Results 1 to 42 of 42
  1. #1
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089

    AM/FR Hardtail Ventana

    A buddy of mine was talking the other day about how he missed having a HT freeride bike. Back in the day he owned a Sinister Ridge which is a killer frame! Bomb-proof, nice slack AM geometry, fine craftsmanship, etc. Now that he has just a Turner RFX (and the fact that he's a bike whore) he is longing for that AM/FR hardtail once again. We were talking about it and that's when I realized there is a gap in the Ventana lineup. I think it would be cool if Sherwood made a hardtail with a AM/FR geometry. Something like the Sinister Ridge. I think it'd be an awesome addition to the Ventana family. Thoughts.....?

  2. #2
    198
    Reputation: RSutton1223's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,804
    Sherwood could build it for him. All of the gusseting is already set up on the HT's...it would just have to have custom geometry.

  3. #3
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Oh yeah I know he could do it custom but I am thinking it would be a nice addition to the Ventana AM line in general.
    Last edited by zod; 12-20-2007 at 05:57 AM.

  4. #4
    Bodhisattva
    Reputation: The Squeaky Wheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,274
    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    Oh yeah I know he could do it custom but I am thinking it would be a nice addition to the Ventana AM line in general.
    I think demand for a such a bike is low and sales would be sluggish, to say the least.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    101
    I had a chat with Alan in the UK about this, about 18 months ago . I picked up a MC Rumble as the cash was tight instead, its since been sold. IMO The rumble would be a nice geo to go off, but I couldn't agree more.

    Would open up Ventana to a different category of rider - more affordable than a Ventana FS and maybe the younger jumpy crowd could get on board. El águila would be my suggestion regarding the name :-)

  6. #6
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
    I think demand for a such a bike is low and sales would be sluggish, to say the least.
    Wow I disagree ........

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,740
    Not sure if the younger crowd would pay $1K for a HT frame. I also think demand would be low based simply on the cost of Ventana HTs.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    101
    Not sure about the US Squeak, but a lot of UK riders use a hardtail in the winter and some FS owners are going back to a hardtail but wanting something more hard riding than the XC hardtails they came from. I get the impression from reading about the US (e.g. from things like the reader survey in MBA and the bikes most US mags seem to be testing) I can see where you are coming from - as it seems hardtail ownership is pretty low compared to UK/Europe. Just my guess.

  9. #9
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    I know plenty of HT AM riders and it doesn't equate to age or deepness of pockets.

  10. #10
    Bodhisattva
    Reputation: The Squeaky Wheel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    10,274
    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle
    Not sure about the US Squeak, but a lot of UK riders use a hardtail in the winter and some FS owners are going back to a hardtail but wanting something more hard riding than the XC hardtails they came from. I get the impression from reading about the US (e.g. from things like the reader survey in MBA and the bikes most US mags seem to be testing) I can see where you are coming from - as it seems hardtail ownership is pretty low compared to UK/Europe. Just my guess.
    Same on this side of the pond....except they are 29ers. I dig my 29er HT.

    I have zero insight into the Euro market. I know a few folks in the States who ride rugged 26" AM HTs, but not many. And none use them as their everyday bike - just more of a novelty type item. And most I knew in the past have migrated to dualies.

    It's obviously a business decision. A manufacturer has to bet that he can sell enough frames to cover the cost of the manufacturing. There are already some good options out there so I have to question how many bikes would actually be sold yearly. Again, my guess is not many.

    Edit: I'm an old 38 year old fart and most of the guys I ride with are old farts too. Maybe the 20-sumthins see more of a need for this type of bike?

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,740
    I live in Colorado now. I used to live in the Midwest (Kansas City). There were more HT riders there (XC) but I don't see that many HT riders here. I also see a hundred times the number of riders here but most are on FS rigs. In Kansas City, I usd to see more HTs a few years ago but there still are a larger % than that are here. It seems that 29er HTs are the only ones I see. Even that is infrequent compared to 4"-5" FS bikes.

    The guys that do have nice 26" HTs are the ones who use them as second bikes here. There is a market, I'm sure- but I just don't think Ventana would sell that many and I don't think people want to pay more than $400-$500 for a HT frame. I would but I'd get a 29er or 650B HT as a second bike. I'd never own a 26er HT again unless it's a steel custom job. All the riders I know think the same way (except for the steel custom rig) and only one owns a Alum 26er HT he still rides sometimes. A few are contemplating the purchase of 29er HT as a second bike though.

