Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 77
  1. #1
    Oji
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    129

    DW link comparison?

    I've been riding a Turner 5.Spot for the past 4 years and really like the DW link suspension. I've had the bike rigged with a 650b front wheel for over a year, and have decided I want to go full 650b. Having ridden a 140 mm travel frame for a while, I don't think I really need all that travel and the idea of something a touch more upright and lighter is also appealing. Hence, I'm looking at the newly released 120-125 mm 650b frames that are appearing on the market now. The New Turner Flux would be ideal but for the 12.8" BB height. This is insanely low for my style of riding and somewhat frequent visits to rocky trails. I'd prefer something more in the 13.25" range. Thus the Alpino is attractive in that regard.

    I'm reluctant to move away from the DW link suspension and I've never ridden a Ventana. I know this is likely the wrong place to be asking because everyone here is totally sold on their Ventana bikes (as it should be!), but if anyone has direct experience with both a Ventana and a DW link Turner, I'd be grateful for an honest appraisal of the suspension dynamics, especially with regard to pedal bob and climbing.

    Thanks for any information or opinions.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    254

    DW link comparison?

    Call Chad at Red Barn Bicycles (406-363-2662). He's been riding a DW 5 Spot and now rides an Alpino, and has been riding turners and ventanas for years, so he will have a great perspective on suspension evolution on these frames.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by JC822 View Post
    Call Chad at Red Barn Bicycles (406-363-2662). He's been riding a DW 5 Spot and now rides an Alpino, and has been riding turners and ventanas for years, so he will have a great perspective on suspension evolution on these frames.
    +1 on this. Chad is a good and honest guy.
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  4. #4
    change is good
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    2,363

    DW link comparison?

    I really like the feel of my 429's suspension when pedaling compared to my last gen Rey. I do like single pivots with a good platform shock. My old single Scalpel 1 peddled great but had some brake jack which was slightly annoying. It seems the current gen Ventanas pedal better. Ultimately I may go the Alpino route. I loved my old Rey. Stiff, reliable, great mud clearance and easy to maintain. Creaking, short pivot life, delays for replacement frames, beta testing unreturned phone calls, BS life time guarantees, multi-linkages packing up, are not a part of Ventana's philosophy.

  5. #5
    El CicloPath!!!!!!!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    247
    My previous bike was the Flux and it was a good solid bike. To me, the suspension never felt as plush as my Ciclon, but the flux had the RP23 and my Ciclon is coil. Climbing....the flux didnt bob like the Ciclon does, but both have great traction and to me, the Ciclon was better on technical and rocky climbs.

    Descending, the Ciclon was a step up, but I think that is mostly due to the geometry. I also have wider rims on the Ciclon, but weight wise, the Flux was 25 lbs compared to the 32 lb Ciclon.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Chad at Redbarn as JC suggested is definitely a good idea. There are prolly some others too.

    I can give you a comparison to an Ibis Mojo HD (DW link) and a Ventana Ciclon and X-5s if you want. They're both 26", but I can give you the differences I feel between the suspension designs.

    The Ventana is a much more active suspension (single pivot), and you'll want to test ride it to get a feel. Note that not all single pivots are created equal, just as the DW links are not all created equal.

    The Ventana single pivot feels a lot like what a lot of people like about BMWs: they want to feel the road (in this case the trail). You'll feel every little thing, and the cornering for it is pretty awesome.

    The corners and the climbing are where I notice the difference: the Ventanas will sink the corners where the Ibis tends to rise a bit (the anti-squat), but the Ibis is definitely a better climber for someone like me who mashes. And in NorCal, we do a lot of climbing.

    The other thing about the DW link is it tends to sink into the suspension quicker so you're more likely to strike pedals. I'm striking the pedals more on my HD than I ever did on the Ciclon. It might be a BB height, but I don't know enough about suspension dynamics to tell you.

    I've also test rode the Pivots, and I don't like the feel of their bikes at all. You should ask on the Turner forum too.. there's definitely overlap between brands. And test ride where you can. Not all of the same sizes are created equally either.
    Really good post. Only thing I will add is that with those two bikes, you have to decide where you want your anti-squat to come from. The frame itself or from the shock? The current rage is that is should come all from the bike so the shock can be free to do what it wants. And everyone argues that Propedal (PP) is bad. In practice, I have found that ridding a bike the uses PP to control squat can give pretty much the same exact ride as a dw linked type bike. Both have benefits and both have drawbacks. And both may require a shock tune to give the most optimal ride.
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  7. #7
    Oji
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    129
    Thanks all for good insight. I have emailed Chad and might call later.

    Having previous experience with a SC Superlight, I'm familiar with the issues of single pivot suspension, and that's part of my hesitation on the Alpino. Nice bike, no doubt, and I'd really be keen on a demo ride. I could be making more of the low BB on the Flux than necessary. But of course that argues for a demo ride as well. Unfortunately I don't see the demos happening in my area (central NC).

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    496
    Keep in mind also that the high-forward pivot of your Superlight is a whole 'nother animal than the low pivot of most Ventanas (excluding the old Chamuco and Pantera).

    The high pivot single-pivots have lots of chain growth, so they stiffen up considerably (or even extend) while pedaling hard in the small ring. For a super-steep, smooth section of trail--or scooting up and over a ledge--that can be great, but for sustained climbing in the rocks you can't count on the rear end remaining plush. I spent years on a Chamuco, and found that I'd learned to micro-time my pedal effort so the suspension could compress when I needed it to. (The rearward wheel path also makes for great rocky-terrain descending.)

