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  1. #1
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    More wilderness designations for the Wasach?

    Mctweek, an MTBR member, posted this on another page. But since I don't know how many of you visit the "Trails and Advocacy" page I felt it worthwhile to make a posting here.
    There is a proposal to add nearly 30,000 more acres of the Wasatch mountains east of Salt lake city, to the Wilderness areas designations that already exist there.

    Read more at www.saveourcanyons.org

    If you look at the mapped proposal you'll see Desolation and Dog lakes as well as Mill D tr. are within the new proposals domain.
    Last edited by Shelbak73; 04-13-2008 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #2
    JMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelbak73
    If you look at the mapped proposal you'll see Desolation and Dog lakes as well as Mill D tr. are within the new proposals domain.
    I agree with some of the SOC party line, but I will fight this when it conflicts with established multi-use trails. Does anybody know who to contact to voice an opinion? Is it the Forest Service that currently manages these areas?

    JMH

  3. #3
    yelgatgab
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    Ah forgetit

  4. #4
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    SOC is national...

    SOC is well organized. I am from Salt Lake but now live in the Bay Area. I have seen SOC propaganda out here at least three times that I can recall. I even saw a Heli Free Wasatch bumper sticker once. They have good intentions but they are way, way over the top IMHO. Said the mountain biker AND backcountry skier...

  5. #5
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    Just write your govenor, congressman, and senator and tell them you oppose the wilderness designation.
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  6. #6
    Homer's problem child
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    You don't like what SOC is doing? Send them a note here:

    www.saveourcanyons.org/mail-rachael.html

    That's what I did. I wonder why they are so careful about not posting an email address? Only way to contact them is through forms on their site. Here is what I wrote:

    Hello,
    I am not a member of SOC. I have lived in SLC for over 3 years now after moving from Colorado where I spent the first 27 years of my life. I am anxious to learn more about SOC. I do agree with most of what SOC stands for but I am extremely worried that your policies are anti-mountain bike. I would like to know more about SOC's stance on mountain bikes and if closing trails to mountain bikes is a major focus of your organization.

    I can not support your other actions that I agree with (heli-free wasatch, watershed, resort expansion, etc....) when I know supporting those could just lead to me losing more trails that I enjoy biking. I am a strong believer that mountain biking when done right on well designed, maintained, and built trails causes no more erosion than hiking. I also see many trails more severely damaged by horses than any damage that could be caused by cyclists. Yet I see no focus of SOC to ban equestrians. The vast majority of the cyclists I ride with are very cautious about trail etiquette and maintenance and go above and beyond to be polite to other trail user groups and help keep the trails in good shape. I know this isn’t always the case with bike riders but in my experience this is the majority of riders.

    Please inform me on your stance on these issues. I am anxious to learn more and if I agree with you policies I'd be happy to become a member, donate money and volunteer my time. But if you are anti-mountain bike I am afraid this will not be possible.

    Regards,
    I'm not a fan of their bike policies for sure. I am for most of their other policies though (heli-free wasatch, watershed, resort development, etc...). Makes it tough, I can't support them until they relax their biking stance.

    Until then - Save us from Save Our Canyons. Soon no one will be allowed in the canyon unless they float in on a non-damaging cloud of smug.

    B
    Last edited by Bortis Yelltzen; 04-15-2008 at 08:20 PM.
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  7. #7
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    "Soon no one will be allowed in the canyone unless they float in on a non-damaging cloud of smug..."

    lol! Thats pretty damn funny...

  8. #8
    Chumley for prez!
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    I wrote a letter too. I think the hardest thing for me is that I don't really know where they stand as far as bikes are concerned. I just asked them for a straight answer. Because mtn. bikers represent such a huge group in the wasatch, and many of us are load and obnoxious, I just don't see this bill passing without our support. I'll write as many letters to senators/congressmen as I have to.
    Sad thing is that I agree with a lot of their policies, they just need to learn to negotiate with other interest groups imho.
    BY, perhaps I would be a little faster uphill if I had a cloud of smug. What must I eat to produce such a cloud?

  9. #9
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    Wilderness is anti-bike, so thus- SOC is anti-bike

  10. #10
    Err
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    This is very unfortunate. I have a hard time as viewing this proposal as anything more than bickering among trail users, who do not want to share the trails, thinly veiled as legislation to protect the Wasatch.

    The trails in these areas are very well maintained and much of that maintenance comes from mountain bikers. We need to make sure this does legislation does not pass.

  11. #11
    Chumley for prez!
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    from SOC FAQ:
    "What is SOC's position on mountain bikes in the Wasatch?

    While the use of mountain bikes does create potential user conflicts, there are well-established rules for the right-of-way on Forest Service paths. SOC believes that the presence of mountain bikes does not represent any irreversible change in the character of the canyons or mountains. Local governments and the Forest Service need to manage user conflicts. Using the best preservation tool at hand, SOC is actively working toward the expansion of the boundaries of the wilderness areas in the Wasatch and bikes are not allowed in such areas. Mountain bike enthusiasts, when they review SOC's wilderness proposal, will find that the proposed restrictions on mountain biking are minimal."


    I guess this sort of answers my question. Although I am sort of missing the part where increasing wilderness land will have a "minimal" impact on mountain biking in the wasatch.

  12. #12
    Grizzly
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    It's not enough to list the different animals and plants in the Wasatch, juxtaposed with the fact that the population in SLC is growing. Where is the data to show that these plants and animals are being impacted in a negative way? Propaganda groups like SOC love to make blanket statements about how animals are being driven out of habitat because of a human presence.

    Without permanent protection the populations of these sensitive species are at risk due to habitat destruction and degradation.
    Am I missing where this is actually demonstrated? Where are the studies, the numbers, the actual impact?
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  13. #13
    Err
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. welcorn
    from SOC FAQ:
    [INDENT]"What is SOC's position on mountain bikes in the Wasatch?


    I guess this sort of answers my question. Although I am sort of missing the part where increasing wilderness land will have a "minimal" impact on mountain biking in the wasatch.
    I'm with ya.

    Wilderness = No mountain bikes. Plain and simple. There's no minimized or reduced access options. It's all or nothing when you speak in terms of wilderness designation.

    I'm having trouble pulling PDF's off their website right now. Were you guys able to download them? Could someone email me a copy if you already have it downloaded.

  14. #14
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    Just in case, maps are here...

    http://www.saveourcanyons.org/curren...wilderness.pdf

    and here...

    http://www.saveourcanyons.org/curren.../wild_land.pdf

    Both are somewhat similar. If you have trouble downloading drop a line and i'll email them.

    This can't stand. Anyone got any ideas of how to counter it?

  15. #15
    Homer's problem child
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    Here is the response I got back:

    Thanks you for contacting us regarding mountain biking in the Wasatch.
    Rachael passed along your email and I am happy to address some of your
    concerns.

    We are not by any means anti-mountain bike group or really anti any user
    group, but rather an environmental group. Many of our members are mountain
    bikers as are many members of our board and staff. Since our beginning in
    1972, we have been dedicated to protecting the wildness and beauty of the
    Wasatch mountains, canyons, and foothills. Some of this work has been done
    at the county level, some at the city level, and then we also work at the
    federal level too. We seek to protect access to public lands while working
    toward the long term protection of those lands.

    When protecting lands at the federal level, it has been our experience that
    the best way to do so is under the Wilderness Act of 1964. This provides the
    highest level of land protection that currently exists in the United States.
    It is this act that guides the management of Wilderness lands. It has never
    been the goal of our organization to close trails to mountain bikes. Last
    fall, we carved out nearly 2,000 acres of our wilderness proposal in
    response to concerns about popular mountain bike trails from our membership,
    board, staff and other community members. We have also, for the past 5 or 6
    years, done trail maintenance on many mountain biking trails to help repair
    any damage done to the environment.

    As our wilderness proposal currently stands, 1.6 miles of the Mill D trail
    would be closed to mountain biking. Big Water, Little Water, all of the
    Wasatch Crest Trail (or Great Western Trail) and the segment of the
    Desolation Trail which connects dog lake and Desolation Lake all lie outside
    our current wilderness proposal. Mill D has been the hardest part of our
    proposal because it cuts the Mt. Olympus Addition in half, thus leaving a
    large portion of the proposal unconnected and under 5,000 acres. We have
    tried everything from a trail reroute to cherry stemming but those will
    still result in a loss to some of the most unique terrain in the Central
    Wasatch.

    As far as your comments regarding the damage of equestrian use in the
    Wasatch I would again say that we don't advocate or align ourselves with any
    user group. Equestrian use is permitted under the Wilderness Act of 1964,
    however, it is not permitted in the Salt Lake City Watershed. Our Wilderness
    Proposal is based on data gathered from Salt Lake City Public Utilities, the
    water manager for over 400,000 Salt Lake residents. We are hoping that
    between Wilderness designation and the purchasing of private lands within
    the canyons we can reduce the amount of pavement and protect our water and
    natural resources.

    I hope that you can support our work as we are very excited to be working
    toward additional Wilderness in the Wasatch. We are committed to relocating
    trails that lie within our wilderness proposal so that their will not be a
    loss in mileage to mountain bike trails in the Wasatch.

