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This doesn't sound good (Kingdom Trails)

13K views 66 replies 27 participants last post by  River19 
#1 ·
#7 ·
Hey folks--I have been in the ski business for 40+ years, in NH and Colorado-as a grunt, i.e liftie, patrolman, rental manager ,etc.. Cross country areas for 20 years...In this corporate world, for the most part, it is all about the "Alpine" experience; they could care less about anything else. They sell more burgers, chips, and beer in a weekend then a Nordic or Bike operation takes in over a whole season. Burke Mt. as a viable ski area will never make it- too far for day trips, not enough snow making potential (i.e. water) , nothing else to do once there, and on and on. Even worse is for a non-profit to depend on the benevolence of a corporate entity, or private landowners, to supply the land for them to build there trails. Waiting to see whoever actually owns the resort land at Ascutney to decide then can do better being an ATV destination resort or sell of the land for more second homes. Be very happy that non-profits such as land trusts, conservation areas, town forests, etc., actually seem to want hiking and biking trails on their land.
 
#8 ·
To the SLAV--It is all about $$ and entitlement, this is the good old USA! And I know you are in central NH where Highlands was a tiny little failing ski area where someone with vision stepped in and built a downhill/lift served mecca (and they have free xc MTB trails) for mountain biking. And within 15 miles are nearly 60 miles of free, purpose built MTB trails--all on conservation land, town forests, a federal Dam, a Farm trust, a Youth Center, a State Park. I love to go to Kingdom and Ascutney, but thankfully we have are own little Kingdom without Corporate largess.
 
#10 ·
Like many of you, I too, have many years of "ski world" experience. AS many of you ahve mentioned, it's truly about the all mighty dollar. This has happened all across the country in many fields... I guess the only thing that I feel that I have control ovr is "who" my money supports, and that will ALWAYS be the Kingdom Trails. Hopefully over time, things will get worked out... but if not, I still will support the trails !!
 
#13 ·
The trail is there, it's super fun.

So anyway, I was there I the midst of all this, and Ary is a supreme ass who shoots from the hip. It cost 35 dollars to ride the bike park, 20 for Burke. 15 for KT. Ary decided not to honor the existing contract, and stiffed KT for upwards of $20,000. He would ride the lift with one of the rental bikes, no experience, and come down in jeans with NO helmet. People would come in saying some jackass was riding without a helmet on. Yup, that's the Prez.

I thought that I had stepped into an opportunity to grow the biking at the mountain, but it was obvious from the start that Ary had no intention in investing what was needed, and proceeded to make decisions to bury the place. When the stuff with KT came around I had to bail, you can't treat people like he does. He will fail, ultimately...no doubt in my mind. But as long as he has something to snort, he's happy.


"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"
 
#14 ·
The trail is there, it's super fun.

So anyway, I was there I the midst of all this, and Ary is a supreme ass who shoots from the hip. It cost 35 dollars to ride the bike park, 20 for Burke. 15 for KT. Ary decided not to honor the existing contract, and stiffed KT for upwards of $20,000. He would ride the lift with one of the rental bikes, no experience, and come down in jeans with NO helmet. People would come in saying some jackass was riding without a helmet on. Yup, that's the Prez.

I thought that I had stepped into an opportunity to grow the biking at the mountain, but it was obvious from the start that Ary had no intention in investing what was needed, and proceeded to make decisions to bury the place. When the stuff with KT came around I had to bail, you can't treat people like he does. He will fail, ultimately...no doubt in my mind. But as long as he has something to snort, he's happy.

"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"
This seems to be the sentiment of everyone who has dealt with Ary. I think the KTA is bigger than the mountain at this point.

I hope Knight still has that shuttle bus running, we'll be needing that moving forward.

The real concern here is that they'll run Burke into the ground and then strip everything they can move out to Jay, leaving our hill with nothing.
 
#61 ·
I would suggest to anyone who complains about the fee charged at KTA to follow the money that flows from your paycheck. Most of your hard earned money goes to entities that are not actually "market competitive", your health insurance, your utilities, your mortgage, your taxes. My point is simple don't gripe about entities that are actually market competitive, you can easily go to a different bike park. How easy is it to change your other, much bigger ticket items? JMHO
 
#3 ·
Some other notable consequences of Ary Quiros management style.

