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  1. #501
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    Oh, maybe, but the frame would have had plenty of lateral stiffness without them, given that your are sitting on fat 30 PSI tires. A bit of spring in the frame doesn't hurt a mountain bike... I think the main values are A. Distinctive looks, and B. Impact protection (ramming big log/rock).

  2. #502
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    Oh I see.
    I was thinking about Bottombracket flexing relative to the head tube when cranking on the blasted thing going up really steep $hit, like a tree trunk!

    you know, pushing down hard on the right pedal while pulling up hard on the right handlebar...

    I guess back then no one did FEA modeling of bike frames.

  3. #503
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    Good Morning. Great Thread. I have a Raleigh "The Edge" in very good original condition for sale if anyone here is interested. Here is a link to more photos FREE eBay image gallery | JPEGbay.com. Asking $325 plus $100 shipping CONUS. Will ship internationally but buyer pays extra shipping. Thanks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Raleigh "The Edge"-raleigh-edge.jpg  


  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketJSquirrel View Post
    Oh I see.
    I was thinking about Bottombracket flexing relative to the head tube when cranking on the blasted thing going up really steep $hit, like a tree trunk!

    you know, pushing down hard on the right pedal while pulling up hard on the right handlebar...

    I guess back then no one did FEA modeling of bike frames.
    Edges were built with thick, stiff, water pipe tubing. They were on the stiff end of that era's bikes, with or without gussets. They don't flex in any way that would disturb anybody's climbing! This much I know.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeBike13 View Post
    Edges were built with thick, stiff, water pipe tubing. They were on the stiff end of that era's bikes, with or without gussets. They don't flex in any way that would disturb anybody's climbing! This much I know.
    IMHO, hardly any bike ever made will "flex in any way that would disturb anybody's climbing". Long story follows, sorry, ignore if you're pressed for time!

    Once (late 1980s) I rode with the crew of a small but influential MTB manufacturer as they took a bunch of standard models and prototypes out for a ride on the Slickrock trail (Moab UT) and other interesting "problems" near but off the main marked trail. The emphasis was on finding little sections that were hard enough to ride that you couldn't always get up/over/through them. Everyone switched bikes now and then to try to find out which models were best for which terrain. They had an extra-stiff prototype carbon-fiber frame, and a bunch of steel bikes with the typical oversized tubing of the day, which was also pretty stiff. (Too stiff for my taste, but middle of the road as lightweight MTBs went back then). I mostly stayed out of the bike swapping and just rode my own bike, which had lightweight small-diameter "road bike" tubing (basically a cyclocross frame, but with clearance for fat tires) -- very flexible.

    The founder of the company (a member of the MTB Hall of Fame) was their best rider and generally could ride sections that no one else could, except there was this one steep sandstone turtleback that I could get up, and no one else could. The Boss asked to borrow my bike, and on mine he got up it easily. We did this several times, switching bikes back and forth, and no one could get up it unless they were on my bike with the extra-flexible frame.

    My theory (and The Boss agreed) was the flex in the frame was acting as an energy "storage tank", smoothing out the power output to the rear wheel between the peak-power zone of each pedal stroke and the "dead spot" in each stroke where you can't get much power. As you get to the dead-spot, the wind-up in the frame is springing back and adding that stored energy back into your stroke.

    I think that happens in a similarly beneficial way on less strenuous climbs and maybe even during hard pedaling on the level too, only it's not so obvious as it was on that one climb up that turtleback, where you either made it or you didn't.

    The extra-stiff carbon fiber bike turned out to be everyone's least favorite that day, and that company ended up not releasing a production bike based on the prototype.

    Due to my feeling that frame flex makes me faster, I have always avoided stiff frames, despite the fact that I am large and heavy and pretty fast-twitch oriented. Most of my wins in my undistinguished amateur racing career came in sprints, so if I can ride on flexy frames, I think most anyone can. It is my belief (though I can't see how to prove it) that there is no benefit to a stiff frame, they just slow you down.