    I wish Sherwood would give us his opinion but he is one quiet dude.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Bling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,586
    I strongly agree with this idea while also taking sieds with Squeaky. Would be cool but would also probably be a niche market

    another sick idea in my rotten head
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,740
    Ah, good point- I'm 39 and halfway into the grave so it may be an age thing though I have not wanted a HT since I was in my upper 20s. That Nicolia HT looks tough.

  14. #14
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Well I'm 34 so I guess I'm still young compared to you old dudes in your upper 30's. I guess it's all about the crowd you're around.....I hang around a more FR/AM oriented crowd so I see my share of AM hardtails. I certainly think it could fall into a niche market but so do FS tandems and Vantana makes those. Niche doesn't mean it can't turn a profit. Hell I mountain unicycle and I have MANY mUni's to choose from......plenty of maunfacturers are making them and appearantly making money. If that ain't niche then I don't know what is???

  15. #15
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,288
    I asked about this exact project over 18 months ago, and even had the design laid out for it, Down to the tubing and gussets to use etc. At the time it was cost prohibitive since it would have been an HT frame + full custom. And in discussing it with Sherwood, Squeaky is right, there isn't enough market for it. And after seeing how well the Pantera/Chamuco lower cost Experiment worked out for Ventana, I really don't blame him for shying away from it.

    I ended up going with a Jenson Special, Jamis Komodo, Total Cost for the project was $425.
    But then again, I already had the Fork, brakes, wheels and drivertrain!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Bling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,586
    Cotic, Cove, Chromag, Sinister, dark cycles, Orange, Curtis, Santa cruz, sobre, dialed bikes,nicolai...there are plenty available.
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  17. #17
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Mr. Bling....I can only buy Ventana from here on out though

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    40

    Why not get a ridge?

    I own an El Ciclon and am awaiting my 2nd Sinister(Simon Bar HT 29er).
    I have owned many different brands and Sinister's quality is right up ther with Ventana.
    Hand made in the US with high grade materials. I believe the Ridge is going for about $750, hard to beat for what you get. Give "Frank the Welder" a call! He was just inducted into the MTB Hall of Fame this year and has quite a resume.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Bling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,586
    Agreed and I still have that hardtail Terremoto project in my head!

    But some of the bikes in that list are fantastic, granted though, they're not Vs.

    My point was, there are already plenty of capable boutique bikes for that program, mostly English or Canadian though. But the same thing that prevents DT from producing a XC hardtail will prevent Sherwood to produce this.

    Now, I know what I must do, win the lottery and go full custom.
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,740
    As much as I love Ventanas, there are other great bikes out there- FS and HTs, custom or not. Ya just have to open your eyes again

  21. #21
    Ventana Mountain Bikes
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    I wish Sherwood would give us his opinion...
    Fundamentally I have no problem with building this type of frame. But with my plate plenty full with other frames...that I know will sell, I have a hard time allocating resources to a project like this without some hard numbers on demand. I think demand for an affordable ($400-500) FR hardtail are probably pretty respectable, but in case you haven't noticed, nothing we build at Ventana can be classified as "affordable" by it-comes-over-on-a-boat standards. A FR hardtail from Ventana would be in the $1000-1100 range. Any takers on that?
    SPG

    "One lick from the lollipop of mediocrity and you suck forever" anonymous

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,740
    Umm..no thanks Sherwood. No $1,100 FR HTs or Unicycles please. Let's stick to the ones that work so well already.

    We will send Zod over to another forum with these crazy ideas

  23. #23
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Actually I would pay a grand for a FR HT Ventana frame.....but I am slowly becoming a self-acknowledged bike whore.

    Wow Flyer a Ventana Mountain Unicycle.....now why didn't I think of that! That's another $1000 I have to come up with.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1,018
    Guys,

    there are two hallowed names in USA aluminum Frame welding and building-one is sherwood-the other is Frank the Welder--Frank personally builds a high grade aluminum, all-USA built Alu All-Mountain Hard tail-and it retails for $750.00 in rapidly depreciating US dollars (Yep, I'm talking about the Sinister ridge).

    Short of Custom-what else do you want? I'm sure Ventana will understand...

  25. #25
    Shot Down in Flames...
    Reputation: D-Rock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,221
    Did some one say Ventana AM HT?



    Custom El Chiquillo. Approved by the man himself for a 130mm fork.

    Contrary to some of the previous posts, I ride this aluminum HT ~60% of the time. I also have a 5" El Salt & a 26" wheeled El Bucanero SS.

    The demise of the 26'er HT has been greatly exaggerated!


    YMMV,
    D.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 11 Bravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Rock
    ......................Contrary to some of the previous posts, I ride this aluminum HT ~60% of the time.........................The demise of the 26'er HT has been greatly exaggerated!


