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Thread: Back in Bidness

  1. #1
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    Back in Bidness

    What does one do when one sees a poor abandoned front triangle like this all alone on Ebay?



    And one just happens to have this lying around not in use:



    And, one has decided that the front triangle of the above frame is too big, and it will probably not get ridden, and it is not worth enough (being a used custom frame from a niche brand) to sell.

    What if I told you that the green frame, while a tad tight in the top tube, has enough seat tube to get the right saddle height with a 410mm post, and still have 4 inches of post in the frame?



    Oh yeah....no one is bidding on it either...since it needs a shock, rockers, and entire rear triangle.

    Doesn't suck that it is a cool custom lowrider green (Bikezilla green as well!)



    Also doesn't suck that one is aware that there are nearly enough parts sitting in boxes or on other donor bikes to nearly build the thing complete.



    Especially doesn't suck when one realizes there is enough dough in the Paypal (Playpal?) account from previous sell offs to cover the purchase without dipping in to the household finances.

    It's a no brainer, this is about as close to a free bike as one gets.



    The Curtlo is dead. Long live the Capitan!

    Ideally, I should be on a 19" frame, but when I did the math, I found the top tube is 1.5 inches shorter than the Curtlo, one inch shorter than the Lunchbox, and 0.8 inches shorter than the Comandante. I currently run a 50mm stem on the Box, 70mm on the Comandante. The cockpit should not feel cramped at all for me with a 90mm stem on it.

    It's worth a try. My only concern fit wise is possible toe overlap.

    The fork will be a White Bros TA 100mm Fluid fork from the Comandante (now flying rigid), Which will also donate wheels (King/Arch) since I run SS on a geared hub with spacers. Another set of QR wheels goes on the Comandante (note to self only build with convertable front hubs in the future). The initial plan was to run it at 4" travel, but the Pushed Float I had in the box is set up for 5" travel, so I will live with it there for now. As far as I can tell, I only need a headset and a Sram rear derailleur and I am in bidness.

    I will be interested to see how the ride compares to the Curtlo. I honestly don't think it can touch the Lunchbox for most situations, but I see it as having a different, more XCish purpose (like I ride enough to really need more than one bike). It's pretty clear that Sherwood overbuilt this bike, so it should more than handle what I will give it. Pity I don't have second F135 fork around to give it a back to back test with the Lenz.

    Anyway, nice to have another Ventana FS bike in the garage.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  2. #2
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Nice! I always hated that Curtlo! Even uglier than the Lenz

  3. #3
    No, that's not phonetic
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    Cool score. I love doing that stuff. There are occasional diamonds in the rough to discover out there.

    I am curious though, how can the Curtlo be too big if it's custom for gOD's sake?? (I hope I got the capitalization right for Fo).
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

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    Awesome catch!

    congrats!

  5. #5
    The Bubble Wrap Hysteria
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    Great score. WTF is a lunchbox? Did I miss something......or is this a sick and twisted name for ????????

    Thanks crisillo..........I'm not really hip on all the 29er brands out there.
    Last edited by mtnbiker4life; 12-11-2007 at 06:52 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    Great score. WTF is a lunchbox? Did I miss something......or is this a sick and twisted name for ????????
    Lenz LunchBox


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    Nice! I always hated that Curtlo! Even uglier than the Lenz
    True Dat!
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  8. #8
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    That is awesome. I looooove that Low Rider Green.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Cool score. I love doing that stuff. There are occasional diamonds in the rough to discover out there.
    I felt very Tscheezyish moving rear triangles around and all. Truly, the power was intoxicating.

    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    I am curious though, how can the Curtlo be too big if it's custom for gOD's sake?? (I hope I got the capitalization right for Fo).
    Long story. The builder built based on my feedback. Which was based on 29" hardtails, a demo week on a Capitan, lots of FS time on little wheels, and feedback from folks with lots more time than me on FS 29"ers. Essentially he built me a bike with geometry very similar to a large Sultan, but with the steering feel (trail) of a 6-Pack. For my size (6'1"), it should have been perfect. Long ETT, short stem which seems to be all the rage, and which most folks here love.

    The bike was confidence inspiring, capable in all conditions and unflappable at speed, but I realized I really like to throw a bike around, and that is a great part of the appeal of riding to me. Given the wheelbase, and long stays, it just was not amenable to my style of riding. It got me where I wanted to go, but was more of a tool than an object of fun.

    Not the builder's fault. I got what I asked for. I just didn't know what I wanted at the time I guess. Big wheels also handle differently. You don't need all that TT to get stability. The Curtlo was biased too much towards stability.

