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  1. #101
    ventanakaz
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN
    I hope the new V's are at least as strong and beastieful as my dream girl ! TIG.
    ...hey man thats my girl how did you get her pic...
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I'd love to have something similar to Canfields Yelli Screamy. Spent the day riding one with Chris Canfield a couple months back, the bike rocks.

    I know I can get something like this custom from Ventana, I asked, just couldn't afford it.
    Good to know that Sherwood is willing to build something like that. I may need to talk to him about what sorta fiscal pain it would involve.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I'd love to have something similar to Canfields Yelli Screamy. Spent the day riding one with Chris Canfield a couple months back, the bike rocks.

    I know I can get something like this custom from Ventana, I asked, just couldn't afford it.
    ...i ran into chris on MLK jr. day. he was in my town, It was kinda funny i was riding my bike with a new shovel in hand going up to build when i saw this guy talking to this old guy on a bike as i rode by i noticed the young guy on the one bike looked up and it was chris. i didn't get to really ride the proto ONE because he didn't have much time but it sure looked like a nice bike and everyone that has a canfield seems to love them. i may have to jump ship over to canfield...
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TurnersNotEnough
    Good to know that Sherwood is willing to build something like that. I may need to talk to him about what sorta fiscal pain it would involve.
    ...another thing i forgot to say and one of the reasons why i called was to find out if they would build a La bruja with the new changes and i got a no because of cost and tooling to build one frame...
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...i was told yes on the terremoto. but i sure was hoping for the La bruja too because when it comes to ventana i always want the latest and greatest...

    thanks for the info on the Terremoto, i feel better already

    sorry 'bout the La Bruja
    breezy shade

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...another thing i forgot to say and one of the reasons why i called was to find out if they would build a La bruja with the new changes and i got a no because of cost and tooling to build one frame...
    I think it's funny that you equate, most travel to "latest and greatest". Bruja V2 was a fine machine, but I always felt that T-Moto was a superior weapon.Besides at 160mm of travel, are you really missing much by not having that extra 10mm? And it's not that much more to get a semi-custom to get the slacker head tube of the Bruja, and heck with the new 180 forks out there, you probably could go stock frame and get Bruja V2 angles. Considering the impending changes, (Slacker angles, lower BB) I bet the new T-Moto will blur the lines between OLD T-moto and Bruja V2 anyways.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    I think it's funny that you equate, most travel to "latest and greatest". Bruja V2 was a fine machine, but I always felt that T-Moto was a superior weapon.Besides at 160mm of travel, are you really missing much by not having that extra 10mm? And it's not that much more to get a semi-custom to get the slacker head tube of the Bruja, and heck with the new 180 forks out there, you probably could go stock frame and get Bruja V2 angles. Considering the impending changes, (Slacker angles, lower BB) I bet the new T-Moto will blur the lines between OLD T-moto and Bruja V2 anyways.
    ...thats not what i said, I don't equate latest and greatest to more travel. travel has nothing to do with it, i should have said or added to what i said was latest and greatest design. i like how sherwood always improves on his design for instance i cracked two different frames one from jumping it at where i live and the other at northstar. one cracked at the seat tube top tube junction. i noticed when i was at the shop picking up this frame there was one hanging up and had a big crack at ST/TT junction. he said the guy cracked it jumping. so i picked the frame up brought it home and built it up and guess what happened, Cracked it jumping two years later so he then added the gusset. i like how he improves on his frames. as for the 160 MM terremoto i had and loved it but i needed more for northstar cause i was riding harder and faster, So i got the 180 MM La bruja for like dogbone trail at northstar and i noticed the extra 20 MM of travel. more buttery...
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...i ran into chris on MLK jr. day. he was in my town, It was kinda funny i was riding my bike with a new shovel in hand going up to build when i saw this guy talking to this old guy on a bike as i rode by i noticed the young guy on the one bike looked up and it was chris. i didn't get to really ride the proto ONE because he didn't have much time but it sure looked like a nice bike and everyone that has a canfield seems to love them. i may have to jump ship over to canfield...
    seems like a ton of money for a bike made overseas....

    i can handle paying for the quality control that Ventana has.

    I could buy a bike made in china, but i would certainly expect it to be significantly cheaper, ie. banshee, etc...

