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  1. #1
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    Nice write up of Vermont riding in latest Dirt Rag

    Just wanted to say I enjoyed the article on the development of the various trail networks in Vermont. It was a decent read.

    Seems like there is a lot of momentum building for mtn biking in VT.

    I own a house near Sunday River and wish there was as much buzz about mountain biking/trail building as Vt has. That being said, Sunday River itself is doing a decent job with the downhill side of things and there is a new parcel in Bethel that is in the planning stages of trail development.

    Congrats to riders in VT, nice effort.

  2. #2
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    Nice write up of Vermont riding in latest Dirt Rag

    They have put forth a huge amount of effort all through the state to build sustainable trails, maintain them, and not least of all promote them. They are doing a great job. We do an amazing job of building trails around my town too, and they are super fun, but until we have a big enough system to handle it, we aren't going to really pursue trying to draw people in. Word of mouth for now, working so far, I think the word is getting out. If you are just over in bethel, come on over some time. Gorham, nh...good things are happening.


    "You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"

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    Sniggle, diggle, hurgle-durgle?
    Never heard those before and hope I never do. Other than that I enjoyed the article.

    I agree there is some amazing trail work being done. Definitely seeing more cars at trail heads this year than in the past few.
    Last edited by mattgVT; 09-28-2013 at 08:17 AM.

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    Sniggle=single track
    diggle=double track
    hurgle durgle=overly turny, lumpy, and generally not flowy single track.
    Snig-diggle=double track with a single track burned into it.

    These are a venacular that developed at Irie Cycles in the late 90s. The words became a shorthand when giving directions to the many miles of unmapped primative trails that put Stowe on the map. Hardy Avery, former owner of Irie, now Iride, and his partner Dana were giving directions out to tourists multple times a day. Over the course of the summer saying,"left on the single track, right on the double track, right on the next doulbe track..." became a mouthful and the words sniggle and diggle saved a few precious moments for them. It's a colorful slang that became part of our everyday, Mountainbike-centric lives. Back in those days in Stowe the shop rides happened every night after closing and would see a strong posse of 10 or more with regularity. It was an awesome and energetic scene to be a part of. When the SMBC was formed and really became a marketing machine as much as anything else, the slang spread. The english language has always been subject to such abbreviations and in England there are many kinds of slangs that attempt to streamline our cumbersome language. Seen Oceans 11? The English explosive expert speaks in rime sag the entire time. Most think it's funny or amusing....but, as they say, haters gonna hate. I havent read the article, but it's bitter sweet to hear it's now in print in a mag like DirtRag. In one sense, I feel a tinge of cremudgeony ownership to those phrases, but ultimately this is homage to a tiny, rootsy MTB specific shop that kept a bunch of poor-as-dirt ski bums rolling during the salad days of our youthful vagrant lives. Avery, and the SMBC have never stopped working toward getting people on bikes and out into the incredible backcountry that surrounds the towns they have lived and played in their whole lives. Be stoked for them...keep your negativity to yourself....don't be a player hater bro.

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    Not trying to hate, but I wouldn't call it common vernacular all over VT like the article makes it sound but could be because I ride solo most often - I think you're saying the same thing, kinda specific to a group of guys in that area. I like Stowe, and Iride, but that's not my regular area I guess so I don't hear it.

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    Nice history, Dave. It's cool to hear Stowe's story. First time I heard it. I could tell a very long, strange story about GMT. I'm eager to read the article if only I can find someplace near Pittsfield that carries Dirt Rag.

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    DaveVT.....ditto on the thanks for the story about the origins of the Stowe riding.....I appreciate the history .....have ridden the area a few times over the past few years...Zaab....would love to read the origins of Mtn Biking at GMT when you decided to put it out there.....you have told a few bits in the times I have caught you at the Vermont Mtn. Bike fest a few years ago....the one you were giving the t shirts away at...and on the trail twice when we talked.....
    There are two paths you can go by but in the long run........

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    DaveVt - Time to re-post old "Sniggle" vid with the Parliament soundtrack.

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    b2bPromo - YouTube
    Sniggle Unrest....a bunch of riding from those ays with a title that makes fun of ourselves. The roots of Stowe MTB go deeper. We were not the original guard, just held the torch and have mostly passed it on. Iride, Skiers Shop, AJs is doing a great job keeping the momentum as is the SMBC.

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    it was not untill I worked for Dana and rode with him and hardy that I ever heard this as well. the OG crew in stowe for sure uses it though.......

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    Jeff, when building season is over I'll try to write the story in it's totality just because its such a unique situation and pretty funny. A lot of the story is still ahead, though, I'm sure. Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    it was not untill I worked for Dana and rode with him and hardy that I ever heard this as well. the OG crew in stowe for sure uses it though.......
    Lots of people now use what was built by, and kept running by that crew either as volunteers before the SMBC, and later as paid labor. Quite a scene is being created and that has certainly changed the vibe there since BITD. Persnally, I find it a little sad to ride alot of the old trail. Kind of like seeing your old sweetheart again after many years and realizing the whole town has banged her, and that sweetie you once loved is gone forever. She sure is gettin a makeover these days though. Not what it used to be but a lot of fun from what I'm hearing.

