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  1. #1
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    Provo area, for biking, and non-mormon relocation - family - ?

    We are considering Provo area because of a career job. We have 2 kids, and are not hard core riders but would love to do more riding, I have been in Houston but grew up on East coast technical terrain, have ridden Moab in past.

    Anyway, I realize any of the riding there is better than here. The area looks beautiful. We drove through from Canyons to Provo on our way back to Houston. Provo looked nice, the university takes up a lot of the town it seems.

    How good is the riding in Provo area, or do you have to drive to Park City area where I hear there are miles and miles of trails? We have only been there for snowboarding which is epic.

    Also, we are very non-religious and have been known to drink and even brew beer. I am very tolerant of others, open minded, but wonder if Provo maybe too Mormon for us? Would the whole town be too stifling, or can someone give some feedback. Thanks, I know its a bit OffTopic..

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    Stifling is a good description of Provo to a non mormon. STIFLING!!!!! with huge caps and lots of exclamation points would be more accurate. It's ground zero of the religion and everything near that town is dominated by it. Very hard for folks not of the faith to have anything resembling a normal life there. You'd give up an awful lot, the culture is not very flexible or tolerant. They know they own the place and they act like it. The church is the government there. But there's some nice riding nearby (google Nebo Loop) and it's 3 hours to Moab.

  3. #3
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    Provo is the most religious city in the state. However, the church is not the government there, the people are. And because most of the people are LDS, they vote conservatively. That's typical of any place. I hate it when people blame the local government on the church. I am not LDS btw. Provo has decent riding. Mostly in Provo Canyon and along the benches near Orem. Personally I'd look into several of the nearby cities but that is mostly because I don't like living in University towns if I can help it. Your life is what you make of it, if you like certain things, you'll make friends who do those things or tolerate them enough to hang out with. No one is going to look down on you or hate you because you aren't Mormon. I had a hard time adjusting for about a year or so when I moved here from Seattle in 1998 but now I love it. Good luck!
    I'm a mountain bike guide in South West Utah

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    I have a non-Mormon friend who grew up in Salt Lake during the 60's and didn't feel like he had a bad time of it as a kid. I imagine it's not any worse now. I live up in Park City which is a bit insulated. Though the people up here have their foibles as well! I'm about ready to shave my head and move to a secluded mountain retreat...but I'm already bald and NEED my Costco. No place is perfect and people are, after all - people.

  5. #5
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    Based on our experience re-locating to Utah from Ohio and stories I've heard since living in Utah for two years, I'd recommend looking somewhere other than Provo/Orem/Lehi, aka Utah valley. Are you ready for mormon parents to tell their kids not to talk to your kids because your kids aren't mormon? Are you ready for classmates, teachers, and school administrators to single-out your kids because they're not mormon? Extreme examples, but this stuff does happen.

    Besides, there are other areas of Utah with much better recreation and trail access if that is a major consideration. The Salt Lake valley neighbors Utah valley and is much more "normal" even though the two are right next to each other. Cottonwood Heights in SLC, Park City and surrounding area, Heber City, even Ogden would all be places to consider.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    However, the church is not the government there, the people are.
    Tell that to the Eagle Forum and Gayle Ruzicka.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    I have a non-Mormon friend who grew up in Salt Lake during the 60's and didn't feel like he had a bad time of it as a kid.
    Salt Lake City is one of the most liberal and diverse cities in Utah, which can't be said with a straight face about Provo.

    I grew up as a heathen in Logan in the 60's and 70's. My mind was blown when I went away to college. Yet here I am still living in the Chosen Land.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by miller542 View Post
    Are you ready for mormon parents to tell their kids not to talk to your kids because your kids aren't mormon? Are you ready for classmates, teachers, and school administrators to single-out your kids because they're not mormon? Extreme examples, but this stuff does happen.
    Has this actually happened to you or is it internet stories?

    I grew up in Provo as a non-member and loved it because my friends in church always had activities and only invited me to do the fun stuff. I have heard several of these stories and ask some of my friends with kids that still live in Provo and they say it's bunk as well.

    Provo is a great place to live, but not at the top of the list for riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeathstar View Post
    Provo is....not at the top of the list for riding.
    Which is the important part of this discussion. There are other areas of Utah with better access to trails and recreation.

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    So I guess the answer is no, but thanks for your histrionic ramblings.

    With regard to riding, there are some really fun trails up Provo Canyon and really close proximity to trails south of Salt Lake and in Payson. It's less than 4 hours from St. George, and a little more to Moab. Not a bad spot for riding.

  10. #10
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    Well the "background" is what I was looking for in this posting and glad to get some feedback. I had a Morman friend a few years ago on a joint job but we did not live close and jobs took us different directions. He was good guy and funny. But I have read some books understand what a big part of people's life the church is - obviously not just a one day a week, they have things for kids, meetings, all sorts of things...great if you are a member. I just wonder about the kids feeling "outside" the club being heathens and getting hassled.