- Many long term employees of the mountain were fired without cause(source: existing employee).
- The school ski program for the local kids was basically ruined(source: local family we know).
- Now this after ignoring the fact that KT basically built and maintains the mountain trail system for him.
- Two prominent restaurants in town closed this year. Not sure if he was involved or not but it is not good.

From what I understand, this guy has no ski area management or recreation type experience. The locals are getting fed up and the mountain will certainly not succeed in their future plans without the town's support.
 
#9 ·
To Likeaboss-- once again it is all about $$ and entitlement- I have lived in and worked at Waterville Valley, in NH, for 10 years. New Owners; get rid of experienced veterans, replace them with outsiders who are clueless but young and go getters..We had lift served, not very good, Mtb trails--this Summer the mechanics, inexperienced, killed the chairlift-not likely to be replaced for the pittance it brought in compared to the Alpine Area, which has been run into the ground by previous corporate owners. Little Towns: Waterville Valley, Ascutney, East Burke are a non-entity from the Corporate view--this is not Stowe, Aspen, Telluride, North Conway. And I don't think any of us can do much to change it all. Keep in mind that MTB'ers do not drop close to 4 or 5 hundred a day to ski at an Alpine area--Mom,Dad, 2 kids, tickets, rentals?, lunch ($10 burger, $8 beer),etc. Cherish your own special places to bike!!!
 
#16 ·
I think that the mountain will operate the bike park, but it won't be built, maintained, or run by kingdom Trails as it has in the past. That was my last impression. Knight didn't run a summit shuttle this year, nobody did. It didn't prove to be very profitable.


"You're like a Ferrari engine driving a dump truck"
 
#18 ·
If you need to dh while up in east Burke, head over the border to bromont. It's worlds better than Burke mtn and only about an hour and a half away. Burke is only good for when your legs are tired and you want something different from kt. They won't survive with the same trails and the same price, with no kt access.
 
#25 ·
This is true. I can't tell you the number of people I've had to slow down and wait for on Jester or have seen rolling over the lips on Knightslayer. The only problem is that isn't a sustainable business model. All of those people are going to go once, and either not go again, or go the one time a year the family goes up there. Everyone else, ie the money, are going to go to places that cater to MTBers, not just as a side business. Besides, Highland now has lessons and fantastic rental packages, in addition to the newer trails which are all beginner focused.

There are so many near-dead MTB parks it's not even funny (Snow, Attitash, Jiminy, whiteface, Killington). There are a few that are thriving (Mt Creek, Highland, Bromont). The ones that are doing well are the ones with laser focus on actually building a good park for MTBers, and not treating it as a joke.

Don't get me wrong I love burke, I think the two trails there are fantastic, but I would never pay $35 to ride there and there alone. When it's $20 for the uplift and $15 to ride KT, it makes more sense.
 
#23 ·
Gravy Fries!

Anyways, I've seen bungholes like this guy buy restaruants and clean out long term employees, kind of like the burke situation. Many people would say that the new owner will never make it, but as long as they have their accounts managed and the books are in the black, they don't care how many locals/regulars they loose. With so much invested in this project, I'd be suprised to see it fail. The town pays, the mtb community pays, but the business will profit. It's just sad, especially since this town seemed so stoked on mtb and community.
 
#24 ·
Burke Mt.--Viable or Not: In New England there would be no viable ski areas without snowmaking, and lots of it! Just a look at Vt. area trail totals this morning tells the story: open/total> Jay 57/78, Killington 87/155, Mad River 4/45 **, Magic 3/43**, Okemo 91/120, Stowe 70/116, Burke 14/50**. Pretty obvious who has The Snowmaking and who does not. And this is at the end of the Christmas Vacation, which usually accounts for at least 25% of the total Season income! Guess how well Magic, Mad, and Burke did this Vacation. OK, so you say the "Q" has a lot of money; that may be wonderful and hopeful but all the snowmaking equipment you can buy is useless without Water, and lots of it! And I see no large source of water for Burke; States generally do not allow water to be drawn from streams or rivers. The option then is drilling a lot of wells, building Large holding ponds, and spending millions to upgrade the snowmaking equipment. And then you have to have Resort infrastructure--restaurants, bars, shops, lodging,etc. Burke is not a day area, too far from any real population to make that viable. So they have to build a destination Resort with tons of snowmaking--do not really think they would take that chance when they already have Jay to work with. KT was there and successful before the downhill park! They should spend the time, money, and effort concentrating on what has worked so far-- surely they could do a lot to help those many trails that have been beaten to death by high traffic volume and un-sustainable building practices. Let Burke have the Bike Park and KT get back to making what they have more lasting and fun for the future!
 
