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Thread: Rogue trails

  1. #1
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    Rogue trails

    please refrain from building ANY trails on land that you dont have explicit permission

    our whole project at bear brook is in jeapordy because the state is pissed at all the rogue trails in state owned land, not just at Bear Brook but throughout the state.

    keep in mind, if we piss them off they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property

    Dan Sloan

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    be interested to know where all these "rogue" trails are that are in question. Not as in, give me directions to them so I can ride them, but where they are saying trails are being built on state land without permission...
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    saltmarsh pond state park, bear brook state park, massabesic water shed to name a few

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    where the heck is saltmarsh? I think the state also needs to realize that rogue trails are a result partially of complete abandonment of creating and maintaining trails as well.... massivebeestick is a whole other issue...
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    So dan0, would the state really trash a legitimate trail system because people are building illegally in the area? It seems even the most unhelpful land managers are realising that illegal trails are an indication of need. Scrapping authorised projects just leads to more illegal trail building.

    We are lucky here in that our LM has seen the need, realised it can be addressed and is very supportive. They also know that it would be open slather for rogue building if they were not cooperative. The shovel can be used for good or evil and it is up to your state to understand it is their choice under scrutiny here, not that of illegal builders.

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    Times have changed for sure. In Vermont, most of the legal riding we have on state land was built or partially built illegally then grandfathered in basically, with new work needing permission. Now as the activity that has always occured continues on state lands with no agreements in place it threatens the relationship state and local bike clubs have with state land managers. It's difficult to tell people to stop this illegal building and have them listen. Go back 15 years and the very people who now manage the legal networks were doing the exact same thing as the illegal trail "builders", and now all their stuff has been legitamized. Now they have to tell people this is no longer accptable behavior. Kind of a "Do as I say, not as I did" situation. Hopefully these folks will get involved more with the efforts that go into the up-keep and building of the many legal networks going in instead of staying on the fray and undermining the efforts of the greater community. Hope nothing negative comes out of it for you.....or us.

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    put yourself in their shoes, how would you like it if someone decided to run a trail for 4 wheelers through your property without asking?
    not all rogue trails are badly designed, but alot are, sometimes going through wetlands or sensitive areas.
    The bottom line is its their property, isnt it better to work with them and get trails rather than to piss them off and get banned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Times have changed for sure. In Vermont, most of the legal riding we have on state land was built or partially built illegally then grandfathered in basically, with new work needing permission. Now as the activity that has always occured continues on state lands with no agreements in place it threatens the relationship state and local bike clubs have with state land managers. It's difficult to tell people to stop this illegal building and have them listen. Go back 15 years and the very people who now manage the legal networks were doing the exact same thing as the illegal trail "builders", and now all their stuff has been legitamized. Now they have to tell people this is no longer accptable behavior. Kind of a "Do as I say, not as I did" situation. Hopefully these folks will get involved more with the efforts that go into the up-keep and building of the many legal networks going in instead of staying on the fray and undermining the efforts of the greater community. Hope nothing negative comes out of it for you.....or us.
    exactly right, although mtn biking has grown exponentially and there are alot more riders and builders than before.

    thing to remember is , if its alright for you to build illegal trails , is it ok for someone else to come in and log ? or build atv or 4 wheeler trails?
    either its ok or it isnt, we are not special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    So dan0, would the state really trash a legitimate trail system because people are building illegally in the area? It seems even the most unhelpful land managers are realising that illegal trails are an indication of need. Scrapping authorised projects just leads to more illegal trail building.

    We are lucky here in that our LM has seen the need, realised it can be addressed and is very supportive. They also know that it would be open slather for rogue building if they were not cooperative. The shovel can be used for good or evil and it is up to your state to understand it is their choice under scrutiny here, not that of illegal builders.

    well, if they ban bikes altogether it's easier to catch anyone riding roque trails because any biking is off limits

    would the state trash legitimate trails, not necessarily, but they could keep the trails for hiking and ban the offenders by banning bikes

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    I do understand the impact of unsustainable building, but turning on the people helping look after the land is hardly a sensible reaction. Also, be very clear about whose land it is - it is public land, it does not belong to the state. In your country and ours, people are fully sick of being excluded from land they rightly see as their own.

    Our work is in national park and while the local rangers have been aware of the illegal trail system in there for years, it has only been since the message of cooperation has come down from the state level (the state administers national parks rather than the federal gov) that we have seen an attitude of support develop out of looming confrontation. Better for all involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    I do understand the impact of unsustainable building, but turning on the people helping look after the land is hardly a sensible reaction. Also, be very clear about whose land it is - it is public land, it does not belong to the state. In your country and ours, people are fully sick of being excluded from land they rightly see as their own.

    Our work is in national park and while the local rangers have been aware of the illegal trail system in there for years, it has only been since the message of cooperation has come down from the state level (the state administers national parks rather than the federal gov) that we have seen an attitude of support develop out of looming confrontation. Better for all involved.
    public land that we hire the land managers to administer for us, otherwise it would be a free for all, if its ok to do what you want , its ok for everyone to do what they want
    and we dont want that do we?

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    Perhaps we have bought into departmental concerns that access always leads to abuse, rather than questioning it a little more? When authorities get the public onside and accessing the bush, they gain advocates. When they ban the public they get what they deserve. Perhaps your local advocacy group needs to ask permission to renovate a larger selection of trails including the rogue trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    Perhaps we have bought into departmental concerns that access always leads to abuse, rather than questioning it a little more? When authorities get the public onside and accessing the bush, they gain advocates. When they ban the public they get what they deserve. Perhaps your local advocacy group needs to ask permission to renovate a larger selection of trails including the rogue trails?
    we already did that and have permission, but now its in trouble , because of state wide rouge trail building on public lands.
    believe me, this has been alot of hard work, over 2 years, we finally got the green light to renovate Bear Brook, and have begun the work, but next years plans are in jeopardy, we have a meeting with them next month. the issue is roque trails. when dealing with the state you cant just go in guns blazing , we have developed a 5 year comprehensive plan to make bear brook a destination mtn. bike park, inclusive of all other park users. but we're still at their mercy. And their question is " why should we trust you to do this project when you cant even control your own members? just as we lump all ATV users into 1 group, they do the same with mtn. bikers. We are dealing with DRED, who controls all the state parks In NH, as well as the local park managers and foresters.
    The state has been really helpful and on our side but they wont be for long if people keep up the illegal trail building
    check out the mtn bikeing info on the states web site
    The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation : Bear Brook State Park

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    I'm not a trail builder, legal or illegal, but closing all state park trails seems like an empty threat. I am obviously not close to the bear brook project or any other trails, but aren't some of these trails/parks pay to play trails? How much revenue do we bring to the parks/state? Probably not huge, but NH isn't rolling in money. Plus we bring business/money to surrounding communities. I know revenue is off topic from rogue trails, but do you really think they would shut biking off in all parks? Serious question. From my outsiders pov, it seems like a far reach, but I could be way off.

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    Dan, are you sure it's just the rogue trails pissing them off? Or could some of it be their aggresive stance on logging in Bear Brook, they've been on a tear in the park. I bet they see
    trails and mtn bikers standing infront of their easy cash source. Is this Red Pine issue for real, or a good excuse to do more clear cutting?
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    That sounds quite dire, Dan0, good luck with the meeting. It wouldn't be popular, but if you know of a site under construction, you could consider some hidden trail cameras, the motion-sensor ones used for wildlife, and turning them in if you get any good pix. Some ski trail cutters over here were fined and I think it made more than a few people think twice about cutting unapproved trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    we already did that and have permission, but now its in trouble , because of state wide rouge trail building on public lands.
    believe me, this has been alot of hard work, over 2 years, we finally got the green light to renovate Bear Brook, and have begun the work, but next years plans are in jeopardy, we have a meeting with them next month. the issue is roque trails. when dealing with the state you cant just go in guns blazing , we have developed a 5 year comprehensive plan to make bear brook a destination mtn. bike park, inclusive of all other park users. but we're still at their mercy. And their question is " why should we trust you to do this project when you cant even control your own members? just as we lump all ATV users into 1 group, they do the same with mtn. bikers. We are dealing with DRED, who controls all the state parks In NH, as well as the local park managers and foresters.
    The state has been really helpful and on our side but they wont be for long if people keep up the illegal trail building
    check out the mtn bikeing info on the states web site
    The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation : Bear Brook State Park
    Mate, just by showing this level of concern you have cred with your land manager. You just have to make sure they see your concern.

    Threats come from the frustration of having to manage conflicting objectives - maybe in your case the directive to stop illegal trail building for motorised vehicles impacting on the public's desire to access and enjoy the land in less damaging ways (MTB), or even to stop building totally (and let the pirates take over).

    2 years is a blink to the bureaucracy. It has been something close to 20 years since land managers and builders started butting heads here.

    What land managers do not have is time and money to devote to new issues like MTB access. What they do have is time for organised volunteer (or pro) groups who take the pressure off them, to look after the land and achieve what we all want, a place to treasure and care for, enjoy and call "ours". A place where the public can go without causing problems or feel responsible for the actions of the idiot fringe!!

    If you have a problem getting that level of understanding from your LM, then I am sure that apart from myself and MTB Trailcare there will be many others reading this who will support your efforts to do the right thing.

    Good on you for posting your concerns

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    please refrain from building ANY trails on land that you dont have explicit permission

    our whole project at bear brook is in jeapordy because the state is pissed at all the rogue trails in state owned land, not just at Bear Brook but throughout the state.

    keep in mind, if we piss them off they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property

    Dan Sloan
    Dan, i have it on good authority, that when Trail Doc was banned from Sedona, he has been doing night time missions to your neck of the woods to build more rogue trails to satisfy his OCD, it has beeen reported that he has been seen roaming your area at night in camo gear digging up new trails and chopping trees down

    Ttail doc can you confirm or deny these alligations ?
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    Dan, are you sure it's just the rogue trails pissing them off? Or could some of it be their aggresive stance on logging in Bear Brook, they've been on a tear in the park. I bet they see
    trails and mtn bikers standing infront of their easy cash source. Is this Red Pine issue for real, or a good excuse to do more clear cutting?

    I think its for real, they already had a plan for logging the park thats been iin the works for years, Ive seen the map

    the problem with the red pine scale is that there is no natural enimies and it spreads by birds, so if they log now before the birds return they hope to stop the spread, and by cutting now before the trees are dead they can also sell the lumber.
    they may even alter their plans for other logging because of this as they dont want too much cutting.

    FYI I was told by the higher ups that bear brook is a park in name only, its actually a state forrest

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    guys
    Im on your side, Im just asking for your help . help us get this done and the park will be a better place for us all.
    nothing good ever came out of pissing the state off

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    a very childish response from the powers that be.


    Greg
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    We are also having issues with this, although not with NH State agencies. Unauthorized trails on land owned by the President of the local land trust does not help our credibility with an important ally. It's no fun being in damage control mode.

    The old credo "it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" needs to fall by the wayside. The irony is that many of these landowners are super nice and would likely say go for it and have fun, but they are justifiably offended when someone starts digging on their land w/o asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogreg View Post
    a very childish response from the powers that be.
    DanO wrote "they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property" but I don't think he's saying the regulators at the State ever made that threat. I'm sure they are trying to get us to police ourselves and want to know how we're going to address this problem.

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    Hi DanO, maybe the state should go back to the history books.

    As part of the Public Works Program, in1935 Bear Brook was selected for development as a "recreational demonstration area"

    Please tell DRED, Let's demonstrate 100 miles of Singletrack by 2035 for the parks 100th year Anniversary. Gate, Campground, and Event revenue would increase substantially.
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    I see it as a complete and utter empty threat. And as usual the LM trying to flex the only muscle he has to let it be known he's not happy and to get us all to do things how he wants.. "or else". Bear brook has been a premiere mountain biking destination in NH for well over a decade and gets quite a bit of revenue from it. I personally think this LM would have the door hit him in the ass on the way out if he even tried to close bear brook to mountain bikers... I think the threat that is real, is possibly any new trail development hence the "plan" being in jeopardy. Honestly though, I see this threat as an insult to the local mtb community and organization. And if I was at that meeting, that is the stance I would take. After all the work volunteers have done to maintain and better the trails at bear brook he wants to piss in your face and threaten improving the land that he's "managing" because a couple "rogue trail builders" are out there... Sorry, but I can't stand blatant ignorance and stupidity... If I were you, I'd have some balls and tell him after everything we've done to work together your going to let a couple people that we don't even know ruin bettering the land that you manage for the people of this state to enjoy.?!?!?!...
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    This doesn't add up.

    nhstateparks.org/explore/state-parks/bear-brook-state-park.aspx

    That page shows off the NEMBA work and really sells that BB is a Mtn bike destination. I get that they are concerned about rogue trails as they should be, but they need to know they are preaching to the choir by *****ing at SNH Nemba. It seems like someone was in a pissy mood and felt like lashing out at the only "visible" presence they could get at.

    What I think would be helpful is to have NEMBAfest come back to BB and really make sure it's generating massive revenue for the area. Invite the local restaurants and shops to have booths as well as the rolling circus tents from the manufacturers. With a large income from an established event that is lining the state's pocket every year, then we will have a lot more leverage. Cause as the saying goes, money talks and BS walks...

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    Just to clear something up.

    I bet they see
    trails and mtn bikers standing infront of their easy cash source. Is this Red Pine issue for real, or a good excuse to do more clear cutting?

    The comment above is just ignorant.

