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  1. #1
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    Can ATVs Share the Trails?

    In West Windsor, Vermont, a group is proposing that the town allow ATV's on some of the double-track trails in the Ascutney Trails network. We are talking about 3 miles of the 30 miles in the network, gaining access to a few choice view spots at dead ends.

    Do any of you have experience with ATVs responsibly sharing the trails? How would this impact your decision to bike at Ascutney Trails?

  2. #2
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    Any time I've ridden ATV trails (pretty much every powerline easement in Maine), they are deeply rutted mud bogs. Probably tons of fun on an ATV, but no fun at all by bike. The only exceptions are where it is sandy and well-drained. In those places, it's still rutted, but rideable. I've never ridden at Ascutney, so I don't know the areas you're talking about, but, there's an old saying... "give them an inch, and they'll take a yard".

  3. #3
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    The greater Northfield trail network is shared by ATVs for the last 30 years or so. The ATVers are responsible for keeping the doubletracks open thru the years. The trails they ride do need work, but mostly due to water not ATV traffic. I have seen bike trails degrade faster the the local atv trails due to overuse and inappropriate use. There are no black and white answers. It depends on alot of variables like soil type as well as users self regulation. I think as a user group constantly seeking out access o public and private land for responsible use, we should ecourage access for as may user-groups as possible. VASA and CCC of VT come with resources and can exists farily sustainably IMO.

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    I think the kingdom trails should have ATV/MTB shared trails. our neighbors to the north would love that. ATV's make singletrack into true doubletrack and our neighbors could ride along sceaming, "TABERNAC! TWO RIDER SIDE BY EACH!!!!"

    rog

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbikeski View Post
    In West Windsor, Vermont, a group is proposing that the town allow ATV's on some of the double-track trails in the Ascutney Trails network. We are talking about 3 miles of the 30 miles in the network, gaining access to a few choice view spots at dead ends.

    Do any of you have experience with ATVs responsibly sharing the trails? How would this impact your decision to bike at Ascutney Trails?
    ATVs and UTVs are not just useful for hauling geezers, but are also useful for hauling heavier and bulkier items for trail grooming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRT_in_WMass View Post
    ATVs and UTVs are not just useful for hauling geezers, but are also useful for hauling heavier and bulkier items for trail grooming.
    They are already permitted for maintenance/construction and emergency evacuation. The request is for recreational use.

  7. #7
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    The noise of ATVs alone is worth disallowing them from the paradise that is STAB. Keep them out, or landowners are liable to assimilate noise and pollution with "trails" and no user group in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRT_in_WMass View Post
    ATVs and UTVs are not just useful for hauling geezers, but are also useful for hauling heavier and bulkier items for trail grooming.
    One of our local builders (Sustainable Trailworks, Hardy I believe) uses one of these for that: Rokon 2-Wheel Drive Motorcycles

  9. #9
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    Jim , To answer your questions directly--here is a similar winter situation--Bretton Woods , Mt. Washington Cross country skiing in NH has over 100 K of groomed trails--great stuff, but there is a Major snowmobile corridor 200 ft. away from the the major access trail and often the stench of gas and noise is enough to go to Waterville valley instead. The bigger question is where do the atv's originate from...local mom and pop taking grandma up to the viewpoint from the farm on Coaching lane OR...They come from the snowmobile/atv/dirtbike lobby and movement-- they have clout, parking lots, thousands of miles of trails already---soon 100 atv's and dirt bikes are blasting up to choice viewpoints,,,the dirt bikers would love to slip onto Mile Long Field and let it rip. I for one will stop recommending Ascutney and stay away.

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    I forgot to mention that use of atv's to build and maintain trails, and public use on the other hand, is like comparing apples and oranges.It is numbers. You should see the trailered atv carivans heading for dedicated (meaning they are allowed) hot spots in Northern and western NH-just blast up I-93 ( or I-91)..let it rip, that is what they do, it is not about Mom & Pop taking a leisurely ride through the woods!!

