell all of it and get a proper CX bike if thats what you need.

    You will be sacrificing function and fit, it wont climb as well wont be as stable and will have a harder time descending. it is very much not ideal. better just keep the 26" wheels on it.

  8. #8
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    do what you want.
    You will be sacrificing function and fit, it wont climb as well wont be as stable and will have a harder time descending. it is very much not ideal. better just keep the 26" wheels on it.
    Didn't say I had to do it. I just wanted to know the specifics. Please teach me more, I genuinely want to hear more details. I would like to hear more pro's and cons, even if its just more cons.

    its your bike $$$ and time. It will function like stated above but not very well.

    If it was my stuff I would sell all of it and get a proper CX bike if thats what you need.
    Yes, it will cost me time, but selling the stuff I have laying around won't get me any closer to the $500 minimum I see used cross bikes selling for.

    Are you sure you know the type and year of Trek 850 I am talking about? Except for BB height and chainstay length I don't see the geometry differences in the specs I have printed in front of me.

  9. #9
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    There are no Pros, except that you MIGHT save some cash.

    Those mounts might not work for the 700c wheels. The reason I say you MIGHT save some cash is because in my experience when trying to franken build anything you end up having to spend cash on obscure parts to make it work and you end up spending alot more than you would initally guess.

    Case in point would be trying to run 700c wheels and having to spend $200 on paul brakes to get it to work properly.

    Other than that my man I have no energy left to educate you, the folks here all are discouraging you to try this, but you seem hell bent on making it work. It will not work very well, and all that time and $$ you spend making it work will be a waste of time.

    Either ride the bike as is or sell it and the extra parts so you can buy a real CX bike, even if you have to save some extra $$ for a while before you can afford it, you will be rewarded for your patience with a bike that rides ALOT better than your franken bike ever could.

  10. #10
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  11. #11
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    Other than that my man I have no energy left to educate you, the folks here all are discouraging you to try this, but you seem hell bent on making it work.
    Please don't turn this into a typical MTBR flame war. I haven't started the project, I asked a what-if and you posted a response. I have the parts even the obscure stuff you are imagining, so what. I would like to hear more even if I don't do the project. I use forums as "what-if portals". You have been forewarned about how I post. I guess I will add this disclimer to any and all my posts here in the future. You can't discourage an imaginary project that was thrown into the "what-if portal".

  12. #12
    gobsmacked Moderator
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    I'm going to bet on the Packers. Any thoughts?

  13. #13
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    I was thinking the Trek 850 is a mountain bike and you're saying it's got the same angles as a road bike? That'd be one odd mountain bike.

  14. #14
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    I'm going to bet on the Packers. Any thoughts?
    Are you using this topic as a "what-if portal" for football? I didn't hear you mention that you were.


    I was thinking the Trek 850 is a mountain bike and you're saying it's got the same angles as a road bike? That'd be one odd mountain bike.
    Thats what I was trying to say all this time, its not a modern mountain bike. I think some of the people bombing on me don't really know which model I am addressing.

  15. #15
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    I've played around doing the conversion you want to do a couple of times. A couple of things I've learned

    1. BB height will be kinda high with 700c wheels. I kinda felt like I was on a tallbike when I rode it. Granted that might have been somewhat due to what the geometry of the frame (Kona Roast)

    2. Unless you like having your drop bars alot lower than your seat, it's a little tricky to get comfortable. On my last conversion attempt, I used an old GT quill stem that was very high rise in order to get the bars within an inch of my seat height. Normally the road bar bends wouldn't have cleared a stem like this, but since this one was steel I opened it up a bit to fit. NOT something I would recommend with an alloy stem. If you found a Nitto Periscopo or knockoff, the bars would probably install easier.

    3. For brakes, Mavic makes an adaptor that moves the canti bosses up to work for 700c wheel conversions (~$20). When I tried to use one on an old Miyata frame, I found that the slots for the adaptor to fit the existing bosses weren't wide enough. I ended up squeezing the rear triangle a touch to fit them on, but the brakes didn't quite center. (2mm off on one side)

    If you've got the parts and nothing better to do, go for it. I've tried with middling success on 3 or 4 different frames. It always feels good to do something that conventional wisdom (and some local wrenches) says won't work.

    Good Luck

  16. #16
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    I've played around doing the conversion you want to do a couple of times. A couple of things I've learned
    Thank you, bacoes for adding a real experience related to the topic

    Unless you like having your drop bars alot lower than your seat
    I have a bullhorn bar and a traditional dropbar

    I used an old GT quill stem that was very high rise in order to get the bars within an inch of my seat height.
    I have a couple of pretty old high rise stems too. I did consider this dilema.

  17. #17
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    momosgarage

    If I was looking for help, I would tone down the defensiveness.

    no one is bombing on you, I was trying to give you some REAL help but sounds like you are one of those time wasting abrasive types.

    not many folks are going to go out of their way to give you what if's with your attitude.

    Plus there is nothing else to add other than what has been posted already, I doubt anyone else really cares about what if because its not really worth it. your the only one that cares about what if cause your cheap and you are hell bent on making it work. No one else with any sense would give it another minute of thought, which is why you are the only one that cares.

    do you know how annoying it is for someone to ask for help then to receive the help and that still is not good enough.

    Jeezuz I got better things to do than waste my time with you homeboy. Have fun with your trek.

  18. #18
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    do you know how annoying it is for someone to ask for help then to receive the help and that still is not good enough.
    You started the abrasive behavior and naturally I got defensive. If you can't see it I can't help you either. I didn't require you to waste time on my "what-if" you choose to do that on your own. I am willing to forgive and forget at this point. Can we move on?