    I look forward to speaking with you again.

    Thanks again for contacting us,

    Carl Fisher
    Issues Coordinator
    Save Our Canyons
    I read it as "quit your *****ing, we are just going to make it so you can't ride one of the funnest parts of the Crest trail, you'll still have the rest, and an exit on odd days, but the Crest will be an out and back to mtb'er on even days". What they forget is that as far as I know Mill D is the only way off the crest back into BCC. So new pirate trails will emerge to replace the Mill D exit into BCC from the Crest. Causing further conflicts. They say they are going to build new trails so no mileage is lost. But that will take longer than it takes for people to cut pirate trails.

    My $0.02.

    B
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  16. #16
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    I agree that SOC have clearly missed some key points, though in fairness they probably haven't realized it. I would expect something more from a public interest group who claim to act in the interest of the "long-term good of Salt Lake City whose residents and visitors depend on these mountains as an escape from the hectic city". Simply asking for feedback would have done it.

    I actually think Carl's response is quite measured. But at the end of the day, let's not forget one simple thing: is commercial development around the Mill D trailhead really a serious issue? Is there ever really going to be a 7-11 at Beartrap or some Multi-level parking lot plans? No, the only reason to make this a wilderness area is simply to reduce traffic. Bike traffic, to be specific.

    The really unfortunate thing is that SOC have completely misjudged the will of the many dedicated bikers out here who will now be obliged to shuttle from Mill Creek to Guardsman's, thus greatly increasing car-miles and vehicle traffic in the canyon, a problem which gets worse every year (and, ironically, which SOC claim to be committed to alleviating but which they appear to have had little or no affect). And don't forget the problems at the Mill Creek end. Additional shuttle traffic, extra demand on an already insufficient parking system and of course increased potential for user conflict due to much heavier bike traffic.

    Nice going, SOC. To paraphrase another genius of planning who favors the unilateral approach and has his finger on the pulse of the people "Mission accomplished!" http://forums.mtbr.com/images/smilies/mad2.gif

  17. #17
    Talentless Hack
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    I will fight this as hard as I can. Once we give them Mill D they will take the Crest. It is just a matter of time. We can not let hateful hikers take our trails.

  18. #18
    Homer's problem child
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleWhiteCaveman
    I actually think Carl's response is quite measured.
    Agreed. I was pleasanlty surprised at the response as a whole. He put it to me as politely as he could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by SingleWhiteCaveman
    But at the end of the day, let's not forget one simple thing: is commercial development around the Mill D trailhead really a serious issue? Is there ever really going to be a 7-11 at Beartrap or some Multi-level parking lot plans? No, the only reason to make this a wilderness area is simply to reduce traffic. Bike traffic, to be specific.

    The really unfortunate thing is that SOC have completely misjudged the will of the many dedicated bikers out here who will now be obliged to shuttle from Mill Creek to Guardsman's, thus greatly increasing car-miles and vehicle traffic in the canyon, a problem which gets worse every year (and, ironically, which SOC claim to be committed to alleviating but which they appear to have had little or no affect). And don't forget the problems at the Mill Creek end. Additional shuttle traffic, extra demand on an already insufficient parking system and of course increased potential for user conflict due to much heavier bike traffic.
    Yep again.

    I also think it is crazy for SOC to say
    "We have tried everything from a trail reroute to cherry stemming but those will
    still result in a loss to some of the most unique terrain in the Central Wasatch." Hmmm, maybe we bikers like it because it is unique too.

    So in order to work around this SOC says:
    "We are committed to relocating trails that lie within our wilderness proposal so that their will not be a loss in mileage to mountain bike trails in the Wasatch"

    So I read that as "we are going to close an existing trail to bikes and then cut a new one for bikes" How does closing a single existing trail to some users and then cutting a new trail to all users minimize our impact on the environment? Now there are 2 trails to maintain and cause problems and have user conflicts on. Is the new trail goig to be in a similar area just outside the new Wilderness area? Or is it going to be along the Jordan river near the SLC Fairgrounds next to the homeless corpses?

    I don't know. I know they mean well, but they are just a bit over the top in my opinion. I am going to reply and point them to this thread so they can get a feel for what the local bike community thinks and try to correct us all if we are out of line.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  19. #19
    Homer's problem child
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Am I missing where this is actually demonstrated? Where are the studies, the numbers, the actual impact?
    Studies, numbers? Sheesh................come on man, this SOC thing survives on donations, you think that generates enough $$ to do studies and gather real numbers?

    Besides, 76% of all statistics are made up, 14% of all people know that.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  20. #20
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    Now we know we they were so intent on 'maintaining/dumbing down' the Mill-D trail with their 'trails commitee' last year. Figures.
    Last edited by AMMAROO; 04-16-2008 at 07:20 AM.

  21. #21
    Grizzly
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    The question I have is "why?"

    Usage of the canyons will not decrease. Car traffic will not decrease. And as has been pointed out, it may actually increase because of the enhanced need for a shuttle to ride the Crest and surrounding areas.

    Tourists will still drive up to the resorts in the summer, hikers, picnicers, bikers, horsemen... everyone will still head to the canyons the way they always have.

    The only user group effected by this proposal is mountain bikers. The Mill D area is already highly protected as a watershed. And highly regulated. Mountain bikers are already have limited access up there. If there are 120 rideable days on those trails, we are limited to 60 of them. 60 days a year, as compared to 365 for a hiker, who can access that trail any time they want.

    This seems to me to just be an attempt for another feather in SOC's cap. They want to add to the number of wilderness miles they have pushed for. It's what they do. And if it eliminates premium biking trails along the way, then it's that much better for them.

    Wether or not the wilderness area is needed is never even considered. In their minds it is ALWAYS, without question needed. They'd probably designate downtown SLC if they could get it passed.
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  22. #22
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    And designating an area 'wilderness' doesn't actually change the nature of the landscape or actually do anything to 'protect' it. It just outlaws mountain bikes.

  23. #23
    Chumley for prez!
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    guess who got an almost identical response to Bortis? Me.
    here it is:
    "Mr. Welcorn

    Thanks for contacting us with your concerns regarding mountain biking and
    multi-use trails in the Wasatch. Rachael forwarded me this message and I am
    happy to address some of your concerns.

    As you well may know, Save Our Canyons has always been a champion of
    preserving access to the public domains of the Wasatch all while ensuring
    the utmost protection of the resources that lie within. Over the course of
    the past few years SOC has been a lot of energy on the expansion of
    Wilderness throughout the Central Wasatch in order to protect lands from
    future development, protect additional acres that make up the Salt Lake City
    watershed, and to redraw Wilderness boundaries that are natural rather than
    political (where possible) to enhance wildlife migration corridors.
    SOC is an environmental group composed of a number of members, who represent
    multiple user groups, but all share a common goal of protecting the beauty
    and wildness of the Wasatch mountains, canyons, and foothills. Most of us
    agree that the best protection available is through Federal Wilderness
    Designation using the Wilderness Act of 1964 and we hope that we can get the
    rest of the community to see that as well.

    Our initial Wilderness Proposal came from the Salt Lake City Department of
    Public Utilities which was based on watershed data. At that time, many
    trails, popular to mountain biking, would have been closed to that use
    because of restrictions under the Wilderness Act of 1964. Since that time
    Save Our Canyons has taken steps to ensure that there is not a net loss in
    the mileage of mountain biking trails in the Wasatch. Last fall we made
    adjustments to our wilderness proposal to exclude popular mountain bike
    trails like the Wasatch Crest Trail, Little Water, Big Water, and the
    Desolation Trail. This was all due to feedback we received from the mountain
    bike community. There is however, still one area that we cannot seem to
    remedy which is the 1.6 mile stretch of the Mill D trail. That said, it has
    never been the goal of Save Our Canyons to alienate a user group from using
    a trail. We recently cut out nearly 2,000 acres of our proposal to allow for
    mountain biking on the aforementioned trails. We have also been a huge
    supporter of the Bonneville Shoreline Trail and have submitted many comments
    in favor of the "mountain bike alternative."

    We are currently working to create additional mountain biking trails to
    provide loop trails back to Guardsman Pass and elsewhere in the Wasatch. We
    sincerely hope that the measures we have taken thus far will help you
    support us in this endeavor as we need as many people as possible to get
    behind this proposal. I myself as a person who recreates in the Wasatch on a
    regular basis (yes, I have left my fair share of paint and blood on the
    spine) have been at times conflicted by the restrictiveness of the
    Wilderness Act. Thus far in history the Wilderness Act has yet to be undone,
    which is why we feel that these lands deserve that protection. As the
    population in the Salt Lake Valley continues to rise so will the demand for
    places to recreate, clean water, and places to find solitude and be with
    nature.

    I hope to continue this dialog with you and go over maps to see if there are
    ways to address your concerns, if we haven't already. I will happily answer
    any other question that you have, feel free to call me as well. Maps, with
    trails are available on our website www.saveourcanyons.org in the Wilderness
    section.

