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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1 View Post
    why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.
    Well, back in the day of 135 stems being very common, a 140 didn't seem out there. I'm 6' tall and am on the medium frame - at the top end of the fit department.

    I could have gone either way, i suppose, but always liked the ride, so no complaints (except for going over the bars too often )

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1 View Post
    why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.
    Actually their top tubes are fairly short. They work well with drop bars because of the shorter top tube.

    I ran a 135mm stem on an 18" flat-bar Phoenix, but sold it for a later model 16.5" which works great with a 120mm x 25 degree stem for a drop bar. I'm about a 1/2" over 6 feet.
    Each bicycle owned exponentially increases the probability that none is working correctly.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by laffeaux View Post
    Actually their top tubes are fairly short. They work well with drop bars because of the shorter top tube.

    I ran a 135mm stem on an 18" flat-bar Phoenix, but sold it for a later model 16.5" which works great with a 120mm x 25 degree stem for a drop bar. I'm about a 1/2" over 6 feet.
    A 15in, medium phoenix has a 22.75 top tube. That's not short. Although top tube measure alone won't tell the whole story. i ride bikes w/ 22.25 top tubes and i am 5'9
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1 View Post
    why are you running a 140mm stem? those bikes have long top tubes. almost everybody is on a phoneix w/ 120mm stem.
    you talking about my 96 phoenix?

    it is a 120mm, but i've used 135mm in the past.

    phoenix frames have a fairly neutral "actual" top tube length i believe, and i agree this makes them work well with drop bars. That 93 of mine barely has a 22.5 actual top tube and it's the biggest one they made at that time.

    if you weren't talking about my frame, then carry on, sorry for the words.
    "believe what you ride, not what you read" 94 WTB catalog

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlonbike View Post
    v chipped vs non v chipped.
    Non.....Sniff.
    Zip ties? Not on my bike!

    Want:
    650B rims or wheel set. 80's vintage 32 or 36 x 135mm

  6. #106
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    A little update.

    After contacting several builders/repair people, I finally settled on someone relatively close to me. Good price, good lead time, and I like what i've seen of his work. This will be a straight restoration job and switching to Rollercams type of gig. It's not Mr. Potts, but I'm pretty comfortable with the decision.
    I've also started collecting the parts. I received my NOS rollercam... while not a high end version, it will certainly get me going. The long term plan is to use my CAD skills and access to CNC to make some cool neuvo-retro cams, but no rush for that. Also dug out the New Paradigm hubset and some Mavic 217 sunset rims that should make for a nice wheelset. The rear hub could use some bearing love, although it is servicable the way it is. I'll swap out the New Paradigm headset from my fixie crosser to this bike (where it belongs) and I'm going to keep my eye out for a later model (something in the '05 to '07 range) SID to graft my 1" Judy crown/steerer assembly on to while dropping to 63mm of travel. A couple other little bits and bobs, and it'll be a happy build, i think!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-photo.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-rear-wheel.jpg  


  7. #107
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    Cool, you got the good version of the roller cam.
    Need: McMahon brake for roller cam mounts, Mountain Goat fork.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by muddybuddy View Post
    Cool, you got the good version of the roller cam.
    Looks like the coil sprung version, if that's what you like.

    Sounds like a good plan, GMF. The only part you messed up on was selling that Type II to an out of towner.

    Interested in seeing your version of the roller cam someday.

  9. #109
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    It is indeed the coil spring version, not the "way cooler" linear spring version, but I am confident I can make this work well enough for the time being.

    Fillet - sorry about the Type II sale. The moderator threatened to kick me off this forum if i didn't sell it to her.

    A question for people still following this thread, though. Just as a sanity check for the "upgrade" of my Phoenix to a Phoenix SE, could someone measure the distance between the rollercam studs? I want to doubly make sure this ends up correct and that i'm not effing up my bike somehow.

    Thanks a bunch,
    -Damon

  10. #110
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    Consider sending the Roller Cam along with the frame for test fitting.

    Who's doing the work? Hunter? Paul S?
    -eric-

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  11. #111
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    Thanks for the suggestion, Rumpfy... you aren't the only one expressing a little bit of concern. I'll definitely be sending the Suntour XC Sport rollercam i bought along with the frame, and if it looks like a no-go (or at least not an easy go), then i'll most definitely live and i'll just stick with V brakes. Not as stylie cool, but i'll make the best of it.

    As for the frame dude, Tony at Black Cat Bicycles. I really dig his style and got a good vibe during my discussion with him. Paul S was a strong supporter of him as a choice, too. Both Paul and Hunter were too busy to take on the work.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post

    A question for people still following this thread, though. Just as a sanity check for the "upgrade" of my Phoenix to a Phoenix SE, could someone measure the distance between the rollercam studs? I want to doubly make sure this ends up correct and that i'm not effing up my bike somehow.

    Thanks a bunch,
    -Damon
    There are directions on where to weld the suntour rc bosses here:
    http://mombat.org/85XCSport4.jpg
    and some other indications here:
    http://mombat.org/WTB%201991%20Produ...20Page%203.jpg

    However I would expect the frame builder to know how.

    Are you planning to use a rear hanger to center the brake cable?