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    Would not the dirt bikers like to shred kitchell's and atv'ers doing 40 mph on the Vast/Darling hill trails..hill climbing at Highlands.....Just drove four hours on the interstate from PA to get to that sweet single track in Vt.--that pack of 12 atv'ers did not bother me at all....

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    Have any of you who have responded ever participated in motorsports? Judging by some of the answers like the noise complaint in specific, I'd say no. Providing access to open lands for all uers who participate in a sustainable fasion can only help our cause. It's not like you would have to open all trails to all users. In fact, motorized users are ussually looking for access to pass throuh areas of greenspace. Their rides are ussually 70-80 miles and up to hundreds of miles in a day. In general they are not looking to hampster wheel round in a few hundred acers of space. Providing ways through on major class 4 and ancient roads that are somewhat built for heavier use is generally what hey are looking for. In many cases they will actually improve roues they use. Their historical use of land dates back as far, if not predates MTB use in alot of areas. Think inclusively, not excluively. Your arguments sound like the kind of retoric MTBers faced and still face by pedestrian users over the years. How quickly we become what we despise.

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    all you bozos should just get on fatbikes. then it doesn't matter trail or no trail. go ANYWHERE

    rog

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    When I was in Maine ('til '98) the local trails were kept open by ATV's and maybe some dirtbikers - it was highly unusual to see another vehicle, let alone another bike. Deer-drivers, blueberry pickers, and fishermen were more commonly sighted. If ATVs (or snowmachines) were not out, things got overgrown and you were like, those lazy 4wheelers, snowmobilers, etc., where are they? So they really established (or kept clear) the trails where I lived, and I appreciated it. It was pretty sandy there (Crooked River, Harrison & environs) but the other "trails" in the area at the time were skidder trails from logging, which made the ATV tracks look like a dimple. I also recall passing an abandoned 4x4 truck (with winch) in the woods while on a "Bean-boot ride". Aaah, the good old days. But to your question, to this day, i do not object to sharing trails with courteous ATV'rs, hunters, snowmachines, MTBs, etc. There are some rabid anti-ATV'rs in VT, but I can't get behind it.

  15. #15
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    I do both, stumpjumper and a Honda fourtrax 250R and thats how I like it. Mtb elitists are just as bad as idiots on quads. There is room for everyone who is respectful.

  16. #16
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    I know of someone who rides moto on local singletrack, he has been around longer than just about anyone here. hell of rider on pedal power, or moto and you can not tell he has been there unless there is a mud spot with his track in it.

    Out in utah though in american fork canyon a place where motos,horses, hiker, and bikes all used the same singletrack trail a moto roosted away 1/4 of trail it was harsh to the other user groups for sure.

    it a tough call. it would take 100s of gapers on a bike to do the damage of one ******* gaper who just wanted to destroy **** on a moto. but it their land too.....

  17. #17
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    If the trails are adequately signed and your singletrack has tight entrances you would probably be ok. My only concern would be keeping the inevitable bad apples from poaching and blowing out the singletrack.

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    As I understand it Stab and the Ascutney area have turned to MTB's to attract some of the business lost from the closure of the ski area--they are not building these trails for the local bike population. They want to get MTb's there and they have a pretty good shot of rivaling KT for a premier destination in New England. Just off the Intersate, Lodging on site, beautiful scenery, great trails--they do not need to let every potential user in on the action. Surely there are miles of snowmo corridor and 6 th. class town roads in the area for MTV and Dirt bike use. Add up the miles of roads/trails that atv's have already and then add up the miles of MTB trails, for any given town or state. THE problem is always the bad apples, and the more apples you have the more of them will be bad-- great to have the idea that respectful users can all get along but just watch your hard earned singletrack get torn up by just one bad apple and you get pretty deflated. Why is it that KT, Millstone, PHP and any number of dedicated MTB venues do not allow motorized users---must be some reason besides elitism.

  19. #19
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    Maybe yes, maybe no.
    AtV users are a varied bunch. Most are Ok. Small bunch are not. Every multi-use trail that includes AtV suffers damage. In the little world where we ride, they have damaged some trails to the point where we avoid riding there.