    The low pivot single-pivots, even the recently revised Ventanas with a slightly higher pivot, have far less interaction between the pedals and the suspension, so they remain very sensitive while climbing in rocky terrain, getting buttery, tractor-like traction. OTOH, the design tends to "squat" more, which feels less efficient on smoother terrain.

    For me, the current Ventana design is the most dialed single-pivot I've ridden, with the least number of compromises. I've very little ride time on multilink bikes, so I'll defer to others' takes on their merits.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    198
    I owned a 2012 El Rey and currently own a 429C. I liked the feel of the El Rey a lot. What I didn't like about the suspension was really only the fact that I like to climb out of saddle. With the El Rey this was not very good. To much movement for my tastes. If you stay in the saddle, its fine. The DW Link is fantastic for out of saddle climbing.

    The 429C will occasionally strike a pedal. The El Rey never did due to the higher BB as you mentioned.

    I don't think the pedal bob issue is really an issue, unless you climb out of saddle.

    Hope this helps.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    I went from a DW Sultan to a Zues and just spent some good time on a Pivot/Firebird. It's hard to come up with a definitive because set-up/wheel size and tweaks in design have so much impact on how a bike feels. For me both DW bikes out climb the Zues on long sustained non-technical (boring) climbs hands down.

    IMO the Zues is more predictable when the trail turns ugly. Maybe not more efficient, but more connected and intuitive to throw around. My Zues also takes drops better than the DW bikes I've ridden. I also like the ability to completely change the personality of my bike with the CTD platform - with the DW bikes you pretty much get what the designer intends you to get (which can be pretty damn good, just not as tweak-able).

    As far as maintenance goes... no argument, Ventana wins hands down. My DW Turners required complete tear downs every 6 weeks of winter riding in the PNW. My Zues has been through a PNW Winter, Spring and is most of the way through Summer on the same set of bearings. The only thing I've had to replace are the new Fox bushings on the shock which seem like a downgrade from previous versions.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    485
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Really good post. Only thing I will add is that with those two bikes, you have to decide where you want your anti-squat to come from. The frame itself or from the shock? The current rage is that is should come all from the bike so the shock can be free to do what it wants. And everyone argues that Propedal (PP) is bad. In practice, I have found that ridding a bike the uses PP to control squat can give pretty much the same exact ride as a dw linked type bike. Both have benefits and both have drawbacks. And both may require a shock tune to give the most optimal ride.
    This is correct: my old Ventana rode well with the pro pedal shock . My new dw link HD rides well with the pro pedal turned off.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    [QUOTE=Stripes;10600054]Isn't the Sultan at 29er vs a 650b? That would be a bigger difference on drops than the suspension design IMO.

    The Firebird is a 650B and the Sultan is a 29er. Both bikes on drops to flat were/are harsher than the single pivot Zues. I think it has something to do with the axle path on DW bikes that are engineered to have more platform because I've rented DW DH bikes where this was definitely not the case.

    Only complaint I have on the Fox CTD is that on 15-20 minute downhill runs the shock does seem to get overwhelmed as things heat up. I replace the seals on all my shocks (front and back) every 4-6 months and so far have not had any issues with any Fox products.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    https://www.facebook.com/events/498216996939247/

    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    But the Firebird 650b just came out, unless you converted an old bike to 650b.

    I don't like the Pivot suspension. It feels like abuse, and for that type of abuse, you might as well ride a hardtail or CX bike. Ibis has the DW link too, but doesn't feel harsh at all. Not sure if the Ibis suspension is more "DH" than the Pivot, but the Pivot just hurts.

    Just like not all single pivots are created equally--it's how they're implemented. Even from earlier generation of Ventanas, the suspension has a different feel, but it's the complete bike you buy: not just the suspension.

    Still not a fan of the CTD. Going to see if the large volume reducer in my HD helps the midstroke issues, but have my doubts. Most likely going to use it as a backup shock and get a Monarch Plus.

    I thought the Monarch Plus also performed much better on the Ciclon than the CTD. Should have just bought an extra and kept it around as a backup. Other than the CCDB (gawd, it's heavy), it's the only rear shock I've really been happy with.

  14. #14
    650b me
    Reputation: golden boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    I don't like the Pivot suspension. It feels like abuse, and for that type of abuse, you might as well ride a hardtail or CX bike.
    I know this is the Ventana forum, but I have to defend Pivot. I can't understand where you're coming from at all. Pivot's bikes feel plenty plush to me. Perhaps the suspension wasn't set up correctly for you?

    I'm following this thread because I really appreciate what Ventana does and I would love to support them. That said, I love the feel of my DW-link Pivot, especially the pedaling platform. Wish I could demo a Ventana to see how they ride. I can't buy a FS bike on faith.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    244
    I liked the 650B Pivot Firebird, it just felt a little short (cockpit) and somewhat harsher on drops to flat, in all other ways it rode really well for the hour or so that I had it at Duthie.

    Quote Originally Posted by golden boy View Post
    I know this is the Ventana forum, but I have to defend Pivot. I can't understand where you're coming from at all. Pivot's bikes feel plenty plush to me. Perhaps the suspension wasn't set up correctly for you?

