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  1. #1
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    VENTANA 4 bar linkage

    I just compared my new Moots Cinco w Ventana rear end and the pivots of the rear suspension looks very similar to my Specialized Epic with one exception.. the pivot near the rear dropout is in a different location.. Can I assume this allows Ventana to avoid paying Specialized the FSR horst link patent fee??

    Thanks
    WHS

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by schneidw
    Can I assume this allows Ventana to avoid paying Specialized the FSR horst link patent fee??

    Thanks
    WHS
    First you must assume that Ventana would want to employ a Horst link suspension...

    Yes, the HL is defined by the placement of the chainstay pivot within some 15mm or something of the dropout as it is located within some range of degrees...or something. So, I suppose "Yes" is the answer to your question, just like they avoid paying SC a fee for VPP by not using a VPP design.
    Last edited by CharacterZero; 06-22-2009 at 12:44 PM.

  3. #3
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    I think the pivot location has more to do with chassis stiffness than patent infringement...

  4. #4
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    Ventana has used this location for close to 15 years, even when they could have used the classic HL location. He has his reasons.

  5. #5
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    Ventana 4 bar linkage

    I am still dialing in the Cinco and one thing I am noticing is the high degree of chain tension when climbing steep hills... Is this a common 'ailment' with the Ventana suspension? I am going to try and 'calibrate' the air pressure in the RP23 shock as a way to counteract this effect... just curious what other Ventana owners are doing or even if they notice this effect...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by schneidw
    I am still dialing in the Cinco and one thing I am noticing is the high degree of chain tension when climbing steep hills... Is this a common 'ailment' with the Ventana suspension? I am going to try and 'calibrate' the air pressure in the RP23 shock as a way to counteract this effect... just curious what other Ventana owners are doing or even if they notice this effect...
    Could you clarify further?

  7. #7
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    Sure.. as a neophyte.. I will simply state that I notice a signficant amount of chain tension when climbing that I do NOT notice when riding my 4-bar horst linkage Specialized Epic.

    Please note.. I am not championing FSR.. I just am trying to develop a balance with the Ventana design of limiting pedal induced bob and chain tension when climbing.. seems to be the only thing I can do is add more air to the Pro Pedal shock RP23. I was also planning on calling PUSH Industries to get their take on the matter...

    Thanks for sharing your technical insights

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by schneidw
    Sure.. as a neophyte.. I will simply state that I notice a signficant amount of chain tension when climbing that I do NOT notice when riding my 4-bar horst linkage Specialized Epic.

    Please note.. I am not championing FSR.. I just am trying to develop a balance with the Ventana design of limiting pedal induced bob and chain tension when climbing.. seems to be the only thing I can do is add more air to the Pro Pedal shock RP23. I was also planning on calling PUSH Industries to get their take on the matter...

    Thanks for sharing your technical insights
    So what is the problem with chain tensioning? Are you saying that the rear is not as active as it could be due to tension keeping the suspension stiff? Or are you having some kind of shifting problems?

    I am no technical wizard, just trying to follow...

  9. #9
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    In short. Exactly! The chain tension seems to temporarily "lock-out" or more aptly described to limit the travel the suspension.. I do notice on occasion (rarely) that when the tension effect significantly occurs , it does lead to chain skipping off the cassette... I am not technical wrt suspension performanace... but it is a noticable effect...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by schneidw
    In short. Exactly! The chain tension seems to temporarily "lock-out" or more aptly described to limit the travel the suspension.. I do notice on occasion (rarely) that when the tension effect significantly occurs , it does lead to chain skipping off the cassette... I am not technical wrt suspension performanace... but it is a noticable effect...
    Are you noticing this in granny or middle-ring climbing?

    Chan skipping off the cassette is not a "tension" problem - especially if it is slow speed climbing (at least from my experience). It could be a chainline issue or an indexing setting issue, but if it is properly setup, you shouldn't see this.