  19. #19
    gobsmacked Moderator
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    packers by 13!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    You started the abrasive behavior and naturally I got defensive. If you can't see it I can't help you either. I didn't require you to waste time on my "what-if" you choose to do that on your own. I am willing to forgive and forget at this point. Can we move on?

    what exactly is there to forgive and forget about?

    I gave you help and you are acting all defensive about it. you were asking for more what ifs and I kindly told you I dont have the energy for more and you got your panties in a bunch over it acting like I was trying to start a flame war.............which I was not.

    looks like you misunderstood.

    better check yo-self before you wreck yo-self fool!

    anyway good luck with your project your gonna need it.

  21. #21
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    anyway good luck with your project your gonna need it.
    I am using this as a "What-if Portal". Don't need to get lucky on something that hasn't happened and likely won't happen. I understand that you don't like my thread, so please move on. I won't hold a grudge.

  22. #22
    Humanoid Lobster
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    For my part, I would just say that every time I've ever tried a franken-bike it ends up languishing. Either I don't finish it because it needs some weird parts, or once built it's just too peculiar to ride more than a time or two. I've not studied your frame specs, nor will I (nothing personal, just not interesting enough to me.) If it's interesting enough to you I say go for it though.

    I've learned a lot from weird projects over the years. Some of it was stuff the other people watching were telling me from the start .... but ... sometimes you just gotta do it.
    Don't call it a gooseneck.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    I am using this as a "What-if Portal". Don't need to get lucky on something that hasn't happened and likely won't happen. I understand that you don't like my thread, so please move on. I won't hold a grudge.

    your thread is fine

    its your attitude that needs to mellow a tad.

    Plus your not making a case for yourself admitting that your wasting everyones time with something that wont likely happen.

    Jak0zilla has the right idea, if you want to learn something try doing it yourself then you will see firsthand that its not really worth it. Its the only way I ever learned anything.

  24. #24
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    It seems to me he became defensive when answers started to become antagonistic. I believe he was just looking for solid answers to his queries...but I've been wrong here before.

    carry on Momo....

  25. #25
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    Because of the increased trail dimension and the higher BB it will handle like ****. Trust me.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

    Want:
    650B rims or wheel set. 80's vintage 32 or 36 x 135mm

  26. #26
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    Your quest will end up with an exceptionally heavy Pseudo CX bike that will ride badly - if that's what you're looking for, go for it.

    Chainstay length and BB height is half of what makes a CX bike a CX bike. If you change those things, it ceases to be a CX bike, and becomes a bike that does nothing well.

    What you're looking to do will result in a bike that does nothing well.

    Let me say it again - you're asking for advice, many here are advising you against this - if you're not happy with the answers, don't ask for honest, experienced opinions.

    If you want to do it and figure it out for yourself, do it. That's how we all learned. It will make a bike that does nothing well.

    If you need clarification, re-read everything everybody already said. There's nothing left to add.

  27. #27
    251
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    FYI, a typical 700c cross (or road) tire will have an O.D. the same as or close to a typical 26" MTB tire. While the BB height on this frame might be different that whatever the stylish BB height for a CX bike is these days, switching from 26" to 700c wheels isn't going to make any significant change to the BB height.

    I'd stick with 26" wheels for the sake of simplicity and cost. Also, I have lots of parts from Pauls, including a set of Motolites, and they're nice brakes but not worth the price.
    Dave

  28. #28
    illuminaughty
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff
    Because of the increased trail dimension and the higher BB it will handle like ****. Trust me.
    Isn't trail dimension determined by fork leg design (straight/curved), crown offset and degree angle of the steertube? If indeed there is negligable difference between the diameter of a "typical" MTB tire and a CX tire, then the height of the bike would not change, the wheelbase of the bike would remain constant and the axle/pivot is still and always will be a 90 degree angle above the tire/surface contact area. If none of those change why would handling differ?

    http://www.seegercycle.com/rake-and-trail.aspx

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by da'HOOV
    Isn't trail dimension determined by fork leg design (straight/curved), crown offset and degree angle of the steertube? If indeed there is negligable difference between the diameter of a "typical" MTB tire and a CX tire, then the height of the bike would not change, the wheelbase of the bike would remain constant and the axle/pivot is still and always will be a 90 degree angle above the tire/surface contact area. If none of those change why would handling differ?

    http://www.seegercycle.com/rake-and-trail.aspx
    That's true Stan if you are sticking with skinny tires. If nothing changes then nothing changes. I'm one to stuff the largest rubber possible on most bikes though so that gets thrown out the window the second I start any Frankenbike project.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

    Want:
    650B rims or wheel set. 80's vintage 32 or 36 x 135mm

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by da'HOOV
    Isn't trail dimension determined by fork leg design (straight/curved), crown offset and degree angle of the steertube?
    Straight or curved blades have nothing to do with trail. It's fork offset measured at the axle, head angle and the height of the wheel. A taller wheel increases trail. And if you use a narrow 700c tire it won't be a whole lot different than the 26 x 2 mtb tire.

    Maybe he could post a link to the bike he has since I'm curious... I always thought the 850 was a mountain bike.

  31. #31
    illuminaughty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    Straight or curved blades have nothing to do with trail. It's fork offset measured at the axle, head angle and the height of the wheel. A taller wheel increases trail. And if you use a narrow 700c tire it won't be a whole lot different than the 26 x 2 mtb tire.