#26 ·
Side note... someone posted in another thread that KTA sold 60,000 day passes last year @ $15 a pop.... That's $900K revenue by my math (plus all the goodies they sell at the office, etc.).

While that certainly is an impressive # of biker visits... how much of that goes back into the trail system?

I understand they have their costs, etc., but they also benefit from lots of volunteer hours.

Not trying to be a dick... it just popped into my head when I did the revenue math... I thought "does it look/feel like they reinvest at that level?"

thoughts?
 
#35 ·
Side note... someone posted in another thread that KTA sold 60,000 day passes last year

thoughts?
Let's assume 240 days of operation - April through November. 60,000/240=250. I know it gets packed up there weekends and such but an average of at least 250 day pass sold every day seems quite high. I didn't see the other thread where they posted the 60,000 number but my thoughts are that 60,000 is not a valid number and thus your revenue projection are well out of whack.
 
#27 ·
Shifty Bits-- That is a good question. I suppose that liability insurance takes a sizeable chunk- could it be $100,000 or $200,000 a year? I have no idea. $100,000 for Executive Director and Staff? I have heard $20,000 to $30,000 to build a machine made downhill trail; and $10,000 for new bridges, etc.? Maps and advertising and ? And let's not forget rental of those "crappy" porta potties! Wonder also who pays for Nembafest and who, if anyone, profits from it......I would think at the end there would be a couple hundred thousand around for trail maintenance. What does a non-profit do with extra profits? Anyone have any answers/ideas?
 
#31 ·
Shifty Bits-- That is a good question. I suppose that liability insurance takes a sizeable chunk- could it be $100,000 or $200,000 a year? I have no idea.
I thought you didn't need insurance for recreational area in VT.

From the SMBC web page:

YOU'RE PROTECTED BY THE STATE OF VERMONT
Vermont has developed laws with the intent of protecting the generosity of landowners who make their land available for recreation. To paraphrase the law; "A landowner is not liable should someone get hurt while recreating on their property, whether the landowner is aware of the activity or not. "
Vermont State Law VSA Title 12, Section 5793.(a) states, "An owner shall not be liable for property damage or personal injury sustained by a person who, without consideration, enters or goes upon the owner's land for a recreational use unless the damage or injury is the result of the willful or wanton misconduct of the owner." In addition, a landowner has not duty to inspect the land to be sure that it is a safe for a specific recreational use or to discover any dangerous conditions.
 
#30 ·
A 501(c)(3) non-profit is not required to have a zero net gain on their balance sheet each fiscal year. Being a non-profit is more a function of organizational governmental structure than economics. It is also about what the money they make is USED FOR.
 
#29 ·
I would hope the maps are a break even for them given they sell advertising space on it.

Sure the staff needs a salary, benefits, etc. That's a no brainer. I'm sure nobody is getting rich on this. Just wondering how the costs break down... Insurance is probably their single largest expense. I wonder if they have to indemnify the private landowners? That could be a big part of it.

I guess my "wish list" of stuff I'd like to see them invest in (beyond new trails, that's a no-brainer) is (in no particular order) - better trail signage (such that you wouldn't even really need to refer to your trail map all that often... a trail system near me (Musquash) is "best in class" for this... A less ghetto area to change/poop.... porta potties are good for events, but they should think about a pavillion or something like that with multiple changing areas and better shitters (pit toilets or something like that)... I love the pay for use showers somebody put up in the back lot area... something like that, but with some stalls to change in, etc. And for that kind of coin they take in, I would expect trail maintenance to be a bit better, especially in late fall (leaf blowing, blowdown removal, trimming back branches, etc.).

But what the F do I know... maybe Insurance is $600,000 or more of the cost side and that leaves very little money for things they'd really like to spend more on.
 
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