    It may well be that *using* the flex and benefiting from it requires some skill or adaptation. In other words a stiff frame may be best for a beginner who hasn't learned to make use of frame flex in his/her pedal stroke. But other than that, stiffness is a downside, that bike makers have tried to make into a selling point, because they don't know how to make flexy frames that are still strong enough to last.

    "The Boss" mentioned above admitted to me he'd love to make frames like mine, but with the thin small-diameter tubing, they'd come back for warranty replacement too often, which would take away from their bottom line. So they had to make them stiffer than they would like, as an unintended consequence of making them strong enough.

    I realize this is an unpopular opinion, and most people think a stiff frame is faster somehow. I just think most people are mistaken. Maybe this is arrogant of me, but I'd say real arrogance is thinking you need a stiffer frame than say Greg Lemond or Sean Kelly. Yes, I am old and mostly a roadie, so most of my reference points are road racers from a bygone era. Still, you must have heard of Lemond. You think you're stronger than him? He raced and won (Tour de France, World Championships etc.) on incredibly flexible frames. So did Kelly, and many others I could name. I know that doesn't prove anything, but the stiffness advocates haven't proved anything either. They imply stiffer is always better as if it's obvious, and never offer any evidence. (Not talking about anyone in this thread. This is not a personal attack!)

    Some people talk about the comfort advantage from frame flex, but I think that’s over-rated. Even flexy frames don’t attenuate bumps as much as tires, padded saddles and handlebar tape do, so the extra cush from a flexy frame might be lost in the noise. But the “wind-up” and energy-storage you get from frame flex isn’t easily gotten in any other parts of the bike. I think the frame needs to “give” with each stroke to best match the human motor.

    -MB

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
    IMHO,
    -MB
    I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion. And I might add, a well written piece. Reminds me of Olsen's writing back in the day. No Offense John, but sort of not actually factual. Sort of whimsical and ....what's the word I'm looking for?????

    Quote Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
    Once (late 1980s) I rode with the crew of a small but influential MTB manufacturer ....
    -MB
    Is it true you guys used to drop acid back then?

    OK. Just kidding. really...

    So I guess I'm puzzled by several things.

    1) Isn't climbing dominated by other physical factors such as but not limited to the geometry of the bike before frame flex would ever be an effect?

    2) I certainly understand the idea of pushing down on the pedal and then because of the lever arm offset of the bottom bracket there are three components to the Force vector of which one component pushes the bottom bracket side ways producing lateral flex (sideways movement) of the bottom bracket relative to the wheel axes on any bike frame,

    3) I certainly understand the idea that a bike frame is a spring, and the spring constant is definitely smaller in the lateral direction versus the vertical direction or the fore-aft direction, and therefore will flex easier in that direction, AND I understand that a spring will have a natural frequency at which it will resonate,

    4) but what I don't understand is how the stored energy in the frame happens to know how to transfer back from the lateral direction into a vertical direction and only in the direction of pedals going downward.
    I don't get it.

    If all what you say is true, then my Pug which flexes like a wet noodle and has 4" wide rear tire, will out climb my 1996 C'dale Beast of the East with it's measly little 2.25" rear tire.

    But is doesn't.

    It won't out climb the stinking old Pu$$ie Pink Edge with it's puny 24"x2.00" tire.

    I just don't understand your thought process, or those of "the Boss", unless mind altering drugs were involved.

    And You don't have to be shy, You can say who "the Boss" is. He probably would deny what you have stated anyway.


    I can't help it:
    And who the F(@#$& is Lemond. What mountain bike climbing race did he ever win? Comparing the Tour de France to climbing up a steep slippery mountain? WTF? What drugs do they have you one now?