    Maybe he could post a link to the bike he has since I'm curious... I always thought the 850 was a mountain bike.
    Interesting topic.......I meant if you went from a strait blade fork to a curved blade fork with the crown being the same, the curved blades would increase trail..yes/no? And if a wheel/tire combo is say 3/4" taller would that change trail dramatically? How much difference before you would noticably feel a difference?

  32. #32
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    http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Trek-850...#ht_1892wt_907

    OMG its vintage!

    Vintage Trek 850 1983 Black Red 19.75" Mountain Bike
    Item condition: --
    Time left: 2d 05h (Jan 27, 201114:14:13 PST)
    Price: US $599.00

    I think thats a tad high price wise


  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by da'HOOV
    It seems to me he became defensive when answers started to become antagonistic. I believe he was just looking for solid answers to his queries...but I've been wrong here before.

    carry on Momo....
    I think the frustration several people are feeling here, is Momo's MO.

    Ask a question over and over until people tell him what he wants to hear. It gets irritating.
    -eric-

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    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  34. #34
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    I think the frustration several people are feeling here, is Momo's MO.

    Ask a question over and over until people tell him what he wants to hear. It gets irritating.
    I find it fascinating that some folks on MTBR think that eliciting "more responses" is the same as "looking for responses that one wants to hear only". Let me clue you in, they are NOT the same. If you think this post is irritating, I recommend that you and others that feel the same way ignore my threads and move on to topics that you are interested in. Pretty simple solution that will save you some time and grief. No one forced you to surmise my "MO", you did that on your own.

    Interesting topic.......I meant if you went from a strait blade fork to a curved blade fork with the crown being the same, the curved blades would increase trail..yes/no? And if a wheel/tire combo is say 3/4" taller would that change trail dramatically? How much difference before you would noticably feel a difference?
    Can we keep this part of the discussion going, please?
    Last edited by momosgarage; 01-25-2011 at 02:16 PM.

  35. #35
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    Ok stud.
    -eric-

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by da'HOOV
    Interesting topic.......I meant if you went from a strait blade fork to a curved blade fork with the crown being the same, the curved blades would increase trail..yes/no? And if a wheel/tire combo is say 3/4" taller would that change trail dramatically? How much difference before you would noticably feel a difference?

    there are several ways to arrive at a given offset and how you get there doesn't affect trail.

    <img src="http://si6.mtb-news.de/fotos/data/511/15734dm-90.jpg">

    <img src="http://cycleandstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/backwards-fork.jpg">

  37. #37
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    here is a what if scenario for ya momo.

    what if you try it yourself now that you have sufficient info to start the project and then let us know what your findings are, what snags you run into, how you overcame them etc....

    that might make it a bit more interesting. hell, maybe you could even post a picture of the bike and the parts you have to work with.

  38. #38
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    here is a what if scenario for ya momo.
    Williwoods please stop trying to incite conflict. I understand that you do not like this post, nor the reasoning behind it. Thats fine, please feel free to exit the conversation and spare yourself the grief of having to follow the thread. Its ok for you to look the other way and pretend you never contributed to the thread. Your original points and tips have been noted. I appreciate and look foward to your forthcoming silence on this matter.

    lets get back to the last point:

    I meant if you went from a strait blade fork to a curved blade fork with the crown being the same, the curved blades would increase trail..yes/no? And if a wheel/tire combo is say 3/4" taller would that change trail dramatically? How much difference before you would noticably feel a difference?

  39. #39
    velocipede technician
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    looking for 20-21" P team

  40. #40
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    Momo,

    if you're planning on using something like a 700x35 Cx tire, it will have an OD about 1 inch larger than a 26x2.1. So it brings up the BB about a half inch. A smaller road tire would result in a much smaller change.

    The only real challenge is getting the brakes to work. But others have mentioned solutions to that.

    Other than that, there are plenty of threads here on drop bar mtbs. So you're not doing anything there that hasn't been done.

    I have to say I'm also a bit surprised by the responses here. What you're doing isn't all that crazy. You're just building a drop-bar mtb with skinnier tires. If you wanted to competitively race CX (I don't recall that being mentioned), you'd be better off with a CX frame, but for just a "cross-purpose" bike, you're fine.

    I think it's actually more wrong to put small 26" slicks on an mtb. Then you end up dropping the BB and reducing the tire diameter quite a bit. Plus I just hate slicks on mtbs.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  41. #41
    John Galt
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    I have a bullhorn bar and a traditional dropbar
    I have considered trying my hand at CX and using my 1993 Diamondback Overdrive, which is a 700C mountain bike. It came stock with bullhorn bars (Zoom Brahma). With a little research, I found that, in most cases, you cannot use bar ends or bullhorn bars in CX. You may want to confirm that's the case in your area before using those...

    Edit: I found a link:

    http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=1144

    I have no idea whether the people running your races will know you aren't supposed to have bullhorns, but it's probably not worth the risk.

  42. #42
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    I think it's actually more wrong to put small 26" slicks on an mtb. Then you end up dropping the BB and reducing the tire diameter quite a bit.
    Thanks for bringing this up. Although I did not physically put small slicks on the 26" rims I had, I did some measuring with the bare wheels without tires on the frame and assumed this would be the case (I had a few forks to experiment with also). After I did the same with the 700c rims I was almost certain that the BB would be at a better height with 700c rims and almost any tire configuration, rather than using 26" rims with small slicks.

    If you wanted to competitively race CX (I don't recall that being mentioned), you'd be better off with a CX frame, but for just a "cross-purpose" bike, you're fine.
    You are correct, I will not be racing. But I did want to try and keep the build CX rules legal. Thanks cegrover for the headup on the bullhorns.

