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  1. #1
    Master of the Face Plant
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    How far can you take a pre-war frame?

    Lets find out. I have been practicing brazing so this should be fun.
    Here are my plans:
    1. Sandblast off all that rust.
    2. drop some hot brass in around the joints to smooth them out.
    3. Flatten and trim the drop stand tab, drill and tap a derailler hanger.
    4. Cold set the rear to 135mm spacing, re-align the dropouts.
    5. Braze on cable guides/stops for brakes and deraillers.
    6. Braze on a disk brake adaptor on the rear.
    7. Ream and face the headtube.
    8. Powder coat.
    9. Custom Brass headtube badge.

    The build will consist of mostly parts I already have. Mavic wheels with King ISO hubs, Fox F-80 Talas fork or a Fox f-100 RLC (Depends on how slack it ends up). XT cranks, Sram X.0 rear derailler. Thomson stem. Easton Monkey bar. Hope Mono Mini brakes.
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  2. #2
    ride more
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    Awesome

  3. #3
    velocipede technician
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    this will end in blood and tears.



    but it'll be fun to watch
    looking for 20-21" P team

  4. #4
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    This one needs something like that.

    Good thoughts.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How far can you take a pre-war frame?-img_0844.jpg  


  5. #5
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    65 Typhoon

    Not pre-war.

    Nice though.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How far can you take a pre-war frame?-img_0845.jpg  


  6. #6
    Master of the Face Plant
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    I should weigh it before I sandblast it just to see how much weight it loses in rust.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts View Post
    I should weigh it before I sandblast it just to see how much weight it loses in rust.
    One of the more amusing ideas I've seen posted around here. Please do it.

  8. #8
    ong
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    How are you going to run a 1 1/8" fork in that head tube? Is it beefy enough that you're going to remove 1/16" of steel from the I.D.?

  9. #9
    ong
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    Btw, a few years back I did a pretty cute head tube badge for the girlfriend's resto-modern Ron Kitching: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hollumn...7607886141419/

    This was just done in mild steel, with 56% silver, then primed and painted.

  10. #10
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    Wow. Frames really haven't changed all that much in 100 years, have they?

  11. #11
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikemaya View Post
    Wow. Frames really haven't changed all that much in 100 years, have they?
    For cruisers, no they really have not changed much. What worked then still works now but I would say the quality has fallen off quite a bit. There are headsets available that allow you to use a 1 1/8 inch steerer in a bmx standard size headtube without boring out the headtube.
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  12. #12
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by ong View Post
    Btw, a few years back I did a pretty cute head tube badge for the girlfriend's resto-modern Ron Kitching: Jeff Makes Ron a Headtube Badge - a set on Flickr

    This was just done in mild steel, with 56% silver, then primed and painted.
    That came out nice. I like the 3d look. I did copper on my last one but this time I want to do one in brass.
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  13. #13
    ong
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    It was pretty funny sweating those tiny steel letters with my huge aircraft torch.

    Interesting about the headsets -- I had no idea! So this is a 32.5 I.D. head tube, not ISO? It will be interesting to watch your project. I hope you'll post updates. I worry a bit about the (presumably) mild steel frame with the extra leverage of a suspension fork, not to mention disk brakes, but I bet it's pretty overbuilt anyway!
    Last edited by ong; 10-24-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  14. #14
    Master of the Face Plant
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    I have had reservations about that as well but I have a 36 Mercury that I have been running a short travel Bomber on for about 2 years without issue. I have jumped it and ridden pretty hard off road. The head tube is so thick I think it will hold up. I am a little more concerned about the rear end given that the chain and seat stays are oval. I may cut out the current brace between the stays and braze in a slightly wider one after cold setting. I may also braze a brace in close to the dropouts.
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  15. #15
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    cool idea, very anxious to see how this turns out
    All vintage all the time. Nothing like a nice chromo frame with some properly adjusted cantilevers.

  16. #16
    clunker
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    The frame should be around 7 lbs bare.

    I vote for 80mm fork, mine was plenty slack with the Marz - climbing was twitchy (slack seatpost angles on these newsboy frames doesn't help either) but great fun pointed down.

    Disk in front was all I ever needed, I ran a Nexus hub with roller brake in back.

    ...strictly downhill...

