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  1. #1
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    1995/6 WTB Phoenix Stealth Resto-mod.

    I have a modern full suspension bike. I love it. All my VRC bikes are exercises in period or near period correctness. What I didn't have, was a good ole' fashioned XC hardtail. For a short while I had a freshly restored 94 Phoenix SE. At the time I thought for sure I would never find the correct Toggle-Cam or Type II for...so I sold it.

    I had the opportunity to put some saddle time on Fillet-Brazed's Phoenix on one of my local trails. A trail I had done 100's of times before. One run through a nice little single track section on the Psyclone (which I liked) and once on his Phoenix. Uh oh. Major difference. The way that WTB felt was truly amazing. Absolutely comfortable and effortless through the same pass. It shouldn't be too much of a surprise, since I like the way my Potts and Ritchey ride I suppose.

    At any rate, this guy popped up on the MTBR Classifieds in the vintage section (how often does that happen!) and I swooped. Frame, Toggle, 140mm WTB hub, misc parts. A solid foundation.
    Several of the other parts I already had lying around, a few items had to be sourced. The goal was to put together a classic NorCal XC MTB; modern enough to be user friendly yet still retain that VRC flavor.

    Soo...this morning was my first ride on it (Kings of Kennedy Hill Climb Race) and it was everything that I expected. I need to make a few tweaks and put a lot more saddle time in on it, but what a joy. I stripped most of the worn decals. No one needs to know what this is.

    Sorry for the poor quality pics.


    Frame: Dec 1995 Phoenix SE, suspension corrected
    Fork: Custom Hippie-Tech Rock Shox SID (2.5 lb fork)
    Rims: Mavic 317 Disc front, Mavic 231 rear (Hollister built wheelset)
    Hubs: Chris King Disc front, WTB Classic GG 140mm rear
    Quick Release: WTB
    Tires: Specialized Fast Trak Kevlar
    Pedals: Shimano SPD
    Crank: Cook Bros E
    Chain: Sram
    Rear Cogs: Something I need to change to Dura Ace
    Bottom Bracket: World Class Ti
    Front Derailleur: Shimano M901 XTR
    Rear Derailleur: Shimano Dura Ace 7400
    Shifters: Shimano M900 XTR
    Handlebars: Easton Monkeylite SL
    Grips: Ritchey WCS
    Stem: Ritchey WCS
    Headset: Chris King No-Logo
    Brake set: Avid BB7 Road front (to work with cantilever levers), WTB Toggle-Cam rear
    Brake levers: Shimano M900 XTR
    Saddle: WTB SSR Ti
    Seat Post: Syncros 31.8 (would love to find the proper WTB post)
    Paint: Forrest Green, 'Phoenix' decals removed.
    Size: 15"
    Serial #:
    Place of Origin: Mill Valley, Ca.























    As I got it.

    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
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  2. #2
    I picked two too many
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    I adore functionalist looking steeds.

  3. #3
    horn doggie
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    A bit of this, a bit of that. Some new-ish, some vintage-esque components. The ride is what matters. Seems you've found it - congrats!
    Wanted:

    Potts, Potts, Potts

  4. #4
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    Nice and dirty! Looks great! I wonder how many people just ran over to look at the classifieds.

    15" huh? Now you're hanging out in my box.

    Are those King cages? They shouldn't make your nice water bottles look like that.

    g

    p.s. It's so nice that this is neither an outing nor a piece of crap.
    Last edited by girlonbike; 09-06-2008 at 03:05 PM.

  5. #5
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    Another beautiful bike. They never look dated, thats what makes them a classic. There are no colors time forgot no unsightly gussets or extra tubes. Just a collection of fine steel tubes put together at beautiful angles with artisan welds. Timeless.

  6. #6
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    Rumpfy's.......he's gone German nuclear on seat post height! Great looking ride!
    Needed: 26.8mm XTR seatpost, blue GT/Grundig Jersey.

  7. #7
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    Nice looking rider! I need one of these some day.

    How is the balance between the toggle in the rear and the Avid mechanical in the front?

  8. #8
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    Very nice. I'd prefer it with the decals, but ...

  9. #9
    Fat City Michael
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    Nice build, glad that you like the ride and that you went for function over fashion because that bike was made to ride!
    FATMIKEYNYC

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgirlonbike
    Nice and dirty! Looks great! I wonder how many people just ran over to look at the classifieds.

    15" huh? Now you're hanging out in my box.

    Are those King cages? They shouldn't make your nice water bottles look like that.

    g

    p.s. It's so nice that this is neither an outing nor a piece of crap.

    Phoenix sizing ran different that traditional MTB sizing...so in this case, 15" is the proper frame size for the 6' footers.

    They are King Cages, but those bottles get used on other cages too.



    Haha...not an outting, and not crap. Amen Sista!
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm1230126
    Rumpfy's.......he's gone German nuclear on seat post height! Great looking ride!

    It does seem that way, but its as intended. Take a look at other Phoeni. Phoenixes?

    And thanks!
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleCentury
    Nice looking rider! I need one of these some day.

    How is the balance between the toggle in the rear and the Avid mechanical in the front?

    Gratzie.

    The Avids are a bit spongier, but all things considering...pretty close in feel. Better than expected.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmikeynyc
    Nice build, glad that you like the ride and that you went for function over fashion because that bike was made to ride!

    I intend to ride it into the ground.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  14. #14
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    So I'm looking at the pics and notice the Hippietech sticker and wonder if this is one of the 1 inch conversions you mentioned in my fork rant a few days ago. But I notice no bolt on crown and can't imagine WTB stuck with 1 inch up through 95/96. But that head tube really looks smaller than 1 1/8. So is that a 1 inch conversion? What the heck does he do, press out the old steerer and press in a shimmed 1 inch?

    Hijack over.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  15. #15
    Fat City Michael
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    1995/6 WTB Phoenix Stealth Resto-mod.

    Rumpfy-I am using your build as an inspiration for the Phoenix frame/Type II fork that I have well hidden under my bed, but won't be able to fully build up until my 7 week old twins are well, a bit older...I plan to do some period correct stuff, some old school bits and some random modern touches per my typical builds...in case you're wondering yes I managed to find a 1&1/8" threadless stem that's got a jacked up rise/reach for me and it's also good to know that the 15" size with the jacked seat post will also work for me, as I was a little worried that it may be a bit small for me since the previous owner of this particular frameset rides a smaller size bike than I do

    What size tires are you running, they look FAT and seem to just clear the Toggle-Cam?
    FATMIKEYNYC

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    So I'm looking at the pics and notice the Hippietech sticker and wonder if this is one of the 1 inch conversions you mentioned in my fork rant a few days ago. But I notice no bolt on crown and can't imagine WTB stuck with 1 inch up through 95/96. But that head tube really looks smaller than 1 1/8. So is that a 1 inch conversion? What the heck does he do, press out the old steerer and press in a shimmed 1 inch?

    Hijack over.

    No hijack at all.

    This particular fork is a 1 1/8".

    I had a blue SID that I ran on my Slingshot(s) that I bought from Hippie-Tech that was a 1" though...

    Rock Shox did put out a 1" SID in 98 and 99. I was fortunate enough to get one from him before the 1" SID market got hot. He might still have some left, but I think the prices have adjusted accordingly. But don't quote me on that.

    Give him a call. He's a nice guy. Easy to talk to.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmikeynyc
    Rumpfy-I am using your build as an inspiration for the Phoenix frame/Type II fork that I have well hidden under my bed, but won't be able to fully build up until my 7 week old twins are well, a bit older...I plan to do some period correct stuff, some old school bits and some random modern touches per my typical builds...in case you're wondering yes I managed to find a 1&1/8" threadless stem that's got a jacked up rise/reach for me and it's also good to know that the 15" size with the jacked seat post will also work for me, as I was a little worried that it may be a bit small for me since the previous owner of this particular frameset rides a smaller size bike than I do

    What size tires are you running, they look FAT and seem to just clear the Toggle-Cam?

    Well I'm flattered.

    Do you know if your Phoenix is suspension corrected or not? Headtube length should tell you for sure. Having a Type II on there will be awesome and whatever else you have to do to make it user friendly.

    Tires are 2.0's Its a close fit, but there's room to wiggle.

    Here are the Phoenix specs (courtesy of SSMike)

    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    No hijack at all.

