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Thread: Mill Creek?

  1. #1
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    Mill Creek?

    Hi all,

    After a 2 week Dr. imposed layoff I get to jump back on the bike this weekend! I was thinking about riding up Mill Creek Canyon. Does anybody know how far up it's thawed? I'm looking for a good ride but I'm too lazy to drive all the way up to Antelope Island. If Mill Creek is still socked in most of the way I'm thinking about giving the trails behind the U a shot. Any other suggestions?

    Thanks,
    Earthdog

  2. #2
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    pipeline trail

    I just talked to my uncle and he said that upper pipeline is dry. He rode it a few times last week. Should be excellent. Anyway try it and have fun.
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by upendoed
    I just talked to my uncle and he said that upper pipeline is dry. He rode it a few times last week. Should be excellent. Anyway try it and have fun.
    Thanks for the update. I'll be heading up there tomorrow.

    Earthdog

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    Trail Update

    Trail Update:

    UTC trails are all in great shape.

    Mueller park has sudden heavy snowpack at the bridge above big rock (4.19 miles up). Everything up to there is good.

    Little Cottonwood is dry to the top except for a couple snow puddles.

    Lower BST is in excellent shape.

    I hear crest is still a bit sloppy though.

  5. #5
    Luddite technophile
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    You can take a peek at altaskiarea.com and check out their mountain cams to see how the snowmelt is going in the high country. As of yesterday - still looks like ski season. Some really nice tracks down High Rustler though.

  6. #6
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    Pipeline trail

    Hi there, this is my first entry into this forum. I rode the Pipeline trail tonight and it was dry be busy with people. I was wondering what people thought about the posted signs at the trailheads that state, "bikes yeild to hikers." I ask this, because I see very few bikes yeilding to hikers. It seems many mountain bikers ride the trail with abandon without regard for what's around the next corner--blowing by hikers. I too, would like to ride this trail like that, but I don't. I'm afraid someday the trail will get closed to bikes.

  7. #7
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    bite your toungue

    Quote Originally Posted by BriOCon
    Hi there, this is my first entry into this forum. I rode the Pipeline trail tonight and it was dry be busy with people. I was wondering what people thought about the posted signs at the trailheads that state, "bikes yeild to hikers." I ask this, because I see very few bikes yeilding to hikers. It seems many mountain bikers ride the trail with abandon without regard for what's around the next corner--blowing by hikers. I too, would like to ride this trail like that, but I don't. I'm afraid someday the trail will get closed to bikes.
    I too am deathly afraid of that eventuality. I rode Pipeline yesterday at noon and it was not too busy...there were more hikers than bikers. I always try to be extra courteous to the hikers because it only takes a few complaints to get a closure. I have hiked that trail with my kids before but I don't do it anymore because some bikers are becoming first class A**holes. These people are going to blow it for everyone. We already can't ride Big Water on odd days and I'm afraid we're headed that way on Pipeline too. This is a real danger because one trail closure impacts others. Pipeline is such a classic trail and so close to the city, but that means it will be crowded on occasion and some idiots are going to screw it up for everyone. I really wish we could defuse the situation right now by posting signs that require bikers to slow down and ride Pipe only one direction, top to bottom. Part of the problem is two way traffic. If everyone was going the same direction it would be better.
    [SIZE=1]If you cannot understand that there is something in a man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer.[/SIZE]

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    Rattle Snake Glush

    I rode Rattle Snake Glush last week without getting off my bike for the first time last week. I felt a sense of accomplishment. When I first started riding this trail, I was told to pop my my tires (getting some air) when going over drop-offs (with a little speed). This was bad advise for someone trying to just get through it. I've found that getting way back behind the saddle and slowly easing over the ledges gets the job done. I'm aware that speed is good on this section of trail. It's a little strange, but, a going through with some speed on RS Glush actually adds to the ability to control the bike.

  9. #9
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    Have you tried the alternate descent at Mueller Park? Will give you a whole new respect for speed control.

    When you can ride that all the way down without a dab, let me know. I wanna come take some pictures.

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    Mueller Park

    I've ridden Mueller Park about five times. I'm not aware of an alternate descent. I think Mueller Park is a lot like Big Water in Millcreek. I was not aware of any fast downhills. Let me know where it is and I'll give it a try. As long as it is not too over-the-top extream, I'll give it a shot. I can always hike the bike if it gets too technical.

  11. #11
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    I agree completely that mtb bikers need to give more respect to other trail users. However, I would not agree that we should restrict trail use to one direction, especially if the direction is DOWN. If anything, make the direction UP so that the lazy idiots who drive up millcreek can't ride down the trail. I feel this way for Pipeline because it is not a loop ride - it is just barely long enough if you ride the trail in both directions. Sun Valley has some trails that are directional, and that works fine because they are part of loops, so there is no real difference in riding one way or the other.