    In the mean time, I also scored a "size too small" Comandante off the Bay and found I really, really liked the tiny cockpit and over the course of a year kept shrinking it until I literally barely avoid knee slaps on the bars while climbing, and I love it.

    My riding has evolved, and the Curtlo was a snapshot of what I thought I liked at the time. I learned a lot through the process, and essentially have an El Cap plus that triangle now, for what it would have cost just to get the El Cap in the first place. Free edumacation so to speak.

    I may dislike this El Cap as well. If I do, I think I can point squarely at the long stays as the culprit.

    It will have a challenge to displace my love for this homely baby, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

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    Sweet! Always nice to put together a frankenbike, but only a GOOD one! lol
    Great looking, too. Enjoy!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    Thanks crisillo..........I'm not really hip on all the 29er brands out there.


  12. #12
    jrm
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    So is the El Cap a 17" or 21"

    [



    what a great find..

  13. #13
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    It is a 17"
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  14. #14
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    Cool score. I love doing that stuff. There are occasional diamonds in the rough to discover out there.

    I am curious though, how can the Curtlo be too big if it's custom for gOD's sake?? (I hope I got the capitalization right for Fo).
    and i bet you spell Christmas as Xmas you sinner!

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    Enjoy it, I know I did. Now I just have to suffer along with my El Rey.

  16. #16
    In FTF We Trust
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    I saw that front triangle and excersized great restraint in not buying it. I have no reason to replace my Vicious Cycles Groover 29er but the pull of an El Rey is pretty friggin strong.
    "I'll disintegrate over time if I expect my body to try to keep up with my mind" -BM

    Race, Rocks or Road...Just Ride

  17. #17
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    Update




    Still awaiting a few drivetrain parts, but all in all looking good especially for a "parts box" build. Just rolling and bouncing in the driveway, it feels way more agile than the Curtlo (it should be, the Wheelbase is nearly 3 inches less). I barely get some toe overlap buzz if I position the shoe just right.

    The WB fork is just back from the factory where they pressed in a longer steerer, and swapped the IMV guts for Fluid guts. It feels way, way more plush.

    The fork and wheel donor seems to have survived the operation unscathed.

    Last edited by Enel; 12-16-2007 at 09:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

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    If you find it's too small, let me know... I was interested in getting one too!

  19. #19
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    That green is a great looking color. Always nice to see a sucessful outcome on a frankenbiking experiment.

    Did you ever post up a ride report on the Lunchbox (on the 29er forum)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Drivel
    Did you ever post up a ride report on the Lunchbox (on the 29er forum)?
    Yes. Suffice it to say it is the best bike (for me) that I have ever ridden. Lots of fun, no significant weak points (other than style according to Fo and Squeak, but consider the source).

    PS: The green, like most Ventana finishes is unbelievable in sunlight!
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  21. #21
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    Just curious, what is your inseam measurment that a 17" and 410mm Post get's you the right seat height?

    Just curious.

    -A
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    Just curious, what is your inseam measurment that a 17" and 410mm Post get's you the right seat height?

    My "biking" inseam in socks is 36.75" Probably more like 37" with shoes, etc. My saddle likes to be 31.5-32" above the center of the BB.

    Since I am only 6'1", this means I am built like a frog. This is another reason I like my top tubes on the short side for my height.

    410 post = 16.1" inches plus 17.4" for the seat tube is roughly 33.5 inches. Add roughly 2 inches for the height from the rails to top of saddle, subtract 31.5" for saddle height and you end up with roughly 4 inches in frame. Should be more than enough. It is below the bottom of the TT, ST intersection. If I like the bike and go with a gravity dropper, they make them up to 420mm if needed.
    Last edited by Enel; 12-17-2007 at 03:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  23. #23
    change is good
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    I'm 5'11" with a 35+ inseam and a wide wing span

    I'm really interested in how your experiment turns out. My custom road bike has a monster head tube and slight toe overlap. It fits perfectly. My Ventanas are 21/19s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon
    21/19s.
    Is the first number the seat tube, and the second the top tube or vice versa?

    If so, I would be pretty happy on a 21" ST frame with the ETT of a 19" frame. Or in this case, a 17/17.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  25. #25
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    Wow, that explains a lot about your need for shorter cockpits.
    Still one question, I just measured my bikes, and they sit @ 31" from Seat height to BB, so you must bend your legs more than I do while pedaling?

    I'm 6' with a 33" inseam BTW. Interesting, you are a classic example of how unless you go custom, there is no way for any manufacturer to be able to cover EVERY rider out there.