    I would leave the v brake, unless I had SP to weld the bosses and the toggle cam for the back.
    Last edited by Machianera; 12-15-2011 at 01:35 AM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    It is indeed the coil spring version, not the "way cooler" linear spring version, but I am confident I can make this work well enough for the time being.

    Fillet - sorry about the Type II sale. The moderator threatened to kick me off this forum if i didn't sell it to her.

    A question for people still following this thread, though. Just as a sanity check for the "upgrade" of my Phoenix to a Phoenix SE, could someone measure the distance between the rollercam studs? I want to doubly make sure this ends up correct and that i'm not effing up my bike somehow.

    Thanks a bunch,
    -Damon

    You could always get one of those arch ultimate Avids.. don't remember the name exactly. It's the coolest V brake ever made. there is a phoenix in this thread sporting those brakes. Though i like the SE option a lot.. and then you can obssess about finding a rollercam or two. priceless.
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  14. #114
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    I got a chance to play around at Fillet Brazed's retrobike mausoleum and cryogenics emporium last night, and look at the differences between his, ahem, well loved... '96 Phoenix and my '94. There were definitely some subtle differences in the seat stays (mine are about 8mm wider where the rollercams mount), but that will still work out OK, and after trying his various rollercams on the bike, i really got a sense of how they feel and what is unique about them. I liked it well enough to go ahead with it. I was also able to capture some of the details/nuances of what makes it work well.

    On an unrelated note, does anyone know of a source for either the decals or a graphics file that the earlier model Phoenix decals can be made from?

    Thanks,
    -Damon

  15. #115
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    So many Phoenii Rising from the Ashes.... Very fitting.


  16. #116
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    Dropout spacing question:

    Did ALL Phoenix frames come with a wider dropout? Mine (a not SE version) measured at 137-138 range. Were they trying to split the difference between 135 and 140, or? I just want to know if I should tell the frame guy to correct the spacing to 135 or keep it as-is.

    Thanks,
    -Damon

  17. #117
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    Phoenix frames were either 135 or 140. "Splitting the difference" would have been very un-WTB like.

  18. #118
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    Maybe you've been pinching a 135mm hub in your 140mm spaced frame? :|
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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    I got a chance to play around at Fillet Brazed's retrobike mausoleum and look at the differences between his '96 Phoenix and my '94. There were definitely some subtle differences in the seat stays (mine are about 8mm wider where the rollercams mount
    This might also point to your frame being 140mm spacing. It's a good thing, time to hunt for a matching WTB hub
    ...strictly downhill...

  20. #120
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    "resto mod"
    anyone have a definition for this term?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by klasse View Post
    "resto mod"
    anyone have a definition for this term?
    Generally speaking: vintage frame, modern parts.

    The term is used a lot in the vintage auto industry.
    -eric-

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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb49 View Post
    This might also point to your frame being 140mm spacing. It's a good thing, time to hunt for a matching WTB hub
    Mine has 140mm spacing. His seat stays arrive at the seat tube with a wider stance than mine do. Along with a dif sized headtube, and differently shaped stays, there are a few other subtle variations between his 94 and my 96.

    137/138 spacing could be a good thing though, since it would allow you to use either width hub.

    I'm just happy my poor ol' dirty Phoenix got to go on a field trip and come back all clean and shiny. Thanks Damon!

  23. #123
    GMF
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    Quote Originally Posted by halaburt
    Phoenix frames were either 135 or 140. "Splitting the difference" would have been very un-WTB like.
    The "un-WTB like"ness is definitely what prompted me to ask the question. It just didn't seem right for this frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed View Post
    Mine has 140mm spacing. His seat stays arrive at the seat tube with a wider stance than mine do. Along with a dif sized headtube, and differently shaped stays, there are a few other subtle variations between his 94 and my 96.

    137/138 spacing could be a good thing though, since it would allow you to use either width hub.

    I'm just happy my poor ol' dirty Phoenix got to go on a field trip and come back all clean and shiny. Thanks Damon!
    It was interesting to see how there were so many subtle differences - cable guides, dropouts, etc. between just those 2 years. I don't know why i expected the frames to be more consistent than that. Yours also has the "wide spacing" decal on the stay that mine never did.

    As for the dropout spacing, i'm kind of at a loss as to why it is wider. I know it is a standard edition Phoenix, and assuming that came with a 135 dropout spacing, that is all i've ever put in there. I wouldalso be hard pressed to believe that putting a 140 hub in a 135 frame or vice-versa would permanently set the rear triangle like that.

    I think i'll go to the proper 135 spacing just be more universal and not worry about respacing a hub to 140 if what i've got goes kablooey.

    And for the little bit i got to ride your Phoenix around (when was the last time I was on a hard tail?), it has got me fired up even more on getting this bike back on the dirt.

    -Damon

  24. #124
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    Damon- What you're noting as differences between '94 and '96 were elements of the one big re-do the steel Phoenix got during its lifespan. I've had #94304 and #96444 (both 140mm dropout and togglecam setups) and they had all those differences PLUS:
    - different decal sets
    - 3 bottle bosses on the down tube of the '96 for a Bomber cage
    - slightly more suspension correction on the '96 than the '94
    - Different BB shells (the '96 is thicker and you can convert it to press-in bearings - a popular PCC mod)

    I'm sure there are exceptions, but I suspect that most frames that have canti mounts were built as 135mm. Many (maybe even most) of the RC and TC mount frames were 140mm. WTB's assumption was probably that if a customer fully bought into the WTB vision, they'd want the good brakes and the good spacing. ;-)

  25. #125
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    Thanks for those added highlights. I also noticed that the '96 had star bottle boss braze-ons vs. my plain jane ones...