    Now, if we could only convince the horse riders to pick up processed hay....

  20. #20
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    Holy Crap, Atv's---could Guide Stones be next!! Or maybe guide stones piled high enough will deter the atv's from the buffed single track.

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    jimbikeski-- Looking at your great trail map 2 things stand out: 1. Non-motorized Recreational Trails just under the Ascutney Trails logo, also the stab mission statement says "used for multiple non-motorized sports"---don't throw this concept out the window just because a few atv'ers want to get on these trails. 2. looking at the map again I see Lots of double track, both on West Windsor TF and resort/private lands---ok, start by giving them 3 miles on TF; doe anyone really believe they are not eyeing up double track on the resort property? And what if the resort decides they can make more money off Atv'ers then they can off MTB'ers? What is the resorts stance on this?

  22. #22
    SP Singletrack rocks
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    Quote Originally Posted by damnation View Post
    Holy Crap, Atv's---could Guide Stones be next!! Or maybe guide stones piled high enough will deter the atv's from the buffed single track.

    wont deter a moto, ATV yes.

  23. #23
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    How about atvers get together, form a community of like-minded individuals, the spend years and thousands of hours building their own trails? Trails designed for vehicles with engines. They could even be alternate routes to the same look outs. Oh wait, why do that when you can thrash existing mountain bike trails?

    Even the increase in bicycle usage on trails these days is causing degradation and erosion. Would those trails would be better off with high powered vehicles?

    I'm OK with multi-use areas, but don't think its a good idea to share the same tracks.

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    talk about 1st world problems

    cut about a mile of new singletrack today. atv's will never find it

    rog

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    I would never propose to open MTB trails to motorizd use. I would propose opening the diggles and ancient roads thru certain riding areas to motorized use. Again not all. Every case is different but we should not have a knee-jerk responce without exploring the possibilities of each specific open space. I had a 4 stroke WR 250 for a while. My bike was not the quitest but I could burp that thing along in very non-invasive way. Any MTBer who has not been on a 100 mile trail ride on a moto would absolutely have a freaking blast. These folks are not our advisaries, they are our closest cousins in the world of land use. Wheels are rad. I think we are on the same team in most land use situations.

  26. #26
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    My experience has been that ATV'ers poach many of the areas I ride. And they are always cutting their own bypasses to get access to something else. Not trying to paint all ATV'ers with the same brush, but I can't see how giving legal access to a limited amount of trails won't promote the same type of activity from a small group of bad apples.
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  27. #27
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    The very few places I have MTB'd that had ATV/Moto use were places I had no desire to ever return. The ruts by the motorcycles were deep and nasty and it was clear that going up hill they just gunned it and sprayed soil everywhere. I just do not see any compatibility there at all. My experience was years ago but I never did return to those places to ride. They were down in Mass somewhere.
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  28. #28
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    Something not mentioned yet-- they , the Atv'ers are asking for 3 miles in the West Windsor Town Forest of doubletrack--if you look at the stab map it looks like that is ALL the doubletrack that there is--meaning that every doubletrack you ride to get to choice singletrack will be ATV accessible--it is pretty close--and maybe the actual mileage of ATV versus MTB will be surprising....Maybe like an Alpine Ski Area where the skiers are disrupted by snowmobiles crossing the trails...hey ,it's Multiple Use..

  29. #29
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    I rode down at STAB for the first time this summer at the VMBA festival and was blown away at how good the trails were there. I seriously think that STAB has to potential to build something up that could rival or even eclipse Kingdom Trails with some more minor additions and some focused planning. I plan on returning to ride down there even though KT is in my backyard. I don't see how allowing ATVs through the system would be a positive addition in any way. Depending on the final resolution of this issue, it could deter me from making that trip and I'm sure others would have the same reaction. If there's any thought of developing the trail system into a destination for riders, understand that this will be working in direct opposition to those efforts. (I'm also not fond of bicycles on hiking trails, so this isn't just my bike-centric attitude at play.) The places that I've ridden where ATVs were allowed were pretty severely ripped up - especially the inclines.