    I also like the posts that are positive regarding the experience. The job is not certain but interviewing, and we drove through Provo as I mentioned, it looked beautiful.

    I think I could find great riding compared to Texas all over the place, but yes prefer SLC or Odgen, even Park City (we snowboard!). There is a great deal of difference between 80's and prior Utah and 2013 Utah, Park City actually feels like any other ski town.

    yes, i do ramble. thanks for reading and feedback.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeathstar View Post
    Has this actually happened to you or is it internet stories?

    I grew up in Provo as a non-member and loved it because my friends in church always had activities and only invited me to do the fun stuff. I have heard several of these stories and ask some of my friends with kids that still live in Provo and they say it's bunk as well.

    Provo is a great place to live, but not at the top of the list for riding.
    Not in Provo, but it and similar things have happened to me, friends, and family members.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  12. #12
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    How far are you willing to commute?

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    Re: biking, I would prefer to be as far north as possible in Utah County. In the Highland/Alpine/Cedar Hills/PG area. I think the best riding in Utah Co. in the area around American Fork Canyon. I actually think that would be a fantastic place to live, so that is where I would look, personally.

    Re: culture, it is like anywhere else -- there is a dominant "culture," if you will. 90% of the "non-members" I know seem love it here, don't have any issues with the dominant paradigm. 10% do seem to have problems, but I suspect they can't really get along with people wherever they go. Ie, they blame everyone else for their problems ("my kid only gets bad grades because he is not a Mormon") or have conspiracy issues ("the church controls the government here and will not allow activities on Monday nights"), or just have a hard time being in the minority when people believe or do things that they do not (ie, they assume everyone else sees them as a heathen and that everyone is "judging them" as they take their 6-pack to the checkout line at the store).

    I am LDS (grew up on the West Coast, transplant to Utah), and culturally/socially, we are like every other group of people. Most of us could care less what you do as far as brewing beer, going to church, whatever. A small percentage are irritating wackos. Just the way any social group pans out, unfortunately. If you are of average social competence, there should be little issue integrating. The real issue that I do see is that it can be somewhat of a tight-knit community, due mostly to the fact that we Mormons spend a lot of time together on our church responsibilities. It isn't that we want to exclude non-members, it is just that you are friends with people you know, that is all. The issue you will have in Provo is that 70-80% of the people are LDS, compared to 40-50% in other areas. So that means 70% of neighbors in Provo will already know each other pretty well through their mutual interest, and as a result, I understand how it could be a little harder to get to know people in the Provo area.
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  14. #14
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    If you're willing to commute a little, look at the Draper area near Corner Canyon. Definitely some great opportunities there for close-in trails. While I live in Salt Lake City, I have some close non-LDS friends that live in Draper just south of Highland drive. They are midwest transplants and send their two daughters to a charter school in Sandy. And yes, they are surrounded by primarily LDS but it doesn't seem to bother them.

    And this....
    Re: culture, it is like anywhere else
    ..not so much. I've lived a lot of places throughout the US and Utah is um...special... in it's monoculture. That being said, you will find your tribe.

    If you're unsure of trail networks and locations, spend some time on utahmountainbiking.com and skidmap.com

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    Draper...hmm... only 1/2 hour commute, in Houston that is close by! Interesting. Yea, that sounds better from both two wheel and social perspective. I don't imagine I'd have lot in common with many neighbors in Provo and I am a bit of a social person, plus closer to slopes (at least via highway) too. We'll see how the job pans out. I would like to get out of Houston, but its friendly, cheap housing, warm (ok hot & humid)...but flat. Hard to find very challenging traisl here, but towards Austin good and Dallas has fair bit, however that is about 3-4 hours away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charcist View Post
    If you're willing to commute a little, look at the Draper area near Corner Canyon. Definitely some great opportunities there for close-in trails. (snip)
    If you're unsure of trail networks and locations, spend some time on utahmountainbiking.com and skidmap.com
    Where is corner canyon? I am looking at google maps...see some parks, etc but nothing called that.
    Thanks again for advice.

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    I would agree with most of what has been said here already. I live in downtown SLC, and I avoid Utah County as much as I can. But, I'm somewhat optimistic about the changes that will be happening there in the next few years. There are a lot of high-tech jobs moving into the northern Utah County and southern Salt Lake County area, which will bring a lot of well-educated non-locals into that part of the state.

    I'm sure the demographics will be changing, but it will likely take 5 to 10 years to have much of an effect on the laws, politics, and culture of that area. Meanwhile, if you do move to Provo, just do your own thing and you'll find other people who are doing those things too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirkdaddy View Post
    Where is corner canyon? I am looking at google maps...see some parks, etc but nothing called that.
    Thanks again for advice.
    This is a zoomed-in view of the Corner Canyon trails: The Skid Map

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    We the people ...

