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  1. #26
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    While I appreciate your love of your bike, and that's great, but simply writing it off as "a single pivot" is a bit short sided. I've spent limited time on new ones but it's a noticeable refinement. As for your conjecture of losing something on descending, no, not at all. The effeciency was gained by creating enough anti-squat at a point in the travel that mattered the most after that it acts like the previous gens active travel. After all my years on V's I'm too spoiled by active travel to go part time suspension!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  2. #27
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    Maybe someone here could inform me of why the out right hate on single pivot designed bikes. I was in my LBS last week and we were checking out the new Moots FS bike when the bike wrench chimes in that it is a $3000 Kona frame. I get it that not all frames are created equal. If single pivot was so out dated then why are companies like Marin coming out with a new line of bikes that are single pivot? I love my single pivot Zeus but I am also a weirdo.
    "Set the gearshift for the high gear of your soul".

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    While I appreciate your love of your bike, and that's great, but simply writing it off as "a single pivot" is a bit short sided. I've spent limited time on new ones but it's a noticeable refinement. As for your conjecture of losing something on descending, no, not at all. The effeciency was gained by creating enough anti-squat at a point in the travel that mattered the most after that it acts like the previous gens active travel. After all my years on V's I'm too spoiled by active travel to go part time suspension!
    Ride a good DW bike and you'll change -- but I get where you're coming from Aaron. We all ride what works for us. They're just bikes after all.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by procos View Post
    Does it work in the reverse? Meaning if you like Ventana suspension will you not like DW? I only ask because I own a Ventana El Bastardo and it is my first FS bike. I am really liking the look and geo of the new Giant Anthem Advanced 27.5". The Maestro is supposed to be similar to the DW link. Not sure I can find one to demo so am trying to find out as much as I can about the Anthem before making a purchase. I also like the Ibis HDR 650B but it is too heavy for my liking,. My Bastardo only weighs 26 lbs and I have been seeing weights on the HDR and they are all in the 28-29 range. So not really interested in getting a bike heavier than the one I already own.

    I really like the Bastardo on the trail but where I ride there are a lot of aggressive climbs that are short but somewhat step and technical. I'd like a bike that climbs a tad better than my Bastardo. My El Padrino fits the bill for that but I am 45 when I get done doing a singletrack ride on my El Padrino my body feels beat up.
    No, you will like the DW! There's a short transition period when climbing technical stuff but once you adapt it's awesome - the traction is just stupid good especially on loose steep climbs. You may be disappointed in the difference in frame stiffness going to the Anthem from a Ventana though. Something like the Burner or new 650b Flux will give you all the stiffness or more of the Ventana plus the great pedaling and plush ride down with never touching the shock (made in USA too). It's a beautiful thing to setup your bike to excel on the downs with zero compromise on the climbs. That's what sold me on the DW platform and the speeds you'll hit on the DH will surprise you because the braking so active and predictable. Ventana's are known for good handling on the downs too but you will have to compromise somewhere.

  5. #30
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    For me? Yes, I'm so used to active suspension that every test ride I've done on DW/VPP/Maestro etc I can feel the pedal feed back, especially climbing on tech. Between those designs though, Maestro to me was the most active/least noticeable.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    Ride a good DW bike and you'll change -- but I get where you're coming from Aaron. We all ride what works for us. They're just bikes after all.
    Well, I thought I did, they were Demo's from Turner and Pivot at Sea Otter! . (2011) But your second point, exactly, Ride what works for ya!
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 08-20-2013 at 03:08 PM. Reason: wrong year of Sea Otter
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phishin Paul View Post
    Maybe someone here could inform me of why the out right hate on single pivot designed bikes. I was in my LBS last week and we were checking out the new Moots FS bike when the bike wrench chimes in that it is a $3000 Kona frame. I get it that not all frames are created equal. If single pivot was so out dated then why are companies like Marin coming out with a new line of bikes that are single pivot? I love my single pivot Zeus but I am also a weirdo.
    No single pivot hate, just honest differences in the designs that have been observed. That's what this thread is for.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    Ride a good DW bike and you'll change -- but I get where you're coming from Aaron. We all ride what works for us. They're just bikes after all.
    LncNuvue: did you ride the Mojo too? I'm curious to how it feels compared to the Turner DW link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    Well, I thought I did, they were Demo's from Turner and Pivot at Sea Otter! . (2011) But your second point, exactly, Ride what works for ya!
    Did you try the Ibis Mojo SL, HD, or Ripley? The Ibis DW link works really differently than the Pivot (can't say about the Turners), that it feels surprisingly plush on the downhills.