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    quite honestly when I moved to stowe broken sweenies and stick house were some of my least favorite trails ever. (being a XC angled 26 inch SS with skinny tires did not help, your SS dave would be so much better!)

    but now i like hte old beat trails. They are fun, they are tough, its hard to ride them fast for all the right reasons....they also tend to not have guide stones :P

    The new upper bear's trail is the future I like it and brooke's new trails is slightly less jumpy but still tons of fun but a great hammer fest and open ups new ways to ride the old trails.

    like out and on brooks new trail, down Zog, then down charlies, up the cady hill road climb to rooty downs, all the ways back to the root loops, then back on brooke's new trail. Its also made riding to the high school to get to trapps/adams camp with my now 4 month into MTBing girlfriend much less of a chore. let just say the Root loops were slightly trying for her...... more trail is always good but this new stuff is seriously primo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    quite honestly when I moved to stowe broken sweenies and stick house were some of my least favorite trails ever. (being a XC angled 26 inch SS with skinny tires did not help, your SS dave would be so much better!)

    but now i like hte old beat trails. They are fun, they are tough, its hard to ride them fast for all the right reasons....they also tend to not have guide stones :P

    The new upper bear's trail is the future I like it and brooke's new trails is slightly less jumpy but still tons of fun but a great hammer fest and open ups new ways to ride the old trails.

    like out and on brooks new trail, down Zog, then down charlies, up the cady hill road climb to rooty downs, all the ways back to the root loops, then back on brooke's new trail. Its also made riding to the high school to get to trapps/adams camp with my now 4 month into MTBing girlfriend much less of a chore. let just say the Root loops were slightly trying for her...... more trail is always good but this new stuff is seriously primo.
    Lot's of new routes possible now. Now if we could tighten up the old school trails like Charlies, StickHouse ect. I was thinking guidestones are what is needed. Chralies is over 20 feet wide in places. Be nice if it was singletrack again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Lot's of new routes possible now. Now if we could tighten up the old school trails like Charlies, StickHouse ect. I was thinking guidestones are what is needed. Chralies is over 20 feet wide in places. Be nice if it was singletrack again.
    as long as you do not put outside of the turn guide stone in it work. apex one work, but outside of the turn ones fing suck becuase you can not corner and use every bit of room with your outside foot down.... nor can you jump on the pedals out of the turn.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    as long as you do not put outside of the turn guide stone in it work. apex one work, but outside of the turn ones fing suck becuase you can not corner and use every bit of room with your outside foot down.... nor can you jump on the pedals out of the turn.
    You mean you can't. I have ab****ely no problems on extensively guide stoned trails...I just stay on the trail and miss the rocks and stumps. Where I grew up riding, all the trails arelined with rocks and jumbles of rocks. I didn't expect someone to move them for me or sanitize the trails so I can over cook turns and fly off the tread wherever I lost control. It sounds like you really have to brake more before cornering and you will not be on the outside edge of the tread at the end of the turn. Keep workin at it, you'll get there.

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    I can see the thread has changed direction but want to say the write up was awesome and its cool reading some old stories here. As a young guy its awesome imagining and hearing about the old stock and how they built the sport.

    Further more its fantastic to see a state embrace mountain biking so much. I wish more of New England would get on the ball, seeing as this is one of my favorite places. Such potential. Keep up the work VT, see you in a few weeks for classy October riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Snig-diggle=double track with a single track burned into it.
    A couple years ago I heard "Snubble" for a sniggled in diggle. IMHO I think this is a less hurgly-durgly way of saying snig-diggle :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtsingletrack View Post
    A couple years ago I heard "Snubble" for a sniggled in diggle. IMHO I think this is a less hurgly-durgly way of saying snig-diggle :P
    Alas, no. Snubble=singletrack that has become double track due to overuse and poor line choice avoiding the tech feature the original line was meant to include. Used in a sentence, "Ridden Charlie's lately?" "Yea, pretty snubbley..kinda sad."

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceboxsteve View Post
    I can see the thread has changed direction but want to say the write up was awesome and its cool reading some old stories here. As a young guy its awesome imagining and hearing about the old stock and how they built the sport.