    (And I apologize for any offensive comments that I may have made?)
    "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." -Mark Twain

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaris View Post
    1) Isn't climbing dominated by other physical factors such as but not limited to the geometry of the bike before frame flex would ever be an effect?
    Could you rephrase the question? It sounds like you're saying flex can't be a factor because other factors got there first. If you're just saying it's a less important factor than geometry then I might tend to agree, if you are talking largely different frame geometries, but the bikes in my anecdote were very similar, with normal NORBA-XC geo of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by abaris View Post
    4) but what I don't understand is how the stored energy in the frame happens to know how to transfer back from the lateral direction into a vertical direction and only in the direction of pedals going downward.
    I don't get it.
    Many doubters over the years (decades really) have responded to my "flex is good" argument by saying they can't imagine a mechanism by which the stored energy is returned in a useful way. This is due to a lack of imagination. Others, smarter than you or I, have stated more or less that the energy has to be returned usefully because how could it NOT? The stored energy in a flexy frame is not insignificant, so if it were being wasted, then flexy frames would be seen to be slower, and they have not. In fact there's a lot of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. For example the fact that before Klein/Cannondale and then carpet fiber, virtually all racing bikes were more flexible than cheap gaspipe frames. Racers were clamoring for the most flexible bikes they could get (though they might not have known that the frames they were clamoring for were the flexiest).

    On the old "Hardcore Bicycle Science" mailing list started by Jim Papadopoulos and then later curated by Sheldon Brown, some of our best bicycling scientists debated the subject and there was quite a lot of support for the idea that frame stored energy was returned usefully as propulsion. I might even call it a consensus. Certainly everyone agreed that energy was going somewhere (look up the First Law of Thermodynamics if you doubt that), and no one proposed any other serious candidate for where *else* it could be going. For instance, flexible frames don't heat up measurably on a climb.

    Quote Originally Posted by abaris View Post
    And who the F(@#$& is Lemond. What mountain bike climbing race did he ever win? Comparing the Tour de France to climbing up a steep slippery mountain?
    Maybe you're right and pedaling is fundamentally different on and off-road. Me, I think the same laws of physics apply. BTW my experience is not limited to the road. My very first NORBA race, I entered as a Pro because in the early days of NORBA they let you just say you were a pro and issued a license on the spot. I won the race overall. That was the only Pro race I ever won, but I did race expert class for a few years and won once or twice there too. I competed in a dozen or so Trials meets organized by John Olsen (very fun, thanks again John, eternally grateful) and built myself a custom trials/trails bike even before I made myself an XC-oriented bike, so trials pre-dates racing, for me.

    Not that knowing how to ride validates my crazy theories on frame flex -- good riders say the stupidest things sometimes! I just wanted to point out this isn't all armchair theorizing.

    This debate will rage forever because no one has come up with an experiment that could truly answer the question. I just like to remind people that there is a debate. Too often, the "stiff is good" camp acts like the question is settled. This is mostly due to ignorance. It seems to me, from my discussions with probably hundreds of people over the last 40 years or so, that the more a bicycle scientist has thought about the question, the more likely he/she is to agree that at least some flex is good for pedaling efficiency, and stored energy is probably not wasted to any significant degree.

    -MB

  8. #508
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    Raleigh "The Edge"

    Great.
    Patent the freaking thing and make some freaking money.




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  9. #509
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    It seems like smart person like yourself can calculate the energy based frame deflection data taken with the published results of the Rinard Frame Deflection Test as described in the Sheldon Brown page

    The Rinard Frame Deflection Test

    I'll bet John Olsen, being an accomplished mechanical engineer, could help you out with that.

    Then calculate the energy that you use when pedaling up an incline:

    Pedal power | Sciencelearn Hub

    Now simply compare the two and put an end to all this pointless dribble.
    "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." -Mark Twain

  10. #510
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    There's a few threads on here where that "summit" was discussed. Tons of great photos. Chuck Ibis. Tom Ritchey. Otis Guy etc.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

    Want:
    650B rims or wheel set. 80's vintage 32 or 36 x 135mm

  11. #511
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    Nah, I'm not that smart, don't know how to do what you're describing. I was a bike frame builder for over 20 years, but never worked as an engineer. My gut tells me it's not that easy though, or one of the really smart guys who have asked these questions, like Damon Rinard, Jim Papadopoulos, Jobst Brandt or John Olsen would have done the calculation by now. I don't think any of those guys thought it was pointless either. I think it's super interesting, you don't?