    The biggest thing I've noticed about the bikes is the Ventana really needs to get the low speed compression pretty locked down to not bob on the climbs for me (masher, not a spinner), but the Mojo needs to have the rebound damping really locked down. Either way, both feel pretty decent to me.

    It's more the overall package including the suspension implementation, not just the suspension design.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    For me? Yes, I'm so used to active suspension that every test ride I've done on DW/VPP/Maestro etc I can feel the pedal feed back, especially climbing on tech. Between those designs though, Maestro to me was the most active/least noticeable.
    What do you mean by pedal feedback? I just got back into mountain biking a few years ago after a 20 year layoff. I came from riding a Klein Pinnacle back in the early '90's. When I jumped back into mountain biking my buddy recommended Ventana and I first bought the Padrino and still love it for my singletrack rides that aren't super rocky or bumpy. And then bought the Bastardo for the more technical and bumpy rides. Don't get me wrong I love my Bastardo but am very interested in getting a carbon FS 27.5" and can get a screaming deal on the Giant Anthem Advance 1. But want to do my homework before taking the plunge. I live in Michigan and don't need anymore than 4' of travel. As a matter of fact my Bastardo was 5.5" and I then traded shocks and rockers with Jmac to make it 4" and beat my best time on a 10 mile loop by a lot.

    Thanks,

    Chuck

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    No single pivot hate, just honest differences in the designs that have been observed. That's what this thread is for.
    I remember when you had a 2007 El Ciclon. I too had that frame. When making comparisons it should be with the newly designed V frames unless we are going to compare my new Zeus to a 2007 Five Spot.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    LncNuvue: did you ride the Mojo too? I'm curious to how it feels compared to the Turner DW link.

    Did you try the Ibis Mojo SL, HD, or Ripley? The Ibis DW link works really differently than the Pivot (can't say about the Turners), that it feels surprisingly plush on the downhills.

    The biggest thing I've noticed about the bikes is the Ventana really needs to get the low speed compression pretty locked down to not bob on the climbs for me (masher, not a spinner), but the Mojo needs to have the rebound damping really locked down. Either way, both feel pretty decent to me.

    It's more the overall package including the suspension implementation, not just the suspension design.
    I have not ridden the HD but have friends on the them who like it, both coil and air setups. The suspension curve on the HD is the closest DW curve to the 5 Spot with the Spot being slightly more plush so the rear end is going to behave very similar. That's from the head dude at Push, FWIW.

    I get the low speed compression thing. I tried out a Knolly Endo thinking I could do it and could not accept the trade offs in suspension setup to get that bike to pedal well. The descending took a major dump once I got it pedaling in an acceptable manner -- and still not pedaling as well as the Spot because there was more low speed platform on the shock causing the rear wheel to break loose on climbs.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phishin Paul View Post
    I remember when you had a 2007 El Ciclon. I too had that frame. When making comparisons it should be with the newly designed V frames unless we are going to compare my new Zeus to a 2007 Five Spot.
    I recently rode/owned a Knolly Endo which I'm sure is a better linkage than V's new design. See my response to Stripes in this thread.

    I kind of walked into this forum and took a huge #2 on the sofa. Sorry about that guys.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phishin Paul View Post
    Maybe someone here could inform me of why the out right hate on single pivot designed bikes. I was in my LBS last week and we were checking out the new Moots FS bike when the bike wrench chimes in that it is a $3000 Kona frame. I get it that not all frames are created equal. If single pivot was so out dated then why are companies like Marin coming out with a new line of bikes that are single pivot? I love my single pivot Zeus but I am also a weirdo.
    Not hating on the single pivot at all. I had Ventanas for almost 10 years.