  17. #17
    Gamers local 2112
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    I would not worry about the head tube, I've seen more brakes where the seat stay joins with the seat tube once you widen out the rear end. Adding some weld will help though. I've done 1000's of miles on my Schwinn (not pre-war) wearing out 3 sets of tires, yes you can go far as you want as long as you ignore those creaking sounds, well most of them anyway.

  18. #18
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    I have a 120mm fork on mine, it slacks it out nice for some downhill action.

  19. #19
    Master of the Face Plant
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    I got it back from the sandblast. It lost about 120 grams of rust but I suspect most of that was muck built up in the BB shell. It has some pitting that I have filled in with hot brass. I cut out the old fender mount/brace between the chainstays and cold set the frame which was much easier without the brace. I re-aligned the dropouts and then cut a piece of steel tube to fashion a new brace. I am going to use the same steel tube to fashion braces for the dropouts to stiffen up the rear for disk brakes.

    This is my first time brazing. I did some practice runs on some steel scrap. I brazed 2 pieces together and it seems the key to a good weld is getting the metal hot enough to keep the molten brass flowing. Otherwise you end up with globs and a weak bond. It is also key to prep the surface by roughing it up so the brass can flow in and bond. I brazed the 2 pieces together and after cooling I put it in a vise and beat the sh!t out of it with a hammer to see how strong it was. To my suprise it was very strong and took alot of pounding to break so i am confident the disk brake mount will hold up assuming I can get it mounted properly.
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  20. #20
    Master of the Face Plant
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    My first time brazing. Still alot of file work left but I managed to do it without overheating and warping the frame. Its not pretty but I think it will smooth out ok. Once it is powder coated or painted it should look fine.
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  21. #21
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    The paint actually usually highlights the dips and uneven spots (especially undercuts), so try to get it as good as you can before you paint it. I filed some joints before which I tought were perfect, but they didn't look so perfect after the paint. Looks great for your first time brazing, Cheers.

  22. #22
    Gamers local 2112
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    paint is 90% prep. Looking forward to seeing your completed project, with some dirt on it.

  23. #23
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev106 View Post
    paint is 90% prep. Looking forward to seeing your completed project, with some dirt on it.
    You said it there. This bike is going to require lots of prep before painting. I was going to do a powder coat but there are some areas with pitting that need to be filled. I don't think you can do power over body fill. Either way, my paint guy is really good and cheap.

    I got the derailler hanger tapped and I have fashioned some gussets to reinforce the rear end. After I get the disk tab mitered I will see if everything will fit and if so I will start brazing.
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  24. #24
    Master of the Face Plant
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    I brazed in some braces for the rear end. I used the same tube that I used for the chainstay brace, heated it, hammered it flat and mitered it to fit the shape of the rear triangle by hand. Lots of file work. I brazed it in and then hit it with the angle grinder to get it shaped right. I had to coat it with primer because my garage is so damp that everything flash rusts practically overnight. Next step is the disk brake mount. Not bad for a guy that learned to weld watching YouTube. I also tapped and shaped the drop stand tabs into a derailler hanger and trimmed the non drive side dropout.

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  25. #25
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    So cool, thanks for posting pics

  26. #26
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    That is gonna be awesome when its done, whether it works or not please get it on film!!

  27. #27
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarBoom View Post
    That is gonna be awesome when its done, whether it works or not please get it on film!!
    I ordered a steel disk brake mount from Pacenti. It is made from 1/4 inch mild steel and I plan to use a 160mm disk wheel and an avid bb7 as a jig to get the alignment right. If I can't get disk brakes to work I will just braze on some canti mounts but I have seen other pre-war frames with disks so I am determined to make it work. It is probably a really stupid idea and completely impractical but it will be so awesome if I can pull it off. I may even do the paint myself.
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  28. #28
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    Disc brakes and the plates to stop on you will have the stoppage solved but my main worry is almost a century of metal fatigue

  29. #29
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarBoom View Post
    Disc brakes and the plates to stop on you will have the stoppage solved but my main worry is almost a century of metal fatigue
    That is always a concern but honestly. I am 42 years old. My days of taking drops off of loading docks are over and my 36 Mercury which was made in the same factory and is practically identical has put up with lots of abuse. Truth be told I trust these about as much as some modern bikes.

    I got the disk tab in today and tried it on for size. Untrimmed like this was a no-go. I would never be able to get the wheel on an off without messing with the brake.


    So I trimmed it a bit, still rough but after some grinding and filing it should fit flush to the top of the seat stay. Then I will strip that primer back off, sand it with 80 grit so the brass can get a grip and then I will lay a fat bead in there. This way I can take the wheel off without any fuss.