    Do some research on Forest and Lands and State Parks.
    http://www.nhdfl.org/new-hampshire-s...t-program.aspx

    The recreation side is just a small part of what DRED actually does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    DanO wrote "they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property" but I don't think he's saying the regulators at the State ever made that threat. I'm sure they are trying to get us to police ourselves and want to know how we're going to address this problem.
    When the words "Control your members" pops up, that's ignorant/childish language in my opinion.

    Obviously building trails illegally is wrong, and the people responsible should be dealt with, but a blanket threat of closing the park to all mtn. bike riders is equally wrong in my view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by offrhodes42 View Post
    Just to clear something up.

    I bet they see
    trails and mtn bikers standing infront of their easy cash source. Is this Red Pine issue for real, or a good excuse to do more clear cutting?

    The comment above is just ignorant.

    Do some research on Forest and Lands and State Parks.
    http://www.nhdfl.org/new-hampshire-s...t-program.aspx

    The recreation side is just a small part of what DRED actually does.
    •State-owned forests would serve as demonstrations of sound forestry principles;

    Some of the logging at Bear Brook is hardly sound foresty. The clear cutting off Podunk Rd is a total mess. It's so choke full of underbrush now, the land is scared, raped for some logs. It's growing back into the thickest crap you can't even walk through. There's sink holes, and all sorts of trenches left behind. Then they post some signs on how they're restoring native habitat, HAH!! You'd have to be ignorant to believe them signs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogreg View Post
    When the words "Control your members" pops up, that's ignorant/childish language in my opinion.

    Obviously building trails illegally is wrong, and the people responsible should be dealt with, but a blanket threat of closing the park to all mtn. bike riders is equally wrong in my view.
    I don't disagree with you Greg. I also don't believe anyone at DRED made any blanket threat. We are way too big of a resource for them to even think about shutting us out (which would be like fighting the tide). Without exception, no user group contributes to trail maintenance as much as mountain bikers.

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    One must realize that this is the gov't we're talking about. Logic takes a back seat to politics when it comes to dealing with them. I commend Dan, Matt, and all the NEMBA reps who have made a ton of progress with the State in the last few years, doing things that I'm sure feels like selling their souls at times to improve mountain biking for all of us.

    -Pete
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    Sell your souls for singletrack!! thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by radair View Post
    DanO wrote "they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property" but I don't think he's saying the regulators at the State ever made that threat. I'm sure they are trying to get us to police ourselves and want to know how we're going to address this problem.

    that is correct, that was in reply to someone asking what could they do

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlogic311 View Post
    This doesn't add up.

    nhstateparks.org/explore/state-parks/bear-brook-state-park.aspx

    That page shows off the NEMBA work and really sells that BB is a Mtn bike destination. I get that they are concerned about rogue trails as they should be, but they need to know they are preaching to the choir by *****ing at SNH Nemba. It seems like someone was in a pissy mood and felt like lashing out at the only "visible" presence they could get at.

    What I think would be helpful is to have NEMBAfest come back to BB and really make sure it's generating massive revenue for the area. Invite the local restaurants and shops to have booths as well as the rolling circus tents from the manufacturers. With a large income from an established event that is lining the state's pocket every year, then we will have a lot more leverage. Cause as the saying goes, money talks and BS walks...
    NEMBA fest is at Kingdom trails for 2 more years, we are working on the Bear Brook boogie again, hopefully as a 2 day event

    as far as revenue , thats exactly the point we made in our presentation, kingdom had 50000 visitors in 2008 @ $15 a head. Thats why the agreed to let us make BB a destination Mtn bike park

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    lets not get all wound up,I'm just relaying what Ive been told. We are having a meeting with DRED next month and with the BB authorities after that. Hopefully its all just a big misunderstanding.
    The state never threatened to ban us, I said that they could in a response to someone asking what they could do about it.
    Its not out of the realm of possibilities though, ATVs are banned aren't they?

    all I ask is PLEASE no more rogue trails on Govt property , let us get this project underway, you wont be sorry, bear brook will be a kick ass destination if we succeed
    they already have a first class camp ground, lots of ponds for swimming , fishing , boating. It could really be a nice vacation spot for the whole family, with shopping , dh parks, and all kinds of other activities within a 30 min drive

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    •State-owned forests would serve as demonstrations of sound forestry principles;

    Some of the logging at Bear Brook is hardly sound foresty. The clear cutting off Podunk Rd is a total mess. It's so choke full of underbrush now, the land is scared, raped for some logs. It's growing back into the thickest crap you can't even walk through. There's sink holes, and all sorts of trenches left behind. Then they post some signs on how they're restoring native habitat, HAH!! You'd have to be ignorant to believe them signs.

    that , my friend is a whole nother can of worms.