    I'm following this thread because I really appreciate what Ventana does and I would love to support them. That said, I love the feel of my DW-link Pivot, especially the pedaling platform. Wish I could demo a Ventana to see how they ride. I can't buy a FS bike on faith.
    Last edited by wipp; 08-15-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  16. #16
    Team Fearless Descender
    Reputation: El Salt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,981
    Quote Originally Posted by golden boy View Post
    I love the feel of my DW-link Pivot, especially the pedaling platform.
    I won't even pretend to be a suspension guru, I've never owned a DW-link bike, though I've ridden one briefly, and I guess I'd say I'm a Ventanaphile. I currently own two (El Salt w/ RP23 and Terremoto w/ CCDB), and have owned others in the past. None of my current V's are of the new "curvy tube" coolness, which have even more refined suspension (and I'm drooling over a Zeus). I'm not one that plays into "mines better than yours", I think all modern designs and makers produce quality well thought out frames. All that being said, I'm 99% sure that a DW link frame is going to most definitely feel different than even the current models of Ventana. Having spoken to Sherwood on several occasions, I know the philosophy has been that suspension is supposed to be "active". Of course under braking, as I understand it, the suspension design of the Ventana (single pivot?) tends to lock out? At the same time, as I understand it the thinking behind the DW is no "squat", or "anti-squat" and therefor, relative to the Ventanas suspension, potentially(?) a little less "active" while climbing, etc., which is the selling point?

    Do my Ventanas "bob"? Well on both the RP23 (4" travel) and the CCDB (6" travel), yes if I look down at either shock, they are ever so slightly moving as i climb a fire road for example. But, I'd never know it through bike or pedal "feedback". Now, again, I've been riding V's for many years now. So, is my pedal stroke just that smooth through necessity? I can't say. I will say, that climbing technical ST and the like, is VERY enjoyable on the Venatna. I think this may be one of the strong points of the suspension? As far as suspension "lock out" when on the brakes, I can't say I notice this to be a problem, but here again I don't have much saddle time on other designs. I do understand that the new / current V's have been tweaked (pivot placement) to bring this to a minimum.

    Its a hard call, and I understand completely, without test riding a suspension design / bike its very difficult to shell out the cash for any of the upper end bikes - they ain't cheep.

    If you do go Ventana, I'm absolutely sure you'll be very happy with the attention to detail and just overall beauty of the frames, and the ability to call up Ventana HQ and talk to Teresa or Sherwood about anything is a nice plus too.

    Oh, and a quick edit... Yes, contact Chad at Red Barn (Custom Mountain Bikes, Road Bikes and Hand-made wheels | Red Barn Bicycles), or Mike at Velo City (Home), they both know their stuff, and have ridden and sell more then just Ventana. They could both give you the low down on the suspension traits.

    Best of luck, and "Ole!"
    .
    "...when your ride is nearly over, it seems to have lasted but an instant..."


    Stuff

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    I've ridden an El Ciclon and now a DW 5 Spot for the past 4 years. If you like the DW linakge you will likely NOT like the Ventana single pivot. Maybe get the Flux and put a 140 fork on it to boost the BB or just get a Burner. The Santa Cruz Solo with a 140 will also pedal great similar to the DW and it's a little taller than the new Flux.

  18. #18
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,307
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    I've ridden an El Ciclon and now a DW 5 Spot for the past 4 years.
    You rode the previous generation El Ciclon, have you spent any time on the new ones?
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    You rode the previous generation El Ciclon, have you spent any time on the new ones?
    Not the new one but it's still a single pivot. Any advancements made in pedaling likely cost some on the descending side of things. I can't imagine it being as efficient, compliant and brake over bumps better than Turners implementation of the DW-Link (best braking and small bump suspension I've ever touched)... all with never touching a lever on the shock. Not hating here, I do love the Ventanas and the Alpino looks killer but I've been too spoiled by this DW Spot that I couldn't go back now.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    I've ridden an El Ciclon and now a DW 5 Spot for the past 4 years. If you like the DW linakge you will likely NOT like the Ventana single pivot. Maybe get the Flux and put a 140 fork on it to boost the BB or just get a Burner. The Santa Cruz Solo with a 140 will also pedal great similar to the DW and it's a little taller than the new Flux.
    Does it work in the reverse? Meaning if you like Ventana suspension will you not like DW? I only ask because I own a Ventana El Bastardo and it is my first FS bike. I am really liking the look and geo of the new Giant Anthem Advanced 27.5". The Maestro is supposed to be similar to the DW link. Not sure I can find one to demo so am trying to find out as much as I can about the Anthem before making a purchase. I also like the Ibis HDR 650B but it is too heavy for my liking,. My Bastardo only weighs 26 lbs and I have been seeing weights on the HDR and they are all in the 28-29 range. So not really interested in getting a bike heavier than the one I already own.

    I really like the Bastardo on the trail but where I ride there are a lot of aggressive climbs that are short but somewhat step and technical. I'd like a bike that climbs a tad better than my Bastardo. My El Padrino fits the bill for that but I am 45 when I get done doing a singletrack ride on my El Padrino my body feels beat up.