    Sincerely,

    Carl Fisher
    Issues Coordinator
    Save Our Canyons"
    The response I got seems a bit more bland, but equally measured, I think some of the paragraphs might be cut and paste. I can only imagine how many of these he does a day. At least he responded, and for that I give him credit. I agree with pretty much all above. One thing that gets me is that they can make concessions banning horses, but they can't make a concession that allow bikes.
    The IMBA has some general information about the issue at hand:
    "Wilderness often presents a dilemma to the environmentally conscious mountain biker. While most of us applaud the intentions of the Wilderness Act, we also believe that bicycles are an appropriate, muscle-powered activity that belongs in Wilderness alongside hiking and horseback riding.

    But why did bicycles ever become embroiled in the Wilderness debate? Note that bicycling is not mentioned in the Wilderness Act. The key provision often debated is in Section 4(b), which prohibits in Wilderness all motorized travel and equipment and allows "no other form of mechanical transport."

    What does the term "mechanical transport" mean? In 1965, shortly after the Congressional action, the Forest Service wrote formal regulations to implement the Wilderness Act and defined "mechanical transport" to mean a cart, sled or other wheeled vehicle that is "powered by a non-living power source." As of the year 2005, that definition is still law. However, nineteen years after the passage of the Wilderness Act, during the early days of mountain bicycling, the agency added a regulation that prohibits "Possessing or using a hang glider or bicycle." That 1984 action was one of the first to ban bicycling on public lands and by eliminating riding on approximately 25 million acres, it was also certainly the largest.

    Unfortunately, most Americans are not aware that bicycles are banned from Wilderness. This can create the impression that bicycles cause more harm to the environment than do hikers or horses. In fact, science has shown that bicycles generally cause about the same amount of damage as hikers and less damage than horses. IMBA has summarized the findings of this research, available at: imba.com/resources/science/impact_summary.html.

    When the topic of bicycles and Wilderness is debated by the conservation community, views are often split. The Spring 2003 edition of Wild Earth, a biodiversity and conservation publication of the Wildlands Project, invited six environmental advocates to weigh in on the issue. You can get a sense for both sides of the argument and those on the fence. (The article is linked from the online version of this toolkit)"

    I bet the president himself (an avid biker from what I have heard), doesn't even know that he can't ride a bike on wilderness land, neither do probably half of the senators or congressmen in washington (for some reason I sort of doubt they care). Banning bikes in 1984 was a bad idea and I think it's a bad idea now......Hang gliders on the other hand?
    You'd think the biking industry has enough money that they might have lobbyists, well maybe not.
    Last edited by mr. welcorn; 04-16-2008 at 12:01 PM.

  24. #24
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    I carried this discussion to another forum. I think it's important to get the word out. Here's a post I thought brought up some important points. If we fight to block this designation, or even change the boundary, chances of failure are much higher. Protection of this area isn't a bad thing, there just need to be some concessions for bikers, such as the designation of certain areas as National Recreation Areas, National Scenic Areas or National Conservation Areas...for example. I don't completely agree with his assessment of IMBA, but that's beside the point.

    Alright, I've officially gone overboard on this issue. I just spent 30 minutes on the phone with a representative from wilderness.org in Durango. He also happens to be the president of the Durango Wheel Club and sits on the board of Trails 2000. The fights down there over portions of the Colorado Trail and the Hermosa Creek Trail are pretty much identical to the proposal up here. They were able to reach consensus to keep those trails open to non-motorized mechanized travel.

    The conversation ran the gamut from the the intent of the original WA 1964 to common sense approaches to new land designations. From what I cold gather the WA 1964 is not open for re-interpretation as the forces behind it have uber deep pockets and fro the most part (and I agree) the act is a good one and does far more good than harm.

    The approach that worked for them (mtb'rs) was too take the stance that they too want to protect the areas in question, but that it cold be done without eliminating the most widely used trails while conceding the use of more obscure areas. To me that seems to make sense on all levels because, as was pointed out, what would the Wasatch look like if there was no protection?

    Mtb'rs need to segregate themselves from the typical motorhead stereotype (IMBA's major downfall) and organize into a far more green consortium along the lines of Trails2000 in order to better work with environmental groups. Being new to this area I am pretty ignorant to what the current state of cycling advocacy is here so enlightenment on that would be appreciated.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley
    Here's a post I thought brought up some important points.
    That'd be my post. I guess I'm here and there now. Just what I needed, another time suck. My wife is gonna kill me, again.

    So....I found this list of advocacy in Utah. Seems there is a need for something more along the lines of Trails2000 here.

  26. #26
    Homer's problem child
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    Quote Originally Posted by radnasty
    That'd be my post. I guess I'm here and there now. Just what I needed, another time suck. My wife is gonna kill me, again.
    Welcome! I'm UB over there and on a couple other winter related sites.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  27. #27
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    [QUOTE=mr. welcorn]from SOC FAQ:
    "What is SOC's position on mountain bikes in the Wasatch?

    While the use of mountain bikes does create potential user conflicts, there are well-established rules for the right-of-way on Forest Service paths. SOC believes that the presence of mountain bikes does not represent any irreversible change in the character of the canyons or mountains. Local governments and the Forest Service need to manage user conflicts. Using the best preservation tool at hand, SOC is actively working toward the expansion of the boundaries of the wilderness areas in the Wasatch and bikes are not allowed in such areas. Mountain bike enthusiasts, when they review SOC's wilderness proposal, will find that the proposed restrictions on mountain biking are minimal."

    Here's the way this reads to me:
    Mountain bikes create conflict due to right-of-way issues.
    Remove the "presence" of mountain bikes and reverse the change in "character" of our outdoor experience.
    Since local government and the Forest Service will not manage user conflicts in a way that suites us...
    We will eliminate this conflict by banning mountain bikes through the use of wilderness designation.
    And since mountain bikers are an ignorant group we'll add this last sentence so the'll think we've worked hard on their behalf.

    You know what happened to the mountain biking in the Uintas?
    "They" came up with an amicable soloution on our behalf.
    Let's not let that happen again. "Remember the Uintas!"

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    Wilderness is anti-bike?

    Wilderness is anti-bike? Come on, give me a break. Have any of you actually read the wilderness act? It is a piece of legislation and as such, has no opinions. It isn't anti bike or pro anything. It's a piece of paper. Now the people who worked tirelessly to pass it, and the people who continue to work to increase wilderness, they have opinions. Some of those folks may not like bikes, I suspect most of them do however. But they value the concept of wilderness and if that means loosing a bike trail, so be it. I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity.
    We as a society have no desire to stop making more of ourselves, and that means more of ourselves out there. Maybe it is time we look beyond our own selfish desires and begin to think of these places that give back so much to the quality of our life.

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    Sorry, you are wrong. Bikes are banned in wilderness, so therefore wilderness is anti-bike.
    Last edited by AMMAROO; 04-17-2008 at 10:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    And designating an area 'wilderness' doesn't actually change the nature of the landscape or actually do anything to 'protect' it. It just outlaws mountain bikes.
    I agree - the only impact would be to prevent mtb bikers. The ONLY possible other reason would be to keep the helicopter skiing out in the winter -- the wilderness designation would prevent that too.

    How mtbikes got lumped in with MOTORIZED travel is beyond me, but in 1964, they probably just didn't really know what mtbiking would become. Mechanized travel...what else is there besides a bike that falls into that category?

    Whacked.

    I've always hated the fact that horses can use trails that bikes can not. More impact - those of you who have backpacked in the Uintas will know this - big horse train with boxes of food/gear ... ridiculous.

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    I can't even imagine loosing the Mill D trail. This is by far one of the best mountain bike trails in the Wasatch. We need different approach to protect that land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    Maybe it is time we look beyond our own selfish desires and begin to think of these places that give back so much to the quality of our life.
    How do these areas inherently give back to the quality of our life? Just by being there? Just by existing? My life is improved because of the mere existence of some pristine wilderness? Give me a break.

    It improves the quality of my life because I venture out into that land. I use the land, I enjoy being among the trees, the mountains, the fresh air.

    Who is being selfish? The people who want to exclude 1 user group from usage so thier lives are the ones enriched? Or the people who want to still be able to use the area.

    Mountain bikers have been getting the shaft from political propaganda groups for years. We are seen as the black sheep of trail users. Despite the fact that bikers are out there building and creating new trails, maintaining existing ones, educating the public about proper trail use and etiquette. And despite the fact that our impact is less than that of horses and in some cases even hikers. Don't give me garbage about "giving back" to areas that enrich our lives. Bikers as a group are the ones who are most actively giving back.

    These areas don't enrich anyone's lives just by existing, as if some ethereal peace of mind transcends the valley knowing that "out there" is some peaceful lake with peaceful trees. It is in the act of using, and being in the mountains that improves our lives.

    ----

    In regards to the Wilderness Act and bikes. I believe bikes were banned in 1984, 20 years after the Act.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    Wilderness is anti-bike? Come on, give me a break. Have any of you actually read the wilderness act? It is a piece of legislation and as such, has no opinions.
    Welcome,
    I have read the wilderness act, and you are right, acts/laws don't have opinions. They state legal guidelines/rules. As such, the wilderness act prohibits "mechanical transportation". This has been interpretted by legislators to mean bikes/atvs/planes/anything mechanical. If you have read the wilderness act, you'll see this is in section 4c:
    http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?...sec=legisAct#5
    you can see the relevance to bikes here:
    http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?...misconceptions
    I'm not saying aren't entitled to your opinion, but did you really read the Act before you asked everyone if they did?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    The Mill D area is already highly protected as a watershed. And highly regulated. Mountain bikers are already have limited access up there. If there are 120 rideable days on those trails, we are limited to 60 of them. 60 days a year, as compared to 365 for a hiker, who can access that trail any time they want.
    The Odd-Even days apply to the Millcreek drainage side where dogs are allowed. The Mill-D trail is in Big Cottonwood (watershed, no dogs) and you can ride any day you like.

    Please correct me if I am wrong?

    Cherry Steming the Mill D and Desolation Lake trails sounds like an excellent compromise, read about it at IMBA:

    http://www.imba.com/resources/land_p...toolkit_7.html

    "Cherry-stemming, the process of cutting out a trail or road from surrounding Wilderness, is a fairly common strategy for accomodating motorized interests in current Wilderness bills. With a cherry-stem, motorized users can continue to access certain roads or trails even though they are now surrounded by Wilderness. There is no reason why this technique could not be utilized to protect bicycle access to some of our favorite trails. A cherry-stem works best on out-and-back trails to a campground, lake, scenic vista, or some other landmark. Wilderness advocates are receptive to cherry-stemming because it does not require allowing "non-conforming" uses in Wilderness. Bicyclists should consider cherry-stemming because it allows us to ride singletrack with Wilderness on both sides of the trail."

    JMH

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMH
    The Odd-Even days apply to the Millcreek drainage side where dogs are allowed. The Mill-D trail is in Big Cottonwood (watershed, no dogs) and you can ride any day you like.

    Please correct me if I am wrong?

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    Best post on "wilderness designations" that I have read in a long time. The same thing is happening across North America and it is a sham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    Wilderness is anti-bike? Come on, give me a break. Have any of you actually read the wilderness act? It is a piece of legislation and as such, has no opinions. It isn't anti bike or pro anything. It's a piece of paper. Now the people who worked tirelessly to pass it, and the people who continue to work to increase wilderness, they have opinions. Some of those folks may not like bikes, I suspect most of them do however. But they value the concept of wilderness and if that means loosing a bike trail, so be it. I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity.
    We as a society have no desire to stop making more of ourselves, and that means more of ourselves out there. Maybe it is time we look beyond our own selfish desires and begin to think of these places that give back so much to the quality of our life.
    The WA 1964 is anti-bike in so much that it bans the usage of bikes within a designated wilderness area. This in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, having the WA 1964 as the only means to protect lands that are currently enjoyed by a multiple of users (some of which are inherently more abusive than others) is an issue, especially when it is applied to an area that adjoins an urban landscape and is used by it's citizens. It's hardly a selfish act to want to maintain the use of limited recreational areas in an urban setting. SOC is seeking to prevent current users from using the lands that the SOC doesn't like. Plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    These areas don't enrich anyone's lives just by existing, as if some ethereal peace of mind transcends the valley knowing that "out there" is some peaceful lake with peaceful trees. It is in the act of using, and being in the mountains that improves our lives.
    You're wrong on both counts.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by radnasty
    You're wrong on both counts.
    I am right in how it applies to me. It is not enough for me to just KNOW these areas exist. I want to experience them. That is where, for me, the real improvment to my quality of life stems from.

    Perhaps I should have personalized my statement a bit more. But I would think we can agree that experiencing these lands is more valuable than just knowing they are there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by radnasty
    The WA 1964 is anti-bike in so much that it bans the usage of bikes within a designated wilderness area. This in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, having the WA 1964 as the only means to protect lands that are currently enjoyed by a multiple of users (some of which are inherently more abusive than others) is an issue, especially when it is applied to an area that adjoins an urban landscape and is used by it's citizens. It's hardly a selfish act to want to maintain the use of limited recreational areas in an urban setting. SOC is seeking to prevent current users from using the lands that the SOC doesn't like. Plain and simple.



    You're wrong on both counts.
    I'm curious, what current use of land in the wasatch does the SOC not "like" that they hope to restrict by designating Mill-D? In response to an earlier invitation I actually have read the WA ( http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?...sec=legisAct#5 ) and it states the intent as this "there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road ...there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area".

    I have no problem with that. I don't have much of a problem with "mechancial transport" being stretched to mean a bicycle (even though SOC and others agree that it has no lasting affect on the environment). However, I have a very serious problem with the fact that SOC is trying to justify disenfranchising a big section of people who love and use the wasatch based on a "need" to protect against roads, cars, aircraft, boats and shopping centers springing up all over Mill-D. Are those serious threats, or is SOC trying to find some way to kick out bikers because they believe we somehow cheapen their experience?

    SOC have my full suport in designating wilderness all over the Wasatch. They can designate my back yard if they feel it would help. I just wish they did it with a little more thought and don't try to abuse the WA. It was put in place to preserve lands and people's appreciation of them, not as a tool to achieve some elitist agenda.

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    Dabast has one post. I'm sure he is an SOC'er.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleWhiteCaveman
    I'm curious, what current use of land in the wasatch does the SOC not "like" that they hope to restrict by designating Mill-D?

    I have no problem with that. I don't have much of a problem with "mechancial transport" being stretched to mean a bicycle (even though SOC and others agree that it has no lasting affect on the environment). However, I have a very serious problem with the fact that SOC is trying to justify disenfranchising a big section of people who love and use the wasatch based on a "need" to protect against roads, cars, aircraft, boats and shopping centers springing up all over Mill-D. Are those serious threats, or is SOC trying to find some way to kick out bikers because they believe we somehow cheapen their experience?
    I am just giving my opinion based on the feeling i get talking with people involved with SOC, and what I read on other non-biking boards, so take it for what it's worth. I think the big thing SOC would like to get rid of is heli-skiing in the wasatch. I don't know if there is a hidden agenda to target bikes, or if we are just a side effect of wanting to be free of helicopters during ski season. I personally hate the choppers during the winter, and yes it does cheapen MY experience in the backcountry, not to mention potential safety concerns. That is for a different forum though.
    From my limited communication with SOC, the real problem is with the wording of the Wilderness Act. From what I was told you can't pick and choose what things you allow and what things you ban. If you want bikes you can't have a "wilderness" designation. Some people have brought up the idea that some of this "anti-bike" legislation is due to user conflicts between bikes and hikers, I don't know about the merit of that. From all I can tell it is just speculation and hearsay.
    In terms of solutions, I think everyone can agree with err that it would be a shame to lose any of the mill D trail. It truly is one of the best in the wasatch. I am wondering if it is possible to just designate the trail itself and 5 feet on either side as "non-wilderness". This would eliminate the ability of helicopters to travel there, while allowing bikes ( I think). The only downside is that it would break up the wilderness land, but perhaps I am missing the big deal there? Anyone on the SOC listening? If there was some hidden agenda (which I don't think exists) then they certainly wouldn't agree to this idea. Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleWhiteCaveman
    I'm curious, what current use of land in the wasatch does the SOC not "like" that they hope to restrict by designating Mill-D?
    There are two. Heli skiing and mtb. While there is clearly a need to protect the Wasatch it's idiotic to attempt to designate areas that see heavy recreational use on the border of an urban area as wilderness. The corridor from I-80 south to LCC should never even be considered for a wilderness designation. The reason the Wasatch is such an asset is because SLC residents have access to it. SOC's elitist myopic agenda is total crap. Wilderness Areas have their place, but it's not here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. welcorn
    .... I am wondering if it is possible to just designate the trail itself and 5 feet on either side as "non-wilderness". This would eliminate the ability of helicopters to travel there, while allowing bikes ( I think). The only downside is that it would break up the wilderness land, but perhaps I am missing the big deal there? Anyone on the SOC listening? If there was some hidden agenda (which I don't think exists) then they certainly wouldn't agree to this idea. Just a thought.
    Agreed, though i think in an earlier letter SOC claimed the "cherry-stem" approach didn't work. While they certainly are not obliged to explain themselves to us, they might get more support if they were able to explain why we couldn't pursue this approach. If SOC's proposal included a cherry stem on Mill-D I'd pay-up, become a member for life, put their fugly, busted stickers all over my helmet and eat my chamois.

  44. #44
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    If they Cherry Stem in Mill D and any other existing trails in their proposal, then they've got my full support. We don't need any more trails up there but we need to keep what we have.

    No cherry stem, then this needs to be fought to the bitter end.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    "Wilderness is anti-bike? Come on, give me a break. Have any of you actually read the wilderness act? It is a piece of legislation and as such, has no opinions. It isn't anti bike or pro anything. It's a piece of paper."

    I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity.
    Haha. This dude is hilarious. Obviously a SOC or pro-SOC voice. Nice to have their perspective, but they are obviously not the sharpest spoon in the drawer.

    So a piece of paper is going to protect places for "perpetuity"? How many civilizations have lasted that long? How many governments have lasted into "perpetuity"? Your basic logic is flawed if not at the very least short-sighted in the context of the global timeline. If it's just a peice of paper, the places protected by that "piece of paper" will only be protected as long as people give a fuk about that paper. And as history proves, that isn't going to be "perpetuity".

    So during my time on this planet, I'm going to fight to be able to ride the places I enjoy riding. That's right, it's all about me and my enjoyment right here and now.

    "Can't there be some things in life just for me? Is that so selfish?" - George Castanza

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    [I]I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity[/I

    How noble. Dude probably never rode that trail.

    IB1

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    As I understand it, when areas are selected for wilderness designation they have to meet certain standards. What these standards are I do not know, the one thing I can see is they do allow established trails. I can't understand why an established trail being used by MTBRs before wilderness designation cannot be grandfathered in for it's continued use. They grandfather logging and mining roads and "cherry stem" around their areas of operation. But something as inocent as cycling is eliminated asap, no question, no debate. Where the he!! is our support, why are all the bike mfgrs and component mfgrs standing around with their hands in their pockets?

    Idoit boy 1 isnt such an Idoit boy. dabast's drivle and that of Mr. Carl Fisher seem very similar.

    P.S. SOC feels the are in charge of the Wasatch from Wellsville to Mt. Nebo, so we may want to keep our eyes peeled for threats on AF canyon, Ben Lomond areas, as well as all points south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelbak73
    As I understand it, when areas are selected for wilderness designation they have to meet certain standards. What these standards are I do not know, the one thing I can see is they do allow established trails. I can't understand why an established trail being used by MTBRs before wilderness designation cannot be grandfathered in for it's continued use. They grandfather logging and mining roads and "cherry stem" around their areas of operation.

    Logging and mining are never grandfathered in. They are written into the WA 1964. Read it.

  49. #49
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    Damn!

    As much as I'm opposed to losing Mill D in the summer. I'm more opposed to losing backcountry only access to Silver Fork, Days Fork, Grizzley, etc... in the winter.

    Read more here. The wise Wizard of the Wasatch (www.wowasatch.com) has spoken. I don't want to lose any of this personally.

    http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...0&postcount=40

    This sucks. It's like choosing whether I lose my right nut or my left nut. I want both!

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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    ...and if that means loosing a bike trail, so be it. I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity.
    We as a society have no desire to stop making more of ourselves, and that means more of ourselves out there. Maybe it is time we look beyond our own selfish desires and begin to think of these places that give back so much to the quality of our life.
    It's a 1.6 mile stretch of the Mill D trail that is being debated, not the wilderness designation in general. It's not at all selfish to stand up and say "hey, I support wilderness designation, but I really enjoy using that trail. Isn't there some way we can compromise on this issue?"

    If SOC is TRULY concerned about wilderness designations, they would be happy to concede a 8,440 linear foot section of trail to win thousands of acres of forest without complaint (and with potential support) from the cycling community. If they won't compromise, it goes a long way toward showing that eliminating bikes from Mill D is a higher priority than simply protecting land.

    JMH

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    Quote Originally Posted by radnasty
    Logging and mining are never grandfathered in. They are written into the WA 1964. Read it.
    Sorry, I read Special provisions # 3. and thought it was similar to provision # 1.

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    They won't compromise, look at their statement for cherry stemming. We have to fight this, mark my words they will come for the Crest. It is a matter of time. There is no compromise with these people, because to them there is no differance between a bike, a motorcycle, a quad, a helicopter or a Jeep. We all must be eliminated. Already there is no dogs, no horse traffic, no sleds, no Jeeps, no quads etc allowed in that part of the Wasatch. What they want is NO BIKES. We don't need this designated as wilderness. Do you really think they are going to build another ski resort there or a 7-11? No they are not. The land is fully protected from development without this designation. Look to Montana if you don't think that is true. The Montana Wilderness Society has gone after hundreds of miles of trail in the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest. If you want to lose your right to bike learn to compromise.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    Wilderness is anti-bike? Come on, give me a break. Have any of you actually read the wilderness act? It is a piece of legislation and as such, has no opinions. It isn't anti bike or pro anything. It's a piece of paper. Now the people who worked tirelessly to pass it, and the people who continue to work to increase wilderness, they have opinions. Some of those folks may not like bikes, I suspect most of them do however. But they value the concept of wilderness and if that means loosing a bike trail, so be it. I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity.
    We as a society have no desire to stop making more of ourselves, and that means more of ourselves out there. Maybe it is time we look beyond our own selfish desires and begin to think of these places that give back so much to the quality of our life.
    If they were that concerned about the wilderness and not their own selfish desires they would be pushing to eliminate any human presence in those areas all together, not just that of the mountain bikers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dabast
    Wilderness is anti-bike? Come on, give me a break. Have any of you actually read the wilderness act? It is a piece of legislation and as such, has no opinions. It isn't anti bike or pro anything. It's a piece of paper. Now the people who worked tirelessly to pass it, and the people who continue to work to increase wilderness, they have opinions. Some of those folks may not like bikes, I suspect most of them do however. But they value the concept of wilderness and if that means loosing a bike trail, so be it. I'll gladly stop riding that trail if it means that those places will be protected in perpetuity.
    We as a society have no desire to stop making more of ourselves, and that means more of ourselves out there. Maybe it is time we look beyond our own selfish desires and begin to think of these places that give back so much to the quality of our life.
    Yea, kinda like "guns don't kill people, people kill people." It all depends on how it's used.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiot Boy 1
    Do you really think they are going to build another ski resort there or a 7-11?.
    While I agree with you on the other points, the threat of the existing resorts expanding is very real. I'm hesitant to believe "Brahlta" will expand much, but "Brobird" would spread like crazy if not kept in check.

    I am torn on this issue. Big time. My winter self is punching my summer self in the balls right now and vice versa.

    Either way my balls hurt. Maybe I should go see a Dr.......

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    I don't think this actually has a chance in H E double hockey sticks of passing. One, ski resorts are BIG business here in SLC and we all know what is good for BIG business is good for the State of Utah. After all the state moto is "Industry". Second Heli skiing, which I will agree is totally lame and for fat out of staters, is well entrenched. And well entrenched means moneyed, and moneyed means lawyers and lawyers means lobbyist and a few well placed campaign contributions will kill this hippy fantasy dead in its tracks. If SOC knew what was good for it's cause it would "cherry stem" Mill D and enlist the help of folks like us I like wilderness and have spent much time in it. But here is the problem, they won't enlist us. They said they won't. Don't misunderstand them, bikes ARE the problem.

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    I'm thinkin' it has a pretty good chance.

    But cherry-stemming only works for roads/trails that reach into but not all the way across a proposed wilderness area. A cherry stemmed trail is an in-out trail, not part of a loop.

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    Why doesn't SOC just drop that part of the proposal then? Where is the compromise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Damn!

    As much as I'm opposed to losing Mill D in the summer. I'm more opposed to losing backcountry only access to Silver Fork, Days Fork, Grizzley, etc... in the winter.

    Read more here. The wise Wizard of the Wasatch (www.wowasatch.com) has spoken. I don't want to lose any of this personally.

    http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...0&postcount=40

    This sucks. It's like choosing whether I lose my right nut or my left nut. I want both!

    B
    Here's an idea...why don't SOC just designate wilderness around ski areas if they're so worried about it, and drop Mill D? In fact, I'm sure a lot of people would be delighted with that. A lot easier to stomach because with ski area wilderness you aren't taking anyone's rights away, you're just limiting growth.

    I agree with others here. This has got nothing to do with ski areas and everything to do with cutting out bikers. The really outrageous thing, as far as I'm concerned, is the abuses of holders of patented mining claims in the Wasatch. Why aren't SOC targeting them? Probably because it's much more difficult work. SOC claim to be committed to protecting the Wasatch and people's use of it, but target the "little people" because it's easier to get success. A lapse in judgement, I believe; SOC are sniffing my chammy if they think we're going to stand for them acting unilaterally on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleWhiteCaveman
    Why aren't SOC targeting them?
    We are. And if you wanna help out, feel free to contact me.

    More to the point, if you're interested in getting in on the negotiating floor for this Wilderness bill - or interested in laying out some new trails - get in touch ASAP.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    More to the point, if you're interested in getting in on the negotiating floor for this Wilderness bill - or interested in laying out some new trails - get in touch ASAP.
    PM sent.

    The rest of us here are going to have to organize to fight this I guess. Bikers are unorganized. Mainly because we don't understand why people have to be pricks and territorial about this stuff. Why someone would want to exclude a non-polluting trail user from these trails is beyond me. It just makes SOC look like a bunch of self-rightous a-holes. Share and share alike is how I think about this stuff. I never knew I had to spend all my time fighting for my freedom to ride. Times are changing I guess.

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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    We are. And if you wanna help out, feel free to contact me.

    More to the point, if you're interested in getting in on the negotiating floor for this Wilderness bill - or interested in laying out some new trails - get in touch ASAP.
    Why do we have to work with you, are you the self appointed guardians of the Wasatch? Is your organization going to save the Wasatch? Seems a bit self rightous doesn't it?

    You don't want our input, you want us eliminated. You could easily work in an agreement to allow the trail to exist with bikes. I have worked with your types in the past, was a donating member of the Wilderness Society. I realized long ago that it reallly is a cult of hikers who strongly dislike the presence of anything not like them in there prescious woods. It is a group think mentality. What kills me is most of the members spend very little time in the backcountry. I strongly believe that these organizations love to push around the little guy, it makes them feel better about their lives. I will say this again, we must fight them, they will take more if we don't.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiot Boy 1
    Why do we have to work with you, are you the self appointed guardians of the Wasatch? Is your organization going to save the Wasatch? Seems a bit self rightous doesn't it?
    While I agree with you to some extent you need to remember the old saying " you catch more flies with honey than vinegar".

    They are organized and hence have a larger voice. In order to compete we will have to organize and work with them. It is a sad reality. If we can get WAFTA or the local IMBA involved in fighting this on our behalf I will sign up for both of those I guess. Up until now I always saw trail access as something other people were losing. Now it is personal and I guess it is time to get involved.

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    I contacted IMBA and waiting to hear back. I offer up my services to help fight this, hopefully with the guidance of IMBA. I'm unsure as how to proceed but proceed I will.
    James

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't WPG been dropping clients into Wilderness since...forever? I thought one of SOCs biggest battles was to prevent this. If I'm right (which is rare, I admit), this designation has little to do w/ Heli skiing except, perhaps, to secure future heli-free lands should they succeed in banning helicopters from Wilderness Areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    Well, I'm doin' my dead level best to make this designation happen, and I know a few of the people in SOC. Cherry-stemming Mill D won't work - it goes to the Crest trail, which is outside the proposal. WPG - whatever.
    Yeah, I've signed off on a few exclusions, reductions, compromises, giveaways & negotiations so far to keep this process on track. Dick still thinks he's entitled to White Pine, Onno still wants his road realigned so ev'ryone can redline it up to the Flagstaff lift, our legislators confuse the Wasatch with suthern Ootah ...

    So I'm lookin' for a few Wasatch mountain bikers who will actually do something.
    Like help lay out, design, support and build some five miles of high Wasatch mtb trail to make a better loop up there, from Deso to Guardsman.

    The USFS is negatively interested. Last time I looked for people willing to show up at an IMBA / SOC / USFS / WMC / anybody else who gives a damn / meeting regarding Wasatch trails - nobody could be bothered to even say they'd show up.

    So I'll try again. Anyone here interested?

    .................................................. ...................

    The meeting last year had nothing to do with closing anything, Baker.
    It was about getting the word from actual trail users directly to the Forest Service. They wanted input on all aspects of trails. From you.

    If bikers were any less organized, they'd be unicyclists.

    As for impacts - depends on how and where the trails are built.
    Well, if the trail work is anything like what's happened to Mill D, I'd say the environment is doomed.

    And, perhaps this is why nobody showed up. Aside from this thread, I didn't hear a word from the FS regarding input from the cycling community. What I did hear was that they were taking it into their own hands to "improve" Mill D, and they wanted our help. Pardon me, but I prefer not to **** where I eat.

    A climb replacing a DH, and additional mileage in Mill Creek are both insults to the cycling community. You can build 100 miles of replacement trail, and I can guarantee it won't hold a candle to that couple of miles down from Deso. You can continue to pretend that you're trying to work with us, and continue to insult us. Or, you can truly make an effort to work on a compromise, and get us on your side. You do that, and I guarantee people will "show up".

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley
    Or, you can truly make an effort to work on a compromise, and get us on your side. You do that, and I guarantee people will "show up".
    Name a time and place. I'll be there.
    Will you?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    Name a time and place. I'll be there.
    Will you?
    If what you want to discuss is the creation of new trails, I don't see the point. If you're truly interested in exploring options that will keep Mill D open to cyclists, then I think the appropriate thing to do would be to organize an official meeting between interested parties and advocacy groups.

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    I will be there. Seeing how we MTBers don't have a club house we will have to work out a time and place with SOC.

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    David,

    I've been involved with the TOC that is lead by Rachael at SOC. I'm part of WAFTA and I thought the whole point of that group is to:

    - Share ideas, input, and discuss conflicts
    - Pool resources for work days for volunteers
    - Inform each other of our individual groups goals and otherwise work together

    I've been to every TOC meeting since I was first invited. It doesn't really meet in the winter as far as I know, but this is something I'd be happy to discuss - whether there or with you.

    Please PM me with your telephone number and I'll call you.

    Thanks,

    Steve

  71. #71
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    Since David is actively posting and reading this thread, I will ask my previous question again.

    Why?

    What is the motivation behind this new proposal? Is there a significant benefit to be gained from pushing these additional lands through as Wilderness? How will the impact on the land change from what it is at now?

    Or, is this just a way to "target" bikers and heli-skiers? Why does SOC feel the need to target anyone? The Wasatch Front and surrounding areas already have a lot of wilderness area designated. I support the principles behind the WA of 1964. There are some areas that should be limited in their access. Keep the wild, wild. But why is there a need to push for more? Especially in areas that are so close to a large urban population.

    And isn't proposing new trail to be built counter-intuitive? Wouldn't building an additional 5 miles of trail have more impact on the area than the continued use of what is already in place?

    Is this less about actual impact and "saving the canyons" than it is about pursuing your chosen cause in life?
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    We are. And if you wanna help out, feel free to contact me.

    More to the point, if you're interested in getting in on the negotiating floor for this Wilderness bill - or interested in laying out some new trails - get in touch ASAP.
    That's more like it! Thanks for the offer, David. I'm a member of WAFTA and would like to see them first about organizing our efforts. Based on TheProf's response it looks like they're interested. In any event I will be getting involved. Perhaps you could post a link or an email or some other contact information?

    Alister

  73. #73
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    Steve, I think you're right. The next TAC should be in early May. I think the USFS has already settled on what trails need maintenance this summer, so maybe we can spend the whole meeting on Wilderness & MTB trails.

    Bag, James - the official meetings and advocacy groups have already been organized and done, and they'll be done again. And again and again and again.

    IMBA has been meeting with SOC on this proposal for a year or two now. At least Ryan would show up & talk, so we could get some input & adjust boundaries to avoid nearly all MTB trails.

    Both SOC and the USFS have been trying - for years - to find some group of MTBers who would provide some input from their point of view. A lot of MTBers won't touch IMBA because of their alliance with the BRC, so we try to include the MTB section of the WMC as well. I've even stooped to trolling internet forums for input.

    One more time: you guys wanna meet, name a time and place. I'll be there. I'll see if I can bring Carl along & you can call him names to his face.
    And we can talk about whatever you wanna talk about. Shoot, if you'll show up, I'll even cover the beer!

  74. #74
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    Gotta go right now, but: david.witherspoon@utah.edu

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    Sorry for the repition, y'all. I want to re-post at the bottom of the thread for David's attention.

    David is putting out a hand here. We moaned about not having a say. Now is our chance. Whether we are being co-opted or truely asked for guidance is something we can decide once we hear what SOC have to say.


    "That's more like it! Thanks for the offer, David. I'm a member of WAFTA and would like to see them first about organizing our efforts. Based on TheProf's response it looks like they're interested. In any event I will be getting involved. Perhaps you could post a link or an email or some other contact information?"

    Alister

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    Dave,
    Since when has anyone convinced you of anything? You have the reputation as being a know-it-all, stubborn, self-righteous, pompous ass who thinks he knows what is best and has the right to tell other people how to live their lives. You do it all of the time.
    What makes you think that people are going to think that negotiating with you in real life is going to be anything different than on the internet?

  77. #77
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    I don't have a clubhouse either, but if someone can offer a place, I will surely be there to discuss solutions. I think there are enough reasonable brains among the biking community (mine not included) that we can come up with some ideas. A meeting would be good to get more details. Things like, are there other designations besides "wilderness" that would achieve similar goals, but still allow bikes? I am just not well versed enough to know what other options are available to prevent development on this land. I'll do some more research on it I guess.
    I am torn like bortis on this one, because the winter and summer sides of me are at odds (Although I haven't gone quite so far at to punch myself in the nuts yet).
    As far as the cherry stemming goes.....I got this from SOC, and thought others might be interested:
    The problem is that it would not cherry stem, but cut our contiguous lands in two pieces. A cherry stem requires wilderness on 3 sides.

    The only downside is that it would break up the wilderness land, but perhaps I am missing the big deal there?

    This would indeed, break up the wilderness lands, hence disqualifying all lands that lie to the east of Mill D since is will then be a non-contiguous piece of land that is less than 5,000 acres. This land, is what we might consider “prime real estate” in the Wasatch. Most of this land is relatively flat and has existing private property.