  43. #43
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    I think we could safely say this one would probably rank in the top 5 of all-time dumb threads on this board.

    By the way, where's Kyle been?

  44. #44
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    It's his birthday soon.

  45. #45
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    I think we could safely say this one would probably rank in the top 5 of all-time dumb threads on this board.
    How am I supposed to know that? I have the parts and had an idea. It may not be a good one, but thats what FORUMS are for. I ask questions. I guess some don't like the questions I ask. It is nice to hear from people who knew of such projects or tried themselves. These are the folks I prefer to hear from. I guess on MTBR there are dumb questions because EVERYTHING is "old hat" for some long time memners here.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed

    By the way, where's Kyle been?
    that's one for the "where the fcuk portal"
    looking for 20-21" P team

  47. #47
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    Where is that? Is that in the "wikipedia style" utopia?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    Williwoods please stop trying to incite conflict. I understand that you do not like this post, nor the reasoning behind it. Thats fine, please feel free to exit the conversation and spare yourself the grief of having to follow the thread. Its ok for you to look the other way and pretend you never contributed to the thread. Your original points and tips have been noted. I appreciate and look foward to your forthcoming silence on this matter.

    lets get back to the last point:

    He's not trying to incite conflict. He's telling you to get off the computer and get to work.
    -eric-

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  49. #49
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    This memner is pretty bored with this thread.
    Somec is like the digital Zunow
    And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5h3y0a9AU

  50. #50
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    just put some schwalbe cx pro 26s on the freaking thing, and spend the rest of the money and time getting thicker skin.

  51. #51
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    It would be more in the spirit of the project to glue some knobs from a 26" onto a 700c road tire.

    Can we talk about how big they'd need to be to affect the handling? No flames please, just hard science.
    Don't call it a gooseneck.

  52. #52
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    Where is that? Is that in the "wikipedia style" utopia?
    Thanks for taking a look at my other threads on MTBR. My opinion still stands. The attitude of members here have a lot in common with the horde of jerks that edit frequently on wikipedia. Those are that facts as I see them, sorry you don't like or understand the analogy. Your above comment only reinforces my observation.

    So, if you don't understand what I mean, here is a blog entry with a basic overview of why wikipedia sucks. It will also illustrate why I feel MTBR has members acting in the same manner as wikipedia editors and admins:

    http://deathgleaner.wordpress.com/20...dministrators/

    If you don't like it or do not agree fine, but MTBR jerks are like Wikipedia jerks. They may as well be the same kind of person as far as I am concerned

    He's not trying to incite conflict. He's telling you to get off the computer and get to work.
    You're right, I forgot the message boards don't respond to my questions instantly. I was just sitting here waiting for responses before I started any wrenching at all.

    Thanks for the hot tip , however, I am pretty sure I can do both at the same time.

    Can we talk about how big they'd need to be to affect the handling? No flames please, just hard science.
    Yes please, lets go in this direction.
    Last edited by momosgarage; 01-26-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike
    packers by 13!
    Not a chance .

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    Thanks for taking a look at my other threads on MTBR. My opinion still stands. The attitude of members here have a lot in common with the horde of jerks that edit frequently on wikipedia. Those are that facts as I see them, sorry you don't like or understand the analogy. Your above comment only reinforces my observation.

    So, if you don't understand what I mean, here is a blog entry with a basic overview of why wikipedia sucks. It will also illustrate why I feel MTBR has members acting in the same manner as wikipedia editors and admins:

    If you don't like it or do not agree fine, but MTBR jerks are like Wikipedia jerks. They may as well be the same kind of person as far as I am concerned



    You're right, I forgot the message boards don't respond to my questions instantly. I was just sitting here waiting for responses before I started any wrenching at all.


    Seems to me like you're the one with the problem more than we are. If you don't like the info being given or the way people are responding to you....you could leave. Or ignore us. Or get thicker skin.
    -eric-

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  55. #55
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    Fred, yes! Go Aaron!

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike
    Fred, yes! Go Aaron!
    Gag me!
    *** --- *** --- ***

  57. #57
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    Seems to me like you're the one with the problem more than we are. If you don't like the info being given or the way people are responding to you....you could leave. Or ignore us. Or get thicker skin.
    I asked about a Trek 850 frame and 700c tires, but I see out of 55 replies, 20 don't have ANYTHING to do with the question.

    6 non sequiturs from girlonbike

    4 non sequiturs from Williwoods

    4 non sequiturs from rumpfy

    2 non sequiturs from hollister

    GET A LIFE AND REPLY TO POSTS THAT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN!!!

    Can we talk about how big they'd need to be to affect the handling? No flames please, just hard science.
    PLEASE LETS GO IN THIS DIRECTION OF DISCUSSION.

  58. #58
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    As a Niner fan I have to be pulling for the Steelers.

  59. #59
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    Thoughtful analysis. You should use 26" wheels. How's that? On point?

    Well, I would too except I'm not a big Ben fan.

  60. #60
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    Thoughtful analysis. You should use 26" wheels. How's that? On point?

    Well, I would too except I'm not a big Ben fan.
    7 non sequiturs from girlonbike

    As you continue to demonstrate, the attitudes of members here have a lot in common with the horde of jerks that edit frequently on wikipedia. Your continued commentary only reinforces my observations. My opinion and provided evidence still stands and only grows stonger with each antagonistic reply.

    To all those who hate my post, please find other theards that you like and are interetsed in. You have made your points clear and I don't see any further reason for you to persists. Lets move on.