  21. #21
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,307
    While I appreciate your love of your bike, and that's great, but simply writing it off as "a single pivot" is a bit short sided. I've spent limited time on new ones but it's a noticeable refinement. As for your conjecture of losing something on descending, no, not at all. The effeciency was gained by creating enough anti-squat at a point in the travel that mattered the most after that it acts like the previous gens active travel. After all my years on V's I'm too spoiled by active travel to go part time suspension!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  22. #22
    Team Hardcore Cornbread
    Reputation: Phishin Paul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    525
    Maybe someone here could inform me of why the out right hate on single pivot designed bikes. I was in my LBS last week and we were checking out the new Moots FS bike when the bike wrench chimes in that it is a $3000 Kona frame. I get it that not all frames are created equal. If single pivot was so out dated then why are companies like Marin coming out with a new line of bikes that are single pivot? I love my single pivot Zeus but I am also a weirdo.
    "Set the gearshift for the high gear of your soul".

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    While I appreciate your love of your bike, and that's great, but simply writing it off as "a single pivot" is a bit short sided. I've spent limited time on new ones but it's a noticeable refinement. As for your conjecture of losing something on descending, no, not at all. The effeciency was gained by creating enough anti-squat at a point in the travel that mattered the most after that it acts like the previous gens active travel. After all my years on V's I'm too spoiled by active travel to go part time suspension!
    Ride a good DW bike and you'll change -- but I get where you're coming from Aaron. We all ride what works for us. They're just bikes after all.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by procos View Post
    Does it work in the reverse? Meaning if you like Ventana suspension will you not like DW? I only ask because I own a Ventana El Bastardo and it is my first FS bike. I am really liking the look and geo of the new Giant Anthem Advanced 27.5". The Maestro is supposed to be similar to the DW link. Not sure I can find one to demo so am trying to find out as much as I can about the Anthem before making a purchase. I also like the Ibis HDR 650B but it is too heavy for my liking,. My Bastardo only weighs 26 lbs and I have been seeing weights on the HDR and they are all in the 28-29 range. So not really interested in getting a bike heavier than the one I already own.

    I really like the Bastardo on the trail but where I ride there are a lot of aggressive climbs that are short but somewhat step and technical. I'd like a bike that climbs a tad better than my Bastardo. My El Padrino fits the bill for that but I am 45 when I get done doing a singletrack ride on my El Padrino my body feels beat up.
    No, you will like the DW! There's a short transition period when climbing technical stuff but once you adapt it's awesome - the traction is just stupid good especially on loose steep climbs. You may be disappointed in the difference in frame stiffness going to the Anthem from a Ventana though. Something like the Burner or new 650b Flux will give you all the stiffness or more of the Ventana plus the great pedaling and plush ride down with never touching the shock (made in USA too). It's a beautiful thing to setup your bike to excel on the downs with zero compromise on the climbs. That's what sold me on the DW platform and the speeds you'll hit on the DH will surprise you because the braking so active and predictable. Ventana's are known for good handling on the downs too but you will have to compromise somewhere.

  25. #25
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,307
    For me? Yes, I'm so used to active suspension that every test ride I've done on DW/VPP/Maestro etc I can feel the pedal feed back, especially climbing on tech. Between those designs though, Maestro to me was the most active/least noticeable.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  26. #26
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,307
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    Ride a good DW bike and you'll change -- but I get where you're coming from Aaron. We all ride what works for us. They're just bikes after all.
    Well, I thought I did, they were Demo's from Turner and Pivot at Sea Otter! . (2011) But your second point, exactly, Ride what works for ya!
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 08-20-2013 at 04:08 PM. Reason: wrong year of Sea Otter
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Phishin Paul View Post
    Maybe someone here could inform me of why the out right hate on single pivot designed bikes. I was in my LBS last week and we were checking out the new Moots FS bike when the bike wrench chimes in that it is a $3000 Kona frame. I get it that not all frames are created equal. If single pivot was so out dated then why are companies like Marin coming out with a new line of bikes that are single pivot? I love my single pivot Zeus but I am also a weirdo.
    No single pivot hate, just honest differences in the designs that have been observed. That's what this thread is for.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    583
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    For me? Yes, I'm so used to active suspension that every test ride I've done on DW/VPP/Maestro etc I can feel the pedal feed back, especially climbing on tech. Between those designs though, Maestro to me was the most active/least noticeable.
    What do you mean by pedal feedback? I just got back into mountain biking a few years ago after a 20 year layoff. I came from riding a Klein Pinnacle back in the early '90's. When I jumped back into mountain biking my buddy recommended Ventana and I first bought the Padrino and still love it for my singletrack rides that aren't super rocky or bumpy. And then bought the Bastardo for the more technical and bumpy rides. Don't get me wrong I love my Bastardo but am very interested in getting a carbon FS 27.5" and can get a screaming deal on the Giant Anthem Advance 1. But want to do my homework before taking the plunge. I live in Michigan and don't need anymore than 4' of travel. As a matter of fact my Bastardo was 5.5" and I then traded shocks and rockers with Jmac to make it 4" and beat my best time on a 10 mile loop by a lot.

    Thanks,

    Chuck

  29. #29
    Team Hardcore Cornbread
    Reputation: Phishin Paul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    525
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    No single pivot hate, just honest differences in the designs that have been observed. That's what this thread is for.
    I remember when you had a 2007 El Ciclon. I too had that frame. When making comparisons it should be with the newly designed V frames unless we are going to compare my new Zeus to a 2007 Five Spot.
    "Set the gearshift for the high gear of your soul".

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    LncNuvue: did you ride the Mojo too? I'm curious to how it feels compared to the Turner DW link.