    This particular fork is a 1 1/8".

    I had a blue SID that I ran on my Slingshot(s) that I bought from Hippie-Tech that was a 1" though...

    Rock Shox did put out a 1" SID in 98 and 99. I was fortunate enough to get one from him before the 1" SID market got hot. He might still have some left, but I think the prices have adjusted accordingly. But don't quote me on that.

    Give him a call. He's a nice guy. Easy to talk to.
    Thank Eric. Yeah, I think I have seen two original 1 inch SIDs pop up on eBay in the last few years. I keep watching, believe me. Maybe I'll see what Hippie has to say after I get the current 1 inch SID/Judy project wrapped up.

    So one more thing, have you actually ridden much with a Dura Ace or other older road rear der offroad? We used to try that back in the late 80s pre XT short cage and the spring tension just wasn't strong enough to hold up against the roots and rocks in the southeast. Have you had better luck?
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  19. #19
    Fat City Michael
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    1995/6 WTB Phoenix Stealth Resto-mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    Well I'm flattered.

    Do you know if your Phoenix is suspension corrected or not? Headtube length should tell you for sure. Having a Type II on there will be awesome and whatever else you have to do to make it user friendly.

    Tires are 2.0's Its a close fit, but there's room to wiggle.

    Here are the Phoenix specs (courtesy of SSMike)

    Thanks Rumpfy-I will have to measure the headtube or just ask the previous owner if my Phoenix is suspension corrected or not, but I've already got the Type II, so I'm not thinking of using suspension...I'll keep that in mind about the tire size but as I said this is a LONG term project.
    FATMIKEYNYC

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    Thank Eric. Yeah, I think I have seen two original 1 inch SIDs pop up on eBay in the last few years. I keep watching, believe me. Maybe I'll see what Hippie has to say after I get the current 1 inch SID/Judy project wrapped up.

    So one more thing, have you actually ridden much with a Dura Ace or other older road rear der offroad? We used to try that back in the late 80s pre XT short cage and the spring tension just wasn't strong enough to hold up against the roots and rocks in the southeast. Have you had better luck?

    Cutting the crown off of a newer SID and replacing it with the 1" Judy crown is a cool fix. The pics from those who have tried it on this forum...looks pretty clean.


    I run a 7700 DA on my Ventana and I ride that bike hard. No issues at all. No troubles with the 7400 yet, though its only been on ride, mostly fire road. We'll see how it does on rougher, more tech trails.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatmikeynyc
    Thanks Rumpfy-I will have to measure the headtube or just ask the previous owner if my Phoenix is suspension corrected or not, but I've already got the Type II, so I'm not thinking of using suspension...I'll keep that in mind about the tire size but as I said this is a LONG term project.

    Aye. Running the rigid fork on the suspension corrected frame might steepen things up a bit. Not sure how much that will affect handling...kind of the reverse of running suspension on a non-suspension corrected frame.


    Looking forward to seeing your finished product...in 20012.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushpig
    Very nice. I'd prefer it with the decals, but ...
    If someone ever needs decals: I have them made recently, but the later ones with WTB on the dt and Phoenix on the tt. Also includes the 140 rear spacing decal for left chainstay. Gil M on Retrobike did it for me. Get in touch with him.

    Nice bike Eric. Enjoy it

  23. #23
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    Great, Rumpfy - now everyone's scrambling to find their own Phoenix I still believe the Phoenix is, quite possibly, the best riding frames of all time. Magical ride qualities. Nice job on the build. The front brake probably feels "mushy" because of the brake levers are designed to work with canti brakes and your disc brake was designed to work with v-levers. You could get an Avid road caliper and it will feel like it's supposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by gm1230126
    .......he's gone German nuclear on seat post height!
    The Phoenix was designed to be run with a lot of seat post exposed. Typically, you would ride a size that was much smaller - Rumpfy's 15" vs his standard 20" (or thereabouts) frame sizes. The big oversized post allows you to do this. This bike below is a 12" frame and it still has around 6" of seat post in the frame.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    The front brake probably feels "mushy" because of the brake levers are designed to work with canti brakes and your disc brake was designed to work with v-levers. You could get an Avid road caliper and it will feel like it's supposed to.
    That is a road caliper. He just needs to fiddle with setup a bit. Mine felt mushy too at the beginning and I started to feel like they were junk, but I messed around with pad spacing and cable setup and now I actually like them quite a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    That is a road caliper. He just needs to fiddle with setup a bit. Mine felt mushy too at the beginning and I started to feel like they were junk, but I messed around with pad spacing and cable setup and now I actually like them quite a bit.
    Doh! That speed reading class did nothing for my comprehension. Doesn't that lever have the servo-wave feature?