    Both ride great, though.

  26. #126
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    FWIW my 96 w/ 135 mm and v-brakes has the ritchey drops but plain braze-ons.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  27. #127
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    My '94 Phoenix, has Ritchey dropout, 135mm rear spacing, and RC and TC bosses.
    And 1" steer tube!!!!!!

  28. #128
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    my 96 has 140mm spacing. Personally, I think you should keep it 140mm. I know you're impatient but they're out there (mine is a Chris King hub) and if you're going to do it, it would be cool for you to do it right, not just make it universal.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by alasa View Post
    My '94 Phoenix, has Ritchey dropout, 135mm rear spacing, and RC and TC bosses.
    And 1" steer tube!!!!!!
    I think they all have Ritchey dropouts, but somewhere around 95 they went to the socket-style dropout.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed View Post
    I think they all have Ritchey dropouts, but somewhere around 95 they went to the socket-style dropout.
    Oh yeah good point that could be true - mine has the socket style dropout as expected.
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  31. #131
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    While i think the socket style dropout is probably functionally better, I really like the scalloped transition between the stays and the dropout on my plate style dropout. Dave - what did you call that again? French something or other?

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed View Post
    I'm just happy my poor ol' dirty Phoenix got to go on a field trip and come back all clean and shiny. Thanks Damon!
    Cute.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by colker1 View Post
    riding an 80mm on a frame ready for 63 won't be that dramatic. You can find a marzocchi and run substantial sag. It's what i do here and it works great. Or you coud just mod the fork into 63mm. doable.
    I'm looking at picking up a fork now and am going back and forth between a RS SID and a Marzocchi. Any recommendations (model/year)? I've never ridden either, and the Judy I had on there is all but dead.

    ...The frame decals are ordered, the rollercam bosses are in and about to be brazed on, and spacing set to 140mm.

    Thanks,
    -Damon

  34. #134
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    I'm a fan of the Marz (I have a late 90s Z2 X Fly on my 94) especially as they will press a 1" steerer into any fork they make and can drop the travel to your needs. If I had a 1 1/8" steerer the SID would be hard to pass up - about 400g lighter. Maybe RS will press a 1" steerer? I never checked.
    ...strictly downhill...

  35. #135
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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb49 View Post
    I'm a fan of the Marz (I have a late 90s Z2 X Fly on my 94) especially as they will press a 1" steerer into any fork they make and can drop the travel to your needs. If I had a 1 1/8" steerer the SID would be hard to pass up - about 400g lighter. Maybe RS will press a 1" steerer? I never checked.
    I've got a Marz Bomber Z2. It's a coil shock and prefer air forks on hardtails.. Having said that the Z2 takes care of itself and i have done zero maintenance in 14 yrs of owning this thing. I don't touch it. it keeps working.
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  37. #137
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    My preference is definitely for an air fork, for many of the reasons already stated. I've only ever ridden an entry level...MX-Pro? Whatever came on my base model Kona in 2003. It was a fine fork, but way overbuilt for what I am looking for.

    I just don't know the early marzocchi models very well, so that is why I am looking for suggestions about which (air) model would best be adapted to the Phoenix. A Superfly? A Z2 x-Fly (is that one?)?

    I'm sure the SID would be fine, I'm just curious about other options.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    My preference is definitely for an air fork, for many of the reasons already stated. I've only ever ridden an entry level...MX-Pro? Whatever came on my base model Kona in 2003. It was a fine fork, but way overbuilt for what I am looking for.

    I just don't know the early marzocchi models very well, so that is why I am looking for suggestions about which (air) model would best be adapted to the Phoenix. A Superfly? A Z2 x-Fly (is that one?)?
    I'm sure the SID would be fine, I'm just curious about other options.
    My Z2 X-Fly is air - I am not 100% but pretty sure alll the FLY models are air. It works great with the Phoenix, especially at 60mm.

    The bike had a Z2 Bomber (oil bath spring) when I got it that was also good, still have it but it needs service.



    I used a 1" MX Comp Air 80mm on this klunker project - that would be the newest Marz sold with the 1" steerer.

    ...strictly downhill...

  39. #139
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    Well, the frame is finally going under the toch. So far, the paint has been stripped, which unveiled... history. Quite a few dents (mostly really small - Xs mark the spots), but also some pinholes in the seat tube and some crusty rusty bits on the stays. The pin holes will be filled with silver and the stays will probably get some brass filling them in. Nothing structurally concerning, and I like that the builder is caring about this and letting me know what he's doing to fix them.

    Things are starting to move...

    Now i just hope the decals are finished sometime in the near future (i have received several "almost done" e-mails from Velo Cals). I'm sure it'll all get done in the end. I just need to get all this together before my birthday next month

    -Damon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-003.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-004.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-009.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-010.jpg  


  40. #140
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    The pinholes indicate a structural issue to me. It's rusting from the inside out.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyButterfly View Post
    The pinholes indicate a structural issue to me. It's rusting from the inside out.
    I'll ask the builder, but I trust his judgement. It is a good reminder to coat the inside with frame saver, though...

