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  1. #1
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    08 Ciclon, tough enough for 545mm a-c fork

    I notice that Ventana seems to have beefed up the Ciclon for 2008
    Can it handle a 160mm travel fork? (545 a-c)
    Please don't say buy a Terremoto as i looked long and hard at that frame but the geo doesnt work for me (BB too high, HA too steep)
    I'm hoping the Ciclon with 545mm a-c fork will give me a 66.5 - 67 degree Headangle with a 14" ish BB height
    This would be very close to my 2006 4" Transition Preston geometry, which i love, but i need the longer (23") top-tube and lighter weight of the Ciclon.



    P.S. If i do buy one and break it, whats the crash replacement policy like?

  2. #2
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    IIRC that is the part of the reasoning behind the changes...that people kept putting bigger forks on them,,,


    wanna be complete sure? call sherwood

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    I notice that Ventana seems to have beefed up the Ciclon for 2008
    Can it handle a 160mm travel fork? (545 a-c)
    Please don't say buy a Terremoto as i looked long and hard at that frame but the geo doesnt work for me (BB too high, HA too steep)
    I'm hoping the Ciclon with 545mm a-c fork will give me a 66.5 - 67 degree Headangle with a 14" ish BB height
    This would be very close to my 2006 4" Transition Preston geometry, which i love, but i need the longer (23") top-tube and lighter weight of the Ciclon.



    P.S. If i do buy one and break it, whats the crash replacement policy like?
    I don't think it would be as slack as you're looking for. My 07' with a Lyrik was approx. 68deg (don't have a super precise angle finder, but maybe 67.5 definitely not any slacker than that). Head-angle and BB height will basically end up almost identical to the Terremoto, so you're not really achieving your goal with that setup.

    Larry
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  4. #4
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    Larry: Was that with stock or 6" rockers? If it was with 6" rockers; wouldn't the BB end up a little lower and the head angle a little slacker with the stock rockers and a 160mm fork. (I can't really see the attraction there, but hey...)

    How DID you like the Ciclon with 6" travel, btw?

  5. #5
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    If the Ciclon Headangle with a 511mm a-c fork is 68.5 degrees as per Ventanas geo chart, then a fork that is 34mm taller will make it roughly 1.5 degrees slacker, so should be 67 degrees at least.
    I'm not sure what difference 34mm fork height would make to the BB though

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazed
    Larry: Was that with stock or 6" rockers? If it was with 6" rockers; wouldn't the BB end up a little lower and the head angle a little slacker with the stock rockers and a 160mm fork. (I can't really see the attraction there, but hey...)

    How DID you like the Ciclon with 6" travel, btw?
    with 6", HA is steeper and BB higher.
    There are several write ups, one by Larry and one by RSutton

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    If the Ciclon Headangle with a 511mm a-c fork is 68.5 degrees as per Ventanas geo chart, then a fork that is 34mm taller will make it roughly 1.5 degrees slacker, so should be 67 degrees at least.
    I'm not sure what difference 34mm fork height would make to the BB though
    With my X, every 10mm in a2c yeilded about a quarter inch change in BB.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    P.S. If i do buy one and break it, whats the crash replacement policy like?
    Good if you want the same frame.
    They will repair.
    Or replace.

  9. #9
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    BB will be higher with a Lyrik and stock rockers. I have ridden the Ciclon with the 5" rockers with a Pike and the Lyrik and I have set it up with the 6" rockers on the Lyrik. If you are wanting a 6" 545mm a2c fork with a lower bb....buy the Terremoto. You will raise the BB height and with the 5" rockers...the Ciclon is raked at 545mm a2c. It felt much more balanced with the 6" rockers and 160mm fork but the BB was higher than my TM setup. If you have any specific questions let me know.

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    I'm not interested in any other rockers thanks, just whether a standard 08 Ciclon is tough enough to handle a 545mm a-c fork.
    Like I said in my original post the Terremoto has too steep a HA (67.5 quoted but closer to 68 according to reports on the forums) and a BB that is too high for my liking (13.8 quoted but supposedly a fair bit higher according to reports on forums)
    I happen to like a slack HA so if the Ciclon is "raked" thats fine with me, i'll have an adjustable fork to lower it for the singletrack.
    So, to recap, i'm after a 66.5 to 67 degree HA and a 14" or under BB height using a 545mm a-c fork.
    Is the Ciclon an option?

    I'm not interested in comments about it being unbalanced as I currently ride an 06 Transition Preston with 4" rear and a 6.4" fork and its the best feeling bike i've ever ridden.


    PS I live in the UK so ringing Sherwood isnt an easy option ans i've sent them loads of emails with no response

  11. #11
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    You should be fine then. I think the numbers would work out just fine.

    You can also have them custom gusset the HT for you so that you don't run any chances of HT shearing like people have when they use an over-spec'd length fork.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    PS I live in the UK so ringing Sherwood isnt an easy option ans i've sent them loads of emails with no response
    Well, You could ring up AJR who's in the UK and is super knowledgable on Ventana's as well. And as far us the no email response. That would be a first since Both T and Sherwood are very good about replying to Customer questions. Maybe the emails are getting thru some how?
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  13. #13
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    I have also sent a couple of e-mails there without gettin a reply. (Although I have gotten replies on other ones.) Maybe this is their way of telling non-US residents to contact the local distributor.

    Phoning Sherwood from the UK really shouldn't be a problem either. Just account for the time difference.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye

    PS I live in the UK so ringing Sherwood isnt an easy option ans i've sent them loads of emails with no response
    I am in Germany..and i still ring Teresa using Skype super cheap...

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    the 08 Ciclon is different ?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by justa
    the 08 Ciclon is different ?

    yep.. downtube is straight gauge now ...also has an extra gusset in the HT IIRC

  17. #17
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    Ok...to answer your question...yes it will handle it.

    On the BB issue...It is going to raise it to at least the height of the TM.

  18. #18
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    Well, ALL Ventana's are now straight gauge, and they all are getting the new version of the Bigote/Downtube one piece Gusset vs. the old two piece versions.

    -A
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    Well, ALL Ventana's are now straight gauge, and they all are getting the new version of the Bigote/Downtube one piece Gusset vs. the old two piece versions.

    -A
    Isn't the downtube on the TM a butted one (cricket bat)?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterZero
    Isn't the downtube on the TM a butted one (cricket bat)?
    mine isn't..... no Worth sticker on mine either...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    mine isn't..... no Worth sticker on mine either...
    well, seems that i have to get my act together and fess up...


    Site marketing material :
    To handle the demands of burlier riding and bigger travel, we’ve incorporated a butted tapered and swaged oval-to-round down tube to increase El Terremoto’s strength and stability with minimal weight penalty.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crisillo
    mine isn't..... no Worth sticker on mine either...
    Got one on mine.

  23. #23
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    You probably have one of the original 99 Downtubes from the first batch.
    I'm positive about my first statement for all the straight tube frames-Salty, X-5, Ciclon.
    I honestly forgot about the cricket bat DT when I typed that up. Shouldn't have spoken in absolutes.

    Oh and the website needs updates, especially on the text. Sherwood actually writes a lot of that stuff, but he's usually really busy, welding/mitering, CNC'ng, heat treating, Whipping Paulimon, powdercoating or talking on the phone with customers!
    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

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    any pics of the new El Ciclon ?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    You probably have one of the original 99 Downtubes from the first batch.
    correct!

    Chad did tell me it was one of the first ones he got... so probably among those

    so..now I have a 2008 model?

  26. #26
    ajr
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    Quote Originally Posted by justa
    any pics of the new El Ciclon ?
    This is one. New gusset, straight gauge tubes.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #27
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    ah I see - that gusset is bigger isn't it !