    No flames please, just hard science.

  61. #61
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    On Point:
    The designers at Trek didn't put this much thought into the 850.
    Its a B quality bike.
    Frankenbike it and be done please.
    *** --- *** --- ***

  62. #62
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    Have you been evaluated for Asperger Syndrome yet?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike
    Have you been evaluated for Asperger Syndrome yet?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
    Again? How many exchanges are we going to have regarding your aggressive comments and inability to focus on the topic?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_confusion

    To all those who hate my post, please find other theards that you like and are interetsed in. You have made your points clear and I don't see any further reason for you to persists. Lets move on.

  64. #64
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    I like this thread. thank you for that. We should totally move on. What do you think? Any conclusions yet? Certainly, a sharp engineer like you must have calculated all this out by now. Please share.

    It's great that you quote from wikipedia and scorn it at the same time.

  65. #65
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    It's great that you quote from wikipedia and scorn it at the same time.
    Just following your reference source. I wouldn't want to confuse you with a reference source that you were not familiar with. I made the wiki reference for your sake only, to keep the confusion level to a minimum.

    The designers at Trek didn't put this much thought into the 850.
    Its a B quality bike.
    Frankenbike it and be done
    I have the chromoly version that shared the same geometry as the 990, 970 and 950 of the same era. The only difference between the 850 frame I have and the higher models is that it is not triple butted. Its the same double butted chromoly frame that the 930 and 920 had in the same era.
    Last edited by momosgarage; 01-26-2011 at 10:41 AM.

  66. #66
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    I dont think the wheel size will noticably affect handling for you. Just put your assemblage of parts together into a "cross" bike and I'm sure you will end up with exactly what you want.
    Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit
    because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.
    — Tacitus

  67. #67
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    I dont think the wheel size will noticably affect handling for you. Just put your assemblage of parts together into a "cross" bike and I'm sure you will end up with exactly what you want
    I didn't think it would either because I will not be using it competitively. As for the climbing issue, what would likey cause what was brought up earlier? Is it the rear cassette being a mountain cassette? Or does it have to do with the crank being a road crank? Or a combo of them both? I don't have to use the road crank, I just have a couple.

  68. #68
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    Don't call it a gooseneck.

  69. #69
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    hey momo thats not really fair to completely discount my responses, I actually tried giving you real information.

    lets see some pics of what you have to work with.

  70. #70
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    hey momo thats not really fair to completely discount my responses, I actually tried giving you real information.
    4 non sequiturs from Williwoods
    I didn't count every post you made, just the ones I thought fell into the antagonistic "band wagon". I hope we can get past this and keep the discussion productive.

    lets see some pics of what you have to work with.
    I'll try to post a pic of the frame. Its definately in the same generation as the pic posted by Jak0zilla. Maybe even the same year. My frame is either a 19.5 or 18 size. I also have what appears to be a hybrid fork for 700c rims that is also chromoly made by Tange.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    I'll try to post a pic of the frame. Its definately in the same generation as the pic posted by Jak0zilla. Maybe even the same year. My frame is an 19.5 or 18 size. I also have what appears to be a hybrid fork for 700c rims that is also chromoly.
    That sounds promising. Looking forward to pictures.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    To all those who hate my post, please find other theards that you like and are interetsed in. You have made your points clear and I don't see any further reason for you to persists. Lets move on.

    I love it when posters do this: 'Lets move on'.

    Fine. Go work on your bike. Stop replying to the mean people posts you're paying so close attention to, get off wikipedia, go wrench.
    -eric-

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    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  73. #73
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    I love it when posters do this: 'Lets move on'.

    Fine. Go work on your bike. Stop replying to the mean people posts you're paying so close attention to, get off wikipedia, go wrench.
    Your sentence makes no sense. Its a message board, we are working with "pony express" time between replies. You have no idea whether I am woking on the project or not. I already addressed this line of thinking the first time you made a comment. Feel free to re-read what I said to you the first time. I hope it sticks this time.

    You're right, I forgot the message boards don't respond to my questions instantly. I was just sitting here waiting for responses before I started any wrenching at all.

    Thanks for the hot tip, however, I am pretty sure I can do both at the same time.
    Rumpfy, this part of the discussion, which you are obviously heavily invested in, is done. Find something else to do.

  74. #74
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    I'm really looking forward to the frame pics!!!!!!!!!!

    Edit: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    Rumpfy, this part of the discussion, which you are obviously heavily invested in, is done. Find something else to do.

    I found a Trek 850 and converted it into a 700c CX bike while you were makin' short work of all the haters in this forum.
    -eric-

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    I found a Trek 850 and converted it into a 700c CX bike while you were makin' short work of all the haters in this forum.

    You need some bullhorn bars for the local CX races? I might have some.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    You need some bullhorn bars for the local CX races? I might have some.
    Only if they're super narrow.
    -eric-

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    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  78. #78
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    Momosgarage - Many of us have 20+ bike mechanic experience and actually work in the industry - our advice is worth considering.

    With that, you are now join the lucky few dumasses who have clawed their way onto my Ignore list - you will now have to go without 23+ years of knowledge.

    Good luck with your crappy project that you'll probably never list a wrench to anyways, because you're more interested in the theory than doing the damned thing.

  79. #79
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    With that, you are now join the lucky few dumasses who have clawed their way onto my Ignore list - you will now have to go without 23+ years of knowledge.