  42. #142
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    If you've got holes then it's going to be rusted thin spreading back away from them. Good luck.
    Chasing bears through the woods drunk with a dull hatchet is strongly not advised

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    Well, the frame is finally going under the toch. So far, the paint has been stripped, which unveiled... history. Quite a few dents (mostly really small - Xs mark the spots), but also some pinholes in the seat tube and some crusty rusty bits on the stays. The pin holes will be filled with silver and the stays will probably get some brass filling them in. Nothing structurally concerning, and I like that the builder is caring about this and letting me know what he's doing to fix them.

    Things are starting to move...

    Now i just hope the decals are finished sometime in the near future (i have received several "almost done" e-mails from Velo Cals). I'm sure it'll all get done in the end. I just need to get all this together before my birthday next month

    -Damon
    I got my Airborne decals done from VeloCals, top quality work, but very, very slow. Keep
    contacting him, that's what I had to do to get them done. Good luck.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    I got my Airborne decals done from VeloCals, top quality work, but very, very slow. Keep
    contacting him, that's what I had to do to get them done. Good luck.
    Latest update is this Tuesday (tomorrow) . It isn't holding things up (yet), but it is almost getting to that point...

  45. #145
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    Decals are now done and on order:

    Results for WTB Wilderness Trail Bikes

    He still needs to clarify his model years of decal set better, but I have the early (roundier "phoenix" font) style on order. "Next Tuesday" took a couple weeks.

  46. #146
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    This tiny holes are sings of deeper corrosion damage from the outside. At least at my steel bikes this was the case and I do know that because I grinded and smoothed down them by hand.

  47. #147
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    Thanks for all the concerns about the frame, but the frame guy has the best perspective on this (both experience and having the frame in hand). He says it'll be OK, and is taking steps to mitigate any possible problem. I am confident the frame will be just fine... and if not, it has had a good life. I think it'll last a lot longer, though.

  48. #148
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    who's doing the work on the frame?
    looking for 20-21" P team

  49. #149
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    My buddy has one of their bikes. Cool stuff.
    -eric-

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    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  51. #151
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    I can hardly find one of his creations that I don't think is awesome. When i get around to replacing my "made in china" road/cyclocross machine... you better believe he is going to be on the short list. May take some time, though, as i tend to hang on to bikes for a while...

  52. #152
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    Good news and bad. Decals are shipping to the frame guy, so almost done. But... The painter mixed up the colors on two frames, mine being one, and the builder's NAHBS submission being the other (DOH!).

    So hopefully that will get corrected quickly. Only have a little over a week left to make it in time for a birthday present (not looking likely, now... sad face). But still very close!

    -Damon

  53. #153
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    Go with the NAHBS job
    Somec is like the digital Zunow
    And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5h3y0a9AU

  54. #154
    GMF
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    Have you been talking to my wife? She said the same thing... Email sent to the builder, too :-)

    -Damon

  55. #155
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    If you don't dig it they should be able to get it redone for you later. But you could get riding sooner, and likely have an awesome show-quality paint job.
    Somec is like the digital Zunow
    And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5h3y0a9AU

  56. #156
    GMF
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    I think it is just a powder base coat before he does his artsy thing, but a picture will tell. With any luck he'll send one tonight that I will share.

    Either way, I'm pretty stoked to be in the home stretch. Just a few components left to get, and I'll be ready to roll!

  57. #157
    GMF
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    Not a picture of my frame, but here is the color (the blue grey, not the green). I do dig the color, but i think the black decals on order/being made right now may not look good with it. What do you guys think?

    black cat bicycles: Chug-a-Lug

  58. #158
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    Twood certainly be stealthy. I might chose silver, but the understated black on blue-grey might look pretty rad.
    Somec is like the digital Zunow
    And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5h3y0a9AU

  59. #159
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    First of all, that's hot. Gray with black is awesome.

    Second of all, I doubt you're able to wait anyway. Stick them on and ride like hell, D!

  60. #160
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    Yeah, it certainly is hot, but the more I look at it, the more I think I am going to pass and go with the original pearl white. What can I say, I'm a patient man... The black on grey is a little too aggro for this bike, and the majority of my components are silver or grey, which wouldn't look very good, methinks. I'm certainly not going to start over with the component shopping.

    For me, my Phoenix is about fun, good times, and good memories - not a ninja death sneak attack...

  61. #161
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    I really like that color (and that bike)! I say go with it. Will hunt for an RD for you tomorrow.

  62. #162
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    C'mon, go with the gray. Pearl white looks boring as heck. I would love my Phoenix to be that color. Nate's green is amazing. Be bold.

    Help, FB!

