• 11-20-2012
    Stripes
    Anyone here running a DBair?
    I'm going to switch out my CCDB for a DBair with a high volume air canister on my 2012 Ciclon. Anyone here using a DBair or gone from a CCDB to a DBair? Sherwood mentioned the settings should be pretty much the same except back off the compression settings quite a bit because of the air canister.

    I love the CCDB, but there is some good feedback on those riding with the DBair and how nice they feel.
  • 11-22-2012
    mtnbiker4life
    Why do you want to switch? Is it the weight savings? I may run a DB-Air or a RS Monarch Plus RC3 on my new El Whatever. How are you liking the new gen rear suspension design?

    .
  • 11-22-2012
    JMac47
    Just read ad article
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    I'm going to switch out my CCDB for a DBair with a high volume air canister on my 2012 Ciclon. Anyone here using a DBair or gone from a CCDB to a DBair? Sherwood mentioned the settings should be pretty much the same except back off the compression settings quite a bit because of the air canister.

    I love the CCDB, but there is some good feedback on those riding with the DBair and how nice they feel.

    Wondering how these would be on a Bastard? Going to bump travel up on my frame w/standard 5.5" rockers and RP23(which together is waaay less then just the cost of the DB alone). Guess I just answered my own dilema....:nono:
  • 11-23-2012
    1962
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    I'm going to switch out my CCDB for a DBair with a high volume air canister on my 2012 Ciclon. Anyone here using a DBair or gone from a CCDB to a DBair? Sherwood mentioned the settings should be pretty much the same except back off the compression settings quite a bit because of the air canister.

    I love the CCDB, but there is some good feedback on those riding with the DBair and how nice they feel.

    ...can't wait to hear how you like the DBair. i have the DHX 5.0 air (on my la bruja) and the seal on the fox shox sucks they don't stop leaking oil. keep us infomed on the change over and what u think...ralph
  • 11-27-2012
    Stripes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life View Post
    Why do you want to switch? Is it the weight savings? I may run a DB-Air or a RS Monarch Plus RC3 on my new El Whatever. How are you liking the new gen rear suspension design?

    Yes, weight savings. My bike weighs an significant 34.5 lbs (down from 35.5), I'd like to get the weight a bit down on it. Not exactly expecting to have a light bike, but would like to get it down to between 32-33 lbs. Now that I have my Cuervo back, I don't need to have the Lobo to be as heavy duty.

    I ran a RS Monarch Plus RC3, which was great--when it worked. I had two replacements on warranties on that shock. Sold the second warranty replacement a year ago. The DBair wasn't out then.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Wondering how these would be on a Bastard? Going to bump travel up on my frame w/standard 5.5" rockers and RP23(which together is waaay less then just the cost of the DB alone). Guess I just answered my own dilema....:nono:

    I rode a CCDB on my X-5. It was awesome on that bike too. You have the white older designed Bastard right? Not a fan for the RP23, it felt either two soft or spikey to me.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 1962 View Post
    ...can't wait to hear how you like the DBair. i have the DHX 5.0 air (on my la bruja) and the seal on the fox shox sucks they don't stop leaking oil. keep us infomed on the change over and what u think...ralph

    Ralph: definitely. I'll post the results and the settings here like I did with the CCDB for the Ciclon and the X-5. The Cane Creek rear shocks really impresses me, but I'm glad I waited on the DBair for them to get the high volume canister available.
  • 11-28-2012
    1962
    Cool, looking forward to see if the seal holds the oil and what you have to say about the air version compared to your coil over version. thanks...ralph
  • 11-28-2012
    JMac47
    Older?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    You have the white older designed Bastard right? Not a fan for the RP23, it felt either two soft or spikey to me.

    Hey, I resemble that remark Stripes! :skep: Yeah, it's the latest version '09 but with the new Kashima RP23 shock. Not a Zeus if that's what you were thinking. Been hearing the Kashima's are better suited for bigger riders. If I switch the travel to 5.5", Ventana will be giving me the pre Kashima 23 which may work out better if tuned correctly for my # and ride.
  • 11-28-2012
    Stripes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark Stripes! :skep: Yeah, it's the latest version '09 but with the new Kashima RP23 shock. Not a Zeus if that's what you were thinking. Been hearing the Kashima's are better suited for bigger riders. If I switch the travel to 5.5", Ventana will be giving me the pre Kashima 23 which may work out better if tuned correctly for my # and ride.

