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  1. #26
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    I think some people just beat on this issue way too much. I thought my El Ciclon climbed great. I used PP sometimes, lowered the fork sometimes for long climbs and had to be cognizant of my position on the bike when cleaning really steep stuff - but it's natural and part of the riding style. It wasn't an inconvenience. I thought the bike accellerated great - i like the way it squats into the travel when you get on it and hammer out of the saddle or brake into corners. I got full travel on pretty much every ride. Sure it can bob but that's why you learn to pedal smooth circles. My DW does a lot of things I like too and some things that I don't. There's give and take with every design. Ventana shouldn't change anything.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    I thought the bike accellerated great - i like the way it squats into the travel when you get on it and hammer out of the saddle or brake into corners. I got full travel on pretty much every ride. Sure it can bob but that's why you learn to pedal smooth circles. My DW does a lot of things I like too and some things that I don't. There's give and take with every design. Ventana shouldn't change anything.
    Most peope do not like their bikes to bob and squat a whole lot. This is why every suspension bike company focuses so much on the issue - and it's why the subject is raised so often on the forums.

    Pedalling circles will in no way mitigate squat. Squat is a funciton of inertia - which you can't overcome without breaking a few laws of physics.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    Pedalling circles will in no way mitigate squat.
    You're right, rider position on the bike can mitigate squat.

    The good news is nobody is forcing you to ride a Ventana. So, why waste so much energy on the subject.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    You're right, your position on the bike can mitigate squat.

    The good news is nobody is forcing you to ride a Ventana. So, why waste so much energy on the subject.
    Please tell me how your position on a bike lessens your inertia?

    The only way I know of to lessen inertia is to either accelerate slower or carry less mass.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    Please tell me how your position on a bike lessens your inertia?

    The only way I know of to lessen inertia is to either accelerate slower or carry less mass.
    Iím not a physicist or engineer nor do I pretend to be one on MTBR.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    The good news is nobody is forcing you to ride a Ventana. So, why waste so much energy on the subject.
    WORD!

    In the near future I plan to buy the linkage program.....certainly it is worth $199.00. It's cool that it allows the user to pull shared designs from the net but those designs need to be validated before publishing any results. garbage-in = garbage out

  7. #32
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    Most people?

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  8. #33
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    All your explanations to each of my concerns does not explain why you are looking particularly at Ventana anti-squat profiles. This especially doesn't clarify things:

    With the Ventana's at 30% sag their antisquat decreases from an already low 45% to an even lower 37%.
    You said Ventana has lots of squat, but here you're saying it doesn't. Which is it?

    What I would be curious to is what Sherwood has to say about all your armchair engineering. While I'm sure you're doing this because you like to, it's hard for me to discern what you're trying to accomplish by this.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes
    All your explanations to each of my concerns does not explain why you are looking particularly at Ventana anti-squat profiles. .
    It's exactly what I said: a follow up to several other threads.

    :
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes

    You said Ventana has lots of squat, but here you're saying it doesn't. Which is it?.
    You're misunderstanding squat and antisquat. In the case of antisquat - a lower number (under 100%) is bad.

    Listen, Ann. I know you don't know me from Adam - so calling in Sherwood and chattering about "armchair engineering" just makes it apparent that you're swinging at windmills. I'm arguing basic physics. It's obvious the Ventana board is not used to this.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    It's exactly what I said: a follow up to several other threads.

    You're misunderstanding squat and antisquat. In the case of antisquat - a lower number (under 100%) is bad.

    Listen, Ann. I know you don't know me from Adam - so calling in Sherwood and chattering about "armchair engineering" just makes it apparent that you're swinging at windmills. I'm arguing basic physics. It's obvious the Ventana board is not used to this.
    It's Anne. If you're going to talk down to me, learn to spell my name first. And, an explanation in non-basic physics and why you were so trying to argue this was all I was asking. No harm met, but apparently, you just want to pick a fight with everyone here.

    You don't know me from Eve, but if you're pushing a physics argument on why Ventanas are so bad, I'd like to hear from Sherwood, or any other full time bike designer. Since Sherwood designs the Ventanas, I think that's a very reasonable request.

    I'm trying to understanding why you're doing this on the Ventana forum, rather than going and whining on the NorCal forum like everyone else does there. People here tend to make sense to the non-engineering and engineering types who just want to ride their bikes and have fun.