    Did you try the Ibis Mojo SL, HD, or Ripley? The Ibis DW link works really differently than the Pivot (can't say about the Turners), that it feels surprisingly plush on the downhills.

    The biggest thing I've noticed about the bikes is the Ventana really needs to get the low speed compression pretty locked down to not bob on the climbs for me (masher, not a spinner), but the Mojo needs to have the rebound damping really locked down. Either way, both feel pretty decent to me.

    It's more the overall package including the suspension implementation, not just the suspension design.
    I have not ridden the HD but have friends on the them who like it, both coil and air setups. The suspension curve on the HD is the closest DW curve to the 5 Spot with the Spot being slightly more plush so the rear end is going to behave very similar. That's from the head dude at Push, FWIW.

    I get the low speed compression thing. I tried out a Knolly Endo thinking I could do it and could not accept the trade offs in suspension setup to get that bike to pedal well. The descending took a major dump once I got it pedaling in an acceptable manner -- and still not pedaling as well as the Spot because there was more low speed platform on the shock causing the rear wheel to break loose on climbs.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Phishin Paul View Post
    I remember when you had a 2007 El Ciclon. I too had that frame. When making comparisons it should be with the newly designed V frames unless we are going to compare my new Zeus to a 2007 Five Spot.
    I recently rode/owned a Knolly Endo which I'm sure is a better linkage than V's new design. See my response to Stripes in this thread.

    I kind of walked into this forum and took a huge #2 on the sofa. Sorry about that guys.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Vespasianus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by golden boy View Post
    I know this is the Ventana forum, but I have to defend Pivot. I can't understand where you're coming from at all. Pivot's bikes feel plenty plush to me. Perhaps the suspension wasn't set up correctly for you?

    I'm following this thread because I really appreciate what Ventana does and I would love to support them. That said, I love the feel of my DW-link Pivot, especially the pedaling platform. Wish I could demo a Ventana to see how they ride. I can't buy a FS bike on faith.
    I think people get hung up on the Mach 5, which was more xc than plush. I demoed that bike for 2 days and so wanted to love it but it was just harsh. Although a dw linked bike, it felt nothing like a Turner 5 spot, which I ended up buying. I have heard that the new 5.7 is much better
    On MTBR, the reputation is infamous.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by procos View Post
    What do you mean by pedal feedback? I just got back into mountain biking a few years ago after a 20 year layoff. I came from riding a Klein Pinnacle back in the early '90's. When I jumped back into mountain biking my buddy recommended Ventana and I first bought the Padrino and still love it for my singletrack rides that aren't super rocky or bumpy. And then bought the Bastardo for the more technical and bumpy rides. Don't get me wrong I love my Bastardo but am very interested in getting a carbon FS 27.5" and can get a screaming deal on the Giant Anthem Advance 1. But want to do my homework before taking the plunge. I live in Michigan and don't need anymore than 4' of travel. As a matter of fact my Bastardo was 5.5" and I then traded shocks and rockers with Jmac to make it 4" and beat my best time on a 10 mile loop by a lot.

    Thanks,

    Chuck
    Chuck, pedal kickback or feedback is when you're pedaling over an obstacle or feature and the rear wheel wants to stop or reverse the pedals. It's usually due to chain growth when the suspension compresses. The older VPP designs suffered pretty badly from this. The DW Link on my Spot has minimal to no pedal kickback or feedback. To ever feel it you would need to be in the granny ring and very deep in the travel while hitting an object just the right way.

    Maybe consider 3 other bikes along with that Anthem: new Turner Flux, Santa Cruz Solo and Ventana Alpino. All are 650b.

  34. #34
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,131
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    the great pedaling and plush ride down with never touching the shock (made in USA too). It's a beautiful thing to setup your bike to excel on the downs with zero compromise on the climbs.
    This is key. With the DW link, you set up your suspension for DH performance - because you don't have to mess with it, to get great climbing.

    in my case I had a Push shock custom built with a DH damper - for my flux. And I run it with the most sag recommended (30%).

    You're not going to be able to do this with the Ventana. I'm sure they've improved wit the new pivot position - which puts them about where Turner was when they launched TNT, back in 2006.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  35. #35
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,131
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Chad at Redbarn as JC suggested is definitely a good idea. There are prolly some others too.

    I can give you a comparison to an Ibis Mojo HD (DW link) and a Ventana Ciclon and X-5s if you want. They're both 26", but I can give you the differences I feel between the suspension designs.

    The Ventana is a much more active suspension (single pivot), and you'll want to test ride it to get a feel. Note that not all single pivots are created equal, just as the DW links are not all created equal.

    The Ventana single pivot feels a lot like what a lot of people like about BMWs: they want to feel the road (in this case the trail). You'll feel every little thing, and the cornering for it is pretty awesome.

    The corners and the climbing are where I notice the difference: the Ventanas will sink the corners where the Ibis tends to rise a bit (the anti-squat), but the Ibis is definitely a better climber for someone like me who mashes. And in NorCal, we do a lot of climbing.

    The other thing about the DW link is it tends to sink into the suspension quicker so you're more likely to strike pedals. I'm striking the pedals more on my HD than I ever did on the Ciclon. It might be a BB height, but I don't know enough about suspension dynamics to tell you.