    If both suspensions are dialed correctly, then they both feel good to me on both the up and down. I've ridden single pivots/FSR/DW Link I like, and single pivots/FSR/DW link I don't. It's the overall bike, not just the suspension design. And truthfully, both the new Ciclon and the Mojo HD suck with the Fox CTD. And the new Ciclon was great with the Monarch Plus and the CCDB, and I'm sure the HD will feel much better with a Monarch Plus (the CCDB doesn't fit a small frame). There's so much more than just the "single pivot" or "DW link."

    The part that cracks me up is people buy a new bike with a different suspension design to make better climbers/descenders/faster/etc. It doesn't do a thing: it's ultimately whether or not you're enjoying a particular bike or not.

    If you love your Zeus, great ride it That's what it's all about. I'm digging my Mojo HD right now, so I'm going to ride that.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden boy View Post
    I know this is the Ventana forum, but I have to defend Pivot. I can't understand where you're coming from at all. Pivot's bikes feel plenty plush to me. Perhaps the suspension wasn't set up correctly for you?

    I'm following this thread because I really appreciate what Ventana does and I would love to support them. That said, I love the feel of my DW-link Pivot, especially the pedaling platform. Wish I could demo a Ventana to see how they ride. I can't buy a FS bike on faith.
    I think people get hung up on the Mach 5, which was more xc than plush. I demoed that bike for 2 days and so wanted to love it but it was just harsh. Although a dw linked bike, it felt nothing like a Turner 5 spot, which I ended up buying. I have heard that the new 5.7 is much better
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by procos View Post
    What do you mean by pedal feedback? I just got back into mountain biking a few years ago after a 20 year layoff. I came from riding a Klein Pinnacle back in the early '90's. When I jumped back into mountain biking my buddy recommended Ventana and I first bought the Padrino and still love it for my singletrack rides that aren't super rocky or bumpy. And then bought the Bastardo for the more technical and bumpy rides. Don't get me wrong I love my Bastardo but am very interested in getting a carbon FS 27.5" and can get a screaming deal on the Giant Anthem Advance 1. But want to do my homework before taking the plunge. I live in Michigan and don't need anymore than 4' of travel. As a matter of fact my Bastardo was 5.5" and I then traded shocks and rockers with Jmac to make it 4" and beat my best time on a 10 mile loop by a lot.

    Thanks,

    Chuck
    Chuck, pedal kickback or feedback is when you're pedaling over an obstacle or feature and the rear wheel wants to stop or reverse the pedals. It's usually due to chain growth when the suspension compresses. The older VPP designs suffered pretty badly from this. The DW Link on my Spot has minimal to no pedal kickback or feedback. To ever feel it you would need to be in the granny ring and very deep in the travel while hitting an object just the right way.

    Maybe consider 3 other bikes along with that Anthem: new Turner Flux, Santa Cruz Solo and Ventana Alpino. All are 650b.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    the great pedaling and plush ride down with never touching the shock (made in USA too). It's a beautiful thing to setup your bike to excel on the downs with zero compromise on the climbs.
    This is key. With the DW link, you set up your suspension for DH performance - because you don't have to mess with it, to get great climbing.

    in my case I had a Push shock custom built with a DH damper - for my flux. And I run it with the most sag recommended (30%).

    You're not going to be able to do this with the Ventana. I'm sure they've improved wit the new pivot position - which puts them about where Turner was when they launched TNT, back in 2006.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Chad at Redbarn as JC suggested is definitely a good idea. There are prolly some others too.

    I can give you a comparison to an Ibis Mojo HD (DW link) and a Ventana Ciclon and X-5s if you want. They're both 26", but I can give you the differences I feel between the suspension designs.

    The Ventana is a much more active suspension (single pivot), and you'll want to test ride it to get a feel. Note that not all single pivots are created equal, just as the DW links are not all created equal.

    The Ventana single pivot feels a lot like what a lot of people like about BMWs: they want to feel the road (in this case the trail). You'll feel every little thing, and the cornering for it is pretty awesome.

    The corners and the climbing are where I notice the difference: the Ventanas will sink the corners where the Ibis tends to rise a bit (the anti-squat), but the Ibis is definitely a better climber for someone like me who mashes. And in NorCal, we do a lot of climbing.