  26. #26
    Carsten
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    I run a 7700 DA on my Ventana and I ride that bike hard. No issues at all. No troubles with the 7400 yet, though its only been on ride, mostly fire road. We'll see how it does on rougher, more tech trails.
    did you clamp the rear der cable in front or behind the bolt? that derailleur has a different ratio and usually doesn't work perfectly with other shifters than the DA. i think the trick was to clamp the cable in a different position and the floating upper pulley then does the rest.

    nice bike and the only one i feel tempted to have as alternative rider

    Carsten

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Doh! That speed reading class did nothing for my comprehension. Doesn't that lever have the servo-wave feature?

    yeah, that could be adding to the mush, but shouldnt do too much. the servo wave with the toggle cam is like having two cams. the toggle cam needs a little fine tuning, but Ive been anxious to try that combo.

    nice rig, Rumpfy.

    ...and the DA springs are the same as the other derailleurs as far as I know. Ive used them for years off road.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    ...and the DA springs are the same as the other derailleurs as far as I know. Ive used them for years off road.
    I think Carsten was talking about which side of the cable anchor bolt he has the derailleur cable clamped. Some of those old derailleurs did have a spring tension adjustment to increase the spring tension (as did some front derailleurs).

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    I think Carsten was talking about which side of the cable anchor bolt he has the derailleur cable clamped. Some of those old derailleurs did have a spring tension adjustment to increase the spring tension (as did some front derailleurs).

    no, it was IF52 saying the springs were too weak for mud use I think. You and your speed reading.

    Yeah, some of those RD's do have a different mechanical ratio and need to be altered a bit. I did this on one and posted pics somewhere.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    no, it was IF52 saying the springs were too weak for mud use I think. You and your speed reading.

    Yeah, some of those RD's do have a different mechanical ratio and need to be altered a bit. I did this on one and posted pics somewhere.
    I don't clearly recall but I think the spring at the cage pivot had lighter wire. Foggy memory. All I know is we got a lot more slap than with the regular XT derailleurs, even the later XT short cages. We messed around with spring position too, moving the spring to the stiffer position. Built a few hybrid rear derailleurs using XT deraillers with either 600EX or 105 short cages, can't remember right off, and they just didn't compare to the later XT short cage version. They would slap and just didn't seem quite right.
    Last edited by IF52; 09-07-2008 at 03:15 PM. Reason: for clarity
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  31. #31
    Witty McWitterson
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    Yep, sounds like what I liked about my(now ssmikes) Pheonix. Just magic to ride. Love the looks of what you've got Rumphy. Just looks 'right'. And running the D/A mech is a strike of genuis. I've been using Ultegra rear mechs for a few years now with NO issues. In fact, I think they run better than the 'rigth' stuff.

    ssmike, if you ever what to get the originaly color back on the bike, its this green. Before I had mine redone, the TT was showing its black base just like this one.
    Just a regular guy.

  32. #32
    Carsten
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    And running the D/A mech is a strike of genuis. I've been using Ultegra rear mechs for a few years now with NO issues. In fact, I think they run better than the 'rigth' stuff.
    the Ultegra and all other Shimano road rear ders have the same ratio as the Shimano MTB rear ders and work perfectly well with MTB shifters. only the 74** Dura Ace rear ders have a different ratio that does not work well with MTB shifters. clamping the cable in front of the pinch bolt helps a bit but i still found it sub-optimal with the M900 shifters.