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ... So i got the 180 MM La bruja for like dogbone trail at northstar and i noticed the extra 20 MM of travel. more buttery...
    I agree with 90% of what you said, evolving/improving frames etc...

    But for the record. La Bruja is not 180, it's actually 175mm, and T-Moto is 162mm. The Falling rate at the end stroke is what keeps you from getting the Full 178mm that the AVG. 2.8:1 rockers mathematically show you get. (2.8 X 2.5 = 7 x 25.4 177.8mm)

    T-moto is Less falling rate with the new rockers so it gets the full 6.35" = 162mm.
    Hence the whopping 13mm difference.

    HOWEVER, the 2.5" stroke on Bruja makes it more supple, ie the Buttery effect you feel.

    I had to figure all this out, because I wanted to run the V2 Bruja rockers on my V1, needed to see if mathematically if it would work or make a difference, before investing. It did, and I now run'em and they work great, lower BB, more supple and I netted 12mm of travel. (Went from 148mm to 160mm at the middle chainstay setting, technically I can get 163 if I use the longest Cstay setting)

    Curious, why not run a Cuervo since you're a Northstar fan?
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    T-moto is Less falling rate with the new rockers so it gets the full 6.35" = 162mm.
    Hence the whopping 13mm difference.
    So were the V2 rockers more progressive than the 150mm rockers? I had a bit of a hard time controlling bottoming while using a shock that didn't have a BO control. That last inch of travel was blown thru easier than the previous.

    I'd like to see just the opposite - progressiveness built into the rockers/linkage.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    So were the V2 rockers more progressive than the 150mm rockers? I had a bit of a hard time controlling bottoming while using a shock that didn't have a BO control. That last inch of travel was blown thru easier than the previous.

    I'd like to see just the opposite - progressiveness built into the rockers/linkage.
    I think so, I think the 150 may have been close to linear, 1/2 progressive 1/2 Falling, its the Falling rate that Mechanically prevents the B.O. I think V2, (it's been 2-3 yrs since I had the conversation) are 2/3 pro, 1/3 Falling and they are not linear. ie the amount of pro is equal to the falling. May explain what you felt. Since I never ran the 160 V2 I don't know for sure, but mathematically it makes sense.

    Shock setup and falling rate can go TOO far though. When I ran the Air Swinger shock on Bruja with V1 Rockers, I Had to basically case a jump or hit something crazy hard to get the last 2/3" of stroke. Switch back to the now Pushed Vanilla RC with B.O. Bumper and V2 BRUJA rockers and while the shock shows I'm using full travel, I don't feel harsh B.O.
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 02-11-2011 at 01:29 PM.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    I think so, I think the 150 may have been close to linear, 1/2 progressive 1/2 Falling, its the Falling rate that Mechanically prevents the B.O. I think V2, (it's been 2-3 yrs since I had the conversation) are 2/3 pro, 1/3 Falling and they are not linear. ie the amount of pro is equal to the falling. May explain what you felt. Since I never ran the 160 V2 I don't know for sure, but mathematically it makes sense.

    Shock setup and falling rate can go TOO far though. When I ran the Air Swinger shock on Bruja with V1 Rockers, I Had to basically case a jump or hit something crazy hard to get the last 2/3" of stroke. Switch back to the now Pushed Vanilla RC with B.O. Bumper and V2 BRUJA rockers and while the shock shows I'm using full travel, I don't feet harsh B.O.
    A hot shower after riding should take care of your harsh BO issues.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  13. #113
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    Called and ordered two new frames last night. New El Chiquillo for my daughter as she has already outgrown her last and the new 2011 El Rey 29er when available. Although my current El Rey only has a few rides on it I'm sold on what's proposed for the new frame. Anyone looking for a 2010 El Rey frame PM me and you'll get a screaming deal.

