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  1. #1
    hellraiser
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    Ventana suspension and brake jack

    Hi there,

    I'm wondering if anyone has used a floating brake modification such as the Brake Therapy (http://www.therapycomponents.com/BRAKETHERAPY.htm) to eliminate brake jack on the Ventana rear suspension.

    I've also heard some people mention that they actually like a little bit of "brake squat". They say that the "squatting" effectively changes the geometry of the bike to make it better on the downhills(?). With the negative of having decreased rear suspension performance I take it...

    Discuss.

    -Coach
    eh?

  2. #2
    Bodhisattva
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    Ventana's rear squats. It doesn't "jack."

    Rising of the rear can sometimes occur when the rear, which squats under braking, loses traction resulting in an extension movement.

    The seatstay pivot rear isn't as active as a Horst-link bike and I wouldn't mind seeing a floating brake option to make it more active - provided that unit doesn't add a lot of weight. But I've come to really appreciate the squat which makes the bike feel more stable on descents and I've learned to compensate by using a lighter touch on the rear brake.

  3. #3
    jrm
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    If the suspension is

    is balanced the squat is less noticable..

    helps too..

  4. #4
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Ventana's rear squats. It doesn't "jack."

    Rising of the rear can sometimes occur when the rear, which squats under braking, loses traction resulting in an extension movement.

    The seatstay pivot rear isn't as active as a Horst-link bike and I wouldn't mind seeing a floating brake option to make it more active - provided that unit doesn't add a lot of weight. But I've come to really appreciate the squat which makes the bike feel more stable on descents and I've learned to compensate by using a lighter touch on the rear brake.
    its so funny that you actually try to fool people into believing that you understand any of what you are saying.....shut your piehole and jack this b!tch

  5. #5
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    its so funny that you actually try to fool people into believing that you understand any of what you are saying.....shut your piehole and jack this b!tch
    Speak softly and carry a powerful CAD program !
    Last edited by The Squeaky Wheel; 11-27-2007 at 05:22 PM.

  6. #6
    "El Whatever"
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    If anything the suspension will squat, rather than jack.

    I'll take a decent behaved brake squating design over a "fully independent" one.

    If you've ridden a HL bike against a single pivot, you'll understand.

    A squating suspension will help a little with mass transfer over the front, which in turn weighs the rear end a bit. You don't gain and maybe you'll lose some traction due to suspension stiffening.

    But in an "independent" desing (think ICT) the suspension will not squat and in turn this will make your weight to shift forwards during braking, unweighing the rear end and make you lose some traction.

    So, there's a fine line and on top of that, rider's technique plays a role. Some will notice it more than others.

    When I got my HL bike, I felt like going over the bars as compared to my primitive single pivot.
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  7. #7
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    If anything the suspension will squat, rather than jack.

    I'll take a decent behaved brake squating design over a "fully independent" one.

    If you've ridden a HL bike against a single pivot, you'll understand.

    A squating suspension will help a little with mass transfer over the front, which in turn weighs the rear end a bit. You don't gain and maybe you'll lose some traction due to suspension stiffening.

    But in an "independent" desing (think ICT) the suspension will not squat and in turn this will make your weight to shift forwards during braking, unweighing the rear end and make you lose some traction.

    So, there's a fine line and on top of that, rider's technique plays a role. Some will notice it more than others.

    When I got my HL bike, I felt like going over the bars as compared to my primitive single pivot.
    no moderators allowed on the ventana forum, ESPECIALLY ones mentioning ICGhey technology.....night night warp!

  8. #8
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    no moderators allowed on the ventana forum, ESPECIALLY ones mentioning ICGhey technology.....night night warp!
    I hate you... but you already knew that.
    Check my Site

  9. #9
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    why would you want to jack off a brake ?~?

  10. #10
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    Ventana jacks just like a cheapo 4 bar, just don't use the back brake problem solved!

  11. #11
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    I guess I really don't understand the above statements.

    Everything else being equal, I can believe that the differences between faux-bar and HL are negligible, but you're not going to convince me faux-bar is actually superior.

    Do you really believe that the magic Ventana ride would actually be hurt by moving the pivot to the chainstay?

    My disclaimer is that I recently bought an HL bike and I like it. I rode a ton of bikes and liked the a HL best (if you read my demo bike review post, I also had an HL bike last on my list). For the record, I couldn't demo a Ventana so I'm aiming this at all faux-bar bikes (Kona, etc). I don't know a ton about the physics of the system but it seems that watching the suspension path with the pivot on the seatstay will always, to some degree, cause stiffening of the rear suspension with pedalling and braking. Again, I'm sure you can design it so the stiffening is very small (perhaps not noticable to most people) but you can't completely eliminate it.