    Sorry, didn't mean anything by it. I don't think that Kashima coating makes a difference on which weight is better the shock--isn't it high volume vs low volume canisters? For the forks, I notice no differences on the Kashima vs. non-Kashima. I haven't tried the shocks since they went to Kashima.
  • 11-28-2012
    JMac47
    Didn't take anything by it :)!
  • 11-29-2012
    Stripes
    Interesting followup from Cane Creek when I asked them for base numbers for Ventana for the DBair:

    "We don't have a base tune for the El Ciclon, but if you have your settings for the coil you have a great starting point. Rebound should remain very similar and your LSC probably wont change much either. Just start with your coil settings, but take HSC and turn it to about a 1/4 turn from wide open. You can slowly dial it in from there to the desired feel."

    So I'll have to write down my settings, and open the HSC a 1/4 turn and see how it feels. DBair gets here either tomorrow or Monday, but won't be able to test it for a while with the weather here. I'll post the initial numbers when I get to the shock installed.
  • 12-03-2012
    Stripes
    1 Attachment(s)
    So after spending some time setting the shock, taking out the spacers out of the CCDB, and setting up the new shock, the damn thing does not fit. I'm really unimpressed with an air canister so freaking large that it doesn't clear the rear derailler and I had to put the bike in 140mm travel mode to get it to mount. Seriously--what brain surgeon designed this?

    I set the sag on it to 30% (115psi), but the front derailleur barely clears on the top and clears by maybe a millimeter in the bottom part.

    I'm really not sure what to do, I mean, other than turn around and sell the damn thing and replace it with an RP23.

    Rumor has it you can buy offset spacers, or even possibly another front derailleur would work. I don't need it in 140mm.. I want it back where it was because I spent all this time getting the geo right running 150mm in the back and 160mm in the front.

    What would you engineers say?
  • 12-03-2012
    Stripes
    1 Attachment(s)
    Here's a closeup and a much cleaner picture. *sigh* Sorry, I don't know why the picture isn't rotated.
  • 12-03-2012
    mtnbiker4life
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    So after spending some time setting the shock, taking out the spacers out of the CCDB, and setting up the new shock, the damn thing does not fit. I'm really unimpressed with an air canister so freaking large that it doesn't clear the rear derailler and I had to put the bike in 140mm travel mode to get it to mount. Seriously--what brain surgeon designed this?

    I set the sag on it to 30% (115psi), but the front derailleur barely clears on the top and clears by maybe a millimeter in the bottom part.

    I'm really not sure what to do, I mean, other than turn around and sell the damn thing and replace it with an RP23.

    Rumor has it you can buy offset spacers, or even possibly another front derailleur would work. I don't need it in 140mm.. I want it back where it was because I spent all this time getting the geo right running 150mm in the back and 160mm in the front.

    What would you engineers say?

    Send it back. I wouldn't run offset reducers because I doubt they will hold on the lower mount. Ask Sherwood if he can make you an adapter. Or run the SRAM 1x11 and ditch the front derailleur. I'm digging that 1x11 system.....thinking about it for the El Whatever once it arrives.

    .
  • 12-03-2012
    SinglePivot
    Will it fit upside down? If you really want to keep it, How about running a hammerschmit? Or, see if Sherwood can do a direct mount front derailleur, that would be the extreme measure.

    -Sp
  • 12-03-2012
    1962
    yeah i secound that, you should ask sherwood i'm sure he can make it work. i wouldn't get rid of it, you should get sherwood to help out, give him a call, i would love to see that shock workout on your bike (at 150 mm) don't give up yet...ralph
  • 12-03-2012
    G-AIR
    Is it the front derailleur mount that is rubbing against the air canister?

    As mentioned above you have a few options.

    You might be able to just dremel/file the mount down to create some space. How much room do you need?

    Another option is a SRAM XX f.d. It looks like it has a really thin mounting collar. Stupid price for a f.d., but it might work.
  • 12-03-2012
    Stripes
    Guys-thanks for helping me think this through. My response are below--sorry if the tone comes off all wrong--pretty frustrated.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life View Post
    Send it back. I wouldn't run offset reducers because I doubt they will hold on the lower mount. Ask Sherwood if he can make you an adapter. Or run the SRAM 1x11 and ditch the front derailleur. I'm digging that 1x11 system.....thinking about it for the El Whatever once it arrives.

    You're right about the offset reducers. That would completely screw with the geometry of the bike. So no joy.

    I love the no front derailleur idea, except the XX1 system is a lot more money than I'm willing to throw at anything right now, which includes hubs, etc. The only other solution I can think of it a different front derailleur: This is an SLX from 2-3 years ago. Are the XTs or XTRs more narrow at the clamp now? What about SRAM front derailleurs? If someone made a front derailleur with a very narrow band or a direct mount/e-type fits it, I'll be ok.