    Further more its fantastic to see a state embrace mountain biking so much. I wish more of New England would get on the ball, seeing as this is one of my favorite places. Such potential. Keep up the work VT, see you in a few weeks for classy October riding.
    I do apologize for enguaging what's his name in his endless crusade against the evil of guide stoners. Be aware, at the Leaf Blower there will be quite a few of them on the group rides. What made VT riding what it is was folks getting their hands dirty both litterally and figuratively. Raking and digging beyond blistered hands. From selectboard meeting after selectboard meeting. Litterally living in poverty to have less work and more riding. Caring and being passionate about something as rediculous as riding your bike around thru the woods in circles. The wheel is magic. Gyroscopic. Tranformative. Transportive. When it gets you deep in your inner ear....that's it. Your done. It makes flight almost possible. It allows you to tear through our ancient natural enviornment like a wild animal hot on the heels of it's pray possible. It allows you to flee the things in life that hunt you, and escape. Like skis. Like wings. Ridin trail fills your concious mind so completely, you are free from concious thought and left only with improvisaton. Sometimes, when I'm riding, I litterally find I'm a drooling idiot....and I like it. Mountain biking. Dig it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Nice write up of Vermont riding in latest  Dirt Rag-iriebitd.jpg  


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    I'm relatively new to the Vermont scene, but it seems like, if anything, the momentum is building. Everywhere you look there're significant projects expanding the possibilities manyfold. I know the national forest alone has enough proposed trail to keep them digging for years. Truly exciting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    What made VT riding what it is was folks getting their hands dirty both litterally and figuratively. Raking and digging beyond blistered hands. From selectboard meeting after selectboard meeting. Litterally living in poverty to have less work and more riding. Caring and being passionate about something as rediculous as riding your bike around thru the woods in circles. The wheel is magic. Gyroscopic. Tranformative. Transportive. When it gets you deep in your inner ear....that's it. Your done. It makes flight almost possible. It allows you to tear through our ancient natural enviornment like a wild animal hot on the heels of it's pray possible. It allows you to flee the things in life that hunt you, and escape. Like skis. Like wings. Ridin trail fills your concious mind so completely, you are free from concious thought and left only with improvisaton. Sometimes, when I'm riding, I litterally find I'm a drooling idiot....and I like it. Mountain biking. Dig it.
    Nice, Dave!!

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    seriously dave guide stone FING suck and untill moving to stowe I never saw one in my whole life. I have rode mountain biking in more state and trails than you have including the only IMBA gold center in Park City Utah, which has not a singleguide stone on 400+ mile of trails.

    I am not over cooking turns I just prefer that the challenge of the trail be from the trail it self, and not from shit people put beside the trail. Alot of people feel this way in Stowe and yes I am the loudest of the anti guide stoners. when a trail flows right it does not need them...

    cases in point

    the new bears trail has not a single guide stone in the way, nor will Brookes new trail.

    Tony and Tamarack have guide stones but none ever feel like they are the way. same with The stuff in sterling valley or Mud City rapids, or The wall, all trails that the guide stone are not in the way.

    its in stark contrast to Pipeline and Kimmer's that have so many guide stones in the wrong place(Outside of the turn) that you can not corner with your feet down on the outside, and do not get me start on Luce Hill loop with guide stones hidden in the ferns.

    IMO I am winning the war, the new stuff going has no wrongly placed guide stones, and flows alot better for everyone riding it. The squeaky wheels get the grease and in my case the grease is less trails that do not flow and less guide stones. Lots of people agree with me, they are just scared to speak up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    seriously dave guide stone FING suck and untill moving to stowe I never saw one in my whole life. I have rode mountain biking in more state and trails than you have including the only IMBA gold center in Park City Utah, which has not a singleguide stone on 400+ mile of trails.

    I am not over cooking turns I just prefer that the challenge of the trail be from the trail it self, and not from shit people put beside the trail. Alot of people feel this way in Stowe and yes I am the loudest of the anti guide stoners. when a trail flows right it does not need them...

    cases in point

    the new bears trail has not a single guide stone in the way, nor will Brookes new trail.

    Tony and Tamarack have guide stones but none ever feel like they are the way. same with The stuff in sterling valley or Mud City rapids, or The wall, all trails that the guide stone are not in the way.

    its in stark contrast to Pipeline and Kimmer's that have so many guide stones in the wrong place(Outside of the turn) that you can not corner with your feet down on the outside, and do not get me start on Luce Hill loop with guide stones hidden in the ferns.

    IMO I am winning the war, the new stuff going has no wrongly placed guide stones, and flows alot better for everyone riding it. The squeaky wheels get the grease and in my case the grease is less trails that do not flow and less guide stones. Lots of people agree with me, they are just scared to speak up.
    I am confused. Does your Guide get stoned on the trails or are too stoned to guide the trails?

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    Haha, fair enough. You coming to the Leaf Blower? It'd be fun to thread the needle between some terrifying guide-stones with ya...
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    Jesus, Just go get a chunk of land --build your own trails...Out West if you go over the guide stone(no such thing) you are dead,,,

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    No, can't make that. I 'm not the only guide stoner out there, might be the most aggressive, but some of the faster ride leaders enjoy placing guide stones, being stoned guiders, and most impotantly enjoy when others get their guide stoned.

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    Now we are talking-- to be stoned or not be be stoned

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    I am the loudest of the anti guide stoners.
    Guess you're no going to the Leaf Blower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damnation View Post
    Now we are talking-- to be stoned or not be be stoned
    There is no question. Nothing lifts the soul of a guide stoner more then hearing someone shout out at the first chill spot, "I am a Guide Stoner!"