    Carsten

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    Yep, sounds like what I liked about my(now ssmikes) Pheonix. Just magic to ride. Love the looks of what you've got Rumphy. Just looks 'right'. And running the D/A mech is a strike of genuis. I've been using Ultegra rear mechs for a few years now with NO issues. In fact, I think they run better than the 'rigth' stuff.

    ssmike, if you ever what to get the originaly color back on the bike, its this green. Before I had mine redone, the TT was showing its black base just like this one.
    Ah, I thought the champagne color was original - I like it just the way it is, but good to know the original was green. I've got a Type II and a roller cam waiting to be installed. Just need some time to fiddle and figure out the drop bar stem for it.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    Yep, sounds like what I liked about my(now ssmikes) Pheonix. Just magic to ride. Love the looks of what you've got Rumphy. Just looks 'right'. And running the D/A mech is a strike of genuis. I've been using Ultegra rear mechs for a few years now with NO issues. In fact, I think they run better than the 'rigth' stuff.

    ssmike, if you ever what to get the originaly color back on the bike, its this green. Before I had mine redone, the TT was showing its black base just like this one.

    Thanks Martini.

    This Phoenix was Fillet-Brazed inspired, so he should get that credit.


    Running the DA is kinda fun. Its juuust different enough, but still works great.
    -eric-

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    Wanted: NDS Suntour XC Pro Microdrive 175mm Crank Arm.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carsten
    the Ultegra and all other Shimano road rear ders have the same ratio as the Shimano MTB rear ders and work perfectly well with MTB shifters. only the 74** Dura Ace rear ders have a different ratio that does not work well with MTB shifters. clamping the cable in front of the pinch bolt helps a bit but i still found it sub-optimal with the M900 shifters.

    Carsten

    So far it shifts just fine for me. Cable is pinched behind/below. We'll see if that changes once things settle a bit.
    -eric-

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~martini~
    And running the D/A mech is a strike of genuis.
    Not to diminish Rumpfy's genius, but I thought that was a Ritchey thing. I know Ritchey typically ran a DA rear freehub in the mid 80s, but I thought he also did a piecemeal 'ultralight' parts pick as an option that included the DA rear der. No?
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF52
    Not to diminish Rumpfy's genius, but I thought that was a Ritchey thing. I know Ritchey typically ran a DA rear freehub in the mid 80s, but I thought he also did a piecemeal 'ultralight' parts pick as an option that included the DA rear der. No?

    no, they didnt offer a DA RD in a parts kit. not that I recall anyway. they did have a light Wheelsmith-built wheelset that had a 28h Ultegra front hub.

  38. #38
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    Awesome dude. I'm planning on running a DA rear der. on my restomod. Good to know it will work.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    no, they didnt offer a DA RD in a parts kit. not that I recall anyway. they did have a light Wheelsmith-built wheelset that had a 28h Ultegra front hub.
    I agree with you on the rd - the short cage of choice was the 600 and then the Ultegra, and the first bikes I saw it on were Cunninghams and Ibis, though it was probably wide spread since it was so cool. I think the reference was to the earlier use of the Dura Ace rear hubs being used on production Ritchey's, i.e. pre P series. They did it for a while when the DA freehub was the only and the best plus gave more gearage.

  40. #40
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    My 85 Otis is running DA hubs. Pretty sure the wheelset is original to the bike.
    -eric-

    http://www.rumpfy.com
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumpfy
    My 85 Otis is running DA hubs. Pretty sure the wheelset is original to the bike.
    A bunch of Ritcheys came Spec'ed with DA hubs in 85 too.

  42. #42
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    Yeah, the DA rear hub was standard, but I pretty clearly remember a few customers with 86-87ish Ritcheys that had DA rear ders. Must have been something we or they tacked on for the badness factor of running a short cage pre XT short cage. They were existing customers when I started working at the shop, so the installs would have been before my time there.
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushpig
    A bunch of Ritcheys came Spec'ed with DA hubs in 85 too.

    yep, a design that was both lighter and stronger. lots of bent axles in the early days.

    edit: and here's an old thread with lots of short cage talk. Too bad I dont have those pictures anymore:

    a little Syncros, a dash of WTB, and a bit of ti
    Last edited by Fillet-brazed; 09-08-2008 at 10:08 AM.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fillet-brazed
    yep, a design that was both lighter and stronger. lots of bent axles in the early days.
    And thankfully it trickled down to mtn bike parts. Odd looking back as it seems like mtn bike tech trickles down to road bikes these days, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by banks
    That is one big f'n dude!
    Yes I am!

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