    The other thing about the DW link is it tends to sink into the suspension quicker so you're more likely to strike pedals. I'm striking the pedals more on my HD than I ever did on the Ciclon. It might be a BB height, but I don't know enough about suspension dynamics to tell you.

    I've also test rode the Pivots, and I don't like the feel of their bikes at all. You should ask on the Turner forum too.. there's definitely overlap between brands. And test ride where you can. Not all of the same sizes are created equally either.
    It doesn't appear you understand the DW link or antisquat. Unless you're pedaling through corners, antisquat isn't going to kick in.

    DW links are LESS likely to sag while pedaling - so if you're hitting your pedals its most likely your technique.

    Being that DW doesn't need any platform damping to pedal well - it's actually going to be more active than a single pivot.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    It doesn't appear you understand the DW link or antisquat. Unless you're pedaling through corners, antisquat isn't going to kick in.

    DW links are LESS likely to sag while pedaling - so if you're hitting your pedals its most likely your technique.

    Being that DW doesn't need any platform damping to pedal well - it's actually going to be more active than a single pivot.
    Nope, I don't and I really don't care. What I care about is how good the bike feels when I ride it.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Nope, I don't and I really don't care. What I care about is how good the bike feels when I ride it.
    sweet
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by twangcat View Post
    I've been riding a Turner 5.Spot for the past 4 years and really like the DW link suspension. I've had the bike rigged with a 650b front wheel for over a year, and have decided I want to go full 650b. Having ridden a 140 mm travel frame for a while, I don't think I really need all that travel and the idea of something a touch more upright and lighter is also appealing. Hence, I'm looking at the newly released 120-125 mm 650b frames that are appearing on the market now. The New Turner Flux would be ideal but for the 12.8" BB height. This is insanely low for my style of riding and somewhat frequent visits to rocky trails. I'd prefer something more in the 13.25" range. Thus the Alpino is attractive in that regard.

    I'm reluctant to move away from the DW link suspension and I've never ridden a Ventana. I know this is likely the wrong place to be asking because everyone here is totally sold on their Ventana bikes (as it should be!), but if anyone has direct experience with both a Ventana and a DW link Turner, I'd be grateful for an honest appraisal of the suspension dynamics, especially with regard to pedal bob and climbing.

    Thanks for any information or opinions.
    You can own lots of different bikes, and still not understand how they work.

    I would recommend you call and talk to Dave Turner. He has built bikes with these systems - and he's going to give you honest feedback and answers.

    RE the low bottom bracket - ask him about that. He has good reasoning. DW's don't squat as much under pedaling as other bikes - so you can run lower bb's and get away with it.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    sweet
    Thanks Everyone here all has their panties in a wad about either type of suspension (don't hate on Pivot, don't hate on the single pivot), and I'm not hating on either.

    The reason why the Ibis trumped the Ventana for me is overall ride feel. Shorter bike, more playful, and the climbs don't sap me. Whether or not anyone understand the suspension dynamics is irrelevant: just ride what you like.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by procos View Post
    What do you mean by pedal feedback? I just got back into mountain biking a few years ago after a 20 year layoff. I came from riding a Klein Pinnacle back in the early '90's. When I jumped back into mountain biking my buddy recommended Ventana and I first bought the Padrino and still love it for my singletrack rides that aren't super rocky or bumpy. And then bought the Bastardo for the more technical and bumpy rides. Don't get me wrong I love my Bastardo but am very interested in getting a carbon FS 27.5" and can get a screaming deal on the Giant Anthem Advance 1. But want to do my homework before taking the plunge. I live in Michigan and don't need anymore than 4' of travel. As a matter of fact my Bastardo was 5.5" and I then traded shocks and rockers with Jmac to make it 4" and beat my best time on a 10 mile loop by a lot.

    Thanks,

    Chuck
    As Lance described it, pedal feedback is the tugging sensation from the tension forces on the chain as the suspension compresses. The greater the chain growth designed into the suspension and WHERE the chaingrowth takes place in the travel, the more likely to feel it. Original VPP was terrible at this, you could feel it almost in any situation as they had massive amounts of chain growth. DW uses less chain growth than the original VPP about the same as VPP2. For me, a bigger guy (+220) I can feel it in all three systems when climbing. Maestro felt like a tough spot in my pedal stroke, the Pivot felt like a strong tug on the pedals backwards, the Spot felt in between. (For understanding, I rode the short course at Sea Otter on all three so same terrain, same conditions).The only IBIS I've ridden was the original also at SO and the short couse but a few years early, I could make the upper seatstay yolks hit the seat tube due to flex. (This was prior to the "lopes link" and well before the HD came out though)I was distracted by itand I didn't really pay attention to how it rode. Every year I go to SO ride a few new bikes and see what's out there. I keep going back to V because I haven't been wowed by anything out there enough to change. Heck, I'm so old school, I'm still on the OLD V design and like it. Others experiences will vary of course.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    You can own lots of different bikes, and still not understand how they work.

    I would recommend you call and talk to Dave Turner. He has built bikes with these systems - and he's going to give you honest feedback and answers.

    RE the low bottom bracket - ask him about that. He has good reasoning. DW's don't squat as much under pedaling as other bikes - so you can run lower bb's and get away with it.
    So question for you since I don't get suspension designs (again, this is what I feel):
    Most suspensions seem to be designed around the middle ring (32T). I found running a 30T 1x10 setup on the Ventana was the best to get rid of the bounce. Does running larger rings also impact the amount of chain growth a DW link gets?

    It seems to be the case, because running that same configuration (30T front, 11-36 rear) on both the Mojo and the Ventana seemed to get rid of the bounce on the Ventana, and I've never felt the chain growth on my Mojo with that configuration.

    If I ran a 28T on the Ventana, I felt like all it wanted to do was bounce and I was back to playing stupid suspension tricks (shimmed shock, lots of compression, etc). The 28T felt better on my knees/hips, but it was misery on the Ventana for uphill ride quality (bounce). Forget riding it in the 32/22 double I had: it was just too much bounce and I was tiring myself out fighting the bike (masher, not a spinner, and it's not changing anytime soon).

    I run a 38/26 double now on the HD and I still do not get any noticable-to-me chain growth. And I can climb in it without any propedal being engaged.

    It seems that Shimano and SRAM get this, because they've all but done away with the 22T and 24T granny gear to get rid of these type of characteristics (supposedly better pedaling, but I can't find a 24T granny gear for a Shimano double and that would be better than a 26T for me). Note I haven't tried the XX1 or X01 to know how those are configured; I'm talking strictly from the double rings.
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  24. #49
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    My .02: forget about BB height. You will notice more pedal strikes for the first few rides, and once you adapt the only thing you'll notice is how much better your bike handles.
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  25. #50
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    Here's my progression from the mid 90's...

    GT Pantera
    Lightspeed/Amp Reasearch
    Cannondale Super V
    Foes LTS
    Turner RFX
    Foes Slammer
    ..........................fast forward to 2012

    2012 Santa Cruz Blur LT med
    2011 Turner Flux DW med...then a large
    Ventana 2010 El Ciclon Path geo


    Of all the bikes I've actually owned and ridden extensively, the one I like overall the best is the Ventana. For me, once I got everything dialed in, it rides, feels, and does everything the best. Irregardless of the suspension design, for me, it has been the best climber, the best descender, the best on single track, the best on technical climbs, the best high speed sweeper, the best steep descender. And like Stripes said, its the overall bike, not just the suspension design.

    I do really like the Turners. I think of all the DW's I like them the best. Havent tried an Ibis, but I'm sure that it's a sweet bike too. But The Turners just didnt feel or fit me. They didn't feel as good on the trail as I do on the Ventana. I know a lot of things are subjective, but that's just how it is with me.

    I've been looking at other bikes too. For Downhilling, I'm really liking the Giants..the Glory, and the offerings from Canfield, Knolly, and Banshee look really cool.

    But for the places I ride, weight consideration, and overall use, I like my Ventana the most. It's a strong bike, stiff, great handling. Not too heavy....I'm sure wee all feel that way or similar about the other bikes as well.
    Last edited by Fachiro1; 08-28-2013 at 10:21 AM.

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