    Good luck with your crappy project that you'll probably never list a wrench to anyways, because you're more interested in the theory than doing the damned thing.
    Boy was that uncalled for. I don't see why you need to take this step. Have we EVER had any kind of exchange on this message board? You sound crazy with this out of the blue stance. I have no idea what set you off.

    Which bring me to my next point.

    So what, you have 20+ years of "bike" wrenching experience. So do 20 other guys in my neighborhood working as independents or for bike shops. While I do admire that you have put real time into the learning the profession, your advice (if any was given) would not be that unique in the grand scheme of things. You are a bike mechanic, not a nuclear physicist. I don't see why losing your "experience" in the form of forum posts, somehow prevents me from learning about anything you could have taught. Your skillset takes time to develop, but is not rare nor unique. Essentially it would be nice to hear from you, but still not essential. Have you helped me yet? I don't recall that you have in the past, so in reality I can't lose something I never had to begin with.

    Also, lets say you are right and I NEED your contributions in the form of posts, what kind of unique project would I have to be involved in that would REQUIRE you specifically? I don't think that is likley to happen, so the more likely case is I can still access your replies to other people. So I can't really lose. Your being simple and narrow minded, ever heard of a sock-puppet?

    GET OVER YOURSELF, YOU ARE A BIKE MECHANIC.

    Yes, I do like talking about "theory" as you put it. So what? This is a forum/message board, not a workshop with real money at stake. Do you live in Candyland? If this post is a waste of your time, ignore it. I guess I am somehow forcing all the unwilling posters to continue to contribute to this thread unwillingly.

    While I am at it, you may as well unwillingly send me some money too.
    Last edited by momosgarage; 01-26-2011 at 02:53 PM.

  80. #80
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    Hey Momo are you this smooth in person or is it only the lucky few of us on the netz that get subjected to your "personality"?

    now where are those f' ing pics you promised us.

    this thread is useless without them.

    I dont even believe you have a bike.

    Pics or it didnt happen, son.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    Boy was that uncalled for. I don't see why you need to take this step. Have we EVER had any kind of exchange on this message board? You sound crazy with this out of the blue stance. I have no idea what set you off.

    Which bring me to my next point.

    So what, you have 20+ years of "bike" wrenching experience. So do 20 other guys in my neighborhood working as independents or for bike shops. While I do admire that you have put real time into the learning the profession, your advice (if any was given) would not be that unique in the grand scheme of things. You are a bike mechanic, not a nuclear physicist. I don't see why losing your "experience" in the form of forum posts, somehow prevents me from learning about anything you could have taught. Your skillset takes time to develop, but is not rare nor unique. Essentially it would be nice to hear from you, but still not essential. Have you helped me yet? I don't recall that you have in the past, so in reality I can't lose something I never had to begin with.

    GET OVER YOURSELF, YOU ARE A BIKE MECHANIC.

    Yes, I do like talking about "theory" as you put it. So what? This is a forum/message board, not a workshop with real money at stake. Do you live in Candyland? If this post is a waste of your time, ignore it. I guess I am somehow forcing all the unwilling posters to continue to contribute to this thread unwillingly.

    While I am at it, you may as well unwillingly send me some money too.

    I didn't read your reply, but Rich's was funny!
    -eric-

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    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  82. #82
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    I didn't read your reply, but Rich's was funny!
    I haven't made any comments to this person. Whats funny about being crazy and lashing out at someone whom they have never had an interaction with. Read my post and you might learn something about folks who are simply big fish in small ponds.

    Hey Momo are you this smooth in person or is it only the lucky few of us on the netz that get subjected to your "personality"?
    Are you this antagonistic in real life? Seems like we both have a problem by your persepective.

    now where are those f' ing pics you promised us.
    That was a few hours ago. Are you giving some kind of deadline? I'll get to it when I get home and have time.

    Am I talking to a bunch of 10 year olds on the internet after school. What is this? Get back to the friggin topic.

  83. #83
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    wow, this is still going! yessss!!!

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    I didn't read your reply
    I didn't read it either. I've been coughing up phlegm for like 2 hours.


    update: I just skimmed it. My conclusion: Hoey said he thought that a better word list and a smarter program could get to ten times his 540-word palindrome, using only noun phrases with indefinite articles. I'm pretty sure that will never happen. The problem is a dirth of "a"s. According to Hoey's rules, every phrase must start with the letter "a". That means that either the rest of the word must be an exact reverse of another word (and we know there are 1100 of these) or the phrase must have another "a" in it somewhere, and it must be matched by two or more other phrases. Phrases such as "a man", "a plan" and "a canal" work well because they contain multiple "a"s. Now consider a phrase such as "a biologist". If that appears in the palindrome, then somewhere else the letters "tsigoloib" must appear. But note that those letters must all appear in one word/phrase, because there is no "a", and we only get word boundries at "a"s. And of course, there is no single word that contain those letters. In general, take a word (such as "an asparagus" or "a biologist"), split it into components around the "a"s (yielding ["n", "sp", "r", "gus"] and ["biologist"]). Collect the set of all such segments, from all the phrases in the dictionary. Now go back through the dictionary, and for each word, see if the reverse of each of its components is in this set. So "an asparagus" is good, because its reversed components all appear in the set: "n" appears in many places (including "an asparagus" itself), "ps" appears as a component in "a psalm", "r" appears in many places (such as "a karat"), and "sug" appears in "a sugar". On the other hand, "a biologist" is no good, because the component "tsigoloib" does not appear.

    so in conclusion, I gotta go make my lunch for tomorrow.
    looking for 20-21" P team

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    2 non sequiturs from hollister

    GET A LIFE AND REPLY TO POSTS THAT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN!!!
    3

    TRAIN WRECKS ARE FASCINATING
    looking for 20-21" P team

  86. #86
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    4 non sequiturs from hollister

    If this post is a waste of your time, ignore it.