    The debate on the old Hardcore Bicycle Science listserv ("Hardcore BS"!) was lively, with plenty of super-smart guys weighing in, but nobody proposed any easy test or calculation that could be done to settle the issue. I wish!

    -MB

  12. #512
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    Raleigh "The Edge"

    Here's my The Edge all restored to its original glory.. The tires are original with no dry rot. Sidewalls are in excellent shape.

    Raleigh "The Edge"-imageuploadedbytapatalk1420858964.074959.jpg

    Raleigh "The Edge"-imageuploadedbytapatalk1420858982.219033.jpg

    Raleigh "The Edge"-imageuploadedbytapatalk1420859017.558924.jpg

    Raleigh "The Edge"-imageuploadedbytapatalk1420859040.658455.jpg

    Raleigh "The Edge"-imageuploadedbytapatalk1420859076.962655.jpg

    Raleigh "The Edge"-imageuploadedbytapatalk1420859122.181383.jpg

    Got it for sale if you're interested.

  13. #513
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    First Edge ride in over 20yrs!

    After 20+ yrs of wanting an Edge, I got one!
    (I think its the one that HAGASAN had available in the previous post! (the scratches seem to be identical))
    Rode it to work, neither it nor I are a speed demon but, pretty comfortable for a 7 mile ride.
    Now I need to get it into the woods!

  14. #514
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    Yep it was mine you bought!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  15. #515
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    It was very clean, easy to assemble and in great condition!
    How did you find it? Was it an Edge you have had for long?

  16. #516
    bipolar-roller
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    If anyone is interested, I came across a Raleigh Edge frame and fork today for $30 at the Reno bike project while checking out some forks. It's a 15.5" from bb to center of the tube. Rough condition though. Here is a pic. I'll be back there tomorrow after I get a few more measurements off the bike I am getting a fork for.

    Raleigh "The Edge"-image.jpg

    Raleigh "The Edge"-image.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Raleigh "The Edge"-image.jpg  

    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

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  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    If anyone is interested, I came across a Raleigh Edge frame and fork today for $30 at the Reno bike project while checking out some forks. It's a 15.5" from bb to center of the tube. Rough condition though. Here is a pic. I'll be back there tomorrow after I get a few more measurements off the bike I am getting a fork for.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I Like..
    I will PM you.


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  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaris View Post
    I Like..
    I will PM you.


    Sent from somewhere
    Well let me know because I will be at the Reno bike project this afternoon, but won't be back down to reno until next week.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

    "I only had like two winekills captain buzzcooler"

  19. #519
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    Is that a crack in the top tube near the head tube?
    "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." -Mark Twain

  20. #520
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    I acquired an Edge frameset and built a functioning bike for myself.
    However, I am having some difficulty locating a vintage front derailleur (26.8mm bottom pull) to fit my chain wheels 26/36/42.
    The "triple" cages I find aren't long enough for this old school gear spread.
    If anyone should have a part to help me out I'd appreciate it!


    10/1/15 - Found a derailleur and now my shifting is fully functional!
    Last edited by bowyer2002; 10-01-2015 at 09:58 AM.

  21. #521
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    Its been a while since I have had the Edge out for a spin. Took her out to a really tight fast trail and man...what a difference when compared to the 29er I typically ride. Ok, it seemed like a bit more pedaling involved but wow was it agile. Thought you Edge guys might appreciate a couple of shots as I loaded and was ready to head out.




    Bought the Edge new for my wife back in 1987 or 88 I can't recall anymore. She rode it maybe 4-5 times since then. I never rode it because I always felt guilty for buying her a bike I liked to ride. The good news is its in great shape and even the trials tires are still in excellent shape with no dry-rotting. I slipped on my ti railed bontrager saddle and some old clipless pedals and hit the trail. After over 25 years I don't feel as bad pulling it out for a ride from time to time!

