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  1. #1
    hellraiser
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    Ventana rear end lateral stiffness comparison

    I read the article on the ventana website regarding their F.S. design criteria and I noticed that the big plus for the Ventana suspension is the lateral stiffness as compared to a Horst Link suspension. Granted, I haven't flexed them side by side and I'm not saying that the Ventana isn't laterally stiffer. But when I look at the two suspension designs there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference that would affect lateral stiffness.

    Looking at the new Stumpjumper suspension as an example (FSR with rocker arms) it looks very similar to the Ventana, they both have; a main pivot; a pivot either above or below rear axle; a pivot at the rocker arm; and then the same type of rocker/shock assembly mounted to the frame. The only difference is that the FSR has the pivot on the chainstay wheras the Ventana has the pivot on the seatstay. Is this the difference that makes one design that much more laterally stiff than the other? Or does the quality of construction account for the difference?

    Cheers,

    -Coach
    eh?

  2. #2
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    you need to take a look at the tubing and the double bearings at every point (on the quad bearing setup) to see where the difference is....

  3. #3
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    There's a big difference in flex between my wife's horst link racer x (bushings and bearing combo at the pivots) and my ciclon with quad bearings.

  4. #4
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    it is my understanding that the width (and general burliness) of the rocker arm also contribute greatly to the lateral stiffness. not to mention a high level of materials and quality control.

  5. #5
    Founder: Dirty3hirties
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    In terms of pure physics, I don't doubt that the Ventana is stiffer. Besides the quad bearings, tubing, the Ventana's pivot is on the seat stay vs. the chainstay. So the rear axle for the Ventana is on the stiffer part of the rear triangle vs on a HL bike, the axle is on the SS which is not built to handle the same loads as the CS. So a combination of the bearings, tubing, rockers and the physics inherent in the pivot location, that all adds up.

    BUT....it doesn't mean that just because the Ventana has a stiffer rear on paper, that it translates into a better ride. If you're a clydesdale then a Ventana is a great choice....or if you ride pretty agressively.....have a history of breaking frames...etc. There's a ton of other reasons. But Titus's (which is an HL bike) as well, are known to be very stiff laterally. So it's not just the pivot as aforementioned but a combination of things.

  6. #6
    The Bubble Wrap Hysteria
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    In terms of pure physics.
    What does this have to do with Physics.......it's engineering....big difference. I work with a Physics PhD and he could not design his way out of a wet paper bag........it's engineering.

    Engineering is the practical application of science and math to solve problems...hence rear end stiffness

  7. #7
    Shovel Ready
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    The 3 FS frames I have had list like this. I'm a big boy at 270lbs so I can feel some movement within a frame design.

    Ventana El Rey. Very stiff no noticeable horizontal flex.

    Turner RFX. Very stiff no noticeable horizontal flex.

    Intense 5.5. Wobbled all over the place even with the PUSH mono block.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  8. #8
    Founder: Dirty3hirties
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    What does this have to do with Physics.......it's engineering....big difference.
    uh.....ok. thanks for the english class. The explanation of how pivot placement affects stiffness was correct or did you want to critique that as well?

  9. #9
    T , V , & K Rider
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    No physics or engineering degree required to tell the difference.........all you have to do is ride one ! TIG.
    Last edited by TIGMAN; 11-28-2007 at 05:22 AM.

  10. #10
    The Bubble Wrap Hysteria
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    uh.....ok. thanks for the english class. The explanation of how pivot placement affects stiffness was correct or did you want to critique that as well?
    Not really, just trying to make the point that a lot people on this board tose words around without thinking about their actual meaning or definition. I just take my career seriously and like to correct mistakes and misleadings. I'm not an english teacher.....just harmless banter

  11. #11
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    I'm not sure how it happened! I rode the bikes and for some odd reason a couple felt great and one did not. I'm not the most advanced rider! So I'm sure I need a slide rule and super computer to be absolutely sure.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  12. #12
    change is good
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    Try a El Cap

    Quote Originally Posted by trb2929
    Ventana El Rey. Very stiff no noticeable horizontal flex.
    Broke out the El Cap today as a winter bike. I've gushed before over it's stiffness, but compared to my El Rey it feels like a stiff hardtail. Freeky deeky. Also no wet weather bearing troubles.

    PS I love my El Rey too.

  13. #13
    Shovel Ready
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    Almost got the El Capitan. My personal taste just does not like the X brace look. Main reason I went with the RFX over the X5.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
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    My El Rey was the first Ventana I've ever ridden. It is noticeably stiffer than my previous FS bikes. Some more noticeably than others, but noticeable non the less.

    SC Superlite
    SC Blur
    Turner 5 Spot
    Lenz Leviathan.

  15. #15
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    I've gone from riding a Dos Niner for the last 2 years to the El Ray. One might imagin SOME sensation of wiggle, ghost shifting, or squirm through shallow ruts...NUTHIN'! I am VERY picky about lateral rigidity and this bike has plenty of it. I got mine a week ago and have been unsure if it was the right move. I have been able to really twist the throttle the last two rides and can say that the bike shines brighter the harder it's pushed.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by coach#1
    I read the article on the ventana website regarding their F.S. design criteria and I noticed that the big plus for the Ventana suspension is the lateral stiffness as compared to a Horst Link suspension. Granted, I haven't flexed them side by side and I'm not saying that the Ventana isn't laterally stiffer. But when I look at the two suspension designs there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference that would affect lateral stiffness.

    Looking at the new Stumpjumper suspension as an example (FSR with rocker arms) it looks very similar to the Ventana, they both have; a main pivot; a pivot either above or below rear axle; a pivot at the rocker arm; and then the same type of rocker/shock assembly mounted to the frame. The only difference is that the FSR has the pivot on the chainstay wheras the Ventana has the pivot on the seatstay. Is this the difference that makes one design that much more laterally stiff than the other? Or does the quality of construction account for the difference?

    Cheers,

    -Coach
    Seems like you received a mixed bag of answers to your question. I believe that DDRAEWWG came closer than anyone else to explaining things. The best approach, however, would be for you to call Ventana and pose the question directly to Sherwood. I suspect that he would be more than happy to explain the thinking behind his design and why he feels that it is the best for lateral stiffness. He may not be able to speak with you right when you call (he does have a business to run), but I'll bet that you will get an answer within a short time.

  17. #17
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    Kinematically, with a HL design you have an extra pivot point between the rear axle and the main frame. So there will be a loss of stiffness (but not necessarily a major loss) and wear in these pivots will only make it worse. Sherwood puts stiffness high up on his list of design priorities, so the whole suspension is designed with maximum stiffness in mind. Remember that stiffness comes from both kinematic design, individual component design, choice of materials and build quality. Sherwood does a great job in all these areas and the end result is structurally very stiff for its weight.
    [SIZE="2"]Remember, there is no black magic or witchcraft, it's only a machine[/SIZE]

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