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    What would we do without the guided stone debate? Just don't shut down the inter-governing body of kick ass Vermont trails, with or without rocks. Guide stones or 20 foot wide mudbogs? I'll take the guide stones; it's the more sustainable thing to do, don't you know that's cool now?

    If people are wrecking on rocks, they should look at their riding style, rather than blame someone else for the boo-boo on their knee. Or they could buy kneepads, those are also cool now.

    I'm going to go throw a dart at the map now and determine which kick ass Vermont trail I'm going to ride tomorrow with my kick ass Vermont girlfriend.

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    While I agree, the guide stones can be slightly obnoxious at times, it's almost always when I blow my lines and screw up. The rest of the time, I don't even notice them. They are part of the trail, like it or not. If you had trouble dodging trees while riding, would you blame the trees?

    Regardless, I have much respect for the people that build and maintain our awesome trails. Thanks to all the folks that contribute.

    Back on topic, I'll have to look for that DirtRag. I'm pretty new to Stowe (4 years now), but I've been involved in establishing trails in other places I've lived that had zero support, so I understand what a challenge it can be. I've never heard anyone around using the "snibble" sort of terms, but then again, I always ride alone.

    To any of you old-timer Stowe area locals, thanks for the hard work back in the day getting things started and to everyone that keeps things moving. Cheers.

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    Next months Dirt Rag has an article featuring the biggest debate since wheel size, " Guide Stones: Yay or Nay?"

    MTB Action also looks into this heated topic with their article " How to crush guide stone laced trails with ease!"

    Not to be left out, Bike mag has images of freeriders jumping over guide stone trails and has a few images of rad dudes actually trying to ride the guide stones themselves instead of the actual trail.


    * wish I could be in VT today riding, great mtb weather right now.

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    the leaf blower is 35 buck to ride with slower riders, its honestly is not money well spent for me.

    FYI I am not wrecking and I am amoung the fastest people riding in stowe I just hate them Charlies was 20 feet wide because people rode it when it was a bog after the crazy rains in June...... guide stones would not have stopped that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    Charlies was 20 feet wide because people rode it when it was a bog after the crazy rains in June...... guide stones would not have stopped that.
    True dat. Maybe guide concertina wire would have worked, but it would have taken more than a few stones to keep people on the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    the leaf blower is 35 buck to ride with slower riders, its honestly is not money well spent for me.

    FYI I am not wrecking and I am amoung the fastest people riding in stowe I just hate them Charlies was 20 feet wide because people rode it when it was a bog after the crazy rains in June...... guide stones would not have stopped that.
    Hating something is a good reason to argue, really.

    Perhaps you should get the gang in Stowe to build you a trail, or like others have suggested, you could build a trail. Then you could have races. This would work for more recreational riders as well because we can enjoy the activity without being concerned about getting mowed down.

    There are plenty of places in Chittenden County where guide stones could easily deter people from drifting off the trail. It only take a small reroute to turn trail into a literal drainage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    the leaf blower is 35 buck to ride with slower riders, its honestly is not money well spent for me.

    FYI I am not wrecking and I am amoung the fastest people riding in stowe I just hate them Charlies was 20 feet wide because people rode it when it was a bog after the crazy rains in June...... guide stones would not have stopped that.
    35 dollars...TO PAY FOR TRAILS TO BE BUILT IN THE TOWN YOU LIVE IN!!!!! But instead of just asking for more money they invite you to come ride with the trail builders get a catered dinner after, anD likely some swag...all done by volunteers. You're right. Money not well spent for you.
    And nope on Charlies. Walked it last summer with Dwight wit some volunteers to tak about how to reclaim it. So this summer's wetness has nothing to do with the conditon of that trail.
    All I'm sayin is, slow down. Stop trying to get the fastest strava time on Kimmers or pipeline and enjoy the trails. Alot of the turns on thses trails are double apex. Alot of times the second part of the turn is steeper then the first. For me, I find I will set up to hit the first apex thinking the turn is going to open up from there on out only to get jammed up and having to apply brakes again and often times skidding the second part of the turn...or if I try and ride it ou w/o getting ackon te braks I end up exiting too fast and get pushed to the outside of the tread and narrowly miss a solid object be it tree or rock. When I keep my head up an look far enough ahead to allow proper judgement of a turn's severity I look past he second, steeper apex, brake more initially, but am able to exit the turn with more speed and in the center of the tread....and this is where the trail works. If you nail the corners and roll out of the turn gaining momentum thefollowing straight away flows beautifully. Kimmers, in particular, is pumpy and lively an there are some great long sections of no pedal, no brake riding. If you want to charge Kimmers, climb itThe guide stoes aren't in the wrong place. You're just need to use the brakes better to go faster. Many of those turn you almost completely stop to set up to exit with maximum speed. You need to put the strava away for a minute and learn how to ride smoothr.

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    Wait for it.....