    Cane Creek is getting a phone call tomorrow about this. I'm really frustrated. I really hate throwing money down the drain. And throwing more money to fix this is ridiculous that even when you look at the other high volume air shocks they're not nearly as ridiculous as this. The air canister is at least the size of a freaking beer can. It looks like a silencer.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SinglePivot View Post
    Will it fit upside down? If you really want to keep it, How about running a hammerschmit? Or, see if Sherwood can do a direct mount front derailleur, that would be the extreme measure.

    -Sp

    Another great idea, except the cost issue. And I could conceivable run one since I have ISC05 tabs on my bike.

    For the price of the Hammerschmidt though, I could buy another shock. At this point, I'm ready to try a new RP23 and just sell it if a new front derailleur with thinner mounts or e-type (do they still make those things?) fits, which isn't a certainty given that I'm running X-type cranks with PF30 adapters.

    1962 - For some reason, multi quote didn't include yours. I could ask Sherwood about custom something, but he told me today that he wasn't sure it would fit on my small frame and recommended trying it upside down. That didn't work, so I moved the flip bit out to 140mm to see if it would at least mount that way. It mounts, but it barely clears the front derailler at the top (2-3mm) and it just touches at the bottom--still, that's in 140mm mode, which is also no joy.
  • 12-03-2012
    1962
    ok i have a shimano xtr differential plate front derailleur, model...FD-M950-E...do you think this will work for you ?...ralph
  • 12-04-2012
    Internal14
    SRAM X.0 Front Der. 2x10 version has the metal clamp strap. Get one. Your DBAir will fit then. Easiest $65 you'll spend!
  • 12-04-2012
    Ciclistagonzo
    Anne,
    You need to get even more fundamental than just what steel banded front Der. will work.(BTW - Mykes suggestion is by far the best) Because that High Volume Canister looks too big to use at the 150mm setting no matter what.

    What you need to ask is, why are you using the High Volume Canister? One of the "benefits" of the Coil CCDB if I recall is that you use a much lower coil spring rate compared to Fox shocks. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that since it's the same damper as on the coil, the spring rate can be lower on the DBair? I'd try the standard can on the DBair first before anything else.

    -A
  • 12-04-2012
    Stripes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo View Post
    Anne,
    You need to get even more fundamental than just what steel banded front Der. will work.(BTW - Mykes suggestion is by far the best) Because that High Volume Canister looks too big to use at the 150mm setting no matter what.

    What you need to ask is, why are you using the High Volume Canister? One of the "benefits" of the Coil CCDB if I recall is that you use a much lower coil spring rate compared to Fox shocks. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that since it's the same damper as on the coil, the spring rate can be lower on the DBair? I'd try the standard can on the DBair first before anything else.

    -A

    That IS the standard/low volume version. They don't make a smaller canister.. they make an even bigger one (wtf). I'm not sure why they need an air can the size of a beer can, but it's their design.

    Fortunately, Cane Creek was unbelievably cool about it. They said since the shock doesn't fit the small Ventana Ciclon, they'll add it to a list of small AND medium frames it doesn't. *sigh* Seems like a serious design flaw to me, but at least they're being cool about it.

    So I'm going back to the CCDB. It fits, the settings work, and I can deal with the weight penalty since the shock isn't rotational weight.
  • 12-04-2012
    1962
    that's to bad you couldn't get the shock to work, btw the front derailleur i offered you would be free if it would work...ralph
  • 12-04-2012
    Stripes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 1962 View Post
    that's to bad you couldn't get the shock to work, btw the front derailleur i offered you would be free if it would work...ralph

    Thanks Ralph, if I was willing to keep it in 140mm mode, I would take you up on your offer for at least some beer :)
  • 12-04-2012
    1962
    i don't know if you know but this derailleur doesn't have a clamp to the seat tube, it mounts to the bottom bracket, you put it on before the cup so there is no clamp on the seat tube and if it works i would think you can keep the travel at 150 mm ...ralph
  • 12-04-2012
    Stripes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 1962 View Post
    i don't know if you know but this derailleur doesn't have a clamp to the seat tube, it mounts to the bottom bracket, you put it on before the cup so there is no clamp on the seat tube and if it works i would think you can keep the travel at 150 mm ...ralph

    Sounds like an e-type front deralleur. Would have to ask Aaron if it would work with an X-type on the PF30 BB and if the shock would clear in 150mm to even try. If not, it's not worth the effort.

    The whole thing was to get the same performance out of the shock with lighter weight, not change my whole bike. That said, I love how you guys think, and it's a good thing I don't have a lot of money to throw at this :)