  22. #522
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    I understand that that is an 88 frame since the U-brake is on the chainstays.
    THAT is a super clean bike! Still rolling the yellow cable housing too, cool.

  23. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowyer2002 View Post
    I understand that that is an 88 frame since the U-brake is on the chainstays.
    THAT is a super clean bike! Still rolling the yellow cable housing too, cool.
    Yes, when I was shopping and looking at the Edge the shop had two on the floor, one with the under the chainstay rear brake and one with a seat stay brake ( not a shimano U-brake but a diacompe iirc). They were a local chain of stores but those were the last of the Edge bikes in the local St.Louis area. I wanted to get the one with the seat stay brakes but when I went back the next day to buy the bike that one was gone. You snooze you lose right?

    At any rate I have had many old 88 vintage bikes with chainstay brakes and as long as you don't spend a lot of time riding in wet and muddy conditions they work fine and have a solid feel. Its a fun bike but truth be told you definitely have to do a lot more pedaling to cover ground than with a standard 26"x2 or 29er where its even more evident. For short tight trails though its still a very fun bike to ride and definitely a unique ride.

  24. #524
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    You mention STL, did you get that from The Touring Cyclist?
    I worked at a couple of their stores during college summers off for a couple of years.
    I scored the one in post #512 and now my brother is riding it in SW MO.
    They're FUN to ride but do take more effort, which can be fun but they're no commuter bike by any means!
    They wheelie like no other!

  25. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowyer2002 View Post
    You mention STL, did you get that from The Touring Cyclist?
    I worked at a couple of their stores during college summers off for a couple of years.
    I scored the one in post #512 and now my brother is riding it in SW MO.
    They're FUN to ride but do take more effort, which can be fun but they're no commuter bike by any means!
    They wheelie like no other!
    I did buy that bike at the Touring Cyclist! I bought it from the store location on St. Charles Rock Road in Bridgeton at the time. I was checking the local info and that store is the only remaining Touring Cyclist Store left open at this point. At one time I think they had 4-5 stores iirc. Small world for sure.

  26. #526
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    TC had 7 stores in their hay day.
    I worked at 3 over the years.
    Cool find, especially that your wife lets you ride 'her' Edge!

    PS if you should want to unload it, I may know a good home for it...

  27. #527
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    Hey John, Bob, been a while, glad to see we have some new edger's on the forum.

  28. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott murray View Post
    Hey John, Bob, been a while, glad to see we have some new edger's on the forum.
    Hi Scott, John.
    I thought you had fallen off a log and hurt your back!
    Hope all is well. It's snowing here so it's fat bike time.
    Cheers.
    "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." -Mark Twain

  29. #529
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    Anybody still around?

  30. #530
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    I think the Edge is dead. Although I still ride mine (once in a great while...it has a seat )

  31. #531
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    That edge I posted a few posts earlier is still around hanging on the wall at that bike project.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

    "I only had like two winekills captain buzzcooler"

  32. #532
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    I'm still lurking..

  33. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    That edge I posted a few posts earlier is still around hanging on the wall at that bike project.
    What a COOL piece of MTB history. I hope some are out on trails still.

  34. #534
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    Is this the place to discuss that bike that played guitar in U2?

  35. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by singletrackmack View Post
    That edge I posted a few posts earlier is still around hanging on the wall at that bike project.
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHun View Post
    What a COOL piece of MTB history. I hope some are out on trails still.
    Stopped by the shop today and the The Edge (is that redundant?) was gone! I asked and they said it sold a few weeks ago. Looks like there could be another out on the trails soon I hope
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.

    "I only had like two winekills captain buzzcooler"

  36. #536
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    That is cool. I do hope you guys end up seeing it out on the trails!
    2016 El Oso Grande

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