    I've also test rode the Pivots, and I don't like the feel of their bikes at all. You should ask on the Turner forum too.. there's definitely overlap between brands. And test ride where you can. Not all of the same sizes are created equally either.
    It doesn't appear you understand the DW link or antisquat. Unless you're pedaling through corners, antisquat isn't going to kick in.

    DW links are LESS likely to sag while pedaling - so if you're hitting your pedals its most likely your technique.

    Being that DW doesn't need any platform damping to pedal well - it's actually going to be more active than a single pivot.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  36. #36
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,131
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Nope, I don't and I really don't care. What I care about is how good the bike feels when I ride it.
    sweet
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  37. #37
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,131
    Quote Originally Posted by twangcat View Post
    I've been riding a Turner 5.Spot for the past 4 years and really like the DW link suspension. I've had the bike rigged with a 650b front wheel for over a year, and have decided I want to go full 650b. Having ridden a 140 mm travel frame for a while, I don't think I really need all that travel and the idea of something a touch more upright and lighter is also appealing. Hence, I'm looking at the newly released 120-125 mm 650b frames that are appearing on the market now. The New Turner Flux would be ideal but for the 12.8" BB height. This is insanely low for my style of riding and somewhat frequent visits to rocky trails. I'd prefer something more in the 13.25" range. Thus the Alpino is attractive in that regard.

    I'm reluctant to move away from the DW link suspension and I've never ridden a Ventana. I know this is likely the wrong place to be asking because everyone here is totally sold on their Ventana bikes (as it should be!), but if anyone has direct experience with both a Ventana and a DW link Turner, I'd be grateful for an honest appraisal of the suspension dynamics, especially with regard to pedal bob and climbing.

    Thanks for any information or opinions.
    You can own lots of different bikes, and still not understand how they work.

    I would recommend you call and talk to Dave Turner. He has built bikes with these systems - and he's going to give you honest feedback and answers.

    RE the low bottom bracket - ask him about that. He has good reasoning. DW's don't squat as much under pedaling as other bikes - so you can run lower bb's and get away with it.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  38. #38
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,307
    Quote Originally Posted by procos View Post
    What do you mean by pedal feedback? I just got back into mountain biking a few years ago after a 20 year layoff. I came from riding a Klein Pinnacle back in the early '90's. When I jumped back into mountain biking my buddy recommended Ventana and I first bought the Padrino and still love it for my singletrack rides that aren't super rocky or bumpy. And then bought the Bastardo for the more technical and bumpy rides. Don't get me wrong I love my Bastardo but am very interested in getting a carbon FS 27.5" and can get a screaming deal on the Giant Anthem Advance 1. But want to do my homework before taking the plunge. I live in Michigan and don't need anymore than 4' of travel. As a matter of fact my Bastardo was 5.5" and I then traded shocks and rockers with Jmac to make it 4" and beat my best time on a 10 mile loop by a lot.

    Thanks,

    Chuck
    As Lance described it, pedal feedback is the tugging sensation from the tension forces on the chain as the suspension compresses. The greater the chain growth designed into the suspension and WHERE the chaingrowth takes place in the travel, the more likely to feel it. Original VPP was terrible at this, you could feel it almost in any situation as they had massive amounts of chain growth. DW uses less chain growth than the original VPP about the same as VPP2. For me, a bigger guy (+220) I can feel it in all three systems when climbing. Maestro felt like a tough spot in my pedal stroke, the Pivot felt like a strong tug on the pedals backwards, the Spot felt in between. (For understanding, I rode the short course at Sea Otter on all three so same terrain, same conditions).The only IBIS I've ridden was the original also at SO and the short couse but a few years early, I could make the upper seatstay yolks hit the seat tube due to flex. (This was prior to the "lopes link" and well before the HD came out though)I was distracted by itand I didn't really pay attention to how it rode. Every year I go to SO ride a few new bikes and see what's out there. I keep going back to V because I haven't been wowed by anything out there enough to change. Heck, I'm so old school, I'm still on the OLD V design and like it. Others experiences will vary of course.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    790
    My .02: forget about BB height. You will notice more pedal strikes for the first few rides, and once you adapt the only thing you'll notice is how much better your bike handles.

  40. #40
    El CicloPath!!!!!!!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    247
    Here's my progression from the mid 90's...

    GT Pantera
    Lightspeed/Amp Reasearch
    Cannondale Super V
    Foes LTS
    Turner RFX
    Foes Slammer
    ..........................fast forward to 2012

    2012 Santa Cruz Blur LT med
    2011 Turner Flux DW med...then a large
    Ventana 2010 El Ciclon Path geo


    Of all the bikes I've actually owned and ridden extensively, the one I like overall the best is the Ventana. For me, once I got everything dialed in, it rides, feels, and does everything the best. Irregardless of the suspension design, for me, it has been the best climber, the best descender, the best on single track, the best on technical climbs, the best high speed sweeper, the best steep descender. And like Stripes said, its the overall bike, not just the suspension design.

    I do really like the Turners. I think of all the DW's I like them the best. Havent tried an Ibis, but I'm sure that it's a sweet bike too. But The Turners just didnt feel or fit me. They didn't feel as good on the trail as I do on the Ventana. I know a lot of things are subjective, but that's just how it is with me.

    I've been looking at other bikes too. For Downhilling, I'm really liking the Giants..the Glory, and the offerings from Canfield, Knolly, and Banshee look really cool.