    Forgive my ignorance but what is different about straight gauge tubes ?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by justa

    Forgive my ignorance but what is different about straight gauge tubes ?
    the tube wall has the same thickness along the length of the tube.... usually tubes are butted to reduce weight while maintaining strength as much as possible...straight gauge tubes are stronger, but a bit heavier

  29. #29
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    ah I see

    well as I use a 130mm fork I don't think those changes will benefit me !

  30. #30
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    ajr, is that a 160mm Nixon?
    If it is, any chance you could measure the BB height?
    Cheers

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciclistagonzo
    ...Whipping Paulimon...
    always pictured Pauliemon as that type

  32. #32
    ajr
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    ajr, is that a 160mm Nixon?
    If it is, any chance you could measure the BB height?
    Cheers
    That is a 145mm Nixon. The customer has the bike now so I cannot measure it. I have a 160mm on a Terremoto, although that is no help to you.

  33. #33
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    Ok cheers ajr
    if you've ridden a newer Ciclon, do you think it would stand up to some abuse with a coil shock fitted?
    Like 6 foot drops to transitions etc?
    ie will it handle everything at Cwmcarn DH if you are familiar with that course? (please bear in mind i currently do it with a tough 4" travel bike so i'm not expecting total plushness)
    I presume the rear end will take as much abuse as a Terremoto as it is the same?

  34. #34
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    I knew you'd appreciate that!

    -Aaron G.

    "Before D.W., "anti-squat" was referred to as pedal feedback."

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    I presume the rear end will take as much abuse as a Terremoto as it is the same?
    the Terremoto has the HD stays (reinforced in a couple of places) stock...IIRC the Ciclon doesn't have them (stock), but can be added of course....

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    Ok cheers ajr
    if you've ridden a newer Ciclon, do you think it would stand up to some abuse with a coil shock fitted?
    Like 6 foot drops to transitions etc?
    ie will it handle everything at Cwmcarn DH if you are familiar with that course? (please bear in mind i currently do it with a tough 4" travel bike so i'm not expecting total plushness)
    I presume the rear end will take as much abuse as a Terremoto as it is the same?
    Your current 4" travel bike is built to handle those types of drops on a consistent basis...the Ciclon is not. The reason I am on a Terremoto now is because Sherwood told me that the Ciclon is not built for that kind of abuse.

    Just because the Ciclon has a little bit more travel than your Transistion doesn't mean that it is built for the same kind of riding. If you are going to be riding dh courses and drops...then buy the Terremoto or Bruja from Ventana's line. They are built for that kind of riding.

    The Ciclon rides great with a coil shock for AM type riding with the occasional drop. And as Cris said...they do not come with the same rear ends.

    I feel like I am repeating myself over and over again... I just went through all of this with Sherwood not too long ago...that is how I ended up here...



    Do what you want...but I showed Sherwood this...



    Which was done on a Ciclon with a Lyrik...which has the 545mm a2c that you are asking about...

    And he said it is not built for that kind of abuse on a regular basis.

    Here is a picture of the bike w/6" Rockers



    and here is a picture with the 5" rockers...



    So one last time....if you are going to be riding dh courses and doing drops bigger than 3-4 ft.. (w/a smooth transition or not)...the Ciclon is not the bike for you.
    Last edited by RSutton1223; 01-26-2008 at 02:57 PM.

  37. #37
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    Very suprised no response from emails from Sherwood even though you are in the UK. I was certain Sherwood never slept as some of the responses from him and T are almost immediate! That stands for AJR in the UK too.

    Wouldn't you consider a couple of tweeks to the geo of an ET?

  38. #38
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    got to agree with RS123 - if you are doing those kind of drops than the Terremoto sounds the better choice,

    Although more than tough enough for me the El Ciclon is still a pretty light weight frame - around the 6.4 llb mark which isn't that far of some frames that claim to be super light !