    YMMV,
    D.

    I have to agree with you D. I have a El Chiquillo, an El Toro and an X-5. Although I love all 3 of them, the El Chiquillo gets as much pedal time as the other 2 put together. Strangely enough, out of the 3 the El Chiquillo is the bike I have the least amount of money in also.

    I am 44 years old, so I guess I don't really fit in the 20ish crowd that some speculate would be more interested in an AM specific HT. Regardless, I think Sherwood got it right with HT frames he offers now. They sure rock for the riding I do.
    I'm not very smart, but I can lift heavy things

  27. #27
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    good stuff D-Rock.......super nice!

  28. #28
    Captain Underpants
    Reputation: Random Drivel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,281
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperbMan
    Guys,

    there are two hallowed names in USA aluminum Frame welding and building-one is sherwood-the other is Frank the Welder--Frank personally builds a high grade aluminum, all-USA built Alu All-Mountain Hard tail-and it retails for $750.00 in rapidly depreciating US dollars (Yep, I'm talking about the Sinister ridge).

    Short of Custom-what else do you want? I'm sure Ventana will understand...
    I almost went with a Simon Bar, but ultimately went with the El Padrino instead. The Simon Bar is one sweet bike though; the chainstay bridge alone is a real work of art. (see below)

    Next HT will most probably be a Sinister; Next Fully most def a Ventana.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Tiles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    421
    I'm the buddy li'l zoddler was referring to in the OP. I had a ridge for about a year then went to the splinter. the splinter was too complicated and I wound up with the 5-pack. While I love the turner, I long for the ridge. It's just a plain ol' fun bike, no frills, not overbuilt, just totally solid. I have had a million frames and it's the only one I've had seller's remorse with. I'm working a deal on an 03 right now that a buddy has. Will post back with the results. Here's my old one:


  30. #30
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    That's the 3897 frame of 4921 Tiles has owned.......

  31. #31
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
    Reputation: scrublover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    8,668
    Gotta' pipe in here, as a pretty dedicated burly hardtail guy. Having ridden ti, aluminum, and steel... if you're willing to spend the dough to get a custom frame built, let's say up to a grand (or a nice off the shelf) then get custom steel; you'll also have far more options in builders.

    There are so many freaking box stock aluminum hardtails out there that are in this category it ain't even funny. There are getting to be more stock steel versions, and the custom options are all over the map.

    Alu: Rocky Mtn. Flow is a fun frame. Specilized makes a more trail oriented P series bike. Jamis has a couple. Crap, nearly every bike company out there has a burly aluminum hardtail frame. If they don't sell as frame only, buy the cheapo full bike version, strip it down and build it up to suit. The new Chameleon frames look dope. Transition Vagrant. Knolly or Evil if you want super-duper burly. Iron Horse, Kona for sure. Marin even used to have a couple really cool beefy hardtail frames.

    Unless you have funky fit issues, or just plain want custom, there are quite a few steel frames that are pretty hot. If I were in the market for a new steel ride, non-custom:

    Evil Sovereign
    Chromag Bikes (a couple different models)
    On-One 4-5-6
    Cotic Soul or BFe

    Go poke around in a couple of the hardtail threads in the "all-mountain" forum for some ideas.

    Also here: hardtails only. http://mtb.unrealcycles.com/


    My normal ride is with a Pike on it, but a few rides with an older Z-150 were pretty damn fun as well! Too bad that fork weighed the front of the bike down so much! If my current Pike dies, it'll get replaced with a Lyric. 68 head angle with the Pike now. Big fatty tire room. Beefy tubing and enough gusseting to make me feel comfortable.

    Old bike:


    New frame with the old bike parts:

    Waiting for trails to get decently dry again, and my cold to die off so I can finally break her in.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  32. #32
    Basura Blanca
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,766
    Funny. I thought of your Peyto when I read this yesterday. And BTW, Version 2 looks very nice! If I were wanting a beefy AM HT to beat on, I'd grab one of the Marins that adrenaline has on sale for $99. What they're calling the ACX looks to be the same as the venerable B-17.
    - Joe

  33. #33
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
    Reputation: scrublover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    8,668
    Quote Originally Posted by NuMexJoe
    Funny. I thought of your Peyto when I read this yesterday. And BTW, Version 2 looks very nice! If I were wanting a beefy AM HT to beat on, I'd grab one of the Marins that adrenaline has on sale for $99. What they're calling the ACX looks to be the same as the venerable B-17.
    - Joe
    That's a score! Toss a Pike up front and ride, replace the frame later if something else catches your eye, or swap stuff to a fully if you decide the hardtail doesn't suit.

