Thanks to a local engineer to helped my find the linkage program - here are a few anti squat profiles showing how ventana's stack up compared to a DW link and GT Idrive. These are just a few examples for refernce purposes only.
There's any number of reasons why terromoto riders haven't voiced concerns as much - including coincidence.ronny said:Read em all and you seem to be the loudest voice on each thread. I know what you are getting at and you actually come across quite logically in most of the threads. Ventana bikes are single pivot and the pivot placement is pretty much the same on all the bikes except the dh model. I know that Ventana is going to bob a little more than most brands with a higher pivot placement or different suspension design. With that said, the vast majority of Ventana riders are happy with their rides. As said previously, the whole is the sum of the parts. Always a compromise.
One thing I am wondering is there is rarely any complaints about the Terremoto with excessive bob or squat. The pivot placement seems pretty low. I wonder if there is less complaints because Terremoto riders are using coil shocks or what? Does the extra travel mask the problem or would the bike not wallow in it's travel even more? Moto users please chime in. IheartVentana, what are your thoughts?
I've been avoiding this thread cause it looked like math was involved. . .iheartbicycles said:A few points of clarification.
The numbers posted are all derived from a gear ratio of 32/30 - which I picked just cause it's a common climbing gear - but antisquat curves change based on gearing - so each bike will differ a bit based on this.
Generally speaking, the lower the gear in the front - the more anti squat and the smaller (higher) the gear in the back, also the more antisquat. The converse holds true as well.
Also - the anti squat posted for each bike is at top out - assuming sag of 20mm or so, each bike will behave a little differently. I haven't checked each - but of the ones I have (dw and ventana) antisquat decreases during suspension compression.
bring your lights!Stripes said:Forget it. I'd rather go ride my bike than reply.
that's a strange gear combo. I did most of my calculations at 32 front 30 rear. This gives a good feel for what's going on when you're climbing.You can see the profiles of at least a few Ventana frames at Linkage Design
Here's one of the new vs old Ciclón:
View attachment 829435
the Linkage program defaults to really weird gear combos. You have to choose the gearing you're looking for. And i agree - we're interested in climbing gears, not downhill gears.Thanks man!
So, I assume that (32/15), is the gear combo for that anti-squat curve, which he seems to use as a standard for comparison. Wouldn't it be better to use a small ring gear combo (22/28 for example) since you would be most interested in anti squat during steep climbing?
Now that I think about it, how much meaning does a graph like that even have?
If you are comparing 2 different bikes, all you are really looking at is the amount of anti-squat in that gear combo, which might not be representative of any other gear combo, or is it?
It is interesting that the A-S curves are completely different in the 3 chain rings in this example. In the large ring, A-S increases dramatically as you move to larger cogs. In the middle ring, A-S increases more gradually moving into larger cogs. In the small ring, A-S decreases as you increase the cog size.You're right, but the site has lots more info on lots of bikes, including Alpino, Zeus, and El Cap. Here's another image for the "new" Ciclón:
View attachment 829479
That is actually strange as generally, most SP bikes are designed to pedal better (more anti-squat) in smaller chain ring combo's than in larger. And honestly, 2 teeth is not alot. If I were to guess, and don't take this personally, it could be a sign of a poor pedal stroke. By spinning a little faster, in too small of a chain-combo, you are activating the suspension by weight shifts.While I don't expect to understand the numbers, I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in the pedal bob from going to a 1x from a 30T to a 28T. The 28T was so horrible that it lasted one ride before I switched back to a 30T (2012 Ciclon). My rear cassette was a 11-36, but even so, it's not clear to me why the feel would be so different between losing those two teeth.
Could you expect in layman's terms why that would be the case?