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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Ventana will definitely take care of their customers; they always do. The issue would be more prospective customers reading the review. They'll probably shy away, which is bad. Lots of damage control to do.
    Ventana may have to hire one of those highly paid Spin Miesters to do damage control. I can't see this design flaw going over well with prospective 650B customers now there are so many other offerings. I hope for the best

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPA8580 View Post
    Well thats good to know but I would still like to know why they had this issue.
    Indeed. On the one hand, fai is using a full 160mm with a Hans Dampf, which is big for a 2.35 (probably big enough to be acceptable as a max. tire size), without tire/frame contact. On the other, P. Paul and Dirt Rag have had rubbing with nominally smaller tires. So the mystery is yet to be solved!

    Could some frames be different from others? All sizes share the same 74º seat tube angle, swingarm length, and pivot placements, so it seems unlikely. I wonder if the different shocks might have just minor variations in i2i and/or stroke, enough to allow rubbing on some frames but not on others. I have had shocks that didn't measure out exactly to spec in the past. Hmmm.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant View Post
    Indeed. On the one hand, fai is using a full 160mm with a Hans Dampf, which is big for a 2.35 (probably big enough to be acceptable as a max. tire size), without tire/frame contact. On the other, P. Paul and Dirt Rag have had rubbing with nominally smaller tires. So the mystery is yet to be solved!

    Could some frames be different from others? All sizes share the same 74º seat tube angle, swingarm length, and pivot placements, so it seems unlikely. I wonder if the different shocks might have just minor variations in i2i and/or stroke, enough to allow rubbing on some frames but not on others. I have had shocks that didn't measure out exactly to spec in the past. Hmmm.

    There was also something that the DR issue said about frame size. What size frames does Fai and his wife have?

    As far as shocks, yes, there can be variations. I've had it with Fox (a 7.87in shock ended up measuring 8" exactly i2i) and with a CCDB (one fit my Ciclon where the other didn't, but didn't measure it to see the difference).

    Keep in mind I ride small frames, so the i2i is more of a fitment issue than what it would do with the tire hitting the seat tube.
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  4. #29
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    Remember that air-shocks have a rubber bumper in them, so if it stops 1 or 2mm short with all the air out of the shock, it'll still hit during a real compression on the trail that uses all or nearly all of the travel.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    There was also something that the DR issue said about frame size. What size frames does Fai and his wife have?

    As far as shocks, yes, there can be variations. I've had it with Fox (a 7.87in shock ended up measuring 8" exactly i2i) and with a CCDB (one fit my Ciclon where the other didn't, but didn't measure it to see the difference).

    Keep in mind I ride small frames, so the i2i is more of a fitment issue than what it would do with the tire hitting the seat tube.
    Apparently the frame was a 21" frame which Sherwood said was their first. So it may lie in the geometry of the the very large frame.
    I myself would go for a small frame 15'5" or 16" frame so maybe the problem wouldn't be a problem there.
    But Still I wonder what the frames sizes are of the people who don't have this issue and what their riding style is like. I would definitely like to use it for the AM or even Enduro side of things.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Remember that air-shocks have a rubber bumper in them, so if it stops 1 or 2mm short with all the air out of the shock, it'll still hit during a real compression on the trail that uses all or nearly all of the travel.
    And in most cases, that "rubber bumper" is really just an O-ring.
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  7. #32
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    I've been on a 19" Zeus since late Feb. (could be March, time flies) and have run it in both 160mm and 140mm, but mostly 140mm with 2.3 Hans Dampf tires without any rub. The bike has been to Whistler, Squamish, raced in the Cascadia Cup Enduro and seen lots of 4-5ft drops. I run a 160mm fork and weigh 215 and the seat tube shows zero evidence of rub. That said, it was pretty easy to run out to the garage and see whats what. In the 140mm setting zero rub, In the 160mm setting... uh, rub.