    But for the places I ride, weight consideration, and overall use, I like my Ventana the most. It's a strong bike, stiff, great handling. Not too heavy....I'm sure wee all feel that way or similar about the other bikes as well.
    Last edited by Fachiro1; 08-28-2013 at 11:21 AM.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    5,429
    Interesting thread and civil discussion. I think most of us have a hard time articulating as well as understanding leverage curves and the differences between a single pivot and a DW-link and how that translates to differences in the ride. LcNuvue's comments are spot-on as well as Stripes who goes more by feel. After all, it's all about the ride and both are good. So, I'll add mine.

    My first Ventana was a 4" El Salt which I eventually upgraded to 5" rockers. When that broke I got the first iteration of the El Ciclone. When that broke I got the next one. I'm sure the newer pivot location has helped but in all cases, the suspension bobbed and suffered from pedal strikes. Some of that was the RP23 with mid-stroke wallow. Getting it Pushed helped but not nearly as much as going coil.

    Loved the active suspension on the downhills but all three Ventana iterations did not corner nearly as well as the 2010 5-Spot that I'm on (160 mm Lyrik). Some of it is head angle but some is bb ht as well as frame design. In a call to Sherwood he told me he designed his bikes to be fun and didn't worry about the other stuff. Interestingly enough, he wasn't big on coil shocks but the ride was indeed fun.

    In contrast, the 5-spot is a much better climber but it's not as plush on the downhill. I would describe it as more nimble, firm, and it goes where you point it. Both are stiff bikes. Pedal feedback on the 5-spot is not noticeable with 2x10 unless I'm running a 24t chainring. Rear shock is either a Pushed Monarch Plus or MX tune coil. Would I go back to Ventana? Probably not but the bikes are beautiful and the customer support, like Turner, is the best.

    Also, to echo Stripes comment regarding Pivot I didn't like the implementation on the Mach5. Felt way too much like a xc race bike but I haven't tried a Firebird or the 5.7. I rode an Ibis Mojo SL for a day and I would consider that or the HD if I was still in the market for another DW-link bike. Very interesting, how they are all so different.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

  42. #42
    El CicloPath!!!!!!!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    247
    I wish I had the CCDB, but that bugger is EXPENSIVE!!!!!

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: OldHouseMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,491
    I ride an X-5 and have never ridden a DW, VPP, Maestro or any mini link type bike for that matter. In the group I ride with, I'm usually in the front or just off the front on the DH and just off the front on the climbs. Would a mini link get me to the front of the pack and keep me there?

    Kind of joking, but would it make a difference?
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  44. #44
    The Bubble Wrap Hysteria
    Reputation: mtnbiker4life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,537
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    I kind of walked into this forum and took a huge #2 on the sofa. Sorry about that guys.
    I don't think so, You stated it an honest talk about the differences in suspension designs. A lot of good experience posted here. I too had a 2007 Ciclon.........

    .

  45. #45
    Oji
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    129
    I'm really happy this discussion has taken off and I wish there was more of this kind of dialogue on the forums. Regardless, given that I'm the one who asked the leading question, I think it's fair to report that I have officially ordered a new 27.5" Turner Flux. This is largely a matter of my outstanding experience with the folks at Turner and my love of the DW link suspension. I will also say that I intend to immediately replace the Fox CTD Evo shock with a tuned Monarch RT3 that I've ordered for the task from Suspension Experts in Asheville, NC. I liked the Spot with an RP23 ok, but my experience with it echoes those cited here. True love came in the form of a Pushed RT3 on the Spot, so I'm going that way on the Flux immediately. I'm migrating parts off the Spot, including a Pushed 2010 Fox 32 float 140mm 26" fork with straight steerer tube that I've been running a Pacenti 27.5" TL28 rim and Neo Moto on for a couple of years. The A-C is 510mm on that fork as it is on the 120mm 27.5" fork that is OEM on the new Flux, so rather than possibly go backwards on performance, I've ordered the frame only and will keep the fork I like right now.

    Thanks to all of you for the frank comments, both publicly here, in PMs, or on the phone. It's apparent that both brands make great bikes and we all have our own experiences and ideas about what works or doesn't work for us individually. As it should be.

    Get out and ride.

    Cliff

  46. #46
    Crazed Country Rebel
    Reputation: iheartbicycles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    6,131
    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    So question for you since I don't get suspension designs (again, this is what I feel):
    Most suspensions seem to be designed around the middle ring (32T). I found running a 30T 1x10 setup on the Ventana was the best to get rid of the bounce. Does running larger rings also impact the amount of chain growth a DW link gets?

    It seems to be the case, because running that same configuration (30T front, 11-36 rear) on both the Mojo and the Ventana seemed to get rid of the bounce on the Ventana, and I've never felt the chain growth on my Mojo with that configuration.

    If I ran a 28T on the Ventana, I felt like all it wanted to do was bounce and I was back to playing stupid suspension tricks (shimmed shock, lots of compression, etc). The 28T felt better on my knees/hips, but it was misery on the Ventana for uphill ride quality (bounce). Forget riding it in the 32/22 double I had: it was just too much bounce and I was tiring myself out fighting the bike (masher, not a spinner, and it's not changing anytime soon).

    I run a 38/26 double now on the HD and I still do not get any noticable-to-me chain growth. And I can climb in it without any propedal being engaged.