    If the HL setup is inferior to "faux bar" why does the rest of the world use the HL? Why do floating brake systems even exist?

    I read the UK mags (What MTB, etc). Ghost/Scott/etc all use HL pivots there. Scott and others don't use it here because, I assume, of the patent.

    When does the HL patent expire? It will be interesting to see who designs what at that point.

    Please help me understand.

  12. #12
    Bodhisattva
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    meph,
    There are pros & cons to every design.
    Don't believe the marketing hype that HL is better at everything.

    I've owned several HL bikes & several seatstay-pivot (faux bar) bikes. As far as I'm concerned, implementation is more important than the theoretical design.

    The posts above are accurate. Like I said, I wouldn't mind my Ventana's rear being more active under braking (would be remedied by a floater) but it's not a big concern and I prefer the inherent squat as opposed to the neutral feeling of a HL bike.

    As far as pedaling goes, I can't tell any difference between my faux Turner (Sultan) & Ventana(Terremoto) v. my HL Turner (6-pack) & Titus (racer-x).
    Last edited by The Squeaky Wheel; 11-28-2007 at 07:44 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    As far as pedaling goes, I can't tell any difference between my faux Turner (Sultan) & Ventana(Terremoto) v. my HL Turner (6-pacl) & Titus (racer-x).
    Turn the platform off on your shocks and then can you make the same statement?

  14. #14
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Turn the platform off on your shocks and then can you make the same statement?
    I honestly don't know.

    I honestly don't care.

    Most modern shocks have platform. And when well tuned, ala Push, the transition from platform to activity isn't felt. I have no desire or need to step back to a technologically backward non-platform shock on my XC/AM bikes.

  15. #15
    Unfit Norwegian
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    This seems like a good place to rant a little about one of my pet peeves:

    People seem to think that "four bar"="horst link". That's not the case. "Four bar" is just a type of linkage used in the rear suspension of many mountain bikes. The term "faux bar" makes it sound like a four bar with the pivot on the seatstay instead of on the chainstay (ie. a bike with a "Horst Link") isn't a "four bar" bike. Well, it is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_bar_linkage

    Wikipedia's page on bike suspension just adds to this disinformation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension

    A "horst link" is just one implementation of the "four bar" design. What people call "faux bar" bikes is another.

  16. #16
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    If it doesn't matter and its all about the shock why not just go with a single pivot for ease of maintenance and lower costs?

  17. #17
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    A bike that rides well is a bike that rides well, no matter where the rear dropout pivot is. Some people are unable to get past the full page magazine ads Specialized has been putting out for years.

    I love the weekly questions in other places on mtbr where people ask what bike to get and refer to wanting an fsr design, thinking the pivot is a type of suspension and not an element of many different designs.

    FWIW, Specialized's tests never showed more improvement than a few percent. They released a bunch of graphs in around 1998 or 1999 comparing "fsr" and non-fsr suspensions under different characteristics, but never qualified how they were testing (ie: on a jig or dynamically, while riding). Additionally, they also altered the scale of the graphs to make the differential appear wider than it really was. Quantified, most of the differential was not much beyond negligible numbers.

    At one time the Horst link was the holy grail because it allowed a designer a minimum of trial and error to get a particular ride at a time when there was more cardboarding, less FEA, and more weld/mockups that cost a lot of money. Now there's actual data, and better computer technology in easy access to design and virtually test before the mockups are made. It's a lot easier, faster, and cheaper to design a frame now and this has helped reduce or eliminate the negative riding traits of most every design, which even the revered fsr carrying designs have as well.

  18. #18
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    If it doesn't matter and its all about the shock why not just go with a single pivot for ease of maintenance and lower costs?
    I did go with a single pivot. In fact, I own two of them: my Sultan & Terremoto.

    Awwwwwwww............you're just being coy.

    I'll let you answer that question if you like.

  19. #19
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Turn the platform off on your shocks and then can you make the same statement?

    I had 2 FSR bikes before my 1st singlepivot....I could make the FSRs bob just as well... so the technology is there, why not use it ..... the advantage I see from a "plain" single pivot to a "faux bar" SP, is that if implemented correctly, it can be stiffer at similar weight..... the "plain" SP needs a huge axle and bearings to achieve the stiffness (as you can see on a lot of DH single pivot bikes)

  20. #20
    Having a nice day!
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    I guess this boils down to different strokes for different folks. If having a chainstay pivot makes you think the ride of a bike is going to be magically better, get it and be done with it. I have ridden several nice bikes with the HL, and while they rode fine, I can't say they were head and shoulders better than the Ventana. To be honest, for how I ride, I have never really noticed any brake jack with my Ventana.

    And the argument about requiring platform shocks is moot. They are here and aren't going anywhere. Might as well take advantage of them. And I have seen plenty of HL bikes bob without them as well.

  21. #21
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar
    To be honest, for how I ride, I have never really noticed any brake jack with my Ventana.
    You shouldn't because it doesn't

  22. #22
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph
    Everything else being equal, I can believe that the differences between faux-bar and HL are negligible, but you're not going to convince me faux-bar is actually superior.
    Superior is a relative term. Too shady and subjective to be considered seriously.

    There are good single pivots and bad single pivots. Good HL bikes and bad HL bikes.

    In the future when the patent of the HL expires, there will still be good HL bikes and bad HL bikes. I can actually bet there will be more bad HL bikes than now.

    Get over it... there's more to a bike than where the pivots are placed (unless they're placed very wrong, but we went over that since a long time ago). Geometry and fit are first, closely followed by construction.

    And Ventana's have the right geometry, have the best construction in industry and it's up to you to choose the right fit.
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  23. #23
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Superior is a relative term. Too shady and subjective to be considered seriously.

    There are good single pivots and bad single pivots. Good HL bikes and bad HL bikes.

    In the future when the patent of the HL expires, there will still be good HL bikes and bad HL bikes. I can actually bet there will be more bad HL bikes than now.

    Get over it... there's more to a bike than where the pivots are placed (unless they're placed very wrong, but we went over that since a long time ago). Geometry and fit are first, closely followed by construction.

    And Ventana's have the right geometry, have the best construction in industry and it's up to you to choose the right fit.
    Well said!

  24. #24
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    See, that's good to know. Here I was thinking it was because I ride like a wuss!

  25. #25
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar
    See, that's good to know. Here I was thinking it was because I ride like a wuss!


  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph
    I guess I really don't understand the above statements.

    Everything else being equal, I can believe that the differences between faux-bar and HL are negligible, but you're not going to convince me faux-bar is actually superior.

    Do you really believe that the magic Ventana ride would actually be hurt by moving the pivot to the chainstay?

    My disclaimer is that I recently bought an HL bike and I like it. I rode a ton of bikes and liked the a HL best (if you read my demo bike review post, I also had an HL bike last on my list). For the record, I couldn't demo a Ventana so I'm aiming this at all faux-bar bikes (Kona, etc). I don't know a ton about the physics of the system but it seems that watching the suspension path with the pivot on the seatstay will always, to some degree, cause stiffening of the rear suspension with pedalling and braking. Again, I'm sure you can design it so the stiffening is very small (perhaps not noticable to most people) but you can't completely eliminate it.

    If the HL setup is inferior to "faux bar" why does the rest of the world use the HL? Why do floating brake systems even exist?

    I read the UK mags (What MTB, etc). Ghost/Scott/etc all use HL pivots there. Scott and others don't use it here because, I assume, of the patent.


    When does the HL patent expire? It will be interesting to see who designs what at that point.

    Please help me understand.
    That's in part due to the fact that the UK bike mags are viciously biased against anything that doesn't have an HL and the bias shows in their reviews, usually in the introduction to the particular bike. They've even positively reviewed HL bikes that have been known to be poorer implementations of them. Additionally, Turner also mentioned that his HL went almost horizontal to the axle in its last incarnation, thus nullifying most of the impact it would have. This was one of the reasons why the non-HL equipped frames rode pretty much the same. Additionally, in his view, the three pivots about the rocker have the most impact on the riding traits of the bike, with the rear dropout contributing somewhat to the overall. In other words, the dropout position is only a portion of the whole and it's not make or break, especially now when design technology is pretty advanced.

    Also, the GT LTS was an HL design and it jacked horribly and was incredibly prone to pedal-induced actuation. That is only one example. Companies like Ventana have tuned their non-horst four bars to ride very well and for those who only care about ride, whether the linkage contains an HL or not, they are a viable option.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp

    And Ventana's have the right geometry, have the best construction in industry and it's up to you to choose the right fit.