    MTBR is mod-less wild west, where any topic can be derailed by antagonistic jerks, hippies and hipsters.

  87. #87
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    mock up

    Sorry, its a little rough.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails turn an old trek 850 into cyclocross bike-dsc00598.jpg  


  88. #88
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    5

    You won't hear about this in the media, but our attempts to bring Momo s Garage to justice have so far served only as a divertissement for Momo and his serfs. Before examining the present situation, however, it is important that I tamp down any doubts that it's likely that any day now Momo will use organized violence to suppress opposition if we don't stop him now. Do you understand the implications of what I have been telling you? Are you awake? Then you probably realize that he demands that we make a choice. Either we let him sensationalize all of the issues or he'll pander to our worst fears. This "choice" exemplifies what is commonly known as a "false dichotomy" or "the fallacy of the excluded middle" because it denies other alternatives, such as that Momo is obviously under the influence of LSD or some other hallucinogenic. Why else would he insist that anyone who dares to oust him and his polyloquent buddies from anywhere we find them creating massive civil unrest can expect to suffer hair loss and tooth decay as a result?

    I was entirely gobsmacked the first time I saw Momo increasing society's cycle of hostility and violence. Since then, I've seen him do that so many times that I hardly bat an eyelid when someone tells me that Momo must have recently made a huge withdrawal from the First National Bank of Lies. How else could he manage to tell us that I'm some sort of cully who can be duped into believing that he should let what I call loquacious rapscallions serve as our overlords because "it's the right thing to do"?

    The worst classes of offensive smear merchants I've ever seen threaten, degrade, poison, bulldoze, and kill this world of ours. That said, we mustn't lose sight of who the real enemy is: Momo s Garage and his sick advocates. Although I agree with those who maintain that as soon he takes us beyond the point of no return, the next thing we'll hear him say is, "Oops, made a mistake", nevertheless, I cannot agree with the subject matter and attitude that is woven into every one of his oppressive blanket statements. I doubt we could beat this into his head, but it is not news that another point worth thinking about is that it's quite a feat of hypocrisy for him to deny he wants to peddle fake fears to the public after so recently doing exactly that. What speaks volumes, though, is that I have never read anything Momo has written that I would consider wise, logical, pertinent, reasonable, or scientific. His statement that this is the best of all possible worlds and that he is the best of all possible people is no exception. What's more, I wish I didn't have to be the one to break the news that a "respected" member of his band recently said (to closely paraphrase), "Man's eternal search for Truth is a challenge to be avoided at all costs". Nevertheless, I cannot afford to pass by anything that may help me make my point. So let me just state that I suppose it's predictable, though terribly sad, that besotted riffraff with stronger voices than minds would revert to repulsive behavior. But I like to face facts. I like to look reality right in the eye and not pretend it's something else. And the reality of our present situation is this: My goal is to get Momo to realize that he has let his money-grubbing feelings obscure reality. Of course, if he insists on remaining an ignorant, uninformed, and ill-informed schnorrer, that's his prerogative.

    There may be absolutely nothing we can do to prevent Momo from making good on his word to waffle on all the issues. When we compare this disturbing conclusion to the comforting picture purveyed by his lieutenants, we experience psychological stress or "cognitive dissonance". Our only recourse is to expose Momo's malversation. You should know that it's not yet illegal to make some changes here. Momo is working on that, though. I suspect that sooner or later, we'll no longer be allowed to state in public that some people I know say that Momo is gorged to the point of bursting at his groaning seams with the impudent tosh of exclusionism. Others argue that he has fundamentally miscalculated how out-of-step he is with the average person's views. At this point the distinction is largely academic given that the ostensible basis for Momo's speech codes is as phony as the loose and biased standards applied to enforce them. Why do I tell you this? Because these days, no one else has the guts to.

    In asserting that it's okay if his offhand remarks initially cause our quality of life to degrade because "sometime", "someone" will do "something" "somehow" to counteract that trend, Momo demonstrates an astounding narrowness of vision. Knowledge is the key that unlocks the shackles of bondage. That's why it's important for you to know that Momo's criticisms of my letters have never successfully disproved a single fact I ever presented. Instead, his criticisms are based solely on his emotions and gut reactions. Well, I refuse to get caught up in Momo's "I think … I believe … I feel" game. Let me end by appealing to our collective sense of humanity: Momo s Garage has an ego of galactic proportions.
    looking for 20-21" P team

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollister
    According to Hoey's rules, every phrase must start with the letter "a".
    Unless you're from Canada, where every phrase must end with an "a" .
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

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    That mock up is exactly how I perceive it, Linoleum. Momo, you should use a "beefier" seatpost for your bike though. I "sense" that you are "ill" at ease but all the "sarcasm" in the world won't "rain" on your "parade." This project has my !! In fact, I found a "trek" antelope on the dumpster just last week so I'll give it a "try" this "weekend." I'll send you my "results".

  91. #91
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  92. #92
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    There may be absolutely nothing we can do to prevent Momo from making good on his word to waffle on all the issues.
    Thanks "post-modern-hollister". Were you a rhetoric major? The time it likely took you to write that prose far excedes all the collective time I have spend posting on MTBR. I use forums as "what-if portals" and as a place for talking about "theory", as some have said. You aboviously don't like it, so take a hike and find another thread to latch onto. I didn't walk into to your shop and steal work time and clients from you. THIS IS A FORUM ON THE INTERNET, NOT YOUR REAL LIFE.