    Out of interest how much does the Terremoto weigh RS ?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by justa
    Out of interest how much does the Terremoto weigh RS ?
    35.20 as it sits now.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSutton1223
    35.20 as it sits now.
    thats not bad - only 10 lbs heavier than my El Ciclon...

  41. #41
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    ok thanks for all the info
    I had considered getting custom Headangle geo on a TM but it would cost a lot apparently.
    one more question then, rsutton have you measured the BB height on your Terremoto with the Lyriks at full travel?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    ok thanks for all the info
    I had considered getting custom Headangle geo on a TM but it would cost a lot apparently.
    one more question then, rsutton have you measured the BB height on your Terremoto with the Lyriks at full travel?
    14.25 with 2.4 tires. It really sounds like semi-custom or custom Terremoto would be the only option that's going to be exactly what you want geometry wise. If you don't want to spend that much then you'll have to compromise somewhere in terms of geometry. You can also do shorter travel rockers on the Terremoto if you don't want 6" travel.

    Larry
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    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

  43. #43
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    aye-aye,

    You could run a headset with plenty of lower stack height with the Terremoto to slacken the headangle, On One and Cane Creek make a +5, Ventana the +7 crown race (mates with king), there's a few others.
    beaver hunt

  44. #44
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    Having e mailed Sherwwod last week and got an answer back within 2 days (can't understand why you have not had replies) i'm looking at an X5 built in a El Terremoto jig and I am going to use the +7mm Ventana race and my Pike forks to give me another degree ON the headangle.

    you could just use the +7mm race as well and that would give you your magical 67 degrees. Which is the same as the Bruja BTW.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by vortexracing
    Having e mailed Sherwwod last week and got an answer back within 2 days (can't understand why you have not had replies) i'm looking at an X5 built in a El Terremoto jig and I am going to use the +7mm Ventana race and my Pike forks to give me another degree ON the headangle.

    you could just use the +7mm race as well and that would give you your magical 67 degrees. Which is the same as the Bruja BTW.
    vortex - just get a terremoto (in medium) and let me have a go

  46. #46
    ajr
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    Quote Originally Posted by aye-aye
    Ok cheers ajr
    if you've ridden a newer Ciclon, do you think it would stand up to some abuse with a coil shock fitted?
    Like 6 foot drops to transitions etc?
    ie will it handle everything at Cwmcarn DH if you are familiar with that course? (please bear in mind i currently do it with a tough 4" travel bike so i'm not expecting total plushness)
    I presume the rear end will take as much abuse as a Terremoto as it is the same?
    The El Ciclon is built as a trail bike. I have done bigger drops than 6' on an El Ciclon but it is not built to do this constantly like the El Terremoto or La Bruja. I have ridden an El Ciclon at Cwm Carn but preffered my El Terremoto there. The rear end can take a lot of hammering, the HD rear end as fitted to the Le Terremoto and La Bruja is the same as the tandem uses. It is able to handle the high torque loads of a large disc and the twisting effect produced by two riders when climbing in low gears.
    I have ridden the El Ciclon in 5" and 6" travel with both coil and air shocks and 160mm forks, for me it is best in the 5" travel with forks upto 145mm. If you want more travel go for the Terremoto.

  47. #47
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    Sorry Justa can't do, my legs are too short. However my mate has one and i'm sure if you really wanted a go he would let you. But be warned you may end up having 2 Ventana's

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by justa
    got to agree with RS123 - if you are doing those kind of drops than the Terremoto sounds the better choice,

    Although more than tough enough for me the El Ciclon is still a pretty light weight frame - around the 6.4 llb mark which isn't that far of some frames that claim to be super light !

    Out of interest how much does the Terremoto weigh RS ?
    I weighed my frame (still had bubble wrap and a zip tie on it, w/o shock mounting hardware or the shock) and it came in at: 6.66 lbs...but that is on my bathroom scale that isn't the most accurate.
    Full build has got to be mid-thirties.

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