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  1. #1
    nrdbomber
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    New Mountain Bike Organization In Northern Utah

    There is a new mountain bike group forming in northern Utah called Northern Utah Mountain Biking Association (NUMBA). The mission of NUMBA is to advocate for, create, enhance, and preserve mountain biking experiences in northern Utah.

    One of the long-term goals organizationally, is to become a charter of the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA).

    The NUMBA facebook page will announce an upcoming meeting soon...

    New Mountain Bike Organization In Northern Utah-numba4.jpg
    We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

  2. #2
    YRG
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    But IMBA is trying to be bad for Utah by saying there is nothing more important in mountain biking than having 5 star hotel and restaurants, shops etc along with trails that are xc only and calls that a "gold level" standard. So I hope you will work to undue their blunder. Here we are working to get park city into the current decade of mountain biking, and IMBA comes along and tries to set our hard work back many years.
    We don't need anymore organizations that are bad for our trails. Good luck!

  3. #3
    nrdbomber
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    about

    I'm assuming your talking about this? I think you might be misunderstanding IMBA's notion of "gold level" standard.

    I'm honestly not trying to be hostile to your comment. I had to look up and research what's going on with IMBA in Park City. Thanks for the well wishes. There is so much going on in Northern Utah, but it's all dis-jointed and haphazard. This new organization NUMBA is all about trails... of ALL kinds!
    We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

  4. #4
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrdbomber View Post
    I'm assuming your talking about this? I think you might be misunderstanding IMBA's notion of "gold level" standard.

    I'm honestly not trying to be hostile to your comment. I had to look up and research what's going on with IMBA in Park City. Thanks for the well wishes. There is so much going on in Northern Utah, but it's all dis-jointed and haphazard. This new organization NUMBA is all about trails... of ALL kinds!
    Sounds good to me. I happy to help with trails. We need directional trails. Up and down. Up only trails help bikers not be such a nuisance to hikers. Pair that with directional down (not necessarily dh) and you start creating a better experience for all trail users. There is more solitude in the mountains. Less hostility, better safety. Most important, making a trail is an art form. Park city is in desperate need of artists, as we are stuck in a paint by numbers special ed class currently (with a few notable exceptions). Best of luck and I will keep my eyes open to see if I can help.

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    Hmmm...become an IMBA chapter so they can take 60% of all your dues/memberships/income, and then take credit for all your work? You're far better off NOT being a chapter.

    For the record: IMBA has done absolutely NO trail design or construction in Park City, and did nothing more than give the Gold Ride Center award after being asked to by a couple of locals. For an example of IMBA's work in Utah, see Rush in Draper.

    And what are the "notable exceptions" in Park City?

  6. #6
    nrdbomber
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    Once again, sounds like you misunderstand the purpose of the IMBA. In my many years doing mountain bike advocacy. I have been a member of the Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay (BTCEB) and the Northwest Trail Alliance (NWTA), both very much a part of IMBA, but both doing excellent work on the ground to improve mountain biking experiences.

    There's a point in which a person who rides mountain bikes realizes we can either continue being a fringe sport, and continue being marginalized by land managers, land owners, officials, and lawmakers, or we can broaden the activity we love to gain new riders, new trails, legitimate mountain bike areas, and mainstream appeal.

    ...but I understand if you feel threatened by all of this. It's not my intent to insult or alienate anyone. Quite the contrary, I believe that more people on mountain bikes and more trail systems, equals better access for those of us who have been riding for years.
    We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

  7. #7
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by 480rider View Post
    Hmmm...become an IMBA chapter so they can take 60% of all your dues/memberships/income, and then take credit for all your work? You're far better off NOT being a chapter.

    For the record: IMBA has done absolutely NO trail design or construction in Park City, and did nothing more than give the Gold Ride Center award after being asked to by a couple of locals. For an example of IMBA's work in Utah, see Rush in Draper.

    And what are the "notable exceptions" in Park City?
    Arcylon, DVD hustle ( or whatever they name it), trailside int. line (expert coming), rework of crazy 8's.

    I know imba only did gold award for PC and I know how it came about. The damage I perceive from this award is helping people believe PC is the pinnacle of mountain biking, when we are actually quite far behind the curve

  8. #8
    nrdbomber
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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    Arcylon, DVD hustle ( or whatever they name it), trailside int. line (expert coming), rework of crazy 8's.

    I know imba only did gold award for PC and I know how it came about. The damage I perceive from this award is helping people believe PC is the pinnacle of mountain biking, when we are actually quite far behind the curve
    YRG,
    I hope that some of the "perceived belief" that Park City is the pinnacle of mountain biking will give the issue more exposure, and thus more support to create a riding area that lives up to the designation.

    That is to say, maybe IMBA giving PC a gold level designation was premature, but might serve to push more mainstream businesses and land managers to attempt to help live up to that name! The mountain bike world, and outdoor enthusiast world in general, is now looking at Park City to see what happens. Good luck YRG, we need people like you who care about trails and advocate for greater support!

    ...oh yes, and Ogden, UT just raised nearly $20,000 for a mountain bike park within city limits... all with the full support of many outdoor companies, the city of Ogden, private land owners, and 400+ individuals who donated!
    We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

  9. #9
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    Can someone fill me in on how Park City is "behind the curve"? Having recently moved from CO I can honestly say that Mountain Trails and the PC area seem to be *way ahead* in terms of proactively building/maintaining trails and helping keep all users happy. Am I missing something?

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

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    "Am I missing something?"

    Squamish !!!

  11. #11
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    Does that mean you want a bunch of ladders and drops to ride? That stuff takes time, money, and a BIG base of riders willing to work trail maintenance. Or a ski resort plus some riders willing to spend money on lift tickets+lodging+food to make it worthwhile for the resort to do all that work for them. I think the numbers will get there eventually (resort riding in CO has really taken off in the last 5 years) but I don't think it's the responsibility of PC or Mountain Trails or the new NUMBA guys to cater to the desires of a tiny minority of users. For better or worse most people ride XC and that's where most of the attention/money/trails will always be.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  12. #12
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    nrdbomber,

    I just thought I'd share a little info with you. There are a number of organizations currently in the Ogden area:WOBAC, Ogden Bikes (city committee), Weber Pathways, and the Ogden Trails Network. There is a lot of work to do, but the area is already saturated with organizations. Companies, retailers, and individuals can/will only give so much before you see donor fatigue. WP is well established and has deep pockets; they also do a lot of good. Our organization (OTN) has deep roots and close city, WP, political, & FS ties. It is very time consuming too. I spend 1-2 hours a day planning, raising money, networking, etc.

    I applaud your efforts, but just know what you're getting into. Have you thought about joining an existing organization? The OTN is outdoor based, not just MTB (stronger together).

    I like Park City also. I don't get it either? We get a lot of people that complain about this and that, but then when you ask them to volunteer-nothing.

    -Darren
    Ogden Trails Network

  13. #13
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Can someone fill me in on how Park City is "behind the curve"? Having recently moved from CO I can honestly say that Mountain Trails and the PC area seem to be *way ahead* in terms of proactively building/maintaining trails and helping keep all users happy. Am I missing something?

    -Walt
    Walt,
    PC does some things well, like funding and maintenance. But we also fail consistently in some huge ways. For example new trails are cut (generally) in a shortest distance between two points method. Look at the straight line on Iron mountain and the new Pine cone trail. Deer Valley, our beloved only lift served dh (canyons doesn't count with only 300' of vertical) has not evolved since first constructed and is woefully behind the times. AND the new trails they cut (boulder and moose bones) are actually worse than anything else they previously had! (who ever built those, needs to be ashamed until they fix those). For Canyons, they are great until the user base grows passed 20 riders, then that is a huge fail. (respect to the builders hamstrung by corporate idiots). I can go on for pages, but I think dmar123 says it well enough to get the point across.

    Credit needs to be given to Basin Rec for being a standout amidst the mediocrity in paradise. Bob's basin, Trailside, Arcylon and more to come...

  14. #14
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    @walt ....not necessarily ladders and drops but directional one way trails would be a good start where you do not have to worry about uphill traffic and user conflict.

    I think that has already been mentioned numerous times so just echoing what others have said.

    If you could get a one-way down directional trail like the length of Pinecone to Spiro, but maybe steeper with some tech sections that would be pretty sick!! yes it would be nice if there were even a couple features built in.

    I think most of the mountainbike community rides xc trails because that is the only option most of the time.

    Teton Pass in Jackson Hole is another good example.

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    Interesting - keep in mind I've only been here for a year. PC seems like heaven to me because *bikes are considered at all* when new trail is built. In the front range of CO, bikes are basically crowded out of many trails at this point because the user density has gotten so high. Fighting bike bans consumes the vast majority of the time/effort of the trail groups there.

    With regard to the DH/gravity stuff, I agree that the options are pretty bad. Keep in mind that you have to build a rider base for that kind of riding like a pyramid - the more XC groms you see out there, the better, because some of them will get interested in more technical riding and drag their moms, dads, etc to the resort with them. They'll all buy snacks. They'll have a blast. The resort notices and IF you have someone smart and willing to take chances in charge, they'll start building trails to appeal to both the families and the hardcore 19 year olds who want to charge the 10 foot drops.

    It took at least 15 years for that to happen in CO with a much large base of riders (I was riding DH for pretty much that whole time and got to witness it firsthand) and only now are some of the resorts (WP especially) starting to see returns on investments made over a long time period. That is a hard sell to corporate in the best of circumstances, hopefully things will move faster here in UT.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

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    Got it! Absolutely agree that directional (up or down or whatever) is VERY good for lots of reasons - bikes can ride a little faster knowing nobody is riding up, hikers know which way to look for approaching bikes, etc.

    I think what you are asking for would require banning foot traffic, though, and that could be a hard sell unless someone is making money (ie the resort) selling lift tickets or something and is willing to segregate users. If the trails are built with public money it is usually impossible to ban any non-motorized users.
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  17. #17
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Got it! Absolutely agree that directional (up or down or whatever) is VERY good for lots of reasons - bikes can ride a little faster knowing nobody is riding up, hikers know which way to look for approaching bikes, etc.

    I think what you are asking for would require banning foot traffic, though, and that could be a hard sell unless someone is making money (ie the resort) selling lift tickets or something and is willing to segregate users. If the trails are built with public money it is usually impossible to ban any non-motorized users.
    Hey, we all agree! It should not be a hard sell because every user wins. Virtually every time I go out on foot a biker bumps into to me because they don't think they should get out of the way (sometimes more than once). If down is paired with up, everyone on foot will gladly take routes like armstrong.
    And for banning users, it is not impossible, it is already happening. (bob's basin, armstrong, arcylon). As long as we don't do something stupid, like mountain trails idea of directional trails (switching directions depending on day).

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    Yeah, the foot traffic will *tend* to stay on uphill-only-for-bikes trails - but you are always going to get a ton of resistance from hikers/trail runners (which most of us ALSO are, of course) to the whole idea of a trail they *can't* use. Trust me, I've been through this 100 times in Boulder when I was doing trail advocacy with the BMA (and before that BOA). Banning foot traffic is almost impossible - all kinds of opposition will come out of the woodwork as soon as you propose the idea in a public forum.

    Armstrong is a fantastic idea, though, and I love to both ride it and hike it because it's well designed and safe for everyone. If it could be paired with a couple of directional down-only trails (even if they weren't officially closed to hikers) that would be icing on the cake.

    I'm not sure how I feel about one-direction-only on trails like Flying Dog. It worked very well on one trail in Boulder (IMO) that had a lot of grade changes and blind corners (just like Flying Dog) but many people didn't like being told which direction to go and enough folks ignored the rule that it wasn't super helpful for a few years until the mountain bikers self-policed enough to get people to do it. Now it's VERY nice to not have to worry about a 30mph closing speed crash around a corner over a ravine!

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

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    It would be very nice to have more directional trails up here in PC. Flying Dog and Spiro come to mind first as every time I ride them I expect to scare the sh*t out of someone on the downhill. On FD, often that includes horses...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    nrdbomber,

    I just thought I'd share a little info with you. There are a number of organizations currently in the Ogden area:WOBAC, Ogden Bikes (city committee), Weber Pathways, and the Ogden Trails Network. There is a lot of work to do, but the area is already saturated with organizations. Companies, retailers, and individuals can/will only give so much before you see donor fatigue. WP is well established and has deep pockets; they also do a lot of good. Our organization (OTN) has deep roots and close city, WP, political, & FS ties. It is very time consuming too. I spend 1-2 hours a day planning, raising money, networking, etc.

    I applaud your efforts, but just know what you're getting into. Have you thought about joining an existing organization? The OTN is outdoor based, not just MTB (stronger together).

    I like Park City also. I don't get it either? We get a lot of people that complain about this and that, but then when you ask them to volunteer-nothing.

    -Darren
    Ogden Trails Network
    Wookie,
    Thanks for the reply. I searched around quite a bit looking for my local mountain bike trail advocacy group to join in Utah, but found none. WOBAC seems to be a very covert group? It's hard to find any info on them (I think there's a wordpress blog with a post from 2011?). They seem to have morphed into the Ogden bike park group?

    Ok, then there's Weber Pathways... again, an excellent organization. I've ridden multi-use paths (MUP's) that are only there because of the work of the Weber Pathways group. However, their organization focus' on paved MUP's.

    Then there's the Ogden Trails Network. I love the work this group has done... especially on the east bench area in Ogden. Just last weekend, they sponsored a great trail cleanup day that saw a spectacular turnout. This group seems to be lead predominantly by climbers. Now, mind you, very few outdoor enthusiasts in this area simply participate in just one discipline (hike, bike, run, climb, paddle, ski...). I understand that there is bleed over. In fact, some of these groups have players who are "members" of multiple groups. However, I don't see the Weber Pathways group pushing for/building mountain biking trails in the area. I could be wrong.

    Then there's Ogden Bikes? I'm assuming you mean the Ogden Bike Park group (they've done awesome work with the city so far). Again, a very covert group. There's no contact for them, and just a facebook page that no one seems to respond to (I've posted, but not heard replies). It seems like their focus is just on the Ogden Bike Park these days (A huge exciting project in and of itself). To be honest, I actually wanted to take this group specifically and expand it's focus from one project to about 6-8 that I have in mind in the area, but the Ogden Bike Park group seems to do everything behind closed doors with little open accountability. I think it's just that they have their plate full, but many of us gave them gobs of money, and the only info available on a joint city project, is a seldom updated facebook page.

    ...I guess when I go out with my shovel and rake, I just work on erosion damage and such by myself on the trails that I ride? I guess when I have a great idea about where to build a new mountain bike trail, I just contact the land manager myself about it?
    We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

  21. #21
    nrdbomber
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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    nrdbomber,

    I just thought I'd share a little info with you. There are a number of organizations currently in the Ogden area:WOBAC, Ogden Bikes (city committee), Weber Pathways, and the Ogden Trails Network. There is a lot of work to do, but the area is already saturated with organizations. Companies, retailers, and individuals can/will only give so much before you see donor fatigue. WP is well established and has deep pockets; they also do a lot of good. Our organization (OTN) has deep roots and close city, WP, political, & FS ties. It is very time consuming too. I spend 1-2 hours a day planning, raising money, networking, etc.

    -Darren
    Ogden Trails Network
    Wookie,
    I also understand saturation. I'm not trying to dilute anything, but bring groups together! Why have a disjointed band of efforts? If you know any of the individuals leading the Ogden Bike group, have them contact me! Their focus is too narrow!

    And yes, I know what I'm getting myself into... advocacy is the least sexy part of "trailwork." I was the arm of the BTCEB in the far east bay area that sat in on council meetings, land management meetings, spoke for trials, spoke against bicycle bans...etc.
    We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

  22. #22
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    If your interested in doing trail work in Ogden, I can help. I am on the Ogden Trails Committee. Half of us are MTBers. The guys you saw last weekend, included us. Check out my signature (I run the FB page). If you are interested in being a crew leader, I can help set this up. Right now we are pretty swamped with a few things, including our fundraiser (see my other posts). Email me @ dgiordano1@yahoo.com or ogdentrailsnetwork@gmail.com

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