    Corner Canyon on Skidmap

    Then look a little to the southeast from corner canyon and you'll see the mess of trails Lambert Park in Alpine. Make sure you're looking at a topo map as they seem close, but not really.

    Growing up in Texas, I can say that this place is better. And when the ocean's rise, your feet will be dry here. However, you might need a winter coat now....

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    Draper seems like a good compromise for you. non-mormon opinion: Tystevens' response seemed pretty level headed. Extreme cases aside, the reality of such a tight knit community will be evident, probably best to avoid it if you can. ( unless you like that sort of challenge )

    When I was new, I used to get upset and think a lot about the Mormons and their influence, now I see a lot of reverse discrimination and stereotyping from the non-mormon crowd.

    Don't get me wrong - i dislike much of their views, but this is america and that's what getting along is all about.

    There is better riding, but draper/corner canyon offers a pretty good compromise for access.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk View Post
    When I was new, I used to get upset and think a lot about the Mormons and their influence, now I see a lot of reverse discrimination and stereotyping from the non-mormon crowd.
    There is a bit of a rift between the groups at times, especially, I think, where there is not a lot of inter-mixing. It isn't so bad in established neighborhoods where everyone eventually gets to know each other. At least, I believe that to be the case in my neighborhood. But, for example, during undergrad at the U of Utah, my major (environmental sciences) was pretty non-LDS. And my appearance at the time (visible hippie sun tattoo, longish hair left from a little too much Pacific Northwest in my formative years) provided plenty of visual indicators that would lead someone to assume I was not a Mormon. There were more than one occasion where I noticed that people would suddenly limit their associations with me once it would come up, for whatever reason, that I was active LDS. I don't think that many of them were prejudiced against me, they just figured we had nothing in common so why would they seek to strike up a friendship. That or they thought I had horns, would try to convert them, or be offended by their actions, I don't know. But it is something that you come across living here from time to time -- some (not most) will try to immediately put you in a "one of them" box and treat you as such.

    But it is not much different than when I lived in Eugene or Portland, Oregon (which are highly liberal communities), where I was in the minority as a Christian and particularly as a conservative Republican. Most of the people with different beliefs than me were fine with it, and there were seldom any issues. A few people would attack me for it, and such was life. I didn't leave because of that -- I left because of the rain and the fact that, after a taste of Utah powder, I couldn't bear the thought of skiing anywhere else!

    And that brings me to my final point -- none of the social or religious concerns would prevent me from living in what I believe has the best outdoor recreation opportunities of any metro area in the United States! The rec options here are mind-blowing, really, when you consider how close the skiing and riding really is to the city. No where else could I be from my metro office to world class skiing and riding within 30 minutes. I have lived in Portland and Denver (2 cities lauded for their outdoor rec), and it really isn't even close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    particularly as a conservative Republican.
    That is the other thing that really helps one to live with the status quo in Utah.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

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    One of the most common things we hear from non-mormons who move to Utah is some complaint about the stifling lack of diversity. Diversity... really? Utah is one of the few places in the US that still has a truly unique and distinctive culture. And you want to kill that? What you really mean by diversity is that you want Utah to conform to the social and cultural norms of the rest of the United States. Hows that for diversity?

    As someone else said, if you are not totally socially tone deaf you can find friends and fit in. It is the people that move here and do nothing but complain about the culture that have a hard time fitting in.

    If you move to Mexico and complain about all the Mexicans - you are going to have a bad time. If you move to London and continually talk about how you do things the right way back in the good old USA - you are going to have a bad time. If you move to France and whine about the lack of triple stack cheeseburgers available at 2 in the morning and how there are no fatty scooters in the grocery store - you are going to have a bad time. Likewise, dont move to Utah and complain about all the Utahns.

    Mormons are not the borg. They do not demand that you be assimilated. (Though they will probably bring you a plate of cookies and let you know when church starts ) Just show a little cultural sensitivity, some tolerance, and dont be a flipping jerk about how superior your ways are to theirs. You will be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkinite View Post
    Likewise, dont move to Utah and complain about all the Utahns.
    And then there is the "Utah: Love It Or Leave It" component of the population. For what it's worth, I was born in Utah, I'm from Pioneer Stock (as they say) but I'm not Mormon. The fact is, a lot of Mormons in Utah feel that they own the state, and don't need to accommodate anything that conflicts with their religious values. You see it most often in the liquor laws which control drinking, bars, and restaurants, but you'll also see it in issues such as the management of public lands, education policy, support for gay rights, environmental regulations, etc.