  14. #114
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    Spoke with Theresa today. The new changes to the El Rey sound interesting. Geo numbers should be out soon. Images in a month or so.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by trb2929
    Spoke with Theresa today. The new changes to the El Rey sound interesting. Geo numbers should be out soon. Images in a month or so.
    care to elaborate on what she shared with you?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnomer
    care to elaborate on what she shared with you?
    Not a whole lot to share that has not already been mentioned. El Rey will get a HA change, shorter CS along with the other things on the list. She was not sure yet if a 5" rocker was going to be available since the EL Cap was no longer going to be an option. At least that is what I understood. She said the geo numbers should be out in some form soon. Images as soon as some of the new orders are fill. She said a lot of items need to be manufactured to make it all happen. Give them time as they seem pretty positive these changes were to better the line not just a cosmetic change. Price should be in the range as previous frames. There will be a trade option available. But might get more on the open market. Seemed like the 4 or 5 inch travel bikes were the priority. But that was just may take. I'm not speaking for Ventana.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  17. #117
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff in Bend
    Doesn't a 150mm hub give you a symetrical wheel? If so shouldn't that be the standard width hub and not be just for downhill?
    142mm is the same actual hub width as 135mm, so chainline is not affected, and many hubs can be adapted.

  18. #118
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    Spy pictures !

    What's taking so long......this isn't like the new RFX thingy is it ?

    Nevermind me , I'm just anxious to see the new V's ! TIG.

  19. #119
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    I think i had a timeous crack in my El Salt frame where the warrantee will hopefully get me the brand new design, together with my last weeks arival ,Orbea's Alma 29er hardtail, i am one happy man, btw the Alma's paint work sucks, scratches at the slightest brush.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickyjay
    I think i had a timeous crack in my El Salt frame where the warrantee will hopefully get me the brand new design, together with my last weeks arival ,Orbea's Alma 29er hardtail, i am one happy man, btw the Alma's paint work sucks, scratches at the slightest brush.
    Don't get your hopes up because a crack is cheaper to fix then handing over a new frame.....it's a dollar and sense thingie.

    I was hoping to see some spy pictures but I guess Ventana is keeping a tight lid on the new frame design.......

  21. #121
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    I hope you are wrong, the agent here in South African reckons Vetana's lifetime warrantee will replace the cracked frame

  22. #122
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickyjay
    I hope you are wrong, the agent here in South African reckons Vetana's lifetime warrantee will replace the cracked frame
    They usually replace only the front or rear triangle, and it will have to match your existing frame.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickyjay
    I hope you are wrong, the agent here in South African reckons Vetana's lifetime warrantee will replace the cracked frame
    Ventana doesn't have a lifetime warranty........check their website www.ventanausa.com But I am sure Ventana will take care of the repair or replace since they have the best CS in the business. But that's not for me to say. I'm just telling you don't get set on receiving a new frame.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    They usually replace only the front or rear triangle, and it will have to match your existing frame.
    OR repair... Replace or repair, which is very cool.

  25. #125
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    okay, here we are at the end of feb. what is the word? anything? some geo numbers? confirmation on the new line-up? any news? anything at all?

  26. #126
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    I can share a bit of info: I went by the shop last week and Sherwood & Co. are super busy getting out a huge order. I got a sneak peak of the TT tubing and general tubing that will be used. Very, very sweet! I was hoping to see one of the new preliminary test frames tucked in a corner....no luck. Another few weeks at most would be my guess and we'll be seeing completed product.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel66
    I was hoping to see one of the new preliminary test frames tucked in a corner....no luck. .
    In Nelson Voice: "HAHA! I have!"



    Nice new toys you got last week too!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  28. #128
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    You dog! I was looking around the shop while trying to be conspicuous.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel66
    You dog! I was looking around the shop while trying to be conspicuous.
    You gotta ride with us! If Ma' nature ever stops pissing on us!

    Rode Slammin on Sunday, and two days AFTER the rain stopped it was still literally sheeting water across the trail from run off.

    Gonna be a green, Poison Oak filled spring!
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 03-03-2011 at 11:56 AM.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I'd love to have something similar to Canfields Yelli Screamy. Spent the day riding one with Chris Canfield a couple months back, the bike rocks.

    I know I can get something like this custom from Ventana, I asked, just couldn't afford it.
    yes, yes and yes

    some aggressive hardtail 26er or 29er
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    Gonna be a green, Poison Ok filled spring!
    Ft. Ord gets even heavier P.O. growth than Slammin' Balls. It's cool enough here that you don't need to be near the water for it to grow.

    If you're down here for Sea Otter, bring your Technu and I'll show you the fun stuff where the trails are a bit too fragile to hold up to a couple thousand racers in one weekend.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy f
    Ft. Ord gets even heavier P.O. growth than Slammin' Balls. It's cool enough here that you don't need to be near the water for it to grow.