    Clean Seat tube. No signs of rub after lots of abuse in mostly the 140mm setting
    Zeus frame design flaw?-img_1251.jpg
    Fully compressed in the 140mm setting. Close, but zero rub with a fully inflated Hans Dampf
    Zeus frame design flaw?-img_1253.jpg
    160mm setting and fully compressed. The tire is easily pressed into the seattube about an 1/8 of an inch.
    Zeus frame design flaw?-img_1254.jpg
    Last edited by wipp; 10-01-2013 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Added captions and corrected purchase date

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC822 View Post
    I had this problem at the beginning when running my Zeus at 160mm travel with a big fat Nobby Nic 2.35 at the back. My problem was that I did not use enough air in the Float CTD and this was solved by both adding 5 psi (which preserved full travel) and also switching to the 140mm travel position, which is plenty for my riding. Since then, I have never had any tire rub. I spoke with Sherwood about it and, if I remember correctly, he said that getting the shock Pushed to increase compression damping would solve the problem.
    Whoa, I hope that isn't true...the solution for a new 2300.00 frame is to send the shock out to a third party shock upgrade specialist for additional money, time and warranty voiding????

  9. #34
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    Wipp, thanks for the clear, definitive pics. So it seems that the Zeus can't be run at 160mm with a 650b rear wheel and meaty tire without some rubbing at bottom-out.

    Maybe V will offer a new rocker with a slightly shorter max travel setting. Solutions for now seem to be the 140mm setting, 26" rear wheel, or just living with occasional tire/frame contact. (A friend of mine has ridden his Stinky for years with a nice polished spot on the back of the seat tube!)

  10. #35
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    Albeant, my Zeus has always felt better at 140mm than 160mm, so for the most part I'm very happy with the frame, the quality is incredible and I've never felt short changed running it at 140mm. In the 160mm setting the spring rate was too linear for my taste. Not sure about the smaller wheel size in the back... but if your going to run a 2.5 tire it does make some sense in the 160mm setting, if I had any little wheels left I'd give it a try.

    All that said, I hope the folks at Ventana will offer a 150mm rocker with a slightly more progressive feel than the 140mm. Really splitting hairs with that request, because 10mm is about .4 inches of travel but why not ask?
    Last edited by wipp; 10-02-2013 at 07:56 AM. Reason: tweak

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant View Post
    Wipp, thanks for the clear, definitive pics. So it seems that the Zeus can't be run at 160mm with a 650b rear wheel and meaty tire without some rubbing at bottom-out.

    Maybe V will offer a new rocker with a slightly shorter max travel setting. Solutions for now seem to be the 140mm setting, 26" rear wheel, or just living with occasional tire/frame contact. (A friend of mine has ridden his Stinky for years with a nice polished spot on the back of the seat tube!)
    Ventana is losing credibility on this. I do hope they offer a fix, but silence says a lot.

    Sherwood has not posted a public reply about this here or anywhere else, nor has anything been posted on their website (other than you can buy a complete bike now). Shame too.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan View Post
    Whoa, I hope that isn't true...the solution for a new 2300.00 frame is to send the shock out to a third party shock upgrade specialist for additional money, time and warranty voiding????
    Pushing a shock to fix a design flaw sounds like a band-aid, where the cost is passed onto the customer. The Fox CTD is horrible, but it shouldn't break a suspension design--just feel like utter poo. Not sure how it voids a warranty though.
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  13. #38
    fai
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    Zeus frame design flaw?-dsc_1622.jpgI have now done just over 200 miles on my Zeus 160mm travel. No problem as you can see.
    AJR

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by fai View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSC_1622.JPG 
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ID:	836261I have now done just over 200 miles on my Zeus 160mm travel. No problem as you can see.
    so, how 'bout letting the air out of the shock & taking pictures showing clearly the space between the tube/tire, like wipp's
    breezy shade

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Ventana is losing credibility on this. I do hope they offer a fix, but silence says a lot.