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    Here's some info on what your $35 (SMBC member) $40 (non-member) gets you this year. What I'm listing below is in addition to riding with friends on really nice trails that might not be easily connected by non-locals. This is a festival style group ride, the goal is fun, not waving your d*ck.

    1. Mid-ride aid stations with: apples, honey stinger products, and water
    2. Post-ride meal from Just Delicious Catering in Hyde Park, VT, really good local meat and veggie food from the family that runs Applecheek Farm, not junk, right in line with the harvest theme.
    3. Delicious homemade harvest themed deserts (pies, crisps, cookies, and more)- made by my lady, her mom, and friends
    4. Adult beverages
    5. Custom wool SMBC sockguy socks
    6. Annual bike related contest, trivia, and games with chances to win Swag
    5. A damn good time riding your bike in a place we're lucky to live in and/or visit...

    This event is run nearly at cost (read: marked up by literally just a couple dollars over what it costs SMBC to run), designed to be fun for our awesome community of riders and visiting guests. Any profit that's made goes straight into the trails. There's no indication that what anyone is paying for is a guide...

    So riders of MTBR, it's gonna be yet another year of fun and hopefully stellar weather; if you can make it and swing it, the SMBC and riders who live in and love this area would be stoked to have you.

    LeafBlower info
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtsingletrack View Post
    Here's some info on what your $35 (SMBC member) $40 (non-member) gets you this year. What I'm listing below is in addition to riding with friends on really nice trails that might not be easily connected by non-locals. This is a festival style group ride, the goal is fun, not waving your d*ck.

    1. Mid-ride aid stations with: apples, honey stinger products, and water
    2. Post-ride meal from Just Delicious Catering in Hyde Park, VT, really good local meat and veggie food from the family that runs Applecheek Farm, not junk, right in line with the harvest theme.
    3. Delicious homemade harvest themed deserts (pies, crisps, cookies, and more)- made by my lady, her mom, and friends
    4. Adult beverages
    5. Custom wool SMBC sockguy socks
    6. Annual bike related contest, trivia, and games with chances to win Swag
    5. A damn good time riding your bike in a place we're lucky to live in and/or visit...

    This event is run nearly at cost (read: marked up by literally just a couple dollars over what it costs SMBC to run), designed to be fun for our awesome community of riders and visiting guests. Any profit that's made goes straight into the trails. There's no indication that what anyone is paying for is a guide...

    So riders of MTBR, it's gonna be yet another year of fun and hopefully stellar weather; if you can make it and swing it, the SMBC and riders who live in and love this area would be stoked to have you.

    LeafBlower info
    "like"

  42. #42
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    Jon if you finally strap down the tractor pull contest I will gladly pay 35 bucks to come not be beaten in that contest :P

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    Haha fair enough man, the first year we used huge spikes/nails and last year it didn't go too well from what I heard... I'll see if I can brainstorm a better way to hold them down, and find some HUGE pumpkins to pull
    EVIL Uprising

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtsingletrack View Post
    Haha fair enough man, the first year we used huge spikes/nails and last year it didn't go too well from what I heard... I'll see if I can brainstorm a better way to hold them down, and find some HUGE pumpkins to pull

    bigger the better..... I may just be there for the pumpkin pull, not sure I can get off work....

    (FYI my I am nnot paying 35 dollars was more in response to DaveVT contast baiting)

    SMBC put on a good event with the leaf blower.

  45. #45
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    Not being from VT, I love heading up for the best mounting biking in New England (IMO). Earlier this week I rode Stowe and hit the New Bears. Do you guys think (or hope) that is the new vision for trails in VT? While Bears was a lot of fun, it's not what I would travel to VT for. Not a hater and no disrespect, but I would much rather see the traditional - rocky, rooty, tight singletrack. I could care less about guide rocks, I would prefer rocks in the trail. Regardless, keep up the amazing work up there.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nail Every Trail View Post
    Just wanted to say I enjoyed the article on the development of the various trail networks in Vermont. It was a decent read.

    Seems like there is a lot of momentum building for mtn biking in VT.

    I own a house near Sunday River and wish there was as much buzz about mountain biking/trail building as Vt has. That being said, Sunday River itself is doing a decent job with the downhill side of things and there is a new parcel in Bethel that is in the planning stages of trail development.

    Congrats to riders in VT, nice effort.
    with nh and n-con within an hour of your house (I lived in bethel for 7 years) you have easily just as good riding with less folks/wear on the trails. you ride n-con area much?