    Everybody can make sweeping statements, saying "best construction in the industry" means what? Longest warranty? Never breaks? We all know mtn bikes break eventually even Ventannas sometimes just months after the warranty expires.

    Maybe instead say they look nicer than many other bikes and work as well as many other faux bars? Seems the bike industry is so bent on maintaining high margin models that people need to feel the added cost is worth it by selling the sizzle rather than the steak?

  28. #28
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Everybody can make sweeping statements, saying "best construction in the industry" means what? Longest warranty? Never breaks? We all know mtn bikes break eventually even Ventannas sometimes just months after the warranty expires.

    Maybe instead say they look nicer than many other bikes and work as well as many other faux bars? Seems the bike industry is so bent on maintaining high margin models that people need to feel the added cost is worth it by selling the sizzle rather than the steak?
    BT,...even after warranty expires, Sherwood & Co take care of you... just look around these boards and see how/why.....

    Ventana's can break..like any other... how easy it is to get a replacement is what makes one brand stand apart form the other....

    I had experience with Yeti on warranty...and they were also top notch...so Ventana doesn't have a good service monopoly.......... however good service seems to be the exception not the rule unfortunately...

  29. #29
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    Sure they will take care of you, for the right cost they will, so will all boutique bike companies. Some a slower than others. Ventanna is one of the better ones no doubt but you pay for it by buying 1600$+ frames. No mystery there

  30. #30
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Sure they will take care of you, for the right cost they will, so will all boutique bike companies. Some a slower than others. Ventanna is one of the better ones no doubt but you pay for it by buying 1600$+ frames. No mystery there
    again...take a look at the boards...and you will see that they go beyond what's written in paper


    and unfortunately, it doesn't happen with all "boutique brands" either...

  31. #31
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Maybe instead say they look nicer than many other bikes and work as well as many other faux bars? Seems the bike industry is so bent on maintaining high margin models that people need to feel the added cost is worth it by selling the sizzle rather than the steak?
    This is a true statement... But as you mentioned, with Ventana and other "boutique" brands, you get what you pay for.

    But then you have brands doing really high-volume runs and still selling frames for a lot of dough.

    Case in point... Take a Specialized Enduro SL and a Titus El Guapo Ti. Both top versions will run for around 4k. The Spesh will include the fork for 3900. The Ti Guapo is 3.3K, add a 1K fork and it makes 4.3K... 4 hundreds bucks difference. Both lifetime warrantied. One is made god knows where and the other is hand-welded in the People's Republic of Arizona.

    Who's selling the sizzle and who's selling the steak???

    At any rate, there is a bike out there for every user. If you like 400 bikes, that's perfectly fine. If you like 4000 bikes, that's perfectly fine too. Pick your poison.
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  32. #32
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    Again,

    When does the HL patent expire?

    If Ventana and others use the HL at that time then what does that mean?

  33. #33
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    It means they're opting to use it. Simply put.

  34. #34
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph
    Again,

    When does the HL patent expire?

    If Ventana and others use the HL at that time then what does that mean?
    Ventana won't.

    They didn't before the HL was "patented".

    Bet your dollar that Turner won't either.

  35. #35
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    Wink Personal preference...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Ventana won't.

    They didn't before the HL was "patented".

    Bet your dollar that Turner won't either.
    As a former owner of 7 GT LTS (Less Than Satisfactory), I appreciate the added links and added maintence required with a HL design. I especially enjoyed having to regularly replace those HL bushings with a special sealed bearing kit and then service those sealed bearings once they went "clunky" and then suffer from the eventual HL slop.

    Yeah, it wasn't the best execution of an HL design but it was and is my only experience with HL bikes...such fond, fond mem'ries. Can't wait until 2017 when there'll be this kinda of mistey-eyed lust for VPP bikes. LOL!

  36. #36
    jms
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    Just enjoy your bike

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    A bike that rides well is a bike that rides well, no matter where the rear dropout pivot is. Some people are unable to get past the full page magazine ads Specialized has been putting out for years.
    Well said. It begins there and ends there. My Ventana El Rey squats while braking, and I appreciate that quality after [briefly] trying to get comfortable descending on a Maverick Repodaso.
    It's a great bike built by people that care about their product tremendously. It climbs and descends very well [as someone in this thread could attest to]. As to what I paid for with the purchase of a Ventana, I'm comfortable with that also - and that's the only one it should matter to. I hope everyone is enjoying their bike as much - we're all so fortunate just to be able to ride anything, let alone any of the equipment we're dissecting in this thread.

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