  63. #163
    GMF
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    ok - so imagine that color with silver cranks, brakes... pretty much everything, with mavic rims in the citron/sunset ano... does that combo sound good to you? Color matching really ain't my thing, so i may be missing something, but it just seems wrong.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    ok - so imagine that color with silver cranks, brakes... pretty much everything, with mavic rims in the citron/sunset ano... does that combo sound good to you? Color matching really ain't my thing, so i may be missing something, but it just seems wrong.
    neither one of those

    no

    just no
    looking for 20-21" P team

  65. #165
    GMF
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    Quote Originally Posted by hollister View Post
    no

    just no
    Somebody would hafta to swap me some rims, because that is what i already have built up

  66. #166
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    Go w/ the blue grey!
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  67. #167
    GMF
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    Well, now that my frame is getting close to being done, i need to do something about the roller cam brakes i purchased for the rear. As was (very) helpfully pointed out to me, the roller cam is not the working solution for the phoenix because the seat stays are so short. There isn't enough room for the cable to wrap around the seatpost and then go straight again in the middle of the frame. Thus, the toggle cam was invented, and Cunningham said it was good.

    So, I don't have the bucks for a genuine toggle cam, but i do have the coins for a budget suntour roller cam brake and a few raw materials. While not quite done, a few hours, a dremel and a bandsaw has gotten me to this point.

    Many thanks to FilletBrazed for letting me check out his Phoenix and take a little tracing of his toggle cam plate and get some measurements. I just hope my part works when all is said and done...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-cam.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-cam2.jpg  


  68. #168
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    On a side note, would a short cable hanger work?
    as long as che cable aligns with the pulleys and the angle can be fixed (with or without screw
    ).








  69. #169
    GMF
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    Thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying to keep it WTB style, which uses a clean little cable guide loop on the side and the side-actuated toggle cam. Fine suggestion, though...

  70. #170
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    great idea - charlie will be proud of you

  71. #171
    GMF
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    Thanks Levi - it is a little hacky looking, but i figure it is in the spirit of the early WTB days...

  72. #172
    GMF
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    So she is now pretty much built up and rideable (still need to do some cable management and other odds and ends). Not totally satisfied with the build by any means, but it is getting there. I just had a couple free minutes to snap off a couple pics while it was still daylight.

    I am still trying to figure out my (mono-chrome) color scheme, but I ended up really digging the sunset ano rims with the understated grey w/silver decal frame. The homebrew toggle cam works really well and feels solid. I had to break out the dremel on a few bits to get all the pieces to clear, but i like how tidy it is and how it feels tailored to this frame. Next, i think i have a nice thick plate of aluminum that should work for a brace.

    I'm trying a 2x8 drivetrain for the first time, so i'll see if i dig that gearing... if not I have a set of old XT cranks that can go on here. Maybe something modern, but I've always wanted a set of Syncros Revolution cranks...

    Things I want to swap:
    The junk seat for a proper WTB SST saddle
    The fork for something that works halfway decently
    The front tube for one that doesn't have a slow leak
    The stem for a slightly higher rise model (thinking syncros cattleprod)
    The bars for a flat bar variety (thinking syncros here, too)

    I've got other little ideas and projects for the bike to make it a little more interesting/special, but those are down the road. I need to get it dirty first

    And I'll try to work on my photography skills, too.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix1.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix2.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix3.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix4.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix5.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix6.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix7.jpg  


  73. #173
    Relax. I'm a pro.
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    I've always felt that the Phoenix, and any other bike that was designed for singletrack, is aggro. I dig the gray-and-black.
    Instagram: @antoine1000
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  74. #174
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    Wow, is that ever a lot of seatpost. How does the rear brake work?
    undefined Absolutely must have: Black Machine Tech Zeroflex brake levers (the ones with the rotating leverage adjuster)

  75. #175
    GMF
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    Thanks Vlad. The bike definitely is a bit more "aggro" looking than with the original pearl white paint, but I like it.

    Uphiller, I'll be the first to admit that I am on the upper end for this frame size, but keep in mind that this frame was designed in the days of no suspension, so a long seat post and a long stem were considered the ways to soften up the ride. The long seatpost is pretty typical for the Phoenix frame (and is really quite comfy).
    The rear brake is a homebrew toggle cam. The cable pulls on the right side of the cam plate and it pivots around an adjuster/bolt on the left side. It does work quite well and feels nicely solid despite not having any sort of booster. It is not the lightest setup, but this is no weight weenie bike. The cool part about using the cam plate is that you can get a ton of rim clearance while still getting a lot of clamping power. It really is a nice rim brake design.

  76. #176
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    I also saw you're using Avid brake levers with adjustable leverage- what leverage setting are they on? With the cable carrier thingie closer to the bar, or farther away?
    I remember riding a Phoenix several years ago, just a really great do it all hardtail, would love to own one. Thanks for posting the pics.
    undefined Absolutely must have: Black Machine Tech Zeroflex brake levers (the ones with the rotating leverage adjuster)

  77. #177
    GMF
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    It Is pretty much right in the middle. These are the cantilever Avid SD brake levers, btw. However, by altering the cam profile you should be able make it work with either canti or v brake levers.

  78. #178
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    Thought I would just update this thread with a little (albeit already outdated) ride picture on a fun little outing around Pebble Beach.

    I'm enjoying the 2x8 drivetrain, and the rear toggle cam is working fine (have made a couple of improvements), and the xc-pro thumbies with m900 rear derailleur still shifts wonderfully. I need to drop some money on another fork, though, since the judy-crowned sid, while OK, is a weak link in the ride. Maybe just a full rebuild is needed. The 80mm of travel works really well with the frame, though - much better than i thought. The 1" steerer is going to prove a sticky point for fork replacement, as usual...