    When we compare this disturbing conclusion to the comforting picture purveyed by his lieutenants, we experience psychological stress or "cognitive dissonance".
    Maybe a Philosophy major? I am still betting on rhetoric major though. Based mostly on the prose.

    money-grubbing feelings obscure reality
    I mostly post about building used and old bikes on MTBR. Does that make me a money grubber?

    That's why it's important for you to know that Momo's criticisms of my letters have never successfully disproved a single fact I ever presented.
    How far back exactly does our feuding history go? I didn't know I had an arch-nemesis all this time on MTBR.
    Last edited by momosgarage; 01-26-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    Thanks "post-modern-hollister".
    thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week

    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    The time it likely took you to write that prose far excedes all the collective time I have spend posting on MTBR.
    wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    I use forums as "what-if portals" and as a place for talking about "theory", as some have said.
    yes. we know. but you're bad at it.


    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    You aboviously don't like it, so take a hike and find another thread to latch onto.
    eff that, your whining is hilarious

    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    I didn't walk into to your shop and steal work time and clients from you. THIS IS A FORUM ON THE INTERNET, NOT YOUR REAL LIFE.
    of course you didn't, I'd have thrown you out before it got this far
    looking for 20-21" P team

  94. #94
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    I 'm still in for the Steelers!

  95. #95
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    wrong
    So you re-ues this long winded speech a lot, fill in the blank style?

    of course you didn't, I'd have thrown you out before it got this far
    Hence.. asking on a forum. Man these concepts must be really far out for you to conceptualize.

    yes. we know. but you're bad at it.
    You're the bike mechanic, not me. I don't intend to be good at asking questions either. Thats why they are questions. Maybe in 23+ years I can build my rep up enough for the MTBR hipsters to act civil when I ask a question.

    I ask the questions I want, either people respond or they don't. But as I have found, such posts live long on past my interest. I basically post, go to bed, wait to pick a few real answers out of the minutiae and then let the thread live on as a zombie "train-wreck" (your words). It doesn't have to be this way, but I guess the community has spoken. So my methods will have to do until it changes otherwise.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollister
    You won't hear about this in the media, but our attempts to bring Momo s Garage to justice have so far served only as a divertissement for Momo and his serfs. Before examining the present situation, however, it is important that I tamp down any doubts that it's likely that any day now Momo will use organized violence to suppress opposition if we don't stop him now. Do you understand the implications of what I have been telling you? Are you awake? Then you probably realize that he demands that we make a choice. Either we let him sensationalize all of the issues or he'll pander to our worst fears...

    Holy crap! I wore out my thesaurus.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    Get back to the friggin topic.

    People generally have strong views about fork offset. The nub of what I intend to say here is that fork offset is a ubiquitious paradigm that preys on the inept, the gullible, and the vulnerable. Keep that in mind while I state the following: Fork offset can sometimes cause a guy to feel the unfounded attacks on his character, loads of hyperbole, and fallacious information are the best way to make a point. However, I wish it would vanish into the same logistical nothingness that its arguments invariably lead to.

  98. #98
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    There are a number of things I could have chosen to write about in this post. I could have chosen to write about how I refuse to indulge momosgarage's foibles. Or I might have chosen to write something about the way that it doesn't perceive that anything is wrong with it. But, instead, I've decided to devote this entire post to explaining how failure to recognize this salient point will result in momosgarage's getting free reign to make my stomach turn. And that's why I feel compelled to say something about filthy caitiffs. Momosgarage's blackshirts believe that space gods arriving in flying saucers will save humanity from self-destruction. Although it is perhaps impossible to change the perspective of those who have such beliefs, I wish nevertheless to provide a positive, confident, and assertive vision of humanity's future and our role in it. Now that I've told you what I think, let me end this post by stating that I fully intend to search for solutions that are more creative and constructive than the typically crapulous ones championed by the worst types of voluble whiners there are. Let momosgarage tremble. And though the heavens fall, let there be justice.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by momosgarage
    I don't intend to be good at asking questions either.
    this is the only part of your post that matters to just about everyone here except for maybe stan
    looking for 20-21" P team

  100. #100
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    this is the only part of your post that matters to just about everyone here except for maybe stan
    I am obviously "not in on" what constitutes a good question, so I am not even going to try. This isn't a fraternity or secret society with funny handshakes that outsiders never get to see or understand. I ask the questions and either answers come or they don't. I have learned to live with that fact when I post on MTBR. You should just learn to steer clear of my threads to keep civility.

    There are a number of things I could have chosen to write about in this post. I could have chosen to write about how I refuse to indulge momosgarage's foibles. Or I might have chosen to write something about the way that it doesn't perceive that anything is wrong with it. But, instead, I've decided to devote this entire post to explaining how failure to recognize this salient point will result in momosgarage's getting free reign to make my stomach turn. And that's why I feel compelled to say something about filthy caitiffs. Momosgarage's blackshirts believe that space gods arriving in flying saucers will save humanity from self-destruction. Although it is perhaps impossible to change the perspective of those who have such beliefs, I wish nevertheless to provide a positive, confident, and assertive vision of humanity's future and our role in it. Now that I've told you what I think, let me end this post by stating that I fully intend to search for solutions that are more creative and constructive than the typically crapulous ones championed by the worst types of voluble whiners there are. Let momosgarage tremble. And though the heavens fall, let there be justice.
    What is this community theatre? Improv? Showtime at the Apollo?

    This thread is about bikes!

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