    If you heart bikes so much, you should go out and ride instead of picking fights on a forum just because you're bored. The rest of us here (the Ventana forum) like posting why we like riding our bikes, not nitpicking what their imperfections are.

    I'm done wasting my time with this. I can go ask enough people about squat and anti-squat if I want, instead of having it shoved down my throat.
    Last edited by Stripes; 09-19-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes
    It's Anne. If you're going to talk down to me, learn to spell my name first. You don't know me from Eve, but if you're pushing a physics argument on why Ventanas are so bad, I'd like to hear from Sherwood, or any other full time bike designer. Since Sherwood designs the Ventanas, I think that's a very reasonable request.

    I'm trying to understanding why you're doing this on the Ventana forum, rather than going and whining on the NorCal forum like everyone else does there. People here tend to make sense to the non-engineering and engineering types who just want to ride their bikes and have fun.

    If you heart bikes so much, you should go out and ride instead of picking fights on a forum just because you're bored. The rest of us here (the Ventana forum) like posting why we like riding our bikes, not nitpicking what their imperfections are.
    I am sorry if you don't yet understand the physics behind suspension design. You're not alone, in the Ventana forum.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    I am sorry if you don't yet understand the physics behind suspension design. You're not alone, in the Ventana forum.
    Chuck,

    I think it's safe to say that 90% of the people here have no idea what the hell you are saying. I sure don't.

    You are coming across as a cocky ass and you quite frankly aren't making your point a bit by being condescending to people.

    I'm just sayin'...

    Anyhow... I'm so fat and slow right now I'm barely qualified to lurk here. Back to lurking for me !!!

  13. #38
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    More to it than a graph

    Sometimes people can understand that there is more to a bike than the sum of it's parts and what it looks like on a graph.

    I'm sure I could come up with some other graph that shows you going forward more efficiently without the rear wheel wagging behind you like a dog in anything remotely off camber or technical. But I won't waist my time trying to convince anyone of it. Just ride the bikes and draw your own conclusions on whether it fits what you're looking for or not.

    I for one was sold, and am repeatedly sold over and over, on the overall frame stiffness of the Ventana's. The fact that they give up a little pedal efficiency over some other designs is not new.
    But I tell you, NOTHING I have ridden yet in 20+ years has delivered a bike that handles the rough stuff like the Ventana's do. I went through countless bikes just merely riding along dealing with the wiggly back ends in the rough stuff, thinking that's how all bikes were. But the first time in Tahoe on a demo Ventana years and years ago, I was hooked. I could take different lines, carve turns, accelerate(what? Accelerate? on an bike wiht such a low anti squat number on the graph? I must be crazy you say!.) out of turns with much more confidence.

    Now granted, I'm a big guy, 6'2" 240lbs, but I get this butt moving and I expect a quality bike frame that's retailing at $2200 plus, to do what I want it to. And you know what? Even with the new Turner, Ibis, Intense, SC variations of the beloved VPP and DW-link stuff, non can hold a candle to the rear end stiffness, and great front end layout, of the Ventana.

    Like I said, go ride `em. I encourage all my customers to go ride the different bikes and figure out what they're looking for and what works best for them.

    Remember, if we listened to Specialized, we'd all be using their dumb flexy FSR design because that was touted year after year as the most efficient way of getting power out fo the cranks to the rear wheel.

    For ME, the bike has got to hold it's line and go where I want it, not worrying about what some graph says.

    Can't wait for tomorrow....getting out and riding my oh so inefficient bicycle...probably have a smile on my face the entire time. It's RIDE TIME!
    Then it's a week of sin in SinCity. Booyaah!
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Even with the new Turner, Ibis, Intense, SC variations of the beloved VPP and DW-link stuff, non can hold a candle to the rear end stiffness, and great front end layout, of the Ventana.
    I have to disagree. The new DW Turner has an incredibly stiff rear end! I actually hold off camber lines through rough better than I did on the El Ciclon. The bike is an insane cornerer too. The slightly lower BB on the Spot helps a little as well. But I have to say the Spot is very stiff latterally, very stiff. The only difference I feel is that maybe the front triangle is not quite as burly as the Ciclons.

    On another note, I'm beat! Just did an 8 hr two man relay in Hurkey Creek today. We did 8 laps, 4 each and finished 4th out of 41 8 hr teams - 2 min off the podium. The 8 hr two man is tough and my first 2 laps were at 90*. I can pretty much guarantee the team 2 min ahead of us weren't riding 29lb trail bikes... I imagine carbon hardtails.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    I have to disagree. The new DW Turner has an incredibly stiff rear end! I actually hold off camber lines through rough better than I did on the El Ciclon. The bike is an insane cornerer too. The slightly lower BB on the Spot helps a little as well. But I have to say the Spot is very stiff latterally, very stiff. The only difference I feel is that maybe the front triangle is not quite as burly as the Ciclons.

    On another note, I'm beat! Just did an 8 hr two man relay in Hurkey Creek today. We did 8 laps, 4 each and finished 4th out of 41 8 hr teams - 2 min off the podium. The 8 hr two man is tough and my first 2 laps were at 90*. I can pretty much guarantee the team 2 min ahead of us weren't riding 29lb trail bikes... I imagine carbon hardtails.

    I've heard others say that about the new DW turners too...but that's not what I felt. Maybe it was the wheel choice on the bike....

    WHAT?You actually RODE you're bike? Whoa there man. These things are meant to be looked at and discussed on the intrawebs....not ridden. For shame!
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  16. #41
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    Empirically Speaking

    On the El Capitan, smoother pedaling visibly reduces rocker arm movement. And don't take my word for it, try that yourself.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    I am sorry if you don't yet understand the physics behind suspension design. You're not alone, in the Ventana forum.
    So far all you have showed us is that you can plug some numbers in a program that is excepted by the "community" and bash users. You have yet to show us that you have an expert knowledge or even a working knowledge of kinematic analysis. Yet you have shown us to have expert knowledge in being a jerk and a DH.

  18. #43
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    I sure think this one is cool. Just sayn'.
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    Stuff

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    So far all you have showed us is that you can plug some numbers in a program that is excepted by the "community" and bash users. You have yet to show us that you have an expert knowledge or even a working knowledge of kinematic analysis. Yet you have shown us to have expert knowledge in being a jerk and a DH.
    It's fun to see you all stick together and pat each other on the back. Meanwhile thread after thread after thread keeps popping up with riders asking why their ventana's squat and bob so much.

    El Salt Set-Up??? Horrible bob on steeps
    Moots-Ventana Suspension (Can PUSH save it?)
    Long travel and efficiency?
    How necessary is the platform on your Ventana?

    The usual answer from the forum is the same - use lots of propedal or push the shock. Which, in a way will reduce squat - but only by deadening the suspension.

    Many of you give answers completely off base. One user suggested running a smaller air chamber - ( I think this was internal14) if you actually thought about spring curves, you know this would only make the problem worse.

    Many users have blamed set back seat posts (I think this was lnc nuvue) - and even stated specifically that set back posts "negate antisquat." If you know anything about physics, it doesn't matter your position on the bike - it matters your mass and acceleration to determine levels of squat and antisquat.

    Users blame the fit of the bike in atleast 2 threads.

    Users blame the riders pedalling in several threads.

    I brought up pivot placement and correctly pointed out that ventana's have the lowest antisquat profile of any bike I've ever ridden. This is the core issue and is the reason why it keeps coming up.

    In each thread I post this, I get attacked.(ironically you guys claim that I make it personal - but I think all these threads show the opposite)

    In previous threads I did not have the data to back up my ideas - so this thread provides it.

    In the last thread I said that even faced with empirical data, the ventana forum would continue to keep its head in the sand - and you all are performing wonderfully in this regard. I expected as much.

    So now rather than analyzing the info provided, you attack me, you claim I don't know squat about squat, you suggest that offering up information that already existed is somehow lessons the truth of the matter.


    The truth of the matter is in the numbers - it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of me.

    I don't expect to change your minds - I do expect the other members who read this site, will find this info beneficial. In fact I know this to be the case based on the many people who have come to me direct to have offline conversations.
    Last edited by iheartbicycles; 09-20-2009 at 09:51 AM.
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  20. #45
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    Great, another nerd-bike-stalker. Where's Gayem?

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky J
    The rider's input to suspension performance cannot be measured by these plots- how he or she shifts body position and weight to get optimal performance. The best riders do not sit on their bikes like lifeless sacks of potatoes, they're dynamic and much less affected by these so-called theoretical limitations. The difference between the suspension system deemed "best" (whatever that is) and "worst" (ditto) is far less than the gulf separating a highly skilled pilot and even an average jockey.
    +1 - read this again if you don't get it people. Moving my 165 lbs around a few inches effects the system a whole lot more than any frame design can.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    In each thread I post this, I get attacked.(ironically you guys claim that I make it personal - but I think all these threads show the opposite)

    In previous threads I did not have the data to back up my ideas - so this thread provides it.

    In the last thread I said that even faced with empirical data, the ventana forum would continue to keep its head in the sand - and you all are performing wonderfully in this regard. I expected as much.

    So now rather than analyzing the info provided, you attack me, you claim I don't know squat about squat, you suggest that offering up information that already existed is somehow lessons the truth of the matter.


    The truth of the matter is in the numbers - it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of me.

    I don't expect to change your minds - I do expect the other members who read this site, will find this info beneficial. In fact I know this to be the case based on the many people who have come to me direct to have offline conversations.

    You have yet to show us that you have an expert knowledge or even a working knowledge of kinematic analysis. I want to see your hand calculations! Not results some from an obscure linkage software that has a few qoutes on its website from some "so called experts" here on mtbr.com. How about use a mainstream engineering software package like MathCAD, Mathematica, Matlab, or anyother MCAD software that has motion anaylsis.

    You will change my mind if you follow up with hand calculations and analysis from a creditable engineering analysis software package. But for now I will continue to ride my Ventana and work with any short comings it may have. I'm sure you will continue what you're doing........

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    You have yet to show us that you have an expert knowledge or even a working knowledge of kinematic analysis. I want to see your hand calculations! Not results some from an obscure linkage software that has a few qoutes on its website from some "so called experts" here on mtbr.com. How about use a mainstream engineering software package like MathCAD, Mathematica, Matlab, or anyother MCAD software that has motion anaylsis.

    You will change my mind if you follow up with hand calculations and analysis from a creditable engineering analysis software package. But for now I will continue to ride my Ventana and work with any short comings it may have. I'm sure you will continue what you're doing........
    Do you require this of all posters on mtbr or just the ones who don't agree with you?

    Do what you will with the information and analysis I provided.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    Do you require this of all posters on mtbr or just the ones who don't agree with you?

    Do what you will with the information and analysis I provided.
    First, I havenít disagreed with you. Iím interested in your claims and the linkage software results but can no way say theyíre the absolute truth and 100% correct. There is some amount of error in those resultsÖ..what percentage I do not know. To validate your claims as with any good engineering analysis, publish the setup data and do some hand calculations or run those setups a mainstream analysis package. Then you can say with a good degree of certainty those results represent the performance of each frames linkage. But until you do that itís just a subjective opinion with pretty pictures from some obscure linkage software program.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    First, I haven’t disagreed with you. I’m interested in your claims and the linkage software results but can no way say they’re the absolute truth and 100% correct. There is some amount of error in those results…..what percentage I do not know. To validate your claims as with any good engineering analysis, publish the setup data and do some hand calculations or run those setups a mainstream analysis package. Then you can say with a good degree of certainty those results represent the performance of each frames linkage. But until you do that it’s just a subjective opinion with pretty pictures from some obscure linkage software program.
    This would be fun to do - but honestly it's getting tiresome. Like you, I am always skeptical and I think this would be a good exercise. It's not going to happen today, though.

    BTW - do you know what software sherwood used to design the suspension of the ventana?

    When I worked in the industry only about 1/2 the company's used any software, relying on physical models instead. I've worked with many an engineer that weren't degree'd.Charlie Cunningham, Steve Potts, Mark Slate, Erik Koski, etc. Have spent a good amount of time talking with Brent Foes as well.

    None of these guys use FEA. They just break ****. Then before they put it into production, they make it stronger.

    I can't tell you who - but a very prominent bike company actually builds its suspension models starting with cardboard cut outs! These guys just have mechanical instincts and don't rely on computer models. I don't think that in any way discounts their capabilities.

    Would you require of them a CAD/CAM drawing with kinematic analysis?

    Software is only a tool used to speed up the process - it is not a process in and of itself.
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