    Irregardless enjoy the new ride.
    Last edited by Ciclistagonzo; 12-19-2007 at 12:14 PM.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enel
    Since I am only 6'1", this means I am built like a frog. This is another reason I like my top tubes on the short side for my height.
    You and me both. I 'm personally very happy that Ventana does not spec longer TT's (like other mfg's.) on their frames.

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    The first number is for a 21in ST frame, second for 19in frame ETT length.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    I'm 6' with a 33" inseam BTW. Interesting, you are a classic example of how unless you go custom, there is no way for any manufacturer to be able to cover EVER rider out there.
    Is that your pant inseam (because I wear 34" pants) or your biking inseam (measured from the floor to the top of a book in your crotch with legs 10" or so apart).
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  29. #29
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    Cycling.
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  30. #30
    err, 27.5+
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    Nice enel

    I thought I noticed an X frame in a garage shot not too long ago. I just shrugged it off and figured nobody offered you fair market on that Curtlo. At 240lb I thought about it, but the flex comments would have only been magnified under me
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

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    First Ride

    Got out for a nice relaxing ride on slightly muddy trails. This is my typical "new bike", or "changed something and want to test it" ride.

    Riding it 5" rear, 4" front cuz I was too lazy to mess with it.

    Fit: Unbelievably, I felt a little too stretched out. Time to get out the 80mm stem and non-setback post.

    Suspension: Super plush. Sag checked out okay, but I blew through the rear too easily, so I needed to firm it up, but forgot the shock pump. So yeah, super plush.

    Fork: Unbelievable that this is the same chassis I sent to White Bros a couple weeks ago for a damper change. Night and day, way better, uber plush, tracks great. For anyone on the fence, the new Fluid forks ride great. The prior IMV damper sucked for me and I am glad I ditched it. Felt like a lot more than 100mm.

    Frame: Sorry to say this folks, but I think my Lenz is stiffer. No Ventana is a noodle, but slight flex was noticable. Not a fair comparison because the Lenz has Flows (instead of Arches) and a TA 150mm rear wheel in its favor, so some component (maybe a lot) is the wheels.

    Technical climbing was awesome as I have found on pretty much all 29" bikes. This little frame did a great job in tight techy situations with rock drops in the middle of switchbacks, etc. Sort of like driving an economy car around the city. Very responsive to hopping around and body english. I did notice the rear wanting to let go a little quicker than the Lenz. I made some tight switchback moves with ease that vex me on the Lenz, but failed a couple rougher moves that I usually clear easily on the other bike.

    The front end felt nowhere near as heavy as the Curtlo, but not as light as the Lenz. Felt balanced.

    At high speed, it felt a little twitchier than I am used to, but not necessarily unstable. You just needed to pay attention.

    Lawn darted off several tech moves I usually clear with ease on the Lenz. Just about crapped my pants on another steep roll-off that I don't much think about on the Lenz. I felt the longer stays for sure in many situations. I never felt they added anything positive to the ride.

    It shreds best on smoother, tighter radius curvy singletrack, which is definitely its element, the front just tracks nicely around corners in these situations.

    I would say that in general, I like the Lunchbox more in almost every situation except:
    Tight, slow, technical climbing
    Tightish fast smoother singletrack
    Which is a fancy way of saying this is a very nice XC bike. It is a good bike, much better than the Curtlo it replaced, but without the visceral love reaction I get from the Box.

    I think I will ditch the 5" rockers and commit to 4" in order to gain a lower BB and slightly slacker HTA as better fits this bikes purpose. There are rides where I'm sure it will outperform the Lenz, unfortunately, they are mostly the tighter woods trails you find back east.

    This is a very first impression, and is likely to change as I get the thing tweaked to my liking.

    Just reaffirms the fact that all bikes are compromises, you just have to find the compromise that suits you best. My comparisons to the Lenz are like comparing a Salty to a Terremoto, or Spot to an RFX. There really is no comparison, and one frame or the other will appeal to you based on your needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  32. #32
    err, 27.5+
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    Nice summary. But the real question is... Does that front triangle feel stiffer and more appropriate for your trails than the curtlo steel triangle??
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AL29er
    Nice summary. But the real question is... Does that front triangle feel stiffer and more appropriate for your trails than the curtlo steel triangle??
    True. It is definitely a little stiffer in the front than the Curtlo, I don't notice any difference in rear stiffness. The difference in flex is not huge by any means on any of these frames. As far as the geometry, the Curtlo was more stable at high speeds, and a bit of a slug in tighter stuff. Of course its head angle was 2 degrees slacker, and wheelbase over two inches longer. I also mainly rode it with a 5" fork. If I had to pick between them, it would be the Ventana. I just wish it was a little slacker. The El Cap is more of a woods bike to me while the Curtlo lived for more wide open, high speed trails

    As far as differences, the 1" shorter chainstay on the Lenz is a much more dramatic difference than the 1.5" shorter TT on the El Cap. Something about the shorter stays really wakes up the ride making it more eager to corner, jump, and bunny hop, etc It essentially made everything better at the cost of slight front end lift on steep climbs that is controllable with saddle position and a little change of technique.