  11. #11
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    Agreed. As I noted, I am working out the kinks on a new USed bike.. the chain slip is likely attributed to the new cables stretching.. As far as the main point, the chain tension.. I plan to add some air pressure in the RP23 and see if I can lessen the effect... THANKS

  12. #12
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    I don't particularly notice it but will pay closer attention. Mine 5" frame is very active no mater what as far as I can tell, in fact I use the lockout a lot as needed to prevent it.

    Perhaps it is something related to the chainstay in relation to the crank as placed by Moots including the location of their upper pivot on the frame. Interesting...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead
    I don't particularly notice it but will pay closer attention. Mine 5" frame is very active no mater what as far as I can tell, in fact I use the lockout a lot as needed to prevent it.

    Perhaps it is something related to the chainstay in relation to the crank as placed by Moots including the location of their upper pivot on the frame. Interesting...
    I agree with deisel - the Ventana rear end is really active in technical climbing. It is not designed to stiffen under load like a VPP does. As a matter of fact, I have seen complaints of the opposite - too much sagging when the bike points uphill and too active (?! no such thing).

    It could be a difference in the pivot point on the seat tube, but my (admittedly minimal) understanding of suspension and drivetrain interaction is that the location of the chainstay or seatstay pivot and that relation to the gear combination being used is what drives (heh) suspension reaction due to some vector vector, Victor.

  14. #14
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    Bike mag has a review on the Cinco in July. Here are a few of the notes:

    "Weighing in at a respectable 28 pounds with pedals, the Cinco is easy enough to pedal, but on plodding climbs or even rolling terrain, the bike squats lazily in its travel. Switching on the Fox RP23's Pro Pedal lever delivers a hit of that magical feel titanium hardtails are famous for, but it begs the question; Why not just ride a full ti hardtail?"

    "I noticed zero rear-end slop during the test, and although I found myself missing the economy of an active suspension on the climbs, I can rationalize the trade in traction for the added stiffness and simplicity-something lacking in a complex multi-link design like a DW-Link or VPP".

    "It may be a bastard child, but the Cinco inherited the best qualities from its parents, and it will likely deliver a lifetime of faithful companionship".


    What ever that means. Kind of back and forth review. Interesting though that my EC weighs in at 28lbs too. That must be some heavy ti?
    "Set the gearshift for the high gear of your soul".

  15. #15
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    Pivot Location

    Its also worth noting that the Cinco rocker pivot sits behind the seat tube and uses a different rocker profile - from what i have read faux bar suspension action is very sensitive to the pivot location and height and i assume that rocker shape would also influence the action

    Just because the cinco uses the ventana rear end, you can't just expect it to ride like a Ventana - i'm not saying it can't or won't - it just can't be automatically expected

  16. #16
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    HL vs Faux bar

    over the course of 11 years, I went from a C'dale Super V (single pivot) to Intense Tracer (FSR/Horst Link) to an Epic (FSR/Horst Link) to a Ventana El Rey (called a faux bar, but essentially a single pivot). Going from the Super V to a HL bike was a revelation...amazing efficiency, less bob.

    When I made the switch to 29'ers a few years ago, there wasn't an FSR bike from Specialized yet, and the other options (e.g. Intense Spider, Fisher) didn't have the geometry I was looking for. So, I went for an El Rey.

    Initially, i missed the FSR system. The OP, Bike Mag, and others on this thread are right that the suspension does squat more, especially with ProPedal off, making you feel like you're being held back (slowed down/extra effort) on steep climbs. But I tell you what, I clean WAY more climbs on the El Rey than on any of my prior bikes. Some climbs I repeatedly failed at with my prior bikes I made with no problem on the El Rey. I don't know if it's the 29'er tires, or the added benefit of the RP23 platform, but this bike CAN climb. Since I'm a slow, but technical, rider...the bike suits me just fine. I can climb pretty much anything, I just have to do it at my pace.

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