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  1. #1
    hellraiser
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    Ventana suspension and brake jack

    Hi there,

    I'm wondering if anyone has used a floating brake modification such as the Brake Therapy (http://www.therapycomponents.com/BRAKETHERAPY.htm) to eliminate brake jack on the Ventana rear suspension.

    I've also heard some people mention that they actually like a little bit of "brake squat". They say that the "squatting" effectively changes the geometry of the bike to make it better on the downhills(?). With the negative of having decreased rear suspension performance I take it...

    Discuss.

    -Coach
    eh?

  2. #2
    Bodhisattva
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    Ventana's rear squats. It doesn't "jack."

    Rising of the rear can sometimes occur when the rear, which squats under braking, loses traction resulting in an extension movement.

    The seatstay pivot rear isn't as active as a Horst-link bike and I wouldn't mind seeing a floating brake option to make it more active - provided that unit doesn't add a lot of weight. But I've come to really appreciate the squat which makes the bike feel more stable on descents and I've learned to compensate by using a lighter touch on the rear brake.

  3. #3
    jrm
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    If the suspension is

    is balanced the squat is less noticable..

    helps too..

  4. #4
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    Ventana's rear squats. It doesn't "jack."

    Rising of the rear can sometimes occur when the rear, which squats under braking, loses traction resulting in an extension movement.

    The seatstay pivot rear isn't as active as a Horst-link bike and I wouldn't mind seeing a floating brake option to make it more active - provided that unit doesn't add a lot of weight. But I've come to really appreciate the squat which makes the bike feel more stable on descents and I've learned to compensate by using a lighter touch on the rear brake.
    its so funny that you actually try to fool people into believing that you understand any of what you are saying.....shut your piehole and jack this b!tch

  5. #5
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    its so funny that you actually try to fool people into believing that you understand any of what you are saying.....shut your piehole and jack this b!tch
    Speak softly and carry a powerful CAD program !
    Last edited by The Squeaky Wheel; 11-27-2007 at 04:22 PM.

  6. #6
    "El Whatever"
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    If anything the suspension will squat, rather than jack.

    I'll take a decent behaved brake squating design over a "fully independent" one.

    If you've ridden a HL bike against a single pivot, you'll understand.

    A squating suspension will help a little with mass transfer over the front, which in turn weighs the rear end a bit. You don't gain and maybe you'll lose some traction due to suspension stiffening.

    But in an "independent" desing (think ICT) the suspension will not squat and in turn this will make your weight to shift forwards during braking, unweighing the rear end and make you lose some traction.

    So, there's a fine line and on top of that, rider's technique plays a role. Some will notice it more than others.

    When I got my HL bike, I felt like going over the bars as compared to my primitive single pivot.
    Check my Site

  7. #7
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    If anything the suspension will squat, rather than jack.

    I'll take a decent behaved brake squating design over a "fully independent" one.

    If you've ridden a HL bike against a single pivot, you'll understand.

    A squating suspension will help a little with mass transfer over the front, which in turn weighs the rear end a bit. You don't gain and maybe you'll lose some traction due to suspension stiffening.

    But in an "independent" desing (think ICT) the suspension will not squat and in turn this will make your weight to shift forwards during braking, unweighing the rear end and make you lose some traction.

    So, there's a fine line and on top of that, rider's technique plays a role. Some will notice it more than others.

    When I got my HL bike, I felt like going over the bars as compared to my primitive single pivot.
    no moderators allowed on the ventana forum, ESPECIALLY ones mentioning ICGhey technology.....night night warp!

  8. #8
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    no moderators allowed on the ventana forum, ESPECIALLY ones mentioning ICGhey technology.....night night warp!
    I hate you... but you already knew that.
    Check my Site

  9. #9
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    why would you want to jack off a brake ?~?

  10. #10
    just along for the ride
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    Ventana jacks just like a cheapo 4 bar, just don't use the back brake problem solved!

  11. #11
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    I guess I really don't understand the above statements.

    Everything else being equal, I can believe that the differences between faux-bar and HL are negligible, but you're not going to convince me faux-bar is actually superior.

    Do you really believe that the magic Ventana ride would actually be hurt by moving the pivot to the chainstay?

    My disclaimer is that I recently bought an HL bike and I like it. I rode a ton of bikes and liked the a HL best (if you read my demo bike review post, I also had an HL bike last on my list). For the record, I couldn't demo a Ventana so I'm aiming this at all faux-bar bikes (Kona, etc). I don't know a ton about the physics of the system but it seems that watching the suspension path with the pivot on the seatstay will always, to some degree, cause stiffening of the rear suspension with pedalling and braking. Again, I'm sure you can design it so the stiffening is very small (perhaps not noticable to most people) but you can't completely eliminate it.

    If the HL setup is inferior to "faux bar" why does the rest of the world use the HL? Why do floating brake systems even exist?

    I read the UK mags (What MTB, etc). Ghost/Scott/etc all use HL pivots there. Scott and others don't use it here because, I assume, of the patent.

    When does the HL patent expire? It will be interesting to see who designs what at that point.

    Please help me understand.

  12. #12
    Bodhisattva
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    meph,
    There are pros & cons to every design.
    Don't believe the marketing hype that HL is better at everything.

    I've owned several HL bikes & several seatstay-pivot (faux bar) bikes. As far as I'm concerned, implementation is more important than the theoretical design.

    The posts above are accurate. Like I said, I wouldn't mind my Ventana's rear being more active under braking (would be remedied by a floater) but it's not a big concern and I prefer the inherent squat as opposed to the neutral feeling of a HL bike.

    As far as pedaling goes, I can't tell any difference between my faux Turner (Sultan) & Ventana(Terremoto) v. my HL Turner (6-pack) & Titus (racer-x).
    Last edited by The Squeaky Wheel; 11-28-2007 at 06:44 AM.

  13. #13
    just along for the ride
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    As far as pedaling goes, I can't tell any difference between my faux Turner (Sultan) & Ventana(Terremoto) v. my HL Turner (6-pacl) & Titus (racer-x).
    Turn the platform off on your shocks and then can you make the same statement?

  14. #14
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Turn the platform off on your shocks and then can you make the same statement?
    I honestly don't know.

    I honestly don't care.

    Most modern shocks have platform. And when well tuned, ala Push, the transition from platform to activity isn't felt. I have no desire or need to step back to a technologically backward non-platform shock on my XC/AM bikes.

  15. #15
    Unfit Norwegian
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    This seems like a good place to rant a little about one of my pet peeves:

    People seem to think that "four bar"="horst link". That's not the case. "Four bar" is just a type of linkage used in the rear suspension of many mountain bikes. The term "faux bar" makes it sound like a four bar with the pivot on the seatstay instead of on the chainstay (ie. a bike with a "Horst Link") isn't a "four bar" bike. Well, it is.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_bar_linkage

    Wikipedia's page on bike suspension just adds to this disinformation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension

    A "horst link" is just one implementation of the "four bar" design. What people call "faux bar" bikes is another.

  16. #16
    just along for the ride
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    If it doesn't matter and its all about the shock why not just go with a single pivot for ease of maintenance and lower costs?

  17. #17
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    A bike that rides well is a bike that rides well, no matter where the rear dropout pivot is. Some people are unable to get past the full page magazine ads Specialized has been putting out for years.

    I love the weekly questions in other places on mtbr where people ask what bike to get and refer to wanting an fsr design, thinking the pivot is a type of suspension and not an element of many different designs.

    FWIW, Specialized's tests never showed more improvement than a few percent. They released a bunch of graphs in around 1998 or 1999 comparing "fsr" and non-fsr suspensions under different characteristics, but never qualified how they were testing (ie: on a jig or dynamically, while riding). Additionally, they also altered the scale of the graphs to make the differential appear wider than it really was. Quantified, most of the differential was not much beyond negligible numbers.

    At one time the Horst link was the holy grail because it allowed a designer a minimum of trial and error to get a particular ride at a time when there was more cardboarding, less FEA, and more weld/mockups that cost a lot of money. Now there's actual data, and better computer technology in easy access to design and virtually test before the mockups are made. It's a lot easier, faster, and cheaper to design a frame now and this has helped reduce or eliminate the negative riding traits of most every design, which even the revered fsr carrying designs have as well.

  18. #18
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    If it doesn't matter and its all about the shock why not just go with a single pivot for ease of maintenance and lower costs?
    I did go with a single pivot. In fact, I own two of them: my Sultan & Terremoto.

    Awwwwwwww............you're just being coy.

    I'll let you answer that question if you like.

  19. #19
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brown_Teeth
    Turn the platform off on your shocks and then can you make the same statement?

    I had 2 FSR bikes before my 1st singlepivot....I could make the FSRs bob just as well... so the technology is there, why not use it ..... the advantage I see from a "plain" single pivot to a "faux bar" SP, is that if implemented correctly, it can be stiffer at similar weight..... the "plain" SP needs a huge axle and bearings to achieve the stiffness (as you can see on a lot of DH single pivot bikes)

  20. #20
    Having a nice day!
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    I guess this boils down to different strokes for different folks. If having a chainstay pivot makes you think the ride of a bike is going to be magically better, get it and be done with it. I have ridden several nice bikes with the HL, and while they rode fine, I can't say they were head and shoulders better than the Ventana. To be honest, for how I ride, I have never really noticed any brake jack with my Ventana.

    And the argument about requiring platform shocks is moot. They are here and aren't going anywhere. Might as well take advantage of them. And I have seen plenty of HL bikes bob without them as well.

  21. #21
    Bodhisattva
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar
    To be honest, for how I ride, I have never really noticed any brake jack with my Ventana.
    You shouldn't because it doesn't

  22. #22
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph
    Everything else being equal, I can believe that the differences between faux-bar and HL are negligible, but you're not going to convince me faux-bar is actually superior.
    Superior is a relative term. Too shady and subjective to be considered seriously.

    There are good single pivots and bad single pivots. Good HL bikes and bad HL bikes.

    In the future when the patent of the HL expires, there will still be good HL bikes and bad HL bikes. I can actually bet there will be more bad HL bikes than now.

    Get over it... there's more to a bike than where the pivots are placed (unless they're placed very wrong, but we went over that since a long time ago). Geometry and fit are first, closely followed by construction.

    And Ventana's have the right geometry, have the best construction in industry and it's up to you to choose the right fit.
    Check my Site

  23. #23
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Superior is a relative term. Too shady and subjective to be considered seriously.

    There are good single pivots and bad single pivots. Good HL bikes and bad HL bikes.

    In the future when the patent of the HL expires, there will still be good HL bikes and bad HL bikes. I can actually bet there will be more bad HL bikes than now.

    Get over it... there's more to a bike than where the pivots are placed (unless they're placed very wrong, but we went over that since a long time ago). Geometry and fit are first, closely followed by construction.

    And Ventana's have the right geometry, have the best construction in industry and it's up to you to choose the right fit.
    Well said!

  24. #24
    Having a nice day!
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    See, that's good to know. Here I was thinking it was because I ride like a wuss!

  25. #25
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar
    See, that's good to know. Here I was thinking it was because I ride like a wuss!


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