    Looks a respectably beefy enough frame.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  34. #34
    Ultra Ventanaphile
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    3,288
    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    There are so many freaking box stock aluminum hardtails out there that are in this category it ain't even funny. There are getting to be more stock steel versions, and the custom options are all over the map.

    Alu: Rocky Mtn. Flow is a fun frame. Specilized makes a more trail oriented P series bike. Jamis has a couple. Crap, nearly every bike company out there has a burly aluminum hardtail frame. If they don't sell as frame only, buy the cheapo full bike version, strip it down and build it up to suit. The new Chameleon frames look dope. Transition Vagrant. Knolly or Evil if you want super-duper burly. Iron Horse, Kona for sure. Marin even used to have a couple really cool beefy hardtail frames.

    .
    I agree, I loves me Ventana's (I've been accused of being a "shill", a bike whore and and an elitist because of my Ventana Addiction) but unless it's going to be your "only" bike ala you. There's more options out there. And I'd rather see Sherwood stay focused on the frames he produces now.

    As I mentioned before, I built this one up, for Dirt Jumping, but it could easily double as an AM bike. Got the frame from Jenson for $129. And realistically, I'd rather be practicing my jump skills on this and not have to worry about mid-flight aborts like I would if I was tossing a Ventana!

    (Note, Much Shorter FR Stem and OS Bar, on there now)

    Scrub, I noticed you run a short cage Rear D. on your's, is that so you don't have to run a chain guide up front?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  35. #35
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim?
    Reputation: scrublover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    8,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    Scrub, I noticed you run a short cage Rear D. on your's, is that so you don't have to run a chain guide up front?
    Nah, there is just no need for a longer cage when I'm running it this way. Actually it worked just fine when using two rings as well. 32/22 with a 12-34 rear setup. Doesn't need to take up as much slack as a three ring setup, and with no suspension movement either...let's you run the chain as short as you can possibly go. Just less complicated.

    That Komodo looks good!

    There are so many alu and steel frames out there off the shelf, and custom steels for far less than what most custom alu frames would run. Unless you really want alu or a particular alu builder and have some funky fit issues, there are tons of options out there.
    Florence Nightingale's Stormtrooper

  36. #36
    Homey don't play that!
    Reputation: Pauliemon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,088
    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    Mr. Bling....I can only buy Ventana from here on out though
    Dude I love you.
    Old age and treachery will always win over youth and exuberance.

  37. #37
    Captain Underpants
    Reputation: Random Drivel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,281
    Quote Originally Posted by NuMexJoe
    Funny. I thought of your Peyto when I read this yesterday. And BTW, Version 2 looks very nice! If I were wanting a beefy AM HT to beat on, I'd grab one of the Marins that adrenaline has on sale for $99. What they're calling the ACX looks to be the same as the venerable B-17.
    - Joe
    Whoa--now that is a deal, as is that Komodo.

  38. #38
    011100000110111101101111
    Reputation: unfluid one's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,247
    This was before I converted it to SS and slapped on a Pike to lower the front.
    It's a great complement to the t'moto.. can't think of a nicer AM HT for my needs. It's light (~4.5 lbs), certified to a 6" fork, burly, unique.. chromag and evil were on my radar but went with the AL frame with no regrets.


  39. #39
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauliemon
    Dude I love you.

    Aww.....that's sweet

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Bling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Rock
    Did some one say Ventana AM HT?



    Custom El Chiquillo. Approved by the man himself for a 130mm fork.

    Contrary to some of the previous posts, I ride this aluminum HT ~60% of the time. I also have a 5" El Salt & a 26" wheeled El Bucanero SS.

    The demise of the 26'er HT has been greatly exaggerated!


    YMMV,
    D.
    sorry to
    esurect the thread but the idea's still there

    is that full custom? I guess so otherwise the BB would be too high?

    that's a lot of dough to drop if it's the case.
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

  41. #41
    zod
    zod is offline
    Southern Fried mUni
    Reputation: zod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,089
    Yes bump the thread......I still want an AM/HT Ventana.

    I even have a name picked out One of a kind Ventana

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr Bling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,586
    Since I couldn't cough up the dough for a custom geo to get the bike I craved for I decided to buy a second hand Chromag sakura.

    a bit of an infidelity, but wanted to be a man of steel for quite some time.

    just out of curiosity, want BB height would I get with a 130 fork on a chiquillo and what head angle? regardless of waranty issues
    Former Homer...Ventana convert: extreme poseur!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •