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Thread: Rogue trails

  1. #1
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    Rogue trails

    please refrain from building ANY trails on land that you dont have explicit permission

    our whole project at bear brook is in jeapordy because the state is pissed at all the rogue trails in state owned land, not just at Bear Brook but throughout the state.

    keep in mind, if we piss them off they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property

    Dan Sloan

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    be interested to know where all these "rogue" trails are that are in question. Not as in, give me directions to them so I can ride them, but where they are saying trails are being built on state land without permission...
    determined to put the "mountain" back in "MOUNTAIN BIKING!!!" "HIT IT!"
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    saltmarsh pond state park, bear brook state park, massabesic water shed to name a few

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    where the heck is saltmarsh? I think the state also needs to realize that rogue trails are a result partially of complete abandonment of creating and maintaining trails as well.... massivebeestick is a whole other issue...
    determined to put the "mountain" back in "MOUNTAIN BIKING!!!" "HIT IT!"
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    So dan0, would the state really trash a legitimate trail system because people are building illegally in the area? It seems even the most unhelpful land managers are realising that illegal trails are an indication of need. Scrapping authorised projects just leads to more illegal trail building.

    We are lucky here in that our LM has seen the need, realised it can be addressed and is very supportive. They also know that it would be open slather for rogue building if they were not cooperative. The shovel can be used for good or evil and it is up to your state to understand it is their choice under scrutiny here, not that of illegal builders.

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    Times have changed for sure. In Vermont, most of the legal riding we have on state land was built or partially built illegally then grandfathered in basically, with new work needing permission. Now as the activity that has always occured continues on state lands with no agreements in place it threatens the relationship state and local bike clubs have with state land managers. It's difficult to tell people to stop this illegal building and have them listen. Go back 15 years and the very people who now manage the legal networks were doing the exact same thing as the illegal trail "builders", and now all their stuff has been legitamized. Now they have to tell people this is no longer accptable behavior. Kind of a "Do as I say, not as I did" situation. Hopefully these folks will get involved more with the efforts that go into the up-keep and building of the many legal networks going in instead of staying on the fray and undermining the efforts of the greater community. Hope nothing negative comes out of it for you.....or us.

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    put yourself in their shoes, how would you like it if someone decided to run a trail for 4 wheelers through your property without asking?
    not all rogue trails are badly designed, but alot are, sometimes going through wetlands or sensitive areas.
    The bottom line is its their property, isnt it better to work with them and get trails rather than to piss them off and get banned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Times have changed for sure. In Vermont, most of the legal riding we have on state land was built or partially built illegally then grandfathered in basically, with new work needing permission. Now as the activity that has always occured continues on state lands with no agreements in place it threatens the relationship state and local bike clubs have with state land managers. It's difficult to tell people to stop this illegal building and have them listen. Go back 15 years and the very people who now manage the legal networks were doing the exact same thing as the illegal trail "builders", and now all their stuff has been legitamized. Now they have to tell people this is no longer accptable behavior. Kind of a "Do as I say, not as I did" situation. Hopefully these folks will get involved more with the efforts that go into the up-keep and building of the many legal networks going in instead of staying on the fray and undermining the efforts of the greater community. Hope nothing negative comes out of it for you.....or us.
    exactly right, although mtn biking has grown exponentially and there are alot more riders and builders than before.

    thing to remember is , if its alright for you to build illegal trails , is it ok for someone else to come in and log ? or build atv or 4 wheeler trails?
    either its ok or it isnt, we are not special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    So dan0, would the state really trash a legitimate trail system because people are building illegally in the area? It seems even the most unhelpful land managers are realising that illegal trails are an indication of need. Scrapping authorised projects just leads to more illegal trail building.

    We are lucky here in that our LM has seen the need, realised it can be addressed and is very supportive. They also know that it would be open slather for rogue building if they were not cooperative. The shovel can be used for good or evil and it is up to your state to understand it is their choice under scrutiny here, not that of illegal builders.

    well, if they ban bikes altogether it's easier to catch anyone riding roque trails because any biking is off limits

    would the state trash legitimate trails, not necessarily, but they could keep the trails for hiking and ban the offenders by banning bikes

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    I do understand the impact of unsustainable building, but turning on the people helping look after the land is hardly a sensible reaction. Also, be very clear about whose land it is - it is public land, it does not belong to the state. In your country and ours, people are fully sick of being excluded from land they rightly see as their own.