    If you move here, and complain about anything, eventually a self-appointed representative of the Majority Culture will invite you to move to Las Vegas.
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  25. #25
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    I'm going to go a different direction with this. For background, my family moved here about 1 year ago, and we LOVE it (we're in SLC right by the U, so one of the least Mormon parts of the entire state).

    -Mormons are like everyone else in most ways and if you can handle the politics of the state being basically conservative and reactionary, you will be fine on that front. You will make friends, your kids will make friends, you will occasionally get bothered in subtle and not-so-subtle ways about checking out the church but nobody will twist your arm. So it's fine.
    -The riding is awesome. You already knew that.
    -The winter activities and snow are likewise awesome.

    But here's the downer - if you live in the valley (Provo is especially bad), you are going to suffer through the inversion. The particulate matter levels in the air are crazy bad and Utah has really high rates of asthma as well as autism, both of which correlate to some extent at least with the air quality. If your wife gets pregnant during the winter, you should probably leave for a while. Seriously, it's that bad. We're lucky enough that we've just set things up so that we can just leave and go out of state during inversion season but if you're stuck here, it's not good for your long term health or the health of your kids. I would think long and hard about it if your kids are very young or you're thinking of having more. Ozone levels in the summer can be really bad as well (and ozone is also very bad for your lungs).

    There is basically zero chance the situation will improve, too, due to a combination of poor topography, growing population, and very anti-environmental attitudes. Presumably someday autism, asthma, elderly people dying of heart attacks, etc. will force the church to take some kind of a stand on pollution but I assume it'll have to get *really* bad first. And until the church decides to do something, nothing significant will happen.

    So that's my take. I love it here 10 months of the year. The rest of the time I leave. If I did not have that option I would not want to live here.

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I'm going to go a different direction with this. For background, my family moved here about 1 year ago, and we LOVE it (we're in SLC right by the U, so one of the least Mormon parts of the entire state).

    -Mormons are like everyone else in most ways and if you can handle the politics of the state being basically conservative and reactionary, you will be fine on that front. You will make friends, your kids will make friends, you will occasionally get bothered in subtle and not-so-subtle ways about checking out the church but nobody will twist your arm. So it's fine.
    -The riding is awesome. You already knew that.
    -The winter activities and snow are likewise awesome.

    But here's the downer - if you live in the valley (Provo is especially bad), you are going to suffer through the inversion. The particulate matter levels in the air are crazy bad and Utah has really high rates of asthma as well as autism, both of which correlate to some extent at least with the air quality. If your wife gets pregnant during the winter, you should probably leave for a while. Seriously, it's that bad. We're lucky enough that we've just set things up so that we can just leave and go out of state during inversion season but if you're stuck here, it's not good for your long term health or the health of your kids. I would think long and hard about it if your kids are very young or you're thinking of having more. Ozone levels in the summer can be really bad as well (and ozone is also very bad for your lungs).

    There is basically zero chance the situation will improve, too, due to a combination of poor topography, growing population, and very anti-environmental attitudes. Presumably someday autism, asthma, elderly people dying of heart attacks, etc. will force the church to take some kind of a stand on pollution but I assume it'll have to get *really* bad first. And until the church decides to do something, nothing significant will happen.

    So that's my take. I love it here 10 months of the year. The rest of the time I leave. If I did not have that option I would not want to live here.

    -Walt
    That's a pretty sobering outlook Walt. My wife HATES the inversion (obviously there is nothing to like about it). And she's pregnant; due at the end of December. We live dead-between Big and Little Cottonwood very close to Wasatch, but that's not enough of an escape of course. We have a 3-4 year plan to live here, then we will likely move, for a few reasons and many of them are touched on above.

    I didn't dig too much into this thread but read some of the posts (but when any kind of religion gets discussed, it just gets so pointless I try to ignore it) - here is my take: I am not from here (Chicago, Vegas, San Diego, Vegas again, then here). I've lived here about 3 years now and it is a really odd city to live in (but obviously love what it has to offer for outdoors stuff). By far the most strange I've experienced. Utah County (Provo, etc) is Twilight Zone to me. But we rarely travel down that way.

    Downtown, Avenues, Millcreek, Sugarhouse, Holladay-ish - pretty neutral areas. But pricey for what you get (high price per square foot). Draper & Sandy have nice areas and more-for-your-money, but .. well, read previous stuff above.

    One major thing I have found culturally here: there is very little middle-ground regarding the people and their lifestyle. Utah County is the Mo' capital of world with their idealistic perfection, and Sugarhouse swings right back in the other direction. There just isn't much middle ground of what I would consider normal people (remember, I'm from Illinois, so this is just very different for me).

    (one super fun fact: Guy Kawasaki tweeted an internet traffic statistical info-graphic a while back - Utah draws the most internet porn website traffic than any other state in the US. By a huge margin. Epic.).

  27. #27
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    Inversion...hmmm...meaning the pollution is bad due to temperature layers, have to look into that. You do realize I'm coming from Houston, which has improved its air quality a great deal, but still has along the coast some of the worlds biggest petrochemical plants (google Texas City, Pasadena, Deer Park, etc.) We have asthma issues here too, but none of the recreational stuff!

    RE: porn - another interesting fact, my sister has played in various bands, many of them non-mainstream like Thrill Kill Kult and she says the Utah bookings were always the absolute top for enthusiastic audiences! I guess there is a lot of pent-up emotion.

    Thanks for all the discussion. It has helped. For me, its mostly a non-issue, I'm old fart and can hold my own with any religious discussion that may arise, I was mostly concerned about my kids about 9-13 yrs. We are active in Girl Scouts, soccer and school activities. I think actually it would be better than here, more to do. Here we have nut-jobs ( or I should say those I don't agree with) as elected officials - I live in old "Tom Delay" territory, and we have Rick Perry as Governor. People want to include creationism in the science books, put prayer in schools, and lets just say NRA loves Texas (not against guns as I own a few but this state is certifiably wacked).

    Having visited (briefly) SLC in 80's I was shocked to see Squatter's brew pub in recent years - and it was packed!

    Being close enough to ride few miles to a trail is mind blowing! And of course I'd like to get on snow as much as possible!

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    CLEAN Editorials- The Smell of Money

    Air quality here has actually improved a great deal in 10 years.

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    I'm a CT transplant and I would not live in Happy Valley (my father-in-law does). I live in Ogden and am very happy with the area. I agree with the "no middle ground" comment above though; most are very Right, or very Left in regards to politics. Shoot for SLC/Draper.

    Love the Thrill Kill Kult by the way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    I agree with the "no middle ground" comment above though; most are very Right, or very Left in regards to politics.
    Except very left in Utah is a moderate Republican, like Jim Matheson.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirkdaddy View Post
    Inversion...hmmm...meaning the pollution is bad due to temperature layers, have to look into that. You do realize I'm coming from Houston, which has improved its air quality a great deal, but still has along the coast some of the worlds biggest petrochemical plants (google Texas City, Pasadena, Deer Park, etc.) We have asthma issues here too, but none of the recreational stuff!

    RE: porn - another interesting fact, my sister has played in various bands, many of them non-mainstream like Thrill Kill Kult and she says the Utah bookings were always the absolute top for enthusiastic audiences! I guess there is a lot of pent-up emotion.

    Thanks for all the discussion. It has helped. For me, its mostly a non-issue, I'm old fart and can hold my own with any religious discussion that may arise, I was mostly concerned about my kids about 9-13 yrs. We are active in Girl Scouts, soccer and school activities. I think actually it would be better than here, more to do. Here we have nut-jobs ( or I should say those I don't agree with) as elected officials - I live in old "Tom Delay" territory, and we have Rick Perry as Governor. People want to include creationism in the science books, put prayer in schools, and lets just say NRA loves Texas (not against guns as I own a few but this state is certifiably wacked).

    Having visited (briefly) SLC in 80's I was shocked to see Squatter's brew pub in recent years - and it was packed!

    Being close enough to ride few miles to a trail is mind blowing! And of course I'd like to get on snow as much as possible!
    Re: Inversion - yes - the pollution hovers over the SLC valley sporadically during the winter months and it gets BAD. So bad, you can't see the mountains. Typically it will last for a couple weeks at a time from what I have observed, but I believe last winter it was nearly 2 full months (don't quote me on that, but it was way worse than usual). We spent a lot of time in Park City to get out of it on the weekend snow-shoeing.

    Definitely very little middle ground. We lived in Millcreek for a year and really enjoyed the area and our neighbors (but to purchase a home here, I just couldn't get what I wanted for my budget). But, that was middle ground.

    I am actually supposed to be in Austin right now (had to cancel my flight) - a friend of mine just moved there from Chicago. He built a new house backed right up to the "hill country". He has about 300 acres of wooded preserve loaded with trails, right out his back door. I've always heard great things about that city...and he's trying like hell to get us to move there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    ...Utah draws the most internet porn website traffic than any other state in the US.
    By a huge margin. Epic.
    Shocked not! LDS mandates of ALWAYS wearing undergarments, or that sex solely for procreation would cause this ^.

    Agree with most everything stated here, and yes the inversion is every bit as bad as Walt infers. Prepare for 26-27 degrees, and not seeing the sun for 2 weeks. Lived in Park City for 10 yrs, and during January/February while in SLC would often be asked if I just returned from Mexico. (skier's tan)

    Business climate has changed significantly since I was there, and my understanding is that preferential treatment is not so blatant. Yet be aware it does exist, and can be hard to overcome if RFP's, and job bidding is part of your career.

    Profiling is another consideration, which in UT is very real. Have one of the top 3 names in the phone book, am polite without facial hair, and always kept short hair. By doing so, found it easy to play the good Mo. "Why yes, my Uncle George is Elder of the Coalville stake house."
    This prevented a # of speeding tickets, and a few other nasty's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    Except very left in Utah is a moderate Republican, like Jim Matheson.
    IMO, I would disagree with this statement. SLC is very liberal (& I'm from CT). Rocky Anderson, 2012 gayest city in the US, and a large latino poulation. Granted, there is the LDS temple and the Jesus-Christ super store.

    It can initially be intimidating for new-comers trying to meet new friends. I moved here from Spain and had a harder time adjusting to the culture here than in Europe. Would I do it again-absolutely. Utah is a safe place to raise a family and the outdoor recreation is awesome.

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    Can you provide a citation for that? Utah DEQ numbers don't support what you're saying as far as I can see (I assume you're saying Utah's air quality has improved?)

    Data from DEQ is here: Utah DEQ: DAQ: AMC: Data Archive: Particulate PM2.5

    There is quite a bit of variation from year to year but the averages for PM2.5 have stayed pretty consistent. That's actually an accomplishment given how many more people live in the valley than did 10 year ago, but for at least a month most years it's unhealthy (or even dangerous if you've got cardiovascular problems or are pregnant, very young, or very old) to live here.

    There are plenty of people who are very into saying "yeah, it was way worse back in the day" but the bottom line is that the air is still too dirty for me to live here some of the time. YOLO.

    -Walt

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    Walt, was just throwing out there my current city, Houston, which was named #2 pollution city behind LA back about 10 years ago. Both LA and HOU have to some extent cleaned up their act and now its not nearly as bad....most days. But we get a lot of gulf breezes that spread it all over the midwest I think its still pretty bad if it stayed around. I worked in a chemical plant for a 2 years and when the cloud cover was really low in winter it would stink really bad (paper mill close by) and all the steam & very loud turbine pump noises, really seemed like hell.

    Again, I'm not anti-religion, I just choose not to, so I have no issues with folks as long as they don't get in my business which has not been a problem when going to Canyon's (granted not same as SLC or Provo).

    I'm sure I would have friends who share my keen interest in snow sports and biking, and if they are Mormon, that would be fine. just don't start recruiting me and the family.

    Well, have to see about that job if the offer comes our way.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by authalic View Post
    The fact is, a lot of Mormons in Utah feel that they own the state, and don't need to accommodate anything that conflicts with their religious values. You see it most often in the liquor laws which control drinking, bars, and restaurants, but you'll also see it in issues such as the management of public lands, education policy, support for gay rights, environmental regulations, etc.
    Sure, but point me to a place where the majority does not impose its will on local policy. I have lived a lot of places, and each of them have had a prevailing social/political theory that dominates much of the policy, activity, etc. Such is life in a democracy -- people vote for what they want, what they care about, etc., and have a right to vote according to their own morals, so long as their morals do not interfere with the rights of others in the same community.

    Regarding the infamous inversion, yes, it is not so great. January is my least favorite month of the year, in part because of the inversion and (mostly) because the inversion often is the result of a high pressure ridge that limits snowfall. So there is usually a 2-3 week period in January where the snow (comparatively) sucks, at least relative to other skiing months of the year. But we've had 3 healthy and happy kids born here who were in gestation during the inversion, and none have a 3rd arm or anything like that, so ... not having any respiratory sensitivities or anything like that, it isn't such a big deal to me.
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    Yes, because data is the plural of anecdote...

    It is risky to have kids in bad air. Your kids will *most likely* be fine, just like they will most likely be fine if you smoke or drink while you're pregnant. It's still taking a risk, and that's well documented. The air also affects lung and heart development over the long term, so it's fairly probable that your kids are a bit less able to effectively get O2 from the air than they would be if they'd grown up in cleaner air - and that's going to be the case for the rest of their lives.

    Here's a pretty good summary of the current state of knowledge:
    Air Pollution Impacts on Infants and Children,* UCLA Institute of the Environment and Sustainability

    Note that the *mechanisms* by which the harm is caused (you'll see numerous caveats to this effect) aren't understood but the link between poor health and air pollution is not in doubt.

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    Big positive of living in Provo as a non-Mormon will be that you'll pretty much have the entire trail system to yourself on Sundays.

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    If you are worried about the inversion, Heber.

    If not so much and want more amenities, SLC/Murray/Sandy.

    Just take the Frontrunner and cycle commute to Provo to do your part in curbing the inversion.

    The Frontrunner is fast, comfortable, has bike racks, and has wireless. I can work instead of drive.

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    Thanks for all the responses. One of those things where you get into and start even checking house prices and stuff, but getting cart ahead of horse as we have to get the job offer.

    I will have to check on inversion, how bad air quality is compared to other places. If anyone has a reference link handy. Houston also has a lot of asthma cases, Denver gets pollution too, LA...Chicago, DC, etc.

    The bias thing is somewhat worrisome if we do move as I was thinking of opening a car repair shop. I had known about that aspect even before posting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin_W View Post
    Shocked not! LDS mandates of ALWAYS wearing undergarments, or that sex solely for procreation would cause this ^.

    Agree with most everything stated here, and yes the inversion is every bit as bad as Walt infers. Prepare for 26-27 degrees, and not seeing the sun for 2 weeks. Lived in Park City for 10 yrs, and during January/February while in SLC would often be asked if I just returned from Mexico. (skier's tan)

    Business climate has changed significantly since I was there, and my understanding is that preferential treatment is not so blatant. Yet be aware it does exist, and can be hard to overcome if RFP's, and job bidding is part of your career.

    Profiling is another consideration, which in UT is very real. Have one of the top 3 names in the phone book, am polite without facial hair, and always kept short hair. By doing so, found it easy to play the good Mo. "Why yes, my Uncle George is Elder of the Coalville stake house."
    This prevented a # of speeding tickets, and a few other nasty's.
    You are an ass. Unfortunately, as discussed, there are quite a few of you here in Utah. Your type openly disparage Mormons in public and then blame us for discriminating/avoiding interaction with you and your children. I see you don't live here any more. Why keep tabs on this forum? Do you miss us? OR are you just surfing back and forth from your favorite porn site. As for internet porn, everyone knows Mormon girls are some of the best looking girls to be found. We don't need porn. If one is going to get stupid like you and stereotype, it would be the 40% of people in this state who aren't mormon (less good looking people) that are fueling that statistic OR it's a just lie
    www.24hrBikeShop.com 10% of your purchase price is donated to the trail organization of your choice!

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    If one is going to get stupid like you and stereotype, it would be the 40% of people in this state who aren't mormon (less good looking people) that are fueling that statistic OR it's a just lie
    Name calling, and this comment do not help your argument-just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGAmoto View Post
    That's a pretty sobering outlook Walt. My wife HATES the inversion (obviously there is nothing to like about it). And she's pregnant; due at the end of December. We live dead-between Big and Little Cottonwood very close to Wasatch, but that's not enough of an escape of course. We have a 3-4 year plan to live here, then we will likely move, for a few reasons and many of them are touched on above.

    I didn't dig too much into this thread but read some of the posts (but when any kind of religion gets discussed, it just gets so pointless I try to ignore it) - here is my take: I am not from here (Chicago, Vegas, San Diego, Vegas again, then here). I've lived here about 3 years now and it is a really odd city to live in (but obviously love what it has to offer for outdoors stuff). By far the most strange I've experienced. Utah County (Provo, etc) is Twilight Zone to me. But we rarely travel down that way.

    Downtown, Avenues, Millcreek, Sugarhouse, Holladay-ish - pretty neutral areas. But pricey for what you get (high price per square foot). Draper & Sandy have nice areas and more-for-your-money, but .. well, read previous stuff above.

    One major thing I have found culturally here: there is very little middle-ground regarding the people and their lifestyle. Utah County is the Mo' capital of world with their idealistic perfection, and Sugarhouse swings right back in the other direction. There just isn't much middle ground of what I would consider normal people (remember, I'm from Illinois, so this is just very different for me).

    (one super fun fact: Guy Kawasaki tweeted an internet traffic statistical info-graphic a while back - Utah draws the most internet porn website traffic than any other state in the US. By a huge margin. Epic.).
    Your an ass as well and would have trouble finding friends anywhere. I caught your other disparaging remarks towards mormons on utahmountainbiking.com. I feel sorry for your pregnant wife. You are really low on the totem pole when it comes to darwins theory of surviving and can't imagine you amounting to any type of success.
    www.24hrBikeShop.com 10% of your purchase price is donated to the trail organization of your choice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovemtnbiking View Post
    Your an ass as well and would have trouble finding friends anywhere. I caught your other disparaging remarks towards mormons on utahmountainbiking.com. I feel sorry for your pregnant wife. You are really low on the totem pole when it comes to darwins theory of surviving and can't imagine you amounting to any type of success.
    I have to agree with wookie. Yeah, I know I'll save you the trouble, I'm an ass also.

    I've lived in Utah for at least 45 years. I haven't seen too many disparaging remarks on this thread so far that aren't close to the things that I've experienced in this time.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

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    Re: Provo area, for biking, and non-mormon relocation - family - ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ilovemtnbiking View Post
    You are an ass. Unfortunately, as discussed, there are quite a few of you here in Utah. Your type openly disparage Mormons in public and then blame us for discriminating/avoiding interaction with you and your children. I see you don't live here any more. Why keep tabs on this forum? Do you miss us? OR are you just surfing back and forth from your favorite porn site. As for internet porn, everyone knows Mormon girls are some of the best looking girls to be found. We don't need porn. If one is going to get stupid like you and stereotype, it would be the 40% of people in this state who aren't mormon (less good looking people) that are fueling that statistic OR it's a just lie
    Thanks, and yes, to many I may reek of assholiness, yet my points are well-founded, and substantiated, whereas yours are purely ad homimem abusive.