    If you're down here for Sea Otter, bring your Technu and I'll show you the fun stuff where the trails are a bit too fragile to hold up to a couple thousand racers in one weekend.
    We noticed on our non-SO trips!

    And yep, will be there for S.O. and sounds fun. Knowing you I better start doing hill repeat training......

    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    We noticed on our non-SO trips!

    And yep, will be there for S.O. and sounds fun. Knowing you I better start doing hill repeat training......

    Been hammering a 32x18 all over the place on the El C since I snapped a tooth on my 19t cog a year ago. I can manage most of the climbs but there are two that have stumped me so far.

    There's some steeper and more technical new stuff across the hwy at Toro Regional Park. Some decent video if you search "toro" and "pipeline" on YouTube.
    The glass is twice as large as it needs to be

  34. #134
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    Okay, I have to ask the question: Will the El Chamuco make its triumphant return when the new frame designs come out?

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by saidrick
    Okay, I have to ask the question: Will the El Chamuco make its triumphant return when the new frame designs come out?
    I hear the Chamuco will have a Spilled Pivot rear end.

    Take that DW and/or Trek!
    www.velocitybicycles.comWhere customers become friends, not simply a dollar sign.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    I hear the Chamuco will have a Spilled Pivot rear end.

    Take that DW and/or Trek!
    Spilled Pivot, is that the new multi PPV design?
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by trb2929
    Spilled Pivot, is that the new multi PPV design?
    ...maybe spilt pivot would be a good thing on all the ventana models...
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1962
    ...maybe spilt pivot would be a good thing on all the ventana models...
    If you do not hang onto the rear brake - is not not split pivot exactly the same performance as a single pivot - just with more mess in the pivot area?

    142x12mm rear axle FTW.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    If you do not hang onto the rear brake - is not not split pivot exactly the same performance as a single pivot - just with more mess in the pivot area?

    142x12mm rear axle FTW.
    ---W.T.F---
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  40. #140
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    Ordered mine today. I can't wait till I get my frame. I know mine will come with at least one or two or three of those Sherwood's to do list woo hooo. shhhh. Thanks SG!!

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lil Padrino
    Ordered mine today. I can't wait till I get my frame. I know mine will come with at least one or two or three of those Sherwood's to do list woo hooo. shhhh. Thanks SG!!
    ...Cool. now don't forget to post some pics so we can drool, what mod. did you order ? and to everyone else that gets the new frames pass on the word about ventana to other people looking for a new bike, we need to keep the small made in the USA company going...ralph
    i need to ride more. building jumps takes to much time...my other hobby is kicking the crap outta my home built mook jong.

  42. #142
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    The wait is more painful than a slow strip tease !

    Quote Originally Posted by Lil Padrino
    Ordered mine today. I can't wait till I get my frame. I know mine will come with at least one or two or three of those Sherwood's to do list woo hooo. shhhh. Thanks SG!!

    So are these changes supposed to be this secretive ? Hint , hint ! TIG.

  43. #143
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    I have to wonder why somebody would purchase a bike not really knowing what they are going to get.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  44. #144
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    Honestly, I wish that I was given a little heads up back in Dec when my Terremoto cracked. Without any information to make a decision moving forward on that frame, it got sidelined and I am pedaling something different for now. I loved my V and would gladly buy another, guess I'll check out the offerings when they finally come out.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I have to wonder why somebody would purchase a bike not really knowing what they are going to get.
    The power of foresight coupled with some technical knowledge.

    Seriously, that is quite a simple list that Ventana posted - how much different can it be, as long as it fits?

  46. #146
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    What's up with ordering bikes and not really knowing what you're getting??? We need some teaser shots and geometry specs ASAP

    Edit: Didn't see that OHM just asked the same question. Curious minds want to know.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    The power of foresight coupled with some technical knowledge.

    Seriously, that is quite a simple list that Ventana posted - how much different can it be, as long as it fits?
    I wouldn't consider the changes "simple", most sound significant to me.

    Here is the list...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New changes to the 2011 Ventana frame-ventana-todo.jpg  

    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  48. #148
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    I'm happy that these tweaks are slated for the 20 inch frames, but what of the other sizes?
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    I'm happy that these tweaks are slated for the 20 inch frames, but what of the other sizes?
    Had to search for it, but finally found it! LOL!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I have to wonder why somebody would purchase a bike not really knowing what they are going to get.
    Its a Ventana, you know exactly what your going to get.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan
    I wouldn't consider the changes "simple", most sound significant to me.