    Our work is in national park and while the local rangers have been aware of the illegal trail system in there for years, it has only been since the message of cooperation has come down from the state level (the state administers national parks rather than the federal gov) that we have seen an attitude of support develop out of looming confrontation. Better for all involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    I do understand the impact of unsustainable building, but turning on the people helping look after the land is hardly a sensible reaction. Also, be very clear about whose land it is - it is public land, it does not belong to the state. In your country and ours, people are fully sick of being excluded from land they rightly see as their own.

    Our work is in national park and while the local rangers have been aware of the illegal trail system in there for years, it has only been since the message of cooperation has come down from the state level (the state administers national parks rather than the federal gov) that we have seen an attitude of support develop out of looming confrontation. Better for all involved.
    public land that we hire the land managers to administer for us, otherwise it would be a free for all, if its ok to do what you want , its ok for everyone to do what they want
    and we dont want that do we?

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    Perhaps we have bought into departmental concerns that access always leads to abuse, rather than questioning it a little more? When authorities get the public onside and accessing the bush, they gain advocates. When they ban the public they get what they deserve. Perhaps your local advocacy group needs to ask permission to renovate a larger selection of trails including the rogue trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    Perhaps we have bought into departmental concerns that access always leads to abuse, rather than questioning it a little more? When authorities get the public onside and accessing the bush, they gain advocates. When they ban the public they get what they deserve. Perhaps your local advocacy group needs to ask permission to renovate a larger selection of trails including the rogue trails?
    we already did that and have permission, but now its in trouble , because of state wide rouge trail building on public lands.
    believe me, this has been alot of hard work, over 2 years, we finally got the green light to renovate Bear Brook, and have begun the work, but next years plans are in jeopardy, we have a meeting with them next month. the issue is roque trails. when dealing with the state you cant just go in guns blazing , we have developed a 5 year comprehensive plan to make bear brook a destination mtn. bike park, inclusive of all other park users. but we're still at their mercy. And their question is " why should we trust you to do this project when you cant even control your own members? just as we lump all ATV users into 1 group, they do the same with mtn. bikers. We are dealing with DRED, who controls all the state parks In NH, as well as the local park managers and foresters.
    The state has been really helpful and on our side but they wont be for long if people keep up the illegal trail building
    check out the mtn bikeing info on the states web site
    The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation : Bear Brook State Park

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    I'm not a trail builder, legal or illegal, but closing all state park trails seems like an empty threat. I am obviously not close to the bear brook project or any other trails, but aren't some of these trails/parks pay to play trails? How much revenue do we bring to the parks/state? Probably not huge, but NH isn't rolling in money. Plus we bring business/money to surrounding communities. I know revenue is off topic from rogue trails, but do you really think they would shut biking off in all parks? Serious question. From my outsiders pov, it seems like a far reach, but I could be way off.

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    Dan, are you sure it's just the rogue trails pissing them off? Or could some of it be their aggresive stance on logging in Bear Brook, they've been on a tear in the park. I bet they see
    trails and mtn bikers standing infront of their easy cash source. Is this Red Pine issue for real, or a good excuse to do more clear cutting?
    beaver hunt

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    That sounds quite dire, Dan0, good luck with the meeting. It wouldn't be popular, but if you know of a site under construction, you could consider some hidden trail cameras, the motion-sensor ones used for wildlife, and turning them in if you get any good pix. Some ski trail cutters over here were fined and I think it made more than a few people think twice about cutting unapproved trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    we already did that and have permission, but now its in trouble , because of state wide rouge trail building on public lands.
    believe me, this has been alot of hard work, over 2 years, we finally got the green light to renovate Bear Brook, and have begun the work, but next years plans are in jeopardy, we have a meeting with them next month. the issue is roque trails. when dealing with the state you cant just go in guns blazing , we have developed a 5 year comprehensive plan to make bear brook a destination mtn. bike park, inclusive of all other park users. but we're still at their mercy. And their question is " why should we trust you to do this project when you cant even control your own members? just as we lump all ATV users into 1 group, they do the same with mtn. bikers. We are dealing with DRED, who controls all the state parks In NH, as well as the local park managers and foresters.
    The state has been really helpful and on our side but they wont be for long if people keep up the illegal trail building
    check out the mtn bikeing info on the states web site
    The New Hampshire Division of Parks and Recreation : Bear Brook State Park
    Mate, just by showing this level of concern you have cred with your land manager. You just have to make sure they see your concern.

    Threats come from the frustration of having to manage conflicting objectives - maybe in your case the directive to stop illegal trail building for motorised vehicles impacting on the public's desire to access and enjoy the land in less damaging ways (MTB), or even to stop building totally (and let the pirates take over).

    2 years is a blink to the bureaucracy. It has been something close to 20 years since land managers and builders started butting heads here.

    What land managers do not have is time and money to devote to new issues like MTB access. What they do have is time for organised volunteer (or pro) groups who take the pressure off them, to look after the land and achieve what we all want, a place to treasure and care for, enjoy and call "ours". A place where the public can go without causing problems or feel responsible for the actions of the idiot fringe!!

    If you have a problem getting that level of understanding from your LM, then I am sure that apart from myself and MTB Trailcare there will be many others reading this who will support your efforts to do the right thing.

    Good on you for posting your concerns

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan0 View Post
    please refrain from building ANY trails on land that you dont have explicit permission

    our whole project at bear brook is in jeapordy because the state is pissed at all the rogue trails in state owned land, not just at Bear Brook but throughout the state.

    keep in mind, if we piss them off they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property

    Dan Sloan
    Dan, i have it on good authority, that when Trail Doc was banned from Sedona, he has been doing night time missions to your neck of the woods to build more rogue trails to satisfy his OCD, it has beeen reported that he has been seen roaming your area at night in camo gear digging up new trails and chopping trees down

    Ttail doc can you confirm or deny these alligations ?
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    Dan, are you sure it's just the rogue trails pissing them off? Or could some of it be their aggresive stance on logging in Bear Brook, they've been on a tear in the park. I bet they see
    trails and mtn bikers standing infront of their easy cash source. Is this Red Pine issue for real, or a good excuse to do more clear cutting?

    I think its for real, they already had a plan for logging the park thats been iin the works for years, Ive seen the map

    the problem with the red pine scale is that there is no natural enimies and it spreads by birds, so if they log now before the birds return they hope to stop the spread, and by cutting now before the trees are dead they can also sell the lumber.
    they may even alter their plans for other logging because of this as they dont want too much cutting.

    FYI I was told by the higher ups that bear brook is a park in name only, its actually a state forrest

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    guys
    Im on your side, Im just asking for your help . help us get this done and the park will be a better place for us all.
    nothing good ever came out of pissing the state off

  21. #21
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    a very childish response from the powers that be.


    Greg
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  22. #22
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    We are also having issues with this, although not with NH State agencies. Unauthorized trails on land owned by the President of the local land trust does not help our credibility with an important ally. It's no fun being in damage control mode.

    The old credo "it's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission" needs to fall by the wayside. The irony is that many of these landowners are super nice and would likely say go for it and have fun, but they are justifiably offended when someone starts digging on their land w/o asking.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogreg View Post
    a very childish response from the powers that be.
    DanO wrote "they can ban mtn biking alltogether on state property" but I don't think he's saying the regulators at the State ever made that threat. I'm sure they are trying to get us to police ourselves and want to know how we're going to address this problem.

  24. #24
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    Hi DanO, maybe the state should go back to the history books.

    As part of the Public Works Program, in1935 Bear Brook was selected for development as a "recreational demonstration area"

    Please tell DRED, Let's demonstrate 100 miles of Singletrack by 2035 for the parks 100th year Anniversary. Gate, Campground, and Event revenue would increase substantially.
    beaver hunt

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    I see it as a complete and utter empty threat. And as usual the LM trying to flex the only muscle he has to let it be known he's not happy and to get us all to do things how he wants.. "or else". Bear brook has been a premiere mountain biking destination in NH for well over a decade and gets quite a bit of revenue from it. I personally think this LM would have the door hit him in the ass on the way out if he even tried to close bear brook to mountain bikers... I think the threat that is real, is possibly any new trail development hence the "plan" being in jeopardy. Honestly though, I see this threat as an insult to the local mtb community and organization. And if I was at that meeting, that is the stance I would take. After all the work volunteers have done to maintain and better the trails at bear brook he wants to piss in your face and threaten improving the land that he's "managing" because a couple "rogue trail builders" are out there... Sorry, but I can't stand blatant ignorance and stupidity... If I were you, I'd have some balls and tell him after everything we've done to work together your going to let a couple people that we don't even know ruin bettering the land that you manage for the people of this state to enjoy.?!?!?!...
    determined to put the "mountain" back in "MOUNTAIN BIKING!!!" "HIT IT!"
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