    Anyway, that's just my personal opinion.

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    how do the stab trails not quite rival kt? I mean kt is cute n all, but c'mon, really?

    rog

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by newmarketrog View Post
    how do the stab trails not quite rival kt? I mean kt is cute n all, but c'mon, really?

    rog
    Okay, I'll bite. First off, I think the terrain is awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed riding down there. STAB definitely has more technical terrain and a lot of cool trails that have no equal up here. What I feel STAB lacks, from the perspective of being a regional MTB destination are just a few things: a central focal point like the East Burke village, raw trail mileage (30 mi. vs 100+), more "moderate" terrain for the less experienced and less fit rider, lift serviced DH riding, and marketing.

    Maybe that's not was the village of Brownsville, STAB and everyone else down there wants, so I'm not offering a prescription of what I think they ought to do. After riding down there, my initial reaction was that the potential was clearly there. With the ski area out of action, I can't imagine that building up some kind of strong tourism base would be viewed as a bad thing. If nothing were to ever change, it would still be great riding.

    edit: Bringing this back to the original topic, does anyone know how the meeting went on Wednesday evening??
    Last edited by Ant-Eater; 10-18-2013 at 07:07 PM. Reason: not enough garlic

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ant-Eater View Post
    Okay, I'll bite.
    edit: Bringing this back to the original topic, does anyone know how the meeting went on Wednesday evening??
    The meeting was informational, to get input from the community to the Town Forest Committee. Attendees were almost 90% ATVers. (Nobody likes to come to a meeting to say NO to their neighbors.) The committee needs input from the MTB community - how it will affect your decision to come to Ascutney Trails? I know it's a pain in the butt, but if some of you would go to West Windsor, Vermont* and download the survey (very, very short) we'd love to get your comments. Mail (ugh!) or scan and email to info@stabvt.org.

    This is a long process that is just beginning. It looks like worst-case is we lose 2 1/2 miles of doubletrack to ATVs, which we replace with new singletrack (I love being forced to build new trails). Separate trails, no sharing with the few ATVs that will come for just 2.5 miles. If they poach our trails consistently, they will most likely be banned. Thanks for your input.

  33. #33
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    ATV Survey

    Just sent an e-mail containing my thoughts.

    I think the presence of ATVs would severely degrade the wonderful riding experience at STAB. It would be a real shame to jeopardize the results of all that hard work just to open 2.5 miles of ATV trails.

    dbk123
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  34. #34
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    Jim, I just sent an email to info@stabvt.org supporting MTB's and against the non-motorized use. I think you better rally the whole Vermont MTB Association and members and friends. I don't believe the AtVers will stay on the 2.5 miles on Town Forest when there is another 3? miles of double track on Resort and private land, not to mention those nice fields to do donuts in and blast across. Signage won't work, so now do you have to have gates, which of course they will find a way around. And let's not forget that not all of those ATVers will be responsible adults, some will be 12-18 year old kids jumping on the machine and heading up from wherever they live nearby to blast around the trails for an hour or two. Often this is what really causes the damage. So, hoping for the best for your trail system--won't get back there this fall, but will have to see what developes before riding there next Summer. Good luck, Damnation

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    For a bunch of folks who have fought for access to open spaces near our homes and towns to recreate in the way we like, we come off sounding like a bunch of NIMBY pricks here. Litterally the same arguments I heard by pedestrian trail users back in Jersey trying to make MTBing illegal on County land in the mid 90s. Sounds like a win-win to me. More singletrack, less diggle, more people out enjoying the forrest.

  36. #36
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    Dave, That is not my back yard, I live 2 hours away in Central NH. And I have seen what Has happened in MY backyard. There is an ongoing battle at Bear Brook State Park, the biggest and best riding in NH: the horse people want access beyond doubletrack, and have torn up singletrack; A couple of what used to be flowy trails, Saltlick for instance, have been made nearly unrideable by Atv's /moto's use, including races. We all have our preferences, mine is to go to mt. bike systems that have no motorized uses.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by damnation View Post
    Dave, That is not my back yard, I live 2 hours away in Central NH. And I have seen what Has happened in MY backyard. There is an ongoing battle at Bear Brook State Park, the biggest and best riding in NH: the horse people want access beyond doubletrack, and have torn up singletrack; A couple of what used to be flowy trails, Saltlick for instance, have been made nearly unrideable by Atv's /moto's use, including races. We all have our preferences, mine is to go to mt. bike systems that have no motorized uses.
    You mean by allowing the ATVers access to a tiny portion of the forrest there the AT would not only add 2 miles more singletrack to replace some old double track, but also see less mtber traffic. Nice. Could keep the place from getting blown up by out-of-staters like the KT. Win win. I like to keep Vt MTB trails for VTers. All the out of staters come up and destroy our trails. I've seen it happen in Stowe/Waterbury/Kt. Give them an inch and they take a mile riding rain or shine becuase it's their "Vacation". We need to start a petition to keep Vt town and State forrest for VTers only.


















    Sounds pretty lame, eh?

  38. #38
    SP Singletrack rocks
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    yeah honestly

    trail do not get destroyed riding in the wet, the trail in stowe do well because apparently the soil stink here or the trail just do not shed water as well as other places. there is difference when riding in rain when the trail was dry for the past couple weeks vs riding in the sun after a couple days(or weeks of months of rain), this was the first year I ever saw extreme damage from riding riding after basically 2 months of rain....... with that said the trail is not riding great now and is shrinking back down to size.

    also I trying to encourage more out of staters to ride here, Why? because it pays the bills.

  39. #39
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    I made the ATV survey a writable PDF to make things a little easier for everybody. Fill it out and email it in. I rode Ascutney on Saturday and it was amazing per usual.


    ATV_Survey.pdf

  40. #40
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    Re: Can ATVs Share the Trails?

    I think the main item of contention would be if there's a strong ATV group that will self police each other and repair trails if damaged.

    I was in Northern MI this summer on shared trails. Had one ATV rider be super courteous (maybe 14yo) letting us by, throttling down as he approached etc. 2 miles later had two older teenagers come up on us from behind, go around, and then fishtail back and forth across the trail directly in front of us for a good quarter mile.

  41. #41
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    Personally, I don't get on well with the fumes, and noise of ATVs. I XC ski Bear brook in the winter, place is full of snowmobile fumes, and noise, it's really not much fun. Stay non motorized if possible, my 2 cents. Once you open the gates, you'll find trail poachers, and the demand for more ATV access.
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  42. #42
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    FYI, the West Windsor Select Board voted 3-0 to continue prohibition of motorized vehicles on Ascutney Trails, except for emergencies and maintenance, with the stipulation that the town continue to investigate options for allowing and controlling motorized access for handicapped residents.

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    Jim-- Glad to hear this update and it's outcome. Curious about the status of the Resort land, I think you mentioned this Summer or Fall that the courts ? were finally going to settle the ownership situation. I checked the Holiday Vacations website and tried to book a stay for a January or February weekend-just to see if they were open. It said no rooms were available, which I took to mean they were not open. Are they usually closed in the Winter or does this have something to do with the ownership situation. And of course wondering about the fate of the 2014 Vt. MTB Festival--hope nothing weird is going on like the situation at Burke with the new Resort owners and KT. Thanks, Damnation ....Your probably out making some turns today!

  44. #44
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    Made a few turns on the ski area, but mostly fought my way through the thickets and brambles that used to be ski slopes. The hotel has been under separate ownership (Orange Lakes/Holiday Inn) for quite a few years, and they stay pretty full all year with time-share swappers and Okemo skiers (20 minutes away.) Although we have no long-term agreement with the ski resort owner, we are 95% confident that the fest is a go, and that any future owner will welcome the MTB traffic. However, we could easily lose a few trails if he manages to carve off and sell some parcels. We'd just have to build some better ones.

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