    This is something that we have been struggling with for quite sometime. We were hoping that for the sake of the protection of lands, people would give up a portion of this trail and embrace the new section of trail that we are currently working on. The descent from Desolation Lake to the Junction where you begin climbing up to Dog Lake remains open in our proposal.

    Anyone got an idea for a place to meet? As far as time, anything works for me.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Since David is actively posting and reading this thread, I will ask my previous question again.

    Why?

    What is the motivation behind this new proposal? Is there a significant benefit to be gained from pushing these additional lands through as Wilderness? How will the impact on the land change from what it is at now?

    Or, is this just a way to "target" bikers and heli-skiers? Why does SOC feel the need to target anyone? The Wasatch Front and surrounding areas already have a lot of wilderness area designated. I support the principles behind the WA of 1964. There are some areas that should be limited in their access. Keep the wild, wild. But why is there a need to push for more? Especially in areas that are so close to a large urban population.

    And isn't proposing new trail to be built counter-intuitive? Wouldn't building an additional 5 miles of trail have more impact on the area than the continued use of what is already in place?

    Is this less about actual impact and "saving the canyons" than it is about pursuing your chosen cause in life?
    I'll try to save David some time. Here is an quote from an email I recieved from him today.

    In short, as I see it: the Mill D area of the proposal is in the
    crosshairs for big development; it is very valuable and rare habitat
    in the Wasatch; so it really needs Wilderness protection. Since it's
    too small to be designated as an isolated Wilderness, it has to be
    attached to a nearby Wilderness area, and the only way to do that
    would cut off the Mill D trail.

    There's a substantial private inholding in Mill D that was recently
    bought by an aggressive real estate development company, and the easy
    road access has already allowed a slow growth of random McMansions
    around that area. All it would take to open that up to more
    development is a flick of the pen by the USFS brass, and they obey
    their political masters. The gentle topography and healthy vegetation
    in that area make it very appealing to third-home buyers. For the same
    reasons, it's very valuable wildlife habitat - the richest part of the
    ecosystem, next to the creeks themselves, but also the most impacted.
    And some of the most loved by visitors.

    In the next twenty years, we'll see extremely strong pressures for
    high-priced development everywhere in the Wasatch - enough pressure to
    warp and eliminate the restrictions that have kept development down in
    the Canyons. I've seen it happen repeatedly here in the last decade.
    There's no end to the string of reckless multimillionaires working
    their way through corrupt politicians to get around every ordinance on
    the books, and all it takes to bulldoze an area is one lucky developer.

    If it wasn't for those facts, SOC would already have dropped that
    section from the proposal (like the Little Peak area). Mill D has come
    up many times in board meetings - SOC has many members who are
    mountain bikers, including board members. The final decision can't be
    made within SOC, so we're sort of punting on it - the final decision
    will be up to everybody who cares enough to get involved.
    In short we all need to get together and talk. David invited me to talk, I accepted but it might be good if we all get together as I am no mountain bike advocate and am not a member of IMBA, WAFTA, etc... (yet). I'm just a rider that is pissed at the thought of losing one of my favorite trails.

    B
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  79. #79
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    I'm telling you guys, Witherspoon is a scare-monger. He will use any tactic to get his way. Just research some of his posts at TGR. He' s pretty much the most hated person there because of this.You have been warned.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    I'm telling you guys, Witherspoon is a scare-monger. He will use any tactic to get his way. Just research some of his posts at TGR. He' s pretty much the most hated person there because of this.You have been warned.
    I know Dave and I know his history. I know him from telemarktips.com, TGR, etc..... as I post there as well as Unruly Baker.

    Simple reality is that he knows the system and is in a position to help OR hurt us. So it is best to figure out how to work WITH him. He's a nice guy in person. I sold him some tele skis. He will make a better friend than foe in the long run.

    My $0.02 on it.

    B
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  81. #81
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    If development is the key concern, there are alternatives to a Wilderness Designation. The area could be proclaimed a National Recreation Area, with provisions written into the act to prevent any future development.

    To quote from IMBA:

    This option reflects the notion that Wilderness is not the only way to protect land. A diversity of designations protect natural areas while allowing bicycle access. Like Wilderness, most of these designations prohibit the building of roads or structures, commercial timber harvest, motorized access and other resource protection measures.
    After doing more research at SOC it is clear they have a very real vendetta against Heli-skiing. I can't help but feel this proposal is a direct attempt to ban Heli-Skiing in the Tri Canyon area. Bikers are unintentional (or not...) collateral damage to that effort.
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  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    I sold him some tele skis. He will make a better friend than foe in the long run.

    My $0.02 on it.

    B
    So in essence he paid you off? Just kidding . I agree whole-heartedly. Who would you rather negotiate with, a real estate conglomerate, a privately owned ski resort, the USFS, or SOC? I know my vote. It isn't going to hurt to just LISTEN to what anyone has to say. And personally David doesn't really "scare" me unless he is 250# and knows brazillian jiu jitsu, then I am scared.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    After doing more research at SOC it is clear they have a very real vendetta against Heli-skiing. I can't help but feel this proposal is a direct attempt to ban Heli-Skiing in the Tri Canyon area. Bikers are unintentional (or not...) collateral damage to that effort.
    Anyone who backcountry skis in LCC and BCC has a vendetta against Heli-skiing in the Wasatch. I hate WPG. Almost more than I hate the thought of losing Mill D, but not quite.

    B
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    Hello all,
    I was informed of this discussion by one of the previous posters.

    I'm aware of the proposal and have been in discussions with SOC on the matter. We've expressed to them that IMBA will not support their proposal unless they exclude the trail or provide a reasonable alternative (like the Bear Trap Trail, which is also within their proposed boundaries), which they have not. My suggestion to you and the group is to start emailing SOC and your state representatives (cc me as well) and express to them that this is not an acceptable proposal and that they should work with IMBA to devise one.With over a million people along the Wasatch front it is unacceptable for any reason to loose a trail that has historically been used by mountain bikers. Congestion on other trails will only increase. Not to mention, the number of viable mt bike trails in the are are limited and many are on ski resort land which can be close at the drop of a hat as soon as the resort owners decide the liability is too much. We understand why they want to include the land up canyon from Mill D, but frankly we believe it's a reasonable sacrifice for them to make to get the mountain bike community on board for this proposal.

    Feel free to email me anytime at imba.utah (at) gmail.com

    Thanks,
    Ryan Miller
    IMBA Utah Rep.

  85. #85
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    This is am extremely tough one. The canyons are in no doubt facing enormous pressure for development. The existing curbs on future development (watershed, foothills protection overlay, etc.) did nothing to even slow down the Tavaci development at the base of Big Cottonwood Canyon. Losing Mill D would be uncool, but having another eyesore like that piece of crap in the Mill D area (or any where else for that matter) would be far worse, in my opinion.

    A lot more is at stake, as I see it, than one section of downhill trail. The thought of Alta expanding across the canyon to Flagstaff, or Dick Bass extending Snowbird into White Pine Canyon, or a Cul-De-Sac of McMansions going into Mill D makes me want to puke. Losing Mill D also makes me sick to my stomach.

    The question to me is this: Is wilderness designation the only way that we can protect the canyons from further development? Is there any other course of action which would protect that area (and the rest of the canyons from more development), but still allow existing modes of recreation to continue.
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  86. #86
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    Recreation Area. You could do wilderness to the Mill D trail followed by National Recreation Area on the other side. I think this would allow for the trail to go through.

  87. #87
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    NRA and NPA

    National Recreation Areas and National Protection Areas are very viable alternatives for this area that can prevent future ski resort development without closing a single trail.

    The fact is that wilderness organizations make there money by designating more wilderness so they never really seem to be too keen to consider other alternatives.

    My suggestion is to create your own bill and try to get it passed to protect the area as a NPA. This is what we are experimenting with in Idaho.
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  88. #88
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    National Recreation Area

    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook
    National Recreation Areas and National Protection Areas are very viable alternatives for this area that can prevent future ski resort development without closing a single trail.

    The fact is that wilderness organizations make there money by designating more wilderness so they never really seem to be too keen to consider other alternatives.

    My suggestion is to create your own bill and try to get it passed to protect the area as a NPA. This is what we are experimenting with in Idaho.

    Awesome. So how are you doing that. I was thinking we could take the SOC draft and substitute National Reacreation Area for Wilderness and be done with it. Circulate it around with a nice letter explaining how we would love to this trail to be available for mountain biking for future generations.
    James

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    [QUOTE=David Witherspoon]
    Both SOC and the USFS have been trying - for years - to find some group of MTBers who would provide some input from their point of view. A lot of MTBers won't touch IMBA because of their alliance with the BRC, so we try to include the MTB section of the WMC as well. I've even stooped to trolling internet forums for input.

    This forum has been here for years and years David. And as far as you having to "stoop" to trolling forums, I think quite the opposite has happened. Our forum began putting pressure on your proposal, pressure your org found they couldn't ignore anymore and forced you to recognize we are a threat to SOCs WP, and thereby forcing you to show your face and begin barganing. It's is easy to see by your condescending attitude the last thing you wanted to do was to have us all at the same table.

    Edit 4/19 I've withdrawn my decision to meet with with you, due to previous experience.
    You're one smart guy.(no joke) Way too smart for me.(no joke) You'll never compromise.(no joke) Ammaroo's right! Sooooooo right.

    This being said, I would like to add. I am in complete agreement with the idea of wilderness designation as a way to protect wild areas for future millenniums of generations. BUT as it's been stated here before, to religate a non-polluting, rider powered transportation device from trails is absurd, especially since our only agenda is to ride the trails and enjoy the beauty of the great outdoors. Membership in groups like SOC would explode if they were to work with us and have the ban on bikes overturned.
    Last edited by Shelbak73; 04-19-2008 at 02:02 PM.

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    [QUOTE=alizbee]
    (And isn't proposing new trail to be built counter-intuitive? Wouldn't building an additional 5 miles of trail have more impact on the area than the continued use of what is already in place?)

    It's not counter-intuitive when it's a lie used to placate.
    Last edited by Shelbak73; 04-18-2008 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahatmaguy
    Hello all,
    I was informed of this discussion by one of the previous posters.

    I'm aware of the proposal and have been in discussions with SOC on the matter. We've expressed to them that IMBA will not support their proposal unless they exclude the trail or provide a reasonable alternative (like the Bear Trap Trail, which is also within their proposed boundaries), which they have not. My suggestion to you and the group is to start emailing SOC and your state representatives (cc me as well) and express to them that this is not an acceptable proposal and that they should work with IMBA to devise one.With over a million people along the Wasatch front it is unacceptable for any reason to loose a trail that has historically been used by mountain bikers. Congestion on other trails will only increase. Not to mention, the number of viable mt bike trails in the are are limited and many are on ski resort land which can be close at the drop of a hat as soon as the resort owners decide the liability is too much. We understand why they want to include the land up canyon from Mill D, but frankly we believe it's a reasonable sacrifice for them to make to get the mountain bike community on board for this proposal.

    Feel free to email me anytime at imba.utah (at) gmail.com

    Thanks,
    Ryan Miller
    IMBA Utah Rep.
    Mahatamaguy / Ryan / IMBA REP.:

    Why, if you knew about this threat, didn't you post about it earlier?

  92. #92
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    [QUOTE=Shelbak73]
    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee

    It's not counter-intuitive when it's a lie used to placate.
    Exacty! It also shows that they aren't really concern with the 'impacts' at all. They just want to have the place to themselves and they will use any, scare tactic, excuse, or lie to get their way.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    What is the motivation behind this new proposal?
    New? This proposal is more than a decade old. The motivation is to protect the watershed and natural ecosystem values of the areas that would be designated, including the chunk between Butler Fork and Willow Fork, including Mill D North and Beartrap Forks. I personally place a very high value on the wildlife & natural vegetation of those areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Is there a significant benefit to be gained from pushing these additional lands through as Wilderness? How will the impact on the land change from what it is at now?
    As I said in my email above - that land got voted "Most Likely to Get Paved" in the yearbook. Salt Lake City Public Utilities drew up a proposal to make that area a Wilderness many years ago, to protect SLC's watershed, and still supports it today.

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Or, is this just a way to "target" bikers and heli-skiers? Why does SOC feel the need to target anyone?
    No.
    (1) Neither I nor SOC have the time to waste "targeting" anyone - let alone bikers, who make up a good chunk of our membership. Heli-skiing has been used as a tool to keep areas open for potential ski resort expansion - Wilderness protection is the primary goal.
    (2) WPG hasn't used those areas in over a decade. It's sad enough that someone would pay $200 a run to do laps on Little Water Peak, but Mill D? No, not even WPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    The Wasatch Front and surrounding areas already have a lot of wilderness area designated. I support the principles behind the WA of 1964. There are some areas that should be limited in their access. Keep the wild, wild. But why is there a need to push for more? Especially in areas that are so close to a large urban population.
    Precisely because it's so close to a large urban population. That's the reason you love it and the reason I love it - because it's right there, you can get there in half an hour, and it's as close to wild as you're gonna get near any city as big as SLC. But it ain't gonna stay that way without some heavy-duty protection.

    Mill D North has a lot of layers of regulatory protection on it - and I've seen every single one of those layers brushed aside in various developments in the Wasatch. Even when SOC was there, dogging the developers, ratting out the politicians, annoying the bureaucrats, and lining up lawyers. It ain't enough. When the pressure really ratchets up - when hundreds of folks whose annual disposable income is ten times SOC's budget start thinkin' they'd like a nice place in the mountains, except close to the city - you're gonna be biking past privacy fences and McMansions. If they let you get that close at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    And isn't proposing new trail to be built counter-intuitive? Wouldn't building an additional 5 miles of trail have more impact on the area than the continued use of what is already in place?
    Depends on where and how that trail is built. But if you don't want it, give Carl a call and tell him to quit wasting staff time on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    Is this less about actual impact and "saving the canyons" than it is about pursuing your chosen cause in life?
    That's not real friendly-sounding ... you lookin' for a flamewar?
    Last edited by David Witherspoon; 04-18-2008 at 10:11 PM.

  94. #94
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    Witherspoon,

    Why don't you reveal the name of the developer who is supposedly going to develop in Mill-D?

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    New? This proposal is more than a decade old. The motivation is to protect the watershed and natural ecosystem values of the areas that would be designated, including the chunk between Butler Fork and Willow Fork, including Mill D North and Beartrap Forks. I personally place a very high value on the wildlife & natural vegetation of those areas.

    As I said in my email above - that land got voted "Most Likely to Get Paved" in the yearbook. Salt Lake City Public Utilities drew up a proposal to make that area a Wilderness many years ago, to protect SLC's watershed, and still supports it today.

    No.
    (1) Neither I nor SOC have the time to waste "targeting" anyone - let alone bikers, who make up a good chunk of our membership. Heli-skiing has been used as a tool to keep areas open for potential ski resort expansion - Wilderness protection is the primary goal.
    (2) WPG hasn't used those areas in over a decade. It's sad enough that someone would pay $200 a run to do laps on Little Water Peak, but Mill D? No, not even WPG.

    Precisely because it's so close to a large urban population. That's the reason you love it and the reason I love it - because it's right there, you can get there in half an hour, and it's as close to wild as you're gonna get near any city as big as SLC. But it ain't gonna stay that way without some heavy-duty protection.

    Mill D North has a lot of layers of regulatory protection on it - and I've seen every single one of those layers brushed aside in various developments in the Wasatch. Even when SOC was there, dogging the developers, ratting out the politicians, annoying the bureaucrats, and lining up lawyers. It ain't enough. When the pressure really ratchets up - when hundreds of folks whose annual disposable income is ten times SOC's budget start thinkin' they'd like a nice place in the mountains, except close to the city - you're gonna be biking past privacy fences and McMansions. If they let you get that close at all.

    Depends on where and how that trail is built. But if you don't want it, give Carl a call and tell him to quit wasting staff time on it.

    That's not real friendly-sounding ... you lookin' for a flamewar?
    Thanks for taking the time to answer.
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilycook
    National Recreation Areas and National Protection Areas are very viable alternatives for this area that can prevent future ski resort development without closing a single trail.

    The fact is that wilderness organizations make there money by designating more wilderness so they never really seem to be too keen to consider other alternatives.

    My suggestion is to create your own bill and try to get it passed to protect the area as a NPA. This is what we are experimenting with in Idaho.
    Smilycook, thank you very much! Your input is always welcome.
    It seems IMBA has this same approach in mind. I've been mining through the USFS site in search the regulations for NRA's and NPA's to see their framework, but it's turned into a granny gear slog. Any tips or links you could share, by post or pm, would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks again.
    SB

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon
    I don't run SOC with an iron hand, so I can't just "take it out."
    Not that I would if I could.
    From another forum... "it" referring to removing Mill D from the WP.

    That kind of attitude is ridiculous. It is clear that a lot of mountain bikers would jump to action to help conserve and protect the Wasatch Front. But not when it is at OUR expense.
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    Wow! Nice expose' alizbee. Very telling.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by alizbee
    It is clear that a lot of mountain bikers would jump to action to help conserve and protect the Wasatch Front.
    The only reason that's clear to me is 'cause I know a goodly number of mountain bikers who are active members and supporters of SOC - and supporters of this proposal.

    Anyway, for those of you who care: Monday night between 6 and 9 pm. Email for location. I'll be there, maybe some others. Beer, questions, answers. If that time's not convenient, pick another and I'll be there too.

    If yer too scairt o' me, call the SOC office & bug them. If yer too scairt to actually talk to anyone, send 'em an email.
    (Keep in mind that "I'll never give you another dime!"* sounds kinda funny if you've never given 'em a dime before.)

    *True story.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Witherspoon

    If yer too scairt o' me, call the SOC office & bug them. If yer too scairt to actually talk to anyone, send 'em an email.
    (Keep in mind that "I'll never give you another dime!"* sounds kinda funny if you've never given 'em a dime before.)

    *True story.
    Can you be any more condescending?

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