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  30. #30
    mtbr member
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    This thread is really exciting me. Really cool project.

  31. #31
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    Incredibly cool, love the dedication and fab skills. Really looking forward to the final product.

  32. #32
    The Crazy Cat Lady of VRC
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    Admire your skills and the effort involved...it's a great project...looking forward to seeing the next update.


    Steve

  33. #33
    Master of the Face Plant
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    I was brazing like crazy today. Clearly I still have alot to learn but i managed to get a nice heavy strong braze. The key is keeping the surrounding metal red hot so the brass flows. Getting the mount tacked into position was a *****. I used my disk wheel and clamped the brake in place on the rotor to serve as a jig. It worked and I got lucky. The brake lines up just fine. Still lots of file work and sanding to do but it feels super solid.










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  34. #34
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    Looks really cool. I'm always excited to see updates to this thread.

    I would have been tempted to smooth all of the junctions between the dropouts and stays.

  35. #35
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boy named SSue View Post
    Looks really cool. I'm always excited to see updates to this thread.

    I would have been tempted to smooth all of the junctions between the dropouts and stays.
    I actually did that on the other side but I ran out of oxygen. I still need to braze a bit more on the back side of the disk mount because I have some pits from running out of oxygen.
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  36. #36
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    Looks really good man for a first time braze it turned out nice

  37. #37
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    Nice!

  38. #38
    Master of the Face Plant
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    One thing for sure, if I ever do anything like this again I a getting a proper welding torch. The little bernzomatic kit I bought works pretty well but it is tough keeping the metal hot enough for the brass to flow over it. It would be fine for small stuff like cable guides but not big jobs.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts View Post
    One thing for sure, if I ever do anything like this again I a getting a proper welding torch. The little bernzomatic kit I bought works pretty well but it is tough keeping the metal hot enough for the brass to flow over it. It would be fine for small stuff like cable guides but not big jobs.
    Not to mention the cost of the oxy cylinders. After a few clunker conversions I spent as much on those little red cans as I would have buying a good used kit.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

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  40. #40
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff View Post
    Not to mention the cost of the oxy cylinders. After a few clunker conversions I spent as much on those little red cans as I would have buying a good used kit.
    Yep. I could have gotten a used setup with a cart, torches and tanks for $150 a while back. I regret not buying it. I went through 5 oxy cylinders at 9 bucks a pop and I am going to need at least one more for the cable stops.
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  41. #41
    more beers, less gears
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    awesome project!

  42. #42
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    Oh, man! That is one gorgeous frame! I love the curve of the top tubes and the fillet, even rusty they look just perfect! Please do fill every dip and file to hair-losing perfection, oh the beauty! I am so green with envy now and am heading over to CL to see if there's anything there so graceful...

  43. #43
    Master of the Face Plant
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    This week I scored a Giant AC1 with a cracked frame super cheap. Along with some newer XT bits, Race Face cranks and a Manitou Sherman fork it had these lovely Hope M4's. Overkill? Yes. But they sure are pretty.
    http://www.nbbikes.com/
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  44. #44
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    Not overkill AT ALL. This project deserves all the bling more than any of those fancy shmancy frames

    You, sir, are doing this frame a great justice.


  45. #45
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    Looks really nice, can't wait to see it finished. Commented to subscribe!

  46. #46
    gobsmacked Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur View Post
    Looks really nice, can't wait to see it finished. Commented to subscribe!
    hee hee, nice screen name.

  47. #47
    Mtn Biker Machinist
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike View Post
    hee hee, nice screen name.
    Glad to see another LOTR nerd that caught that!

    Sandmangts, this is beyond awesome, love seeing the updates!

    frog

  48. #48
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    Wow, what a project, excellent work.
    WTB: Ritchey Plexus
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike View Post
    hee hee, nice screen name.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1 cog frog View Post
    Glad to see another LOTR nerd that caught that!
    Haha, Cheers! For some reason I really liked the story of Isildur when I first read it way back in my early teens (early ninties) in LOTR & Silmarillion

    Back on topic: Looking forward for the next update! Can't wait to see how it finishes up!

  50. #50
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    Anyone else out there done this with a 20's or thirties vintage frame. I'd really like to do one of those. I really like the roaring 29er Tony Pereira built, just can't afford one.
    The Truth will set you free.

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