    Sherwood has not posted a public reply about this here or anywhere else, nor has anything been posted on their website (other than you can buy a complete bike now). Shame too.
    IMO, Ventana is far from losing credibility over this one. Sure, it's not ideal for this to come to light with the new models, but as far as I know, this is one of the first problems across a model line-up (If it truly is across the whole Zeus model line) that I've seen from Ventana. Take a look at some of the other forums (Niner is a good example) and the problems seem to run rampant.

    I'm also not saying these types of problems are expectable either, but it definitely shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of a otherwise stand-up company.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wipp View Post
    I've been on a 19" Zeus since late Feb. (could be March, time flies) and have run it in both 160mm and 140mm, but mostly 140mm with 2.3 Hans Dampf tires without any rub. The bike has been to Whistler, Squamish, raced in the Cascadia Cup Enduro and seen lots of 4-5ft drops. I run a 160mm fork and weigh 215 and the seat tube shows zero evidence of rub. That said, it was pretty easy to run out to the garage and see whats what. In the 140mm setting zero rub, In the 160mm setting... uh, rub.

    Clean Seat tube. No signs of rub after lots of abuse in mostly the 140mm setting
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Fully compressed in the 140mm setting. Close, but zero rub with a fully inflated Hans Dampf
    Click image for larger version. 

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    160mm setting and fully compressed. The tire is easily pressed into the seattube about an 1/8 of an inch.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks Wipp for the indeed very clear pictures.

    The Zeus is becoming less and less of a favorite in my book, although I'm not willing to drop it just yet. But I really would like to know exactly how come a bunch of people have rub and a bunch don't.

    To me this is looking more and more like a shock pressure issue. This combined with tires larger than 2.25 tires.

    But isn't the Zeus meant for the AM/Enduro market? Don't most people in that segment use big tires? And if a frame can do 140/160mm of travel, shouldn't it work just as well in 140mm as in 160mm?

    Sherwood needs to fix this or at least come with a recommendation on how to solve the issue. A different rocker might change this but reducing the travel would in my book make the frame just not well designed. In other words a reduction in travel would make me choose something else.

    But I have faith that this will be sorted out and I will give Sherwood and his crew a chance to fix this. But if by next year this issue still persists than I will spend my money elsewhere.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    IMO, Ventana is far from losing credibility over this one. Sure, it's not ideal for this to come to light with the new models, but as far as I know, this is one of the first problems across a model line-up (If it truly is across the whole Zeus model line) that I've seen from Ventana. Take a look at some of the other forums (Niner is a good example) and the problems seem to run rampant.

    I'm also not saying these types of problems are expectable either, but it definitely shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of a otherwise stand-up company.
    Ventana is a stand-up company. I had bikes from them over a 9 year period, and my husband still owns a Ciclon and rides it.

    I don't think it affects current Ventana owners, because they've worked with Sherwood and they know how he handles things. But it would affect someone who's on the fence of buying a bike from Ventana or other vendors.

    I really hope that Sherwood does make it right, but the silence is a bit disconcerting given the publicity of this issue.
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  18. #43
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    I think a lot of people don't have problems because it's pretty damn hard to use 100% of the shocks travel when the shock is aired up, in fact I think it's near impossible. I also don't think it's a good idea to rely on the shock air pressure vs frame design to prevent rub. I'm not looking for that extra travel but I might want to run an even bigger tire at some point so a fix would be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by TPA8580 View Post
    Thanks Wipp for the indeed very clear pictures.

    The Zeus is becoming less and less of a favorite in my book, although I'm not willing to drop it just yet. But I really would like to know exactly how come a bunch of people have rub and a bunch don't.

    To me this is looking more and more like a shock pressure issue. This combined with tires larger than 2.25 tires.

    But isn't the Zeus meant for the AM/Enduro market? Don't most people in that segment use big tires? And if a frame can do 140/160mm of travel, shouldn't it work just as well in 140mm as in 160mm?