    Here is the list...
    Is there any item on the list you can not get a very clear idea what exactly it will do and how it will perform?

    We do not know what he will do to the geometry, but it is hard to fathom that it would be unridable.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Is there any item on the list you can not get a very clear idea what exactly it will do and how it will perform?

    We do not know what he will do to the geometry, but it is hard to fathom that it would be unridable.
    I'm pretty sure we can count on the folks at Ventana to make something that is going to work, and probably work pretty well, but I personally would not run out and purchase before for the numbers have been released. Most of the stuff on the "To do list" are nonissues if you wanted to jump onto the bandwagon, but the longer top tube would stop me until Ventana decides to let us all in on the secret.

    Plus, my wife always makes to do lists for me and I rarely get them completed.
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  53. #153
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    For some, the longer TT would be a blessing. I had to get a 21" frame to get a TT I wanted 24.8". It cost me an extra 1.25 lbs of frame weight, since that is how overbuilt the frames are. If I could get a "Large" frame with a 24.5" TT, I would have saved the extra weight. I will say, I don't have the money or balls to order on blind faith, but I look forward to hearing from those that did!
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  54. #154
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    Also in the "to do" list is slacker seat angles, which to some extent will cancel out the effect of the longer top tubes...

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Also in the "to do" list is slacker seat angles, which to some extent will cancel out the effect of the longer top tubes...
    I'm interested to see how SG pulls off a slacker seat tube angle with a lower bb and shorter chainstays.

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Also in the "to do" list is slacker seat angles, which to some extent will cancel out the effect of the longer top tubes...
    Slacker seat tube yields a longer effective TT for the same reach and stack, so if you consider reach to be the most important fit parameter being left unchanged for a given size, then slacker seat tube could be responsible for the longer ETT.

    I thought the tendency in many recent frames was for steeper seat tube, slacker front tube.. which I like..

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe

    I thought the tendency in many recent frames was for steeper seat tube, slacker front tube.. which I like..
    Same here. Custom geo on an EC yielded a 24" TT with a 66* HTA and 74* STA. Perfect for someone built like me. Long arms, long legs.

    Drawback: The bike is long, but stable.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Is there any item on the list you can not get a very clear idea what exactly it will do and how it will perform?.

    please tell me "exactly" what the optimized pivot position will do/ change in direct comparison to the current position
    breezy shade

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhodge
    please tell me "exactly" what the optimized pivot position will do/ change in direct comparison to the current position
    It will cause an almost imperceptible improvement in ride which will mostly remain the same as we know and love. Bank on it. For the range of possible difference one can ride multiple modern low single pivot bikes. Yeah, they are a bit different.

    I think the exact angles values are a bit more interesting.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue
    I'm interested to see how SG pulls off a slacker seat tube angle with a lower bb and shorter chainstays.
    Higher main pivot means the wheel isn't coming forward as much as on the old bikes and clears up room for shorter chain stays and/or slacker seat tubes.
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  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovin
    Same here. Custom geo on an EC yielded a 24" TT with a 66* HTA and 74* STA. Perfect for someone built like me. Long arms, long legs.

    Drawback: The bike is long, but stable.
    Those are the same numbers for the EC I ordered last year, except for the HTA which is 68* I went with a low 13.1 BB and love how the bike carves.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    Slacker seat tube yields a longer effective TT for the same reach and stack, so if you consider reach to be the most important fit parameter being left unchanged for a given size, then slacker seat tube could be responsible for the longer ETT.

    I thought the tendency in many recent frames was for steeper seat tube, slacker front tube.. which I like..
    We may be looking at it from different, well, angles. A bike with a 23" top tube and 72º seat tube is shorter than a bike with a 23" top tube and a 74º seat tube. Once the saddle is set in the preferred position in relation to the bottom bracket, the latter of the two frames will have longer reach and wheelbase.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    We may be looking at it from different, well, angles. A bike with a 23" top tube and 72º seat tube is shorter than a bike with a 23" top tube and a 74º seat tube. Once the saddle is set in the preferred position in relation to the bottom bracket, the latter of the two frames will have longer reach and wheelbase.
    Axe is right.

    Slacker seat-tube => seat is tilted more backwards => longer ETT

    So a 72 degree seat tube will give a longer ETT than 74 degrees.

    (..and the wheelbase isn't affected by this at all)

  64. #164
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    seatube angles

    maybe this will help.

    seatube angles listed in the geometry page start from horizontal being zero, not vertical being zero.

    so, the larger the number, the closer to vertical & moving closer to the headtube shortening ETT.

    i think
    breezy shade

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Axe is right.

    Slacker seat-tube => seat is tilted more backwards => longer ETT

    So a 72 degree seat tube will give a longer ETT than 74 degrees.

    (..and the wheelbase isn't affected by this at all)
    Be sure you've read my post. What I've said is that if you keep the ETT the same, then the bike with the steeper seat tube has a longer wheelbase and reach. This is why bikes with steep seat tube angles tend to fit bigger than the top tube length would suggest, and is a big part of the reason the "reach" measuremet was devised.

    This has long been a problem, for example, with very small bike frames. Many frame builders will build an XS frame with a relatively short top tube, but then spec something like a 75º seat tube angle. Well, by the time the rider has positioned the saddle properly in relation to the bb (sliding the saddle far back in the seatpost clamp), the rider's stretch to the handlebar is uncomfortably long. Had the bike been spec'd with the same ETT and a 73º seat tube angle, the saddle wouldn't have to be moved back so far to get the right position over the bb, and the distance to the handlebar (and wheelbase) would be effectively shorter.

    So. If Ventana is lengthening effective top tubes slightly, and slackening seat tubes slighty, the changes may cancel each other out fit-wise.

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Be sure you've read my post.
    Maybe you should read your own post again?

    If you had included the word "effective" before the two words "top tube", I would have agreed 100%.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant
    Be sure you've read my post. What I've said is that if you keep the ETT the same, then the bike with the steeper seat tube has a longer wheelbase and reach. This is why bikes with steep seat tube angles tend to fit bigger than the top tube length would suggest, and is a big part of the reason the "reach" measuremet was devised.

    So. If Ventana is lengthening effective top tubes slightly, and slackening seat tubes slighty, the changes may cancel each other out fit-wise.
    We are speculating on what would be the invariant for an individual size.

    I believe that manufacturers should slot the standard sizes by reach, as it is the most consistent measure for estimating a proper fit. Say, 400mm for size Medium, and one inch up or down for each size.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe
    We are speculating on what would be the invariant for an individual size.

    I believe that manufacturers should slot the standard sizes by reach, as it is the most consistent measure for estimating a proper fit. Say, 400mm for size Medium, and one inch up or down for each size.
    Agreed, we are. Also, and for much the same reason, I agree that "reach" would give a much better guide to fit. Only problem is that now I have to figure out what my ideal reach would be to buy a frame.

  69. #169
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    I have a new 2011 Big Brand bike that i'm perfectly happy with....but i find myself checking this thread every day and resisting the urge to call Ventana and beg for more info!!!

    You see, i've had a Ventana before but it wasn't SUPERDUST!!!
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  70. #170
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    Ha ha. I'm in exactly the same spot. Only I've had both Grinch Green and Superdust.
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  71. #171
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    What do we gotta do for a sneak peek? Where're the teaser shots? For those who have ordered, what's the ship date?

  72. #172
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    Rumor I just heard - I was sworn to secrecy, but I just can't hold it in - is that on the new bikes, the both bottom bracket and the main pivot will be located in a rotatable, pinch-bolt secured housing, much like the EBBs used in some single speeds. The new design won't rotate actively with suspension movement, like GT I-drive, but rather will allow the user to tune the main pivot location, relative to the bb, to completely cancel drivetrain effects on suspension activity over a range of chain-ring and even wheel sizes.

    Want to run a Hammerschmidt? Set the pivot inline with the ring and you're perfect. You'll even get the choice of two positions: foreward of BB for short chainstays and aft for longer wheelbase & high speed stability. Want to run just a 36T ring on a 1x10? You can do that too, just by rotating the assembly. It sounds pretty slick, I think.

    I haven't heard the name of this new design. I guess it's held up by patent issues, but stay tuned. It's going to be cool!
    Since when did Need have anything to do with this?

  73. #173
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    That sounds interesting. When I was in the gondola at Mammoth discussing the new changes for 2011 with Sherwood, he mentioned a new main pivot location, but not something adjustable. This should be pretty cool.
    Ripping trails and tipping ales

  74. #174
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    wow!

    looks i'll be taking advantage of the trade-in value on my less than yearold Terremoto. love that frame but i gotta believe the next generation Ventana's are going totally must have.
    breezy shade

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    Rumor I just heard - I was sworn to secrecy, but I just can't hold it in - is that on the new bikes...
    I'm hoping that this isn't just about a week too early. April 1 is just around the corner.

    Sounds very cool if implemented right. And Ventana is one that could implement it right.

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  76. #176
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    If you Guys and Gals are looking for a good price on an old Ventana frame to go towards a new one you might want to check out the classified ads or ebay. Look for the Marble Peak frame.....you could save some serious coin once these beauties are unveiled!

  77. #177
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    Wow that's incredibly cool if it's true.

    Teresa told me 2 days ago that they are just about ready to show geometry for a 4 and 5" bike, no 6" bike yet. I don't believe the geo drawing will show the actual frame though, so don't get too excited. This new pivot mounting system would make sense- they want to show geo but not the new frame yet even though they're making parts allready!!!
    Maybe they are indeed waiting for a patent, or are fine tuning some crazy cool stuff that's new to the industry.

    It's funny- i'll get chastized by Turner Homers, Giant guys and suspension nerds in general if i go to a Ventana...i love my Maestro bike, it is simply excellent in terms of pedaling effiency. But i gotta say, now that i use 2 x 10 with a 26t granny, a single pivot that is up higher than previous Ventanas, so that it can have a bit of rearward axle path for at least 1/3 of the travel (at sag point), would work great and i could get the ultra solid frame design and big bearings that Ventana is famous for.

    Back just a short year ago when nearly everyone was using a 22t or maybe a 24t granny the pivot location was a major compromise. A low pivot would feel good while climbing up stair step rocks but feel mushy while motoring up smoother climbs forcing stiffer shock tunes. Higher pivots would result in unwanted chain tourque and yucky pedal feedback. 10 speed has been a huge help in this!!!! Pie plate 36t cassettes are god sent!

    VPP, DW, Mestro etc still have their benifits but well built, super solid and reliable advanced single pivot- with linkage designs will have more relavence again. They still rule DH and now can get a bigger piece of the trail bike pie.

    Sherwood pops a big one by releasing an adjustable pivot. Old school Ventana lovers, big bike riders and heavier fellas can keep their 22 and 24t rings and adjust the frame accordingly, and go fast-big hit- people like me can raise the pivot a bit to help the bike ride well at speed and help the bike climb well all at the same time!!!

    Dang- i'm really getting excited about these bikes. Sign me up!

    Haha Scott@Go-Ride gave me an old Ventana T shirt yeaterday out of his wifes closet! He was joking around about how stoked i am on the prospect of being on a Ventana again. Good timing!
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  78. #178
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    Yep, the new frame is bad ass. I was fortunate to see the cad drawings of the near final design...just a few tweeks till production. I was half joking about taking a picture with my iPhone. Sherwood said go for it but then put a coffee cup over the main portion of the frame. Lots of cool detail and suprises going into the frames. Sorry Aaron....I got to see it before you! Haha. LOL!

  79. #179
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    Geebus, you guys are so gullible. Please note that MR. Icegeek is the same person who said that only the 20" frames were getting the new changes, becuase the 2011 on the "list" picture looks like 20".

    Optimized pivot location does NOT mean Adjustable Pivot Location.

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  80. #180
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    Yeah yeah new bike whatever....but can Sherwood make it STOP raining in NorCal??!! I mean really, talk about the need to step up here and make a change already. I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    www.velocitybicycles.comWhere customers become friends, not simply a dollar sign.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    . I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    AMEN!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  82. #182
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    At 5'4" i'm pretty sure i could fit the new 20" frame with 31" wheels as long as i can tune my pivot location for 20/44 gearing on the 2012 prototype Facerace ti cranks with carbon rings.
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  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by krispy@go-ride.com
    At 5'4" i'm pretty sure i could fit the new 20" frame with 31" wheels as long as i can tune my pivot location for 20/44 gearing on the 2012 prototype Facerace ti cranks with carbon rings.
    Wasn't that Bender's bike in the original "Down" video?

    ...the rumor mill is certainly a buzz...

    did someone mention scandium?

  84. #184
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    I want one in turquoise...

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Yeah yeah new bike whatever....but can Sherwood make it STOP raining in NorCal??!! I mean really, talk about the need to step up here and make a change already. I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    Myke, Looks like Sherwood has done his magic!
    <iframe class="IBATOM-synd-ifr" width="124" height="94" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" src="http://www.kcra.com/weather/18542754/media.html?qs=;a=t;displaymethod=embed;linktarget= newwindow;shortname=7 Day"> </iframe>

    Even if it's just on the Roadie V, I need to get some miles in!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by icegeek
    I haven't heard the name of this new design. I guess it's held up by patent issues, but stay tuned. It's going to be cool!
    I vote for the "Anti-Tension Kettenantrieb"..

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Yeah yeah new bike whatever....but can Sherwood make it STOP raining in NorCal??!! I mean really, talk about the need to step up here and make a change already. I'm sick and tired of this rain.
    I want to ride!!! Even if it is on my 'old' ventana's.
    OH yeah! Does anyone got an APP to make this rain stop? My Padrino should be done next week! I need a better weather than this!!!

  88. #188
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    How much shorter are the chainstays on the 29ers?

  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by sikocycles
    How much shorter are the chainstays on the 29ers?
    By about 4 inches then those on a 36er.

  90. #190
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    I am sick and tired of checking the Ventana website and not seeing any updates.

  91. #191
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    What I'm afraid of is that there is a mention to seat angles but not to head angles. And those slaker seat angles seem to me more a consequence of shorter chainstay.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killrop
    I am sick and tired of checking the Ventana website and not seeing any updates.
    Wow, that is harsh. Maybe a V is not for you?
    .
    "...when your ride is nearly over, it seems to have lasted but an instant..."


    Stuff

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt
    Wow, that is harsh. Maybe a V is not for you?
    Why is that?

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by toponoto
    What I'm afraid of is that there is a mention to seat angles but not to head angles. And those slaker seat angles seem to me more a consequence of shorter chainstay.
    Head angles are also being changed.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    Head angles are also being changed.
    Seams like a lot of fear is being generated by head angles and seat angles........unwarrented at this point. I am sure Ventana will be offering semi-custom for those that want a 72.25917 deg SA and a 68.251375 deg HA.

  96. #196
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    maybe I'm the only one...

    but I don't like the look of any of the change suggestions.. save the journal bearings.

    Plastic bottom brackets that slide in = lame
    Slack HA and SA = bad for steep climbing
    Tire clearance = I run schwalbe 2.35s just fine
    12mm thru = not needed/ already super stiff rear
    tapered head tube = looks stupid, not needed (maybe 29")

    I feel like Ventana might be listening a little too much to the bike geeks instead of keeping with the "KISS" principle which has built their reputation to what it is now.

  97. #197
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    Well, in my case it's more a matter of curiosity, I hope I'll stay with my old Ciclon & Bruja for a quite long (finger crossed).

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    Plastic bottom brackets that slide in = lame
    Press fit bottom bracket - lighter, more robust, simpler, stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    Slack HA and SA = bad for steep climbing
    Stop living in the last century. Plenty of frames that had proven otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    Tire clearance = I run schwalbe 2.35s just fine
    Run 2.4 with room for mud.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    12mm thru = not needed/ already super stiff rear
    Or you can do same stiffness at lighter weight, with simple, strong and more robust industry standard interface.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    tapered head tube = looks stupid, not needed (maybe 29")
    Recalibrate your vision then. Best stiffness to weight ratio, more room to weld larger downtube, compatible with lighter, stronger forks, or use angle adjustable headset with a regular steerer.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnyhiphopper
    I feel like Ventana might be listening a little too much to the bike geeks instead of keeping with the "KISS" principle which has built their reputation to what it is now.
    Exactly the opposite. This list is all the good, simplified, updates, and none of the bad.

  99. #199
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    new geometry and other changes

    I can't wait to see the new changes on the future Ventana line and not just the FS frames but hopefully the HT frames as well ! I don't know why some peeps are afraid of change....at least wait and see or better yet demo when available before raising speculations on how it will perform or look ! TIG.
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    The new Ventana geo is posted on their website.

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