    DRED stands for Dept. of resource and economic development, that means they are in charge of maximising the revenue stream from the states resources. They will do what they want to do, no sense starting a no win fight. My hope is that with our plan we will bring in far more money than they ever could by logging

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile View Post
    One must realize that this is the gov't we're talking about. Logic takes a back seat to politics when it comes to dealing with them. I commend Dan, Matt, and all the NEMBA reps who have made a ton of progress with the State in the last few years, doing things that I'm sure feels like selling their souls at times to improve mountain biking for all of us.

    -Pete

    life is full of compromises, if I had my way I would build kick ass dh style trails , but, unless you want to be out there constantly , those type trails fall apart quickly and require way more maintenance than you or I would be willing to put in
    plus Highland is only 35 mins away...

    If I were rich I'd buy a huge tract of land and build a mtn bikers paridise, but since I need to use other peoples property I have to abide by their rules

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogreg View Post
    When the words "Control your members" pops up, that's ignorant/childish language in my opinion.

    Obviously building trails illegally is wrong, and the people responsible should be dealt with, but a blanket threat of closing the park to all mtn. bike riders is equally wrong in my view.
    problem is how do you catch the culprits? by the time they find out , the trails in use
    they are complaining to the one organization that unites most riders

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogreg View Post
    a very childish response from the powers that be.


    Greg
    maybe but I seem to remember you were quite pissed off a couple of years ago when someone was sanatizing some of the rock features at HP. Imagine how mad you would have been if you had owned or been in charge of the property

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    maybe but I seem to remember you were quite pissed off a couple of years ago when someone was sanatizing some of the rock features at HP. Imagine how mad you would have been if you had owned or been in charge of the property
    I hear you and sympathize 100% with your issue. Please don't get my dislike for "threats" (implied or said directly) confused with support of what you are trying to accomplish in BB. What you guys have done thus far is amazing and worthy of praise to the highest degree. Hats off.

    Personally I took matters into my own hands and dealt with the problem at HP, lets just say that boulder altering has stopped, at least from that group.
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    problem is how do you catch the culprits? by the time they find out , the trails in use
    they are complaining to the one organization that unites most riders

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    life is full of compromises, if I had my way I would build kick ass dh style trails , but, unless you want to be out there constantly , those type trails fall apart quickly and require way more maintenance than you or I would be willing to put in
    plus Highland is only 35 mins away...

    If I were rich I'd buy a huge tract of land and build a mtn bikers paridise, but since I need to use other peoples property I have to abide by their rules
    Whoops, please let me clarify the 'selling their souls' comment. It had nothing at all to do with the types of trails that are being built (XC singletrack is all I ride). It had everything to do with the fact that you're likely forced to bite your tongue on a frequent basis when dealing with the senselessness of the State workers. I doubt I'd have to fortitude to deal with those folks. That is all.

    Your work is veery much appreciated.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  44. #44
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    got Ya dan... I know it starts crap on here, but still appreciate knowing what's goin on, even if it's behind the scenes... One other thing though... we don't necessarily need to build unsustainable DH type trails... there are ways of building long term sustainable flowing DH trails... such as this.... type of thing.. maybe one or two that anyone can ride, and maybe a rating system for trails so that you can call one expert only and have maybe a dedicated freeride trail...

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  45. #45
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedalphile View Post
    It had everything to do with the fact that you're likely forced to bite your tongue on a frequent basis when dealing with the senselessness of the State workers. I doubt I'd have to fortitude to deal with those folks. That is all.
    I am a State worker and you may mean no offense, but please do not put all of us in the same boat. I bust my ass on a daily basis working to spend less of your tax dollars.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishpitbull View Post
    The old rule is, If you build it we will come, if you don't build it, we will build it.
    LOL, Pure 24k gold....
    pitbull if you dont mind i might even use that as a signiture for a while
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    LOL, Pure 24k gold....
    pitbull if you dont mind i might even use that as a signiture for a while
    I would be honored.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by offrhodes42 View Post
    I am a State worker and you may mean no offense, but please do not put all of us in the same boat. I bust my ass on a daily basis working to spend less of your tax dollars.
    No offense meant, and in fact, I regret including the word 'people' as I don't know any of the people involved. My apologies.
    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  50. #50
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    Aren't some of the best trails in Bear Brook "Rogue Trails"? Hemlocks, Alpe D'huez, Itrail/hallmarsh. Are they now legit trails in the park, or still a grey area?
    beaver hunt

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