    Sherwood needs to fix this or at least come with a recommendation on how to solve the issue. A different rocker might change this but reducing the travel would in my book make the frame just not well designed. In other words a reduction in travel would make me choose something else.

    But I have faith that this will be sorted out and I will give Sherwood and his crew a chance to fix this. But if by next year this issue still persists than I will spend my money elsewhere.

  19. #44
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    We just got the test bike back this week. Will take a bit of time to see what is up.

    I have been silent because I had nothing to say since I had not had the opportunity to see the test bike. One thing I will say is that my response printed in the magazine was taken a bit out of context in that I was answering a differently directed question regarding tire, size, and rub and based on the tester's tire description I mistakenly thought he had gotten ahold of a new tire that was not available to the public yet...but somehow due to space, or whatever, that question did not show up in the article but my response did.

    I will post up here when I figure out what is up and I won't speculate until I have time to look things over. In the end there is no reason why a customer shouldn't be able to run a fat 650b tire on a Zeus and you can rest assured that I will make it so.
    SPG

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  20. #45
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    Perhaps we should look at this issue and ask what was wrong with the 26"er's? When you read online or print issues the complaints were first 29"er's posing design and travel limitations, so the industry stepped in and said hey what about 650B. Us as consumers enjoy the latest and sometimes not always the greatest products, so we gave 29ers and 275 a shot and here we are again facing design limitations and travel issues with larger wheels- 275. Frame builders essentially are trying to deliver for consumers the ride characteristics of a 26'er but for the bigger wheels. When reviews are done for the larger wheeled bikes the nic-picks look for characteristics that liken to the handling and fit of a 26"er.

    I don't intend this to be a wheel debate, just a thought.

    Yes 29"ers can be faster in the right environment

    275 could be the answer for those looking for a bit more roll over roots and rocks but share similar traits to a 26"er.

    ......and 26"er has been around we've logged many miles on them, had many great rides and suited many disciplines of mountain biking.

  21. #46
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    I've had my Zeus for just over a year and had ZERO rubbing issues. I have a 17" frame and have run 2.3 Neomotos until they were toast and now am running 2.35 Nobby Nics (the Nobby Nics are significantly larger tires with better grip IMHO). Other than the very first ride, I've been running the rear at 160mm and do bottom out the shock every week or so. If it would have happened at all I would have seen it. There might be rubbing issues with the larger sizes, but not the 17" that's for sure.

  22. #47
    fai
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    I cannot understand why some frames have a problem and some do not. I have let all the air out of the shocks on my wifes and my own Zeus frames and is not possible to get the tyre to contact the seat tube. It is clear that this is not the case on all frames. This is a question I do not have an answer to. They are all made on the same jig and should have the same parts. I know the swing arm is the same as a 26" with different dropouts and the rockers and connecting arm from the swing arm to the rockers are different. I have measured the difference in length of the arms the 26" is approx 345mm and the 27.5 is approx 360mm. These parts look the same and if by some chance the wrong one was fitted then I can see a real problem with contact. I am not giving that as an explanation, but if one frame clears then they all should.
    AJR

  23. #48
    fai
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    Had to wait to get someone to push down on the saddle. This is pushed down as far as the shock allows.Zeus frame design flaw?-zeus-005.jpg
    AJR

  24. #49
    fai
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    This is with me sitting on it with no air in the shock.Zeus frame design flaw?-zeus-004.jpg I cant explain it.
    AJR

  25. #50
    El CicloPath!!!!!!!
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    In my experience with a lot of single pivot designs, all have the potential of having the tire contact the seat tube with the limiting factor being the shock stroke. Actually, all frames have this potential issue if the swing arm follows a similar arc. Take the shock off any fully, and i think you can compress and get them all to touch, so doest it have to do with shock stroke, spring rate/weight, and set up?

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