    If I could request the next generation 29" FS frame from Sherwood/Dave Turner, etc I would prefer a HTA around 70 degrees and chainstays around 17.5". For me, and my terrain, this geometry rides really, really nicely. I honestly don't know what the HTA on the Lunchbox is, except it is really slack (68?), and I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  34. #34
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    Put the 4" rockers on El Capitan and swapped the Pushed Fox for a plain old (old) Float RC. Also shortened the stem to 80mm.

    HTA slackens 1 degree or so. BB drops 0.5" (now 13.75).

    Immediately, this bike feels more balanced.

    Did a quick nocturnal urban ride around the streets/lawns/landscaping, and it feels really great.

    This should come as no surprise because this is how Sherwood designed this thing to handle anyway. I can't wait to get some trail time on this set up because it feels like a fast, nimble, stable all around XC performer. I bet the little bit of twitchiness is gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  35. #35
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    I really noticed a difference going from a DUC to my current WB 100. The sluggish (to me) handling of my El Cap with the Mav compared to the "speedy" demo with a QR WB was noticeable. I need a backup fork and I'm hesitant to go with a WB 110.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon
    I really noticed a difference going from a DUC to my current WB 100. The sluggish (to me) handling of my El Cap with the Mav compared to the "speedy" demo with a QR WB was noticeable. I need a backup fork and I'm hesitant to go with a WB 110.
    I think the El Cap with WB 110 would be a stellar Louisville bike. For a big guy like you, the TA fork would be a plus as well. I can't see how you would tell the difference in 10mm of unsagged Head angle.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

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    2nd Ride

    Dialed.

    This thing rocks.

    Changes pre-ride included switching to 4" rockers, shortening stem 10mm, switching from setback post to Gravity retarder "sit on top" post.

    Took it on a reasonably challenging ride with good steep climbing over water bars, fast, descending over the same sort of thing, and general tight and open sweeping turns with a few tech sections thrown in for good measure.

    Cockpit: perfect fit.

    The previous twitchy feeling it gone and replaced by telepathic handling. Great handling balance between stability, and a real ability to throw the bike around and have some fun (flickability for lack of a better word).

    The front end now comes up nicely when needed. Not heavy feeling at all. The only place I notice the difference from the Lenz is in panic, "instant manual needed now" situations. If I can get the slightest pedal stroke in, or if I even have a second to prepare to manual, I can land in whatever attitude I want.

    What does this little experiment tell me:

    1. For whatever reason: I like little bikes. It was no fluke that I loved riding Jayem's 6-Pack so much, with its little 23.25" ETT. It was supposedly a size too small for me. My Cross Check commuter is supposedly two sizes too small for me. This El Capitan is supposedly 1 or two sizes too small for me. El Comandante is supposedly one size smaller than recommended and I love the ride of all these bikes, and have generally disliked all bikes I've ridden with an ETT longer than 24 inches. Most folks would say this is crazy talk for someone 6'1". Most folks are wrong.

    I'm sort of wondering how the Lenz would ride I had gone with medium instead of the large. It is now my longest bike, and I certainly have no complaints about its handling. Still...

    2. Ride bikes as they were designed. Sherwood designed this as a 4" bike. I tried to make it into something it wasn't with the Curtlo front end and 5" rockers and fork. Don't bother, just trust the designer. This was a good lesson. Luckily I have come out of it about where I would have been if I had just bought an El Cap in the first place.

    3. I now own three mountain bikes and one commuter that I freaking love to ride (two Ventanas)!!! How blessed is that! They each have their place and are incredibly good bikes for their class of bike. No need for any fundamental tweaking that I can find. Now to find the time to enjoy them.

    As I final thought, I wonder if this experience is isolated to me, or if, in general, in 29" world, folks are making ETT's too long. The 29" wheel does not need it for stability. I wonder if a lot of folks out there would be happier on smaller front center bikes. Hard to say. I definitely know what I like at this time, and any future bike purchases will find me getting the shortest ETT that I can get my saddle to full height on.

    Finally, thanks Sherwood for making this experiment possible by building your frames with a high seat tube:top tube ratio.

    If you are interested in my Curtlo front tri, give me a shout. ETT is 24.5 and seat tube is 21", Head angle is 70.5 degrees. Other geometry is identical to El Cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

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