    I swapped the pretty TTT 140x0* stem for a salsa 120x6*(?) stem, and it fits much better, so I don't feel like I'm always headed for an endo...

    My last ride was in the rain and slop around here though (on the same trail pictured), and oh man... did those v-brakes in front suck it up. I had forgotten how bad they are in the wet! I may be swapping to a disk front end - which is a pretty awesome contrast to the toggle cam. It'll be my mullet bike: business in the front, party in the back.

    I've got lots of little tweaks and mods planned for the future, but it is all fabrication intensive (well, for me, anyway), so it'll happen slowly...

    Anyway, just a little update
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix-woods.jpg  


  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    It'll be my mullet bike: business in the front, party in the back.
    ha! That's funny! I was thinking that your forks may work substantially better after a Hippietech rebuild. I've had good stopping power with v brakes in the rain. Have you thought about changing your pads to the salmon kool stops? Are there pics of your mods to the togglecams?

    Thanks for the update!

  80. #180
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    Thanks for the suggestions GOB - i do not have the salmons on there, despite being a big fan of them. I do have the original salmon pads on the back (mathauser finned jobbies), and they did seem less effected by the wet. Regarding the togglecam mods - the togglecam kind of IS the mod. It was originally an xc-sport (expert?) roller cam that i toggled up. You can see a picture of it on pg 7. Since then, i've swapped out the brass roller with an old avid rollamajig roller (the metal kind). Feels like butter, now. I can take more detailed pics, if you want to see something more specific...

    As for hippietech - i've never looked into them. If it runs $75, i'd probably go for it, but if it's $150, i just don't think the fork is worth it. I left a message with them, so we'll see what they have to say...

  81. #181
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    I'm sorry, I had a brain fart. I see the pictures below. That's great that it worked well. I love the guys that do a lot of creative modifications on this forum. I have a great respect for innovative people.

    Let us know what happens with your suspension fix!

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    As for hippietech - i've never looked into them. If it runs $75, i'd probably go for it, but if it's $150, i just don't think the fork is worth it. I left a message with them, so we'll see what they have to say...
    I've not had a good experience with HT. It's a one man operation and the owner operator is obviously very busy with stuff other than his business. I won't bore you to death with details and I don't feel particularly comfortable bad mouthing people or businesses in a public way on on the interwebs. Suffice it to say, if I was going to get my forks serviced again I would look around for an alternate company.

  83. #183
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    Thanks classen - good information. I am perfectly capable of rebuilding the forks, it would just take me some time, and all the parts would start approaching $75 (oil, bushings, all seals, etc). So parts with free labor *should* be a good deal, but only if it doesn't get to be a hassle!

    I've got a couple options moving forward, but I definitely appreciate the advice.

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by classen View Post
    I've not had a good experience with HT. It's a one man operation and the owner operator is obviously very busy with stuff other than his business. I won't bore you to death with details and I don't feel particularly comfortable bad mouthing people or businesses in a public way on on the interwebs. Suffice it to say, if I was going to get my forks serviced again I would look around for an alternate company.
    That's interesting. CCMDoc mentioned this in a different thread today. That is too bad. I was going to use him but got a forum regular that lived near me to help out instead. (Thanks!) Rumpfy has used him and swore by him. Too bad if his work has gone downhill. Thanks for letting us know, Classen.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    I may be swapping to a disk front end - which is a pretty awesome contrast to the toggle cam. It'll be my mullet bike: business in the front, party in the back.
    I probably mentioned it or posted a pic earlier in this thread, but I did the mullet with my TC'ed Phoenix. Get a road BB7 Avid disk brake and it'll pair up nicely with your cantilever specific levers.


    And yes, my fork is a HippieTech built SID. Under 3lbs and several years of hard abuse with no issues. I know some have had bad experiences, but mine have been good. Maybe because I worked with Jerry on a few forks early (maybe 10 years ago now) on and have been a repeat customer.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
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  86. #186
    GMF
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    Yeah, I've seen your mullet Phoenix, Rumpfy - and I definitely dig it. If I do end up disking the front, I'm contemplating putting a hydraulic piston back for the toggle cam and going a full hydro brake setup just for giggles. Cable brakes for now, though, as I like having the matched new paradigm hubs.

    I have an experiment underway with the fork thing that may take a couple weeks to get all the parts in, but if that pans out, i'll post it up. In the mean time, i'll just re-lube the stantions on the SID to get it bouncy again and avoid nasty muck.

  87. #187
    GMF
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    I was a mix of irresponsible and responsible over the last few months. Just cleaned up the fork, and it still works well enough, and got a set of salmon pad inserts, so that helped out braking (thanks for the suggestion, GOB).

    I want to see if you guys can pick out the 4 other changes that happened today. Additional little story if they are picked out (and i'll be shocked if the changes aren't picked out with ease!)

    -Damon
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-phoenix1.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-photo-2.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-photo-3.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-photo-4.jpg  


  88. #188
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    1) Sweet Wings cranks
    2) New/shorter black stem (Salsa I'm guessing)
    3) Syncros Steer Horn bar ends
    4) A kid, assuming he's yours as well.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  89. #189
    GMF
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    1 and 3 are definitely correct, and I guess #2 is technically correct, but that had been changed a while ago (yeah - salsa). As for #4, that kid has been hanging around for 7 years. For some reason, I can't get rid of him...

    Stupid story is about the cranks. I had been on the lookout for a set of syncros cranks (have a thing for the tubular steel cranks), and then found the sweets in good shape. Went to install them, but lo-and-behold the tube that fits between the bearings is not held tight (as it is supposed to - this tube keeps the drive side bearing in place, which holds the cranks in place). So the solution is presumably to face the BB shell by about 1/2mm.
    I took it to the local bike who wanted the bike for about 5 days until they could do this 10 minute job, but whatever... Fine.
    On wednesday, though, i get a call from the shop saying they got the BB in and they added a shim between the drive side cup and the frame.
    What?
    Turns out they didn't set the tube correctly and they munched it. Not happy.

    Lemons into lemonade, though: i just happened to have a crusty, dead cannondale road frame that i had been meaning to throw out... with the same OD 1.25" tube. Out comes a hack saw, out comes the chop saw, and bam. New (slightly wider) spacer. Thicker wall, so I added a bit of weight, but mass macho (and who cares about the weight?). LocTite is setting up tonight, so we'll see how they hold up. They feel good and tight, though, so i hope they'll be way better than what was on there before.

    This is why I don't like other people working on my bikes...

  90. #190
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    Good job Damon! Cute kid. that was a ton of effort. Do you have a close up of the process of what you did?

  91. #191
    GMF
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    I'll try to take some pictures tomorrow of the munched tube (not really THAT bad - just significantly worse than i brought it in), the cut up bike in the garbage, and the tube in the chop saw. The last part was fun.

  92. #192
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    This isn't going to help much, as they are double ghetto cell phone pics. Post shorty night ride, so my bike light + iphone provide the photographic ambiance.

    First is the picture of what the spacer should look like (one end)
    Second is what the spacer got turned into (the other end)
    ... after thought and bike shop trubs...
    Third are the remains of the old cannondale road bike in the recycling
    Fourth is the seat tube clamped in the chop saw
    Fifth is a the first spacer that i cut, and no matter how many times i cut that sumbich, it still ended up too short. Had to make a new one.
    <<for some reason pic 1 isn't showing up, but you get the idea>>


    Probably the worst "this is what i did" photo group on the internet, but there isn't anything complicated about the process.

    Step 1) find 1.25" OD aluminum tube
    Step 2) square off 1 end in the chop saw (used fine pitch blade)
    Step 3) compare length to munched tube, add a tiny bit
    Step 4) cut other end of 1.25" OD aluminum tube
    Step 5) deburr edges with dremel+sanding drum
    Step 6) install

    Number of people in the world this post will help? 0
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-1-tube-clean.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-2-tube-munched.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-3-cut-up-frame.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-4chopsaw.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-5-too-short.jpg  

    Last edited by GMF; 01-21-2013 at 09:02 AM.

  93. #193
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    I'm not sure I fully understand the need for the spacer tube, as I've put thousands of miles on a set of these cranks without one. It seems like good adhesive on the bearing and the drive side cup is sufficient to hold it in place. I think I once read that the tube kept the two bearings and cups in nice, square alignment, but this seems less critical on a frame with a BB shell that has been properly faced on both sides. I do use Loctite liberally during installation.

  94. #194
    GMF
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    The spacer tube pushes the drive side bearing firmly into the cup to prevent axial movement. It is what is supposed to set the stop for the drive side cup as the spacer gets squeezed between the drive side bearing and the non-drive side cup (the threaded section you fit the tool into).

    The cranks float in the non-drive side bearing, but pinch the drive bearing inner race, and that is what holds the crank arms in place, left/right. A robust positioning of the drive bearing seems important. Apparently loctite does the job well enough, but i guess I wanted to preserve the original design intent. I am using loctite at the splined interface and also at the bolt holding the crank together, though.

    It is a clever design, with some known but easily addressed flaws. I hope the cranks last me for a while.

    On my ride last night, i did notice the "stiffness", but definitely can't say it was an earth shattering experience. It was a nice ride and they performed without me noticing them, and that is a good thing, so i'm happy :-)

  95. #195
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    I like your build. I like the stem.. the crankset.. bike color.. suntour thumb shifters.. it looks right. even the bar ends on the semi riser look good.
    WTB: Bomber Z2 1 1/8 steerer, in good to excellent shape OR bomber rebuild kit.

  96. #196
    GMF
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    So i had an interesting (and hopefully not future life threatening) project this weekend. I've been frustrated with the lack of 1" steerer tube suspension fork options (i know white brothers is out there, but not interested in their $700 fork), so I decided to do something about it.

    I had an old Noleen Mega Air fork that I liked well enough, but was in... "hard to sell" condition. I figured why not try to swap in a 1" steerer tube. 1" RST threadless steerers are surprisingly cheap on amazon so I ordered one up.

    Next, you'll see my borderline redneck way of approaching this:

    1) Chop saw the steerer off (i like my chop saw!)
    2) You've been chopped
    3) Rig up a dubious way of clamping a plunge router to the top of the crown
    4) plunge as far as you can go - be disappointed that it didn't cut all the way through
    5) bust out the dremel to finish it off
    (not shown) - borrow an adjustable reamer and open up the hole to the right size (the steerer tube was 1.069" diameter - calc out that a .004-.005" press fit should be pretty good, so ream it to 1.064). The reamer wasn't so awesome, so i did the best I could.
    6) Throw the steerer in some dry ice to shrink it
    7) Throw the fork uppers in the oven to expand it
    8) Get a rigged up clampy thing ready (after trying to just "slip them together" unsuccessfully: -110*F steel will heat up quickly when touched to 200*F aluminum, and the calculated clearance turns into an interference)
    9) Get your son to help you with the jenky press, and voila'! Steerer installed.
    10) Mount it to the bike and breath some life back into the fork.

    The fork kind of looks like junk, but it'll work well enough and seems in better shape than the Sid that was on there before. Also, noticably less flexy. Between the 32mm stantions and the 9mm ritchey Sqraxle that I adapted to the New Paradigm hub, it tracks pretty darn well... on the road in front of my house :-) No hands riding works with no problem and the steerer hasn't twisted in the crown, yet (but I am going to add a dowel pin - just in case). The slightly longer steerer tube also gets the handlebars up higher which unweights the front end a bit and lightens up the steering, offsetting the longer travel fork.

    If this process works out, i'm thinking of getting a later model Sid or Fox Float (or suggestions?) and pressing in a threaded steerer for a little extra intrigue.

    I'm sure you'll hear a report from me in the hospital in a month or so...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  

    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)-image.jpg  


  97. #197
    gobsmacked Moderator
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    Hoping to resto-mod my WTB Phoenix (long-ish)

    I love the shock pump just tossed aside in the last frame. what a process. I'm glad you documented it and hope it works out for you. Kudos to you and quite a few members here like Double Century, modifier, clausen, et al. who are skilled and creative enough to find solutions on your own.

  98. #198
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    No thanks, wouldn't ride it. Why not call a custom builder and have them build you a nice steel fork and be done with it?

  99. #199
    GMF
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    Thanks, GOB. I realize my stuff is pretty hacky compared to many of the other mods, but it is an entertaining process.

    Quote Originally Posted by 993rs View Post
    No thanks, wouldn't ride it. Why not call a custom builder and have them build you a nice steel fork and be done with it?
    Because then I would have a rigid fork and not the possibility for a modern suspension fork on a classic frame. Also, a big part of the appeal is building something myself and learning something new. I also like that my kids help out and see that things can be built and not just bought.

    Just for the record, an industrial version of this is how suspension forks are made these days (well, have been made since the mid 90s).

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF View Post
    So i had an interesting (and hopefully not future life threatening) project this weekend. I've been frustrated with the lack of 1" steerer tube suspension fork options (i know white brothers is out there, but not interested in their $700 fork), so I decided to do something about it.

    I had an old Noleen Mega Air fork that I liked well enough, but was in... "hard to sell" condition. I figured why not try to swap in a 1" steerer tube. 1" RST threadless steerers are surprisingly cheap on amazon so I ordered one up.

    Next, you'll see my borderline redneck way of approaching this:

    1) Chop saw the steerer off (i like my chop saw!)
    2) You've been chopped
    3) Rig up a dubious way of clamping a plunge router to the top of the crown
    4) plunge as far as you can go - be disappointed that it didn't cut all the way through
    5) bust out the dremel to finish it off
    (not shown) - borrow an adjustable reamer and open up the hole to the right size (the steerer tube was 1.069" diameter - calc out that a .004-.005" press fit should be pretty good, so ream it to 1.064). The reamer wasn't so awesome, so i did the best I could.
    6) Throw the steerer in some dry ice to shrink it
    7) Throw the fork uppers in the oven to expand it
    8) Get a rigged up clampy thing ready (after trying to just "slip them together" unsuccessfully: -110*F steel will heat up quickly when touched to 200*F aluminum, and the calculated clearance turns into an interference)
    9) Get your son to help you with the jenky press, and voila'! Steerer installed.
    10) Mount it to the bike and breath some life back into the fork.

    The fork kind of looks like junk, but it'll work well enough and seems in better shape than the Sid that was on there before. Also, noticably less flexy. Between the 32mm stantions and the 9mm ritchey Sqraxle that I adapted to the New Paradigm hub, it tracks pretty darn well... on the road in front of my house :-) No hands riding works with no problem and the steerer hasn't twisted in the crown, yet (but I am going to add a dowel pin - just in case). The slightly longer steerer tube also gets the handlebars up higher which unweights the front end a bit and lightens up the steering, offsetting the longer travel fork.

    If this process works out, i'm thinking of getting a later model Sid or Fox Float (or suggestions?) and pressing in a threaded steerer for a little extra intrigue.

    I'm sure you'll hear a report from me in the hospital in a month or so...

    Nice cryofit action.

    I've wondered this when using heat and cold to temporarily alter dimensions so maybe you know; you said you cooled the steerer which makes sense, and then you heated the crown to make it expand (ie achieve a bigger ID). Well, if it expands couldn't it expand in such a way and close down that ID to a smaller diameter?

    Higher stem to compensate for taller fork? I would think the stem would need to go the other way...

    Nice little project. I love that kinda stuff. I would certainly pin it. Maybe even twice.

    When are we riding?

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