    In the interest of the OP, and a chance to prove yourself not an extremist troll, please answer the following:
    If Mormon girls are so cute, why must you wear undergarments during sex?
    Why does UT (per capita) consume the most hairspray, and have THE highest # of single mothers on welfare?

    Please explain the tithe system, and how the business 2 business bidding process r-e-a-l-l-y works? (My past company has it's credit division in SLC.)

    While your at it please tell the tale of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, as some may find the Mormon's love, and acceptance of fellow man illuminating.

    Know it's hard to comprehend, yet I still visit friends there. Unlikely you & I would ever hang in the same circles, as you're far too labeling, and delusional to tolerate those who speak of truth based on experience.

    OP, I apologize for this, and can only hope that he/she can provide answers to alleviate your concerns.



    (by phone)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilovemtnbiking View Post
    Your an ass as well and would have trouble finding friends anywhere. I caught your other disparaging remarks towards mormons on utahmountainbiking.com. I feel sorry for your pregnant wife. You are really low on the totem pole when it comes to darwins theory of surviving and can't imagine you amounting to any type of success.
    Love it. You're not really representing your "tribe" very well here my friend.

    Look - if you are not from here, I'm telling you, this is one very weird city to live in. I can see how you are getting offended (and I apologize for that), but again, this is merely a point of view from those who are not from here and have not been exposed to the culture here since birth. The US as a whole (in general terms) views Utah has a very unique and odd society. Period.

    When I first moved here a few years ago I had a business in Park City. As part of my preparation I conducted a few demographic studies from a solid group of potential customers around the US. We asked for their input regarding their view of tourism to Utah. It all backs up my claims from above (and I will admit I was pretty surprised how many people stereotyped Utah and went as far as thinking they would be approached around every corner by the "local faith").

    Again, I'm sorry you get offended so easily - and yeah, like I said, I can see how. You're probably from here, and really stand behind your tribe of faith. Great. But ease up man and take in the point of view from others not from here. It's common and it is what many (many) people think of regarding the culture here.

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    I rarely post anything on forums but this really chaps my ass. I am LDS but grew up in AZ and it was a diffrrent experience to me how Utah mormons are. Clique-ish and uptight were words that came to mind. I too have been looked at differently because I am Navajo and Sioux and married a white girl. Most LDS people could care less what you do with your life.
    We can all find something negative if we look for it. Your experience will be as good or as bad as you make it.
    The one thing I can't stand is spreading bad information. I.E. we don't have to wear our undergarments during sex or all the time. We don't have multiple wives and I sure as hell don't want another one! We don't have horns. Our underwear is not magic. Ignorance or lack of understanding is more harmful than taking a few minutes or hours to talk to someone about. Just because you heard that your girlfriends sister had a friend that talked to a guy that dated his sister and she knew a girl that was mormon doesn't mean everything you hear is truth. If it really bothers you that much get educated about the subject and stop bickering arguing. ThatThere is more to life than who is right on the internet. That goes for anything in life not just religion. If anybody wants to talk you can pm me and I'll gladly talk to you as long as it's civil. It does not matter to me whether you are religious or not. Try to be a good person and set an example for your kids and others to follow.
    By the way Utah sucks. Snow is ****ty and so are the trails. Stay away!

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    Not LDS but there's some big BS here:

    The porn statistic that everyone quotes is flawed. It was from tracking credit card purchases. Meaning that Utah leads the US in buying internet porn, not necessarily just viewing it. They aren't more pervy, they are just suckers that pay for it.

    They do not need to wear the undergarments during sex. Or at the pool or mountain biking if they don't wish.

    Also I know two people who own different sex shops in Utah (why I have such friends is another story) and according to both of them, lets just say they don't have to be prude after marriage.

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    Re: Provo area, for biking, and non-mormon relocation - family - ?

    LOL @ posters here giving credibility to Mormonism via electronic data communications that are beamed up into space to orbiting satellites and back down to terra firma again.

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    Eh, when it comes to mormons, their are some real solid dudes (and gals). And some real jerks. Just like baptists, catholics, atheists, gays, rednecks, steelers fans, republicans, hippies, cops, bankers, hiptsters, skydivers, stamp collectors, teachers, skiers and, um, mountain bikers. While every place has it's own palette, the picture you paint with it is still up to you.
    I'm looking forward to regretting this.......

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