    It seems that Shimano and SRAM get this, because they've all but done away with the 22T and 24T granny gear to get rid of these type of characteristics (supposedly better pedaling, but I can't find a 24T granny gear for a Shimano double and that would be better than a 26T for me). Note I haven't tried the XX1 or X01 to know how those are configured; I'm talking strictly from the double rings.
    Yah, generally speaking - most suspension systems are optimized for the middle ring. The older generation Ventana's werent really optimized for anything. The pivot was lower than a 22t granny. So even in the granny gear, the older ventanas still squated a whole lot.

    They've since raised the pivot quite a bit -so you're going to get some good antisquat in the granny gear (if you run one) and decent antisquat in the middle ring.

    If mountain bikers decide that 3 rings up front isnt necessary, designing good pedallin suspension bikes will become simpler - and this will eventually allow us to focus on other things, like suspension activity under braking for example.

    I stil like my granny gear, though for things like $2 hill and the climb up to Star Lake.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Mike Vandeman Sucks Dong

  47. #47
    AOK
    AOK is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: AOK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,879

    DW link comparison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porch View Post
    My .02: forget about BB height. You will notice more pedal strikes for the first few rides, and once you adapt the only thing you'll notice is how much better your bike handles.
    Well said and very true, IMO.

  48. #48
    Keep on Rockin...
    Reputation: Miker J's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    4,253
    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Yah, generally speaking - most suspension systems are optimized for the middle ring. The older generation Ventana's werent really optimized for anything. The pivot was lower than a 22t granny. So even in the granny gear, the older ventanas still squated a whole lot.

    They've since raised the pivot quite a bit -so you're going to get some good antisquat in the granny gear (if you run one) and decent antisquat in the middle ring.

    If mountain bikers decide that 3 rings up front isnt necessary, designing good pedallin suspension bikes will become simpler - and this will eventually allow us to focus on other things, like suspension activity under braking for example.

    I stil like my granny gear, though for things like $2 hill and the climb up to Star Lake.
    Great thread. I'm tuning in.

    Are the DW link designs also tuned into, or affected by, differing chain rings (differing chain angles)? I suspect so. Chris Cocallis makes a great point in an interview where he alluded to how proper suspension function is somewhat dependent on the chain moving from ring to ring. When the trail goes up, riders move to the granny, which changes the chain angle and will typically induce an increased measure of anti-squat.

    CCDB... I was stoked to hear CC has added an "on the fly" lever to their DB, that allow you to bump up the LSC. A big plus for SP and FSR designs. What I've found however is that on many shocks that do this the amount of LSC is way overkill. I spoke to CC and the response I got was along the lines of the LSC knob, when thrown, will radically increase the amount of LSC on the system...

    ...Too bad. Unless you've got a really bad suspension design, you only need a slight increase in LSC to dial out squat on climbs !!! Like the old RP3s I liked how one could "pre-dial" the amount of increased compression added when you flipped the lever.


    I am baffled by how many shock designs, both fork and rear, implement a "Trail" or "Climb" setting that adds so much LSC or "thresh hold" you go so far beyond dialing out squat - you also dial out the suspension!

    Kind of "too much of a good thing" affair.


    IMO, what would really get me to pull the trigger on a Ventana would be a CCDB that did allow you to pre-dial two (or three) different LSC presets. Then, throw in a bar mounted, on the fly lever - yes, that would be the ticket.

    For riders where there are extended uphills and downhills I think it is a different game - compared to riders that are forced to deal with rapid succession, steep, chunky ups and downs.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    I ride an X-5 and have never ridden a DW, VPP, Maestro or any mini link type bike for that matter. In the group I ride with, I'm usually in the front or just off the front on the DH and just off the front on the climbs. Would a mini link get me to the front of the pack and keep me there?

    Kind of joking, but would it make a difference?
    OHM, When I went from my Ciclon to my Spot I did get faster all around, up and down, cornering, etc, and was hitting low speed steep features down with much more confidence. The light tune on the shock really helped in the low speed tech sections, reduced that OTB feeling with shock not extending or stiffening when braking, and opened up new lines for my riding. I progressed a lot on the Ciclon but when I moved to the Spot my riding advanced as a faster pace. I don't see how you couldn't go faster on a Burner on the DH with that geometry and larger wheelsize compared to the older X5. And on the climbs you'd be more efficient or at least not reaching for a propedal lever and you'll use less body english to keep the front down saving energy. The Ciclon did make me really strong since though you have to be on point when things get steep.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rockman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    5,429
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    And on the climbs you'd be more efficient or at least not reaching for a propedal lever and you'll use less body english to keep the front down saving energy. The Ciclon did make me really strong since though you have to be on point when things get steep.
    That's true. On my Ciclon I used an adjustable U-turn Pike and would lower it to 120mm or so to keep it from wandering on anything steep. I had no problem running a 170 mm Lyrik on the 2010 Spot but changed it out to 160 mm because it felt a bit better balanced.
    "Fart in a paper bag, after eating the #17 plate from filibertos. STRAVA!" M77Ranger.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 07-20-2013, 08:06 AM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-01-2012, 04:55 AM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-09-2011, 05:34 AM
  4. HALF link link needed ,using 9spd sram geared chain
    By zippy895 in forum Singlespeed
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-05-2011, 08:25 PM
  5. Gusset S-link half link
    By wv_bob in forum Singlespeed
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-20-2011, 09:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •