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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I wouldn't consider the changes "simple", most sound significant to me.

    Here is the list...
    Is there any item on the list you can not get a very clear idea what exactly it will do and how it will perform?

    We do not know what he will do to the geometry, but it is hard to fathom that it would be unridable.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Is there any item on the list you can not get a very clear idea what exactly it will do and how it will perform?

    We do not know what he will do to the geometry, but it is hard to fathom that it would be unridable.
    I'm pretty sure we can count on the folks at Ventana to make something that is going to work, and probably work pretty well, but I personally would not run out and purchase before for the numbers have been released. Most of the stuff on the "To do list" are nonissues if you wanted to jump onto the bandwagon, but the longer top tube would stop me until Ventana decides to let us all in on the secret.

    Plus, my wife always makes to do lists for me and I rarely get them completed.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  3. #153
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    For some, the longer TT would be a blessing. I had to get a 21" frame to get a TT I wanted 24.8". It cost me an extra 1.25 lbs of frame weight, since that is how overbuilt the frames are. If I could get a "Large" frame with a 24.5" TT, I would have saved the extra weight. I will say, I don't have the money or balls to order on blind faith, but I look forward to hearing from those that did!
    "No good deed goes unpunished"

  4. #154
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    Also in the "to do" list is slacker seat angles, which to some extent will cancel out the effect of the longer top tubes...

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Also in the "to do" list is slacker seat angles, which to some extent will cancel out the effect of the longer top tubes...
    I'm interested to see how SG pulls off a slacker seat tube angle with a lower bb and shorter chainstays.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Also in the "to do" list is slacker seat angles, which to some extent will cancel out the effect of the longer top tubes...
    Slacker seat tube yields a longer effective TT for the same reach and stack, so if you consider reach to be the most important fit parameter being left unchanged for a given size, then slacker seat tube could be responsible for the longer ETT.

    I thought the tendency in many recent frames was for steeper seat tube, slacker front tube.. which I like..

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe

    I thought the tendency in many recent frames was for steeper seat tube, slacker front tube.. which I like..
    Same here. Custom geo on an EC yielded a 24" TT with a 66* HTA and 74* STA. Perfect for someone built like me. Long arms, long legs.

    Drawback: The bike is long, but stable.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Is there any item on the list you can not get a very clear idea what exactly it will do and how it will perform?.

    please tell me "exactly" what the optimized pivot position will do/ change in direct comparison to the current position
    breezy shade

  9. #159
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge
    please tell me "exactly" what the optimized pivot position will do/ change in direct comparison to the current position
    It will cause an almost imperceptible improvement in ride which will mostly remain the same as we know and love. Bank on it. For the range of possible difference one can ride multiple modern low single pivot bikes. Yeah, they are a bit different.

    I think the exact angles values are a bit more interesting.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    I'm interested to see how SG pulls off a slacker seat tube angle with a lower bb and shorter chainstays.
    Higher main pivot means the wheel isn't coming forward as much as on the old bikes and clears up room for shorter chain stays and/or slacker seat tubes.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovin
    Same here. Custom geo on an EC yielded a 24" TT with a 66* HTA and 74* STA. Perfect for someone built like me. Long arms, long legs.

    Drawback: The bike is long, but stable.
    Those are the same numbers for the EC I ordered last year, except for the HTA which is 68* I went with a low 13.1 BB and love how the bike carves.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Slacker seat tube yields a longer effective TT for the same reach and stack, so if you consider reach to be the most important fit parameter being left unchanged for a given size, then slacker seat tube could be responsible for the longer ETT.

    I thought the tendency in many recent frames was for steeper seat tube, slacker front tube.. which I like..
    We may be looking at it from different, well, angles. A bike with a 23" top tube and 72º seat tube is shorter than a bike with a 23" top tube and a 74º seat tube. Once the saddle is set in the preferred position in relation to the bottom bracket, the latter of the two frames will have longer reach and wheelbase.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    We may be looking at it from different, well, angles. A bike with a 23" top tube and 72º seat tube is shorter than a bike with a 23" top tube and a 74º seat tube. Once the saddle is set in the preferred position in relation to the bottom bracket, the latter of the two frames will have longer reach and wheelbase.
    Axe is right.

    Slacker seat-tube => seat is tilted more backwards => longer ETT

    So a 72 degree seat tube will give a longer ETT than 74 degrees.

    (..and the wheelbase isn't affected by this at all)

  14. #164
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    seatube angles

    maybe this will help.

    seatube angles listed in the geometry page start from horizontal being zero, not vertical being zero.

    so, the larger the number, the closer to vertical & moving closer to the headtube shortening ETT.

    i think
    breezy shade

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Axe is right.

    Slacker seat-tube => seat is tilted more backwards => longer ETT

    So a 72 degree seat tube will give a longer ETT than 74 degrees.

    (..and the wheelbase isn't affected by this at all)
    Be sure you've read my post. What I've said is that if you keep the ETT the same, then the bike with the steeper seat tube has a longer wheelbase and reach. This is why bikes with steep seat tube angles tend to fit bigger than the top tube length would suggest, and is a big part of the reason the "reach" measuremet was devised.

    This has long been a problem, for example, with very small bike frames. Many frame builders will build an XS frame with a relatively short top tube, but then spec something like a 75º seat tube angle. Well, by the time the rider has positioned the saddle properly in relation to the bb (sliding the saddle far back in the seatpost clamp), the rider's stretch to the handlebar is uncomfortably long. Had the bike been spec'd with the same ETT and a 73º seat tube angle, the saddle wouldn't have to be moved back so far to get the right position over the bb, and the distance to the handlebar (and wheelbase) would be effectively shorter.

    So. If Ventana is lengthening effective top tubes slightly, and slackening seat tubes slighty, the changes may cancel each other out fit-wise.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Be sure you've read my post.
    Maybe you should read your own post again?

    If you had included the word "effective" before the two words "top tube", I would have agreed 100%.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Be sure you've read my post. What I've said is that if you keep the ETT the same, then the bike with the steeper seat tube has a longer wheelbase and reach. This is why bikes with steep seat tube angles tend to fit bigger than the top tube length would suggest, and is a big part of the reason the "reach" measuremet was devised.

    So. If Ventana is lengthening effective top tubes slightly, and slackening seat tubes slighty, the changes may cancel each other out fit-wise.
    We are speculating on what would be the invariant for an individual size.

    I believe that manufacturers should slot the standard sizes by reach, as it is the most consistent measure for estimating a proper fit. Say, 400mm for size Medium, and one inch up or down for each size.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    We are speculating on what would be the invariant for an individual size.

    I believe that manufacturers should slot the standard sizes by reach, as it is the most consistent measure for estimating a proper fit. Say, 400mm for size Medium, and one inch up or down for each size.
    Agreed, we are. Also, and for much the same reason, I agree that "reach" would give a much better guide to fit. Only problem is that now I have to figure out what my ideal reach would be to buy a frame.

  19. #169
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    I have a new 2011 Big Brand bike that i'm perfectly happy with....but i find myself checking this thread every day and resisting the urge to call Ventana and beg for more info!!!

    You see, i've had a Ventana before but it wasn't SUPERDUST!!!
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  20. #170
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    Ha ha. I'm in exactly the same spot. Only I've had both Grinch Green and Superdust.
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  21. #171
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    What do we gotta do for a sneak peek? Where're the teaser shots? For those who have ordered, what's the ship date?

  22. #172
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    Rumor I just heard - I was sworn to secrecy, but I just can't hold it in - is that on the new bikes, the both bottom bracket and the main pivot will be located in a rotatable, pinch-bolt secured housing, much like the EBBs used in some single speeds. The new design won't rotate actively with suspension movement, like GT I-drive, but rather will allow the user to tune the main pivot location, relative to the bb, to completely cancel drivetrain effects on suspension activity over a range of chain-ring and even wheel sizes.

    Want to run a Hammerschmidt? Set the pivot inline with the ring and you're perfect. You'll even get the choice of two positions: foreward of BB for short chainstays and aft for longer wheelbase & high speed stability. Want to run just a 36T ring on a 1x10? You can do that too, just by rotating the assembly. It sounds pretty slick, I think.

    I haven't heard the name of this new design. I guess it's held up by patent issues, but stay tuned. It's going to be cool!
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  23. #173
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    That sounds interesting. When I was in the gondola at Mammoth discussing the new changes for 2011 with Sherwood, he mentioned a new main pivot location, but not something adjustable. This should be pretty cool.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  24. #174
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    wow!

    looks i'll be taking advantage of the trade-in value on my less than yearold Terremoto. love that frame but i gotta believe the next generation Ventana's are going totally must have.
    breezy shade

  25. #175
    JmZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    Rumor I just heard - I was sworn to secrecy, but I just can't hold it in - is that on the new bikes...
    I'm hoping that this isn't just about a week too early. April 1 is just around the corner.

    Sounds very cool if implemented right. And Ventana is one that could implement it right.

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  26. #176
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    If you Guys and Gals are looking for a good price on an old Ventana frame to go towards a new one you might want to check out the classified ads or ebay. Look for the Marble Peak frame.....you could save some serious coin once these beauties are unveiled!

  27. #177
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    Wow that's incredibly cool if it's true.

    Teresa told me 2 days ago that they are just about ready to show geometry for a 4 and 5" bike, no 6" bike yet. I don't believe the geo drawing will show the actual frame though, so don't get too excited. This new pivot mounting system would make sense- they want to show geo but not the new frame yet even though they're making parts allready!!!
    Maybe they are indeed waiting for a patent, or are fine tuning some crazy cool stuff that's new to the industry.

    It's funny- i'll get chastized by Turner Homers, Giant guys and suspension nerds in general if i go to a Ventana...i love my Maestro bike, it is simply excellent in terms of pedaling effiency. But i gotta say, now that i use 2 x 10 with a 26t granny, a single pivot that is up higher than previous Ventanas, so that it can have a bit of rearward axle path for at least 1/3 of the travel (at sag point), would work great and i could get the ultra solid frame design and big bearings that Ventana is famous for.

    Back just a short year ago when nearly everyone was using a 22t or maybe a 24t granny the pivot location was a major compromise. A low pivot would feel good while climbing up stair step rocks but feel mushy while motoring up smoother climbs forcing stiffer shock tunes. Higher pivots would result in unwanted chain tourque and yucky pedal feedback. 10 speed has been a huge help in this!!!! Pie plate 36t cassettes are god sent!

    VPP, DW, Mestro etc still have their benifits but well built, super solid and reliable advanced single pivot- with linkage designs will have more relavence again. They still rule DH and now can get a bigger piece of the trail bike pie.

    Sherwood pops a big one by releasing an adjustable pivot. Old school Ventana lovers, big bike riders and heavier fellas can keep their 22 and 24t rings and adjust the frame accordingly, and go fast-big hit- people like me can raise the pivot a bit to help the bike ride well at speed and help the bike climb well all at the same time!!!

    Dang- i'm really getting excited about these bikes. Sign me up!

    Haha Scott@Go-Ride gave me an old Ventana T shirt yeaterday out of his wifes closet! He was joking around about how stoked i am on the prospect of being on a Ventana again. Good timing!
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  28. #178
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    Yep, the new frame is bad ass. I was fortunate to see the cad drawings of the near final design...just a few tweeks till production. I was half joking about taking a picture with my iPhone. Sherwood said go for it but then put a coffee cup over the main portion of the frame. Lots of cool detail and suprises going into the frames. Sorry Aaron....I got to see it before you! Haha. LOL!

  29. #179
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    Geebus, you guys are so gullible. Please note that MR. Icegeek is the same person who said that only the 20" frames were getting the new changes, becuase the 2011 on the "list" picture looks like 20".

    Optimized pivot location does NOT mean Adjustable Pivot Location.

    -A
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    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  30. #180
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    Yeah yeah new bike whatever....but can Sherwood make it STOP raining in NorCal??!! I mean really, talk about the need to step up here and make a change already. I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    www.velocitybicycles.comWhere customers become friends, not simply a dollar sign.

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    . I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    AMEN!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  32. #182
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    At 5'4" i'm pretty sure i could fit the new 20" frame with 31" wheels as long as i can tune my pivot location for 20/44 gearing on the 2012 prototype Facerace ti cranks with carbon rings.
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  33. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com
    At 5'4" i'm pretty sure i could fit the new 20" frame with 31" wheels as long as i can tune my pivot location for 20/44 gearing on the 2012 prototype Facerace ti cranks with carbon rings.
    Wasn't that Bender's bike in the original "Down" video?

    ...the rumor mill is certainly a buzz...

    did someone mention scandium?

  34. #184
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    I want one in turquoise...

  35. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Yeah yeah new bike whatever....but can Sherwood make it STOP raining in NorCal??!! I mean really, talk about the need to step up here and make a change already. I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    Myke, Looks like Sherwood has done his magic!
    <iframe class="IBATOM-synd-ifr" width="124" height="94" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" src="http://www.kcra.com/weather/18542754/media.html?qs=;a=t;displaymethod=embed;linktarget= newwindow;shortname=7 Day"> </iframe>

    Even if it's just on the Roadie V, I need to get some miles in!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  36. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    I haven't heard the name of this new design. I guess it's held up by patent issues, but stay tuned. It's going to be cool!
    I vote for the "Anti-Tension Kettenantrieb"..

  37. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Yeah yeah new bike whatever....but can Sherwood make it STOP raining in NorCal??!! I mean really, talk about the need to step up here and make a change already. I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    OH yeah! Does anyone got an APP to make this rain stop? My Padrino should be done next week! I need a better weather than this!!!

  38. #188
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    How much shorter are the chainstays on the 29ers?

  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles
    How much shorter are the chainstays on the 29ers?
    By about 4 inches then those on a 36er.

  40. #190
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    I am sick and tired of checking the Ventana website and not seeing any updates.

  41. #191
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    What I'm afraid of is that there is a mention to seat angles but not to head angles. And those slaker seat angles seem to me more a consequence of shorter chainstay.

  42. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killrop
    I am sick and tired of checking the Ventana website and not seeing any updates.
    Wow, that is harsh. Maybe a V is not for you?
    .
    "...when your ride is nearly over, it seems to have lasted but an instant..."


    Stuff

  43. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt
    Wow, that is harsh. Maybe a V is not for you?
    Why is that?

  44. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by toponoto
    What I'm afraid of is that there is a mention to seat angles but not to head angles. And those slaker seat angles seem to me more a consequence of shorter chainstay.
    Head angles are also being changed.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  45. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    Head angles are also being changed.
    Seams like a lot of fear is being generated by head angles and seat angles........unwarrented at this point. I am sure Ventana will be offering semi-custom for those that want a 72.25917 deg SA and a 68.251375 deg HA.

  46. #196
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    maybe I'm the only one...

    but I don't like the look of any of the change suggestions.. save the journal bearings.

    Plastic bottom brackets that slide in = lame
    Slack HA and SA = bad for steep climbing
    Tire clearance = I run schwalbe 2.35s just fine
    12mm thru = not needed/ already super stiff rear
    tapered head tube = looks stupid, not needed (maybe 29")

    I feel like Ventana might be listening a little too much to the bike geeks instead of keeping with the "KISS" principle which has built their reputation to what it is now.

  47. #197
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    Well, in my case it's more a matter of curiosity, I hope I'll stay with my old Ciclon & Bruja for a quite long (finger crossed).

  48. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    Plastic bottom brackets that slide in = lame
    Press fit bottom bracket - lighter, more robust, simpler, stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    Slack HA and SA = bad for steep climbing
    Stop living in the last century. Plenty of frames that had proven otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    Tire clearance = I run schwalbe 2.35s just fine
    Run 2.4 with room for mud.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    12mm thru = not needed/ already super stiff rear
    Or you can do same stiffness at lighter weight, with simple, strong and more robust industry standard interface.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    tapered head tube = looks stupid, not needed (maybe 29")
    Recalibrate your vision then. Best stiffness to weight ratio, more room to weld larger downtube, compatible with lighter, stronger forks, or use angle adjustable headset with a regular steerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    I feel like Ventana might be listening a little too much to the bike geeks instead of keeping with the "KISS" principle which has built their reputation to what it is now.
    Exactly the opposite. This list is all the good, simplified, updates, and none of the bad.

  49. #199
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    new geometry and other changes

    I can't wait to see the new changes on the future Ventana line and not just the FS frames but hopefully the HT frames as well ! I don't know why some peeps are afraid of change....at least wait and see or better yet demo when available before raising speculations on how it will perform or look ! TIG.
    " A way to a deep freedom " - Tarja

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    The new Ventana geo is posted on their website.

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