    rog

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF2004 View Post
    Not being from VT, I love heading up for the best mounting biking in New England (IMO). Earlier this week I rode Stowe and hit the New Bears. Do you guys think (or hope) that is the new vision for trails in VT? While Bears was a lot of fun, it's not what I would travel to VT for. Not a hater and no disrespect, but I would much rather see the traditional - rocky, rooty, tight singletrack. I could care less about guide rocks, I would prefer rocks in the trail. Regardless, keep up the amazing work up there.
    I think even with stuff like the new bear's trail going in we will still have tons of older build stuff. IF2004 I am guessing where you ride normally does not have guide stones and their trail do not go to shit eh?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF2004 View Post
    Not being from VT, I love heading up for the best mounting biking in New England (IMO). Earlier this week I rode Stowe and hit the New Bears. Do you guys think (or hope) that is the new vision for trails in VT? While Bears was a lot of fun, it's not what I would travel to VT for. Not a hater and no disrespect, but I would much rather see the traditional - rocky, rooty, tight singletrack. I could care less about guide rocks, I would prefer rocks in the trail. Regardless, keep up the amazing work up there.
    At the rate that the club moves, it would take seventy years to rebuild all of the trail to Bear's standard even if the club wanted to. As of now it's like a mile or two out of 50-something miles. I don't think we'll be running out of roots anytime soon.

  49. #49
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    Vermont is awesome. That is all.
    2016 Santa Cruz Hightower 29er
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    2013 Transition TransAM 29er

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by epic View Post
    I don't think we'll be running out of roots anytime soon.
    Or rocks. Good times.
    While the new Bear's Trail is a ton of fun, I definitely don't want to see all our trails head that direction, and there's no way the ever will.
    Does anyone know if anything will ever be allowed/developed in the Cotton Brook area? The fireroad is great for some extended climbing and kamikaze descending, but it seems there is a HUGE potential if they ever allow anything out there...

  51. #51
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    It's definitely allowed. It's in the "plan" and has been for years. Who knows when/if it will ever happen.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by willapajames View Post
    Or rocks. Good times.
    While the new Bear's Trail is a ton of fun, I definitely don't want to see all our trails head that direction, and there's no way the ever will.
    Does anyone know if anything will ever be allowed/developed in the Cotton Brook area? The fireroad is great for some extended climbing and kamikaze descending, but it seems there is a HUGE potential if they ever allow anything out there...
    PK did develope a plan for that area as part of the Ride Center. STW has done a small amount of work in there as recently as last summer on the waterbury side but the state moves slow.

  53. #53
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    Anyone have pic of what a "guide stone" looks like? If they are angled flat rocks bordering the outside of a turn that would be good, babyheads, not so much. Over here in NH we leave the stones alone, so I guess ours are unguided stones.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmorealtitude View Post
    Anyone have pic of what a "guide stone" looks like? If they are angled flat rocks bordering the outside of a turn that would be good, babyheads, not so much. Over here in NH we leave the stones alone, so I guess ours are unguided stones.
    They are big fat chunky stones burried 2/3 in the ground, basicaly planted. The tread on these trails is about 24-30 inches wide. They are hand build benchcut singletracks. The purpose is to keep people on trail and attempt to maintain a tight trail despite heavy use and it has largely worked except where people have removed them. There are guidestones about every 50 feet or so along this trail. They are only a problem if you go off the trail. Where I grew up riding, the trails were lined with natural guiestones. In Vt there is nothing stopping people from widening the trail as small roots become exposed in the tread. Over years sections of trail become VERY wide. You might not even notice if you don't hike bike trails, but I think people would be suprised if they walked their favorite singletrack in their local park with a tape. I'm not saying this is the only solution, or even the best one for a trail people bring beginners on. Part of the poblem with Kimmers is the SMBC was calling it a DH trail while it was under contruction and so people were expecting some ripping fast DH. In reality, the top 2/3 of the terrain is steep with alot of wetness requiring many switchbacks. All attempts were made to keep people's speed down and to armour and harden the tread, then keep people on it. If you try and go fast down it, you will find the top 1/2-2/3 pretty challenging. If you just chill out and stop tryin to race it, it is a beautiful flowing trail with long sections of coasting and pumping. If you want to rip a high speed run....climb Kimmers ad go down Hardy Haul. If you enter theswitchbacks on Kimmers too fast, you will be jammed up at the end of the turn and the guidestone that marks the exit will cause you to stop or slow down dramatically to not crash. If you Brake properly and corner properly and exit theturn on trail, the straght aways that follow flow wondefully. You can't ride it like a teenager gettin laid for the first time. You have to slow it down. Take what it gives you and enjoy the technicality of the corners. If you do it right it's like a casual sunday afternoon couch sesh when the kids are at soccer practice and the phone is of the hook. No rush. What's the hurry anyway?

  55. #55
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    So what's in the works at Cotton Brook? I run and flyfish out there all the time, but besides a few snowmobile sidetrails and footpath offshoots, I never seem to see much. Is there an acceptable way to make a loop of the Reservoir? I know some people ride that trail that connects the fire road to Little River SP (Ricker Farm Trail?), but it's posted no bikes. There is a side-trail before that that's marked for dog-sleds and sno-mo's, but I've never ridden all of it to see where it wound up, since I don't want to be riding where it's not allowed.
    As for guidestones, I think people should accept them as part of the challenge of the trail. I really don't think there's much more that needs to be said about it.
    Totally agree with your assessment of Kimmer's/Hardy Haul. If you rush the upper part of Kimmers, you'll blow the corners, and judging by the rutting and skid marks, that happens a lot. If I'm riding my 'cross bike, I generally go down Hardy's... it's a much smoother descent than Kimmers. They're both pretty fun to go up.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmorealtitude View Post
    Anyone have pic of what a "guide stone" looks like? If they are angled flat rocks bordering the outside of a turn that would be good, babyheads, not so much. Over here in NH we leave the stones alone, so I guess ours are unguided stones.

    its because no place else really outside of SMBC trail do people do this, or do this like they do.

    by making the turns on Kimmer's be opened the trail has become a solid rut from brake drag right down the middle exposing more rocks and roots. If the trail was opened up it would not have eroded nearly as quickly.

    If you go ride FOTW where brooke and that trail crew have used guide stone sparingly it never is obnoxious like kimmer's, pipeline, Tapline, or luce hill loop.

    the problem with decending hardy's haul is the turns are made for going up, and not down, they again close off radius, loose their berm at the bottom and honestly compared to other places I have ridden including Northfield(which is argueable the flowiest trail around) its just not designed as well.

    So daveVT you just rode the new bear's trail. I think there might be guide stones on it(not really sure because none were 'in the way") but the thing is nobody ever riding that trail is ever going to want to cut corner or blow out a turn on that trail because the trail is the place to be and it flows, there are no closed off corners, no steeping switchback, no turn that finish uphill. because of all those thing despite being ridden more in the past couple week that all the other trail combined it will have LESS trail wear. More flow = less trail wear. Guide stones do not add flow they end up wearing down the trail more as people now have to take contrived lines to make corners.

    when you attempt to keep people's speed down you are causing more erosion. We have trails in pittsburgh that have been ridden for 20+ year in every condition, by tons of people of all skills, with NO ****ING GUIDE STONES that are still just as single track as they were in 1990. The thing is in pittsburgh the guys who start including Dirt rag staff never had an ego about building trails and also never wanted to 'slow" people down.

  57. #57
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    The last plan I saw for CottonBrook was for some new trail on the little river side then basically a high traverse up the south side of the Cotton Brook and dropping down once north of it to reconnect with the road near the Moscow end. Would be an awesome connection of singletrack. As far as the loop goes on the east side of the res., alot of it is there on either vast or private land/dirt road.




    Quote Originally Posted by willapajames View Post
    So what's in the works at Cotton Brook? I run and flyfish out there all the time, but besides a few snowmobile sidetrails and footpath offshoots, I never seem to see much. Is there an acceptable way to make a loop of the Reservoir? I know some people ride that trail that connects the fire road to Little River SP (Ricker Farm Trail?), but it's posted no bikes. There is a side-trail before that that's marked for dog-sleds and sno-mo's, but I've never ridden all of it to see where it wound up, since I don't want to be riding where it's not allowed.
    As for guidestones, I think people should accept them as part of the challenge of the trail. I really don't think there's much more that needs to be said about it.
    Totally agree with your assessment of Kimmer's/Hardy Haul. If you rush the upper part of Kimmers, you'll blow the corners, and judging by the rutting and skid marks, that happens a lot. If I'm riding my 'cross bike, I generally go down Hardy's... it's a much smoother descent than Kimmers. They're both pretty fun to go up.

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    Machine built trail. Apples vs. Oranges. I'm not saying some of what you say isn't valid in some circumstances. But there are no absolute rules. Hardy came up with a unique solution to keeping high traffic hand build trail tight. He's been designing trail since you were like 12 years old. There is a learnig curve and every trailbuildr I know is very open about their own personal growth. What you see now outof Brooke and Hardy is the latest version of their personal "trailfolios". You are lucky to be around and able to ride it. You are a fool to be so openly and outspokenly critical of their past or present work being A)One of the most frequent users of heir trails, and B)someone who has contributed nothing meaningful in the way of volenteer time in any local club effort other then farting around out on some geurilla trail for a handful of sessons at best. You keep talking about back in Pittsburg....sounds like they have it figured out. You sould just head on back there as far as I'm concerned. I'm from Jersey, ther is sme great riding there, but I like it here and I like everything that is happening with trail development and am stoked for guys that have been trailworkers for free their whole lives getting paid!

    I like to climb Kimmers because you are going slow and can appreciate all the hand work. Only recently did I go down Hardy Haul. I loved it, it was wicked flowy and fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    its because no place else really outside of SMBC trail do people do this, or do this like they do.

    by making the turns on Kimmer's be opened the trail has become a solid rut from brake drag right down the middle exposing more rocks and roots. If the trail was opened up it would not have eroded nearly as quickly.

    If you go ride FOTW where brooke and that trail crew have used guide stone sparingly it never is obnoxious like kimmer's, pipeline, Tapline, or luce hill loop.

    the problem with decending hardy's haul is the turns are made for going up, and not down, they again close off radius, loose their berm at the bottom and honestly compared to other places I have ridden including Northfield(which is argueable the flowiest trail around) its just not designed as well.

    So daveVT you just rode the new bear's trail. I think there might be guide stones on it(not really sure because none were 'in the way") but the thing is nobody ever riding that trail is ever going to want to cut corner or blow out a turn on that trail because the trail is the place to be and it flows, there are no closed off corners, no steeping switchback, no turn that finish uphill. because of all those thing despite being ridden more in the past couple week that all the other trail combined it will have LESS trail wear. More flow = less trail wear. Guide stones do not add flow they end up wearing down the trail more as people now have to take contrived lines to make corners.

    when you attempt to keep people's speed down you are causing more erosion. We have trails in pittsburgh that have been ridden for 20+ year in every condition, by tons of people of all skills, with NO ****ING GUIDE STONES that are still just as single track as they were in 1990. The thing is in pittsburgh the guys who start including Dirt rag staff never had an ego about building trails and also never wanted to 'slow" people down.

  59. #59
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    I would move back to the burgh if we got anywhere near 300 inches of snow and had vertical over 1000 feet for skiing. The riding IMO is better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    No rush. What's the hurry anyway?
    Yes, getting there is ALL the fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by needmorealtitude View Post
    Anyone have pic of what a "guide stone" looks like? If they are angled flat rocks bordering the outside of a turn that would be good, babyheads, not so much. Over here in NH we leave the stones alone, so I guess ours are unguided stones.
    Here are a couple pics from a trail at Pine Hill in VT. Until I rode there I had never really seen them before.



    <img src="http://www.mtnadvisor.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Pine-Hill-4.jpg">

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    I like the fast, smooth trails like this. The rocks have to go somewhere so the edge of the trail is okay by me. It did strike me as odd when I first saw them because they could turn a minor crash into a bad injury. Still, you can't lose the trail when they are marked this way and they may decrease erosion.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dung Hopper View Post
    I like the fast, smooth trails like this. The rocks have to go somewhere so the edge of the trail is okay by me. It did strike me as odd when I first saw them because they could turn a minor crash into a bad injury. Still, you can't lose the trail when they are marked this way and they may decrease erosion.
    Pine Hill and stowe are nothing alike. NEver at pine hill do your pedals feel like your going to hit a guide stone. At pine hill there is never a closed off turn or grade that there was not tons of taken to cut inot and extend out of the hill.

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    Yeah, there are plenty of chances for pedal strikes. Beyond that, I don't understand your question. I'm not comparing Pine Hill to Stowe - someone asked what they were so I gave photo examples.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
    ....or grade that there was not tons of taken to cut inot and extend out of the hill.
    Dude, take a minute to proofread what you type. Your message is lost if no one can understand what you are writing. I understand why you don't like guide stones but have no idea what the text above means.

  66. #66
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    so... there was this article in Dirt Rag?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtsingletrack View Post
    Here's some info on what your $35 (SMBC member) $40 (non-member) gets you this year. What I'm listing below is in addition to riding with friends on really nice trails that might not be easily connected by non-locals. This is a festival style group ride, the goal is fun, not waving your d*ck.

    1. Mid-ride aid stations with: apples, honey stinger products, and water
    2. Post-ride meal from Just Delicious Catering in Hyde Park, VT, really good local meat and veggie food from the family that runs Applecheek Farm, not junk, right in line with the harvest theme.
    3. Delicious homemade harvest themed deserts (pies, crisps, cookies, and more)- made by my lady, her mom, and friends
    4. Adult beverages
    5. Custom wool SMBC sockguy socks
    6. Annual bike related contest, trivia, and games with chances to win Swag
    5. A damn good time riding your bike in a place we're lucky to live in and/or visit...

    This event is run nearly at cost (read: marked up by literally just a couple dollars over what it costs SMBC to run), designed to be fun for our awesome community of riders and visiting guests. Any profit that's made goes straight into the trails. There's no indication that what anyone is paying for is a guide...

    So riders of MTBR, it's gonna be yet another year of fun and hopefully stellar weather; if you can make it and swing it, the SMBC and riders who live in and love this area would be stoked to have you.

    LeafBlower info
    Should be a great event. I can't wait. And..

    8. VMBA is giving away a $7,000.00 new SC 5010. Someone could win it for just ten bucks. VMBA - Home

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by epic View Post
    so... there was this article in Dirt Rag?
    Wait...he's not done shit-staining the thread yet.

  69. #69
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    I'm just going to leave this here so everyone can get overly psyched for the weekend, the Leaf Blower, and hear from one of the guys we all owe a lot of beers to.

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    Wow, that got me so amped to ride. Snow aint on the ground yet! Its been hard to stay focused on dirt when all i am thinking about is snow....This helps! Thanks Matt.

    I am a FOTW rider and absolutely love my "home" trails. I have only ever ridden at Perry Hill. I have to say though, i cant wait to ride some of these SMBC trails and enjoy them the way the builder inteded them to be ridden, guidestones or not. So many great trails and trail builders here in VT. Lucky to ride here.

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