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  1. #1
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    El terre and hammerschmidt

    I believe it has been agreed upon that my 08 terre can fit the hammer if I remember correctly.

    Is anyone running it?

    How does it feels to be always running what would be the lower ring? in regards to pivot placement
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling
    I believe it has been agreed upon that my 08 terre can fit the hammer if I remember correctly.

    Is anyone running it?

    How does it feels to be always running what would be the lower ring? in regards to pivot placement
    Yes, you are correct - we can fit it!

    Now, as for the pivot placement and suspension action, I am not quite sure. The only input I have to offer is that the TM is a good granny ring climber (both my legs and Scott at Go Ride offer this)....my TM feels active. That would be my only fear is having a suspension that tightened up in the lower gear.

    Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can pipe in.

  3. #3
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    that's my point, we'll see if there is some other input.
    most of the demo bikes were FSR or 4 bar bikes (nicolai, spesh and such)

    I want to get one anyhow to fit my next Chromag so I might get one no matter what
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  4. #4
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    Since the chain will be pulled along a 22 or a 24 tooth chainring I believe that the suspension will definitely remain active while climbing.

    But alas, I have not installed one on a ventana yet. Tore down my Bruja before I pulled the trigger on one of those bad boys.
    www.velocitybicycles.comWhere customers become friends, not simply a dollar sign.

  5. #5
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    thanks for the clarification, I guess the problem lies when you own a nomad or a VPP thingy
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  6. #6
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    Well, I picked up the phone and called a well-known shop that deals with such matters.

    Let's just say that the ISCG tabs have to have been mounted precisely and concentrically, as the Terremoto they tried to outfit just last week ended with failure due to the margin of error on the ISCG tabs' mounting.

    He voiced that they thought the TM was one of the best candidates due to the suspension design.

    I will say that this is a bit disconcerting, as my $2k+ frame should work with something like this if I so desired...I'd be a bit miffed if it didn't.

  7. #7
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    could it be fixed with some facing?
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling
    could it be fixed with some facing?
    Apparently not. They have the facing tool and it was too far off.
    Last edited by CharacterZero; 08-12-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  9. #9
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    A call to Mr. Sherwood seems to be in order here.
    I wonder if he's played with one yet...

    I don't understand how one cannot face the bb shell or tabs enough. Regardless if they're off. I'd say they would have to be 1/8" out of plane to really make a difference where you wouldn't feel comfortable taking that much material away.


    dun dun dunnnnn.....the plot thickens...
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  10. #10
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    same here I'm not an engineer or even a real good mech but I can't quite figure how you couldn't work it out.Not that I don't believe you but I want to understand why
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling
    same here I'm not an engineer or even a real good mech but I can't quite figure how you couldn't work it out.Not that I don't believe you but I want to understand why
    Apparently the tolerances are THAT tight on it.

    drop me an email through the site if you want more information.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes
    If tolerances are that tight, aren't they going to have a hard time finding bikes to that will handle the install?
    1. I am sure that they would take this into account in R&D before committing to production.
    2. There are two ways to affix the ISCG tabs - they are either welded on (like V does) or they are machined. I'd imagine builders are paying a bit more attention to this now that there is a product with incredibly tight tolerances that people seem to want.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    1. I am sure that they would take this into account in R&D before committing to production.
    2. There are two ways to affix the ISCG tabs - they are either welded on (like V does) or they are machined. I'd imagine builders are paying a bit more attention to this now that there is a product with incredibly tight tolerances that people seem to want.
    Between facing and thin spacers I just can't wrap my feeble brain around why someone couldn't make it work.
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  14. #14
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    a buddy of mine had 2 (he's a SRAM rider) and it fitted his specialized with no facing effortlessly even if he admits that it would have been better
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Between facing and thin spacers I just can't wrap my feeble brain around why someone couldn't make it work.
    You and me both....

    And in an industry with SOOO many different manufacturers and designs.. having a product that requires THAT tight of a tolerence seems imprudent.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  16. #16
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    problem solved

    In order to use those cranks you need a different ISCG mount which your current frame does not have.
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling
    problem solved
    Are you sure? I know there are three ISCG tab standards...let me dig up the thread we did on this before..

  18. #18
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    that's what Teresa told me, I was quite it had been said here that it fitted but maybe it was just theoritical. That's 05 ISCG but has it to be brazed or machined?
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling
    that's what Teresa told me, I was quite it had been said here that it fitted but maybe it was just theoritical. That's 05 ISCG but has it to be brazed or machined?
    Yeah, so I thought we were running the ISCG 05 standard, and the shop said that tolerances dictate that machined is the way to go.

    So you are saying that you called Ventana and they said that the brazed (that means welded on, right?) ISCG tabs are not welded within the tolerances dictated by SRAM for the HS?

    I wonder if they have any plans to move to a machined one.

    I also wonder what the odds are that 1/100 frames falls within spec on this.
    Last edited by CharacterZero; 08-14-2009 at 06:28 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    Yeah, so I thought we were running the ISCG 05 standard, and the shop said that tolerances dictate that machined is the way to go.

    So you are saying that you called Ventana and they said that the brazed (that means welded on, right?) ISCG tabs are not welded within the tolerances dictated by SRAM for the HS?

    I wonder if they have any plans to move to a machined one.

    I also wonder what the odds are that 1/100 frames falls within spec on this.
    and yet, Chromag are hammer-friendly and sport brazed mounts if I remeber correctly

    not even sure the MC hammer is a real asset, even if I really liked the ones I demoed, but what a drawback that is if the tolerances limit it that much
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  21. #21
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    IIRC, there are 2 factors to take into account....the facing which has already been discussed and the "timing" exact position of the tabs (wrt the chain), that's why there is a device included with the HS to see if the frame is compatible. Since ISCG has been used mostly for chain guides, etc being a bit off the spec has not been a big issue until now.

    I'm not sure exactly which is "off" in the Ventana tabs.

    IIRC, HS is compatible with ISCG (old/03) and ISCG '05

    EDIT: yeah both 03 and 05 are supported

    http://magicmechanics.com/hammerschm...UserManual.pdf

    "Frame compatibility check
    HammerSchmidt is engineered to mount to frames with ISCG 03 or ISCG 05 chain guide mounting tabs and 68, 73,
    or 83 mm bottom bracket shell widths. However, not all frames are made to the precision standards HammerSchmidt
    requires. Therefore, before installing you will need to perform a simple frame compatibility check to determine if you can
    use HammerSchmidt on your frame. It is critical to perform this check, otherwise you will experience complications
    with installation and/or function.
    To check compatibility, use the enclosed HammerSchmidt frame compatibility checker tool. First, remove your old crank arms
    and bottom bracket from your frame (if applicable). Next, thread the cup checker into the drive-side bottom bracket shell.
    Finally, slide the pin checker over the cup checker and insert the pins into the ISCG tabs. The pin checker is double sided; one
    side has ISCG 03 pins, the other ISCG 05 pins. Be sure to insert the appropriate pins into the ISCG holes. For compatibility,
    the pins must go into the ISCG holes, the cup checker must be centered in the pin checker and the arrow on the pin checker
    should point toward the rear wheel axle. If the tool is difficult to insert, won’t fit at all, or the arrow doesn’t point toward the rear
    wheel axle, you cannot use HammerSchmidt on your frame.

    If you need additional help to determine the compatibility of HammerSchmidt you can visit www.magicmechanics.com or head
    over to your local Truvativ dealer for assistance."

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    or head
    over to your local Truvativ dealer for assistance."
    Yeah, the shop I spoke to said they tinkered with it...but in the end, they will always go with the tool to ensure that it will function before tinkering at all.

  23. #23
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    So lets be clear on what can be concluded from this discussion - from reading and re-reading these posts it is still a bit murky to me - but this is what I've taken away:

    In order to absolutely determine hammerschmidt (HS) compatibility, the tool provided with the HS must be used to check the alignment of an individual frames ISCG mounts.

    In general, both ISCG '03 and '05 mounting patterns are supported; however, just having ISCG mounts does not guaranty compatibility. In addition, the "facing" and "timing" of the ISCG tabs on individual frames must also be within the specs required. This is what is tested with the HS compatibility tool.

    In regard to Ventana frames, particularly the Terremoto, at least one frame has been checked for compatibility and has failed (see post #7 above by CharacterZero in reference to a "well known shop" ). Most likely, this is a result of the ISCG tabs being welded onto the BB shell as opposed to being machined as one piece. Because the welding method is less precise (at least as applied here) it appears that some (possibly all) Ventana frames will not pass the fit test. With that said, there is also the chance that some frames have tabs that fall within the range required for HS operation.

    Bottom line, if you have a Ventana with ISCG tabs and are interested in installing the HS, you should (A) not get your hopes up that it will work but (B) have your frame checked by a shop with some experience installing the HS.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong on these...
    Last edited by CLAW; 08-19-2009 at 05:43 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLAW

    Bottom line, if you have a Ventana with ISCG tabs and are interested in installing the HS, you should (A) not get your hopes up that it will work but (B) have your frame checked by a shop with some experience installing the HS.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong on these...

    that is also what I understood

    but the B scenario is far from being ideal, not so many shops with some if any experience on the thing where I live
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling
    that is also what I understood

    but the B scenario is far from being ideal, not so many shops with some if any experience on the thing where I live
    +1
    +1

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLAW
    Bottom line, if you have a Ventana with ISCG tabs and are interested in installing the HS, you should (A) not get your hopes up that it will work but (B) have your frame checked by a shop with some experience installing the HS.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong on these...
    The Quick point... if you are ORDERING A new frame and want to or possible plan to run HS let Ventana know ahead of time. They will insure that the tabs are within HS spec.

    Longer version, ALL existing Ventana Frames with ISCG tabs have those tabs falling with the tolerances of the ISCG spec. SRAM claims their HS system works within those specs but is in fact a tighter tolerance subspec of the original ISCG tab specs. That's where the "incompatibilty" is coming up.

    I decided against ISCG on my new frame, I LOVE the idea of HS but just can't see buying into for such a steep price and in a first production run...in a few years, if and when I replace Bruja then I'll seriously look at it.

    -A
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  27. #27
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    ok cause in Europe most MChammers were speced on nicolais which do not feature a machined ISCG tab

    THX ciclistagonzo, it is clear, though it doesn't make much sense. quite I like you I hate being a guinea pig on a product but I really wanted to try that one, yet, the more I look like it the more complicated it gets
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  28. #28
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bling

    ok cause in Europe most MChammers were speced on nicolais which do not feature a machined ISCG tab
    Canyon also has the HS as stock equipment on some of its Torque models (no idea how the ISCG is on those though)

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    Canyon also has the HS as stock equipment on some of its Torque models (no idea how the ISCG is on those though)
    And the DB mission lineup has it too...

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