    The key to changing behavour is education. We have to spread the word. When we see a rider who doesn't stop, its up to us to take a stand and say something. (hopefully w/out getting punched in the eye) The signs that were in Little Cottonwood last year (by the bridge) are also a good idea. ( stressing the right of way issue ).

    Part of the problem with the Millscreek trails is that so many people shuttle the ride instead of ride the ride - this holds somewhat true of Pipeline as well as the Crest/Big Water. If some of the less courteous riders would spend more time going up a trail, they might gain a better appreciation for what its like to encounter other bikers and hopefully start riding with respect. (personal gripe! )

    Mountain biking is not an amusement ride at Lagoon - Until more riders accept that notion, we are going to have issues with trail behaviour. If all you want to do is go fast downhill, go to Deer Valley and pay for it.

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    I agree with most of that, BUT...

    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk
    I agree completely that mtb bikers need to give more respect to other trail users. However, I would not agree that we should restrict trail use to one direction, especially if the direction is DOWN. If anything, make the direction UP so that the lazy idiots who drive up millcreek can't ride down the trail. I feel this way for Pipeline because it is not a loop ride - it is just barely long enough if you ride the trail in both directions. Sun Valley has some trails that are directional, and that works fine because they are part of loops, so there is no real difference in riding one way or the other.

    The key to changing behavour is education. We have to spread the word. When we see a rider who doesn't stop, its up to us to take a stand and say something. (hopefully w/out getting punched in the eye) The signs that were in Little Cottonwood last year (by the bridge) are also a good idea. ( stressing the right of way issue ).

    Part of the problem with the Millscreek trails is that so many people shuttle the ride instead of ride the ride - this holds somewhat true of Pipeline as well as the Crest/Big Water. If some of the less courteous riders would spend more time going up a trail, they might gain a better appreciation for what its like to encounter other bikers and hopefully start riding with respect. (personal gripe! )

    Mountain biking is not an amusement ride at Lagoon - Until more riders accept that notion, we are going to have issues with trail behaviour. If all you want to do is go fast downhill, go to Deer Valley and pay for it.
    I think you may be heading too far the other direction. You can't make mountainbiking a pursuit reserved only for elite purists. You have to make room for beginners, casual riders and a few knuckleheads (read: "those who only want to go fast downhill") I think you are wrong to suggest that pipeline is not part of a loop. It is for some, who ride up the road and take pipeline down, like me. It is also a loop, or point to point ride, for those who cross into millcreek from big cottonwood via the crest or desolation trail. Don't tell me that anyone who shuttles a ride like that is doing something wrong.

    I think the problem with pipe is that it just isn't wide enough at most points to serve as a two way trail with all the use that it gets. I would like to see it turned into a one way trail (with the direction being DOWN) because that's the way 90% of us ride it. I don't believe it's realistic for you to think that people are routinely going to ride UP rattlesnake gulch. I bet you don't do it either, since I've never seen anyone do it without hike a biking at least a portion of it. With all that in mind, it seems the best solution is the one I proposed, even if it screws up your desire to ride against the grain. The way to deal with the knuckleheads is not to banish them to deer valley but to put some speed restrictions on and enforce them (all of us together, not the cops). Then they will go elsewhere to exercise their egos.
    [SIZE=1]If you cannot understand that there is something in a man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer.[/SIZE]

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    Point well taken. Of course you are much kinder than I, and more reasonable.

    I guess I still want to stick to two ideas:

    1) Making a trail one way, especially in a more downhill direction, just encourages people to abuse the trail. Doesn't it send a message that the good way to ride the trail is down - mostly because it is fun and easy? Let's put out the opposite message: its fun to slave and sweat up a trail - going down is your reward. I don't think it is too elite/purist to say so, even if it tends in that direction. (these are the "passion boards" after all!) If someone doesn't hold down the purist line, who will?

    2) By making a trail way one way, especially in the more downhill direction, you take away the challenge of riding the trail up-hill. I do ride up (not always rattlesnake, sometime coming on at chuch fork) and rarely ride the road all the way. I have almost cleaned rattlesnake going up, and certainly want the opportunity to continue trying. This is part of the trend to "civilize" mountain biking. My favorite example of this is the section of the crest trail where a few years ago, a tricky (but very short) rocky section was bulldozed into a much tamer version. What a load of crap. I looked forward to trying to ride that section each time I was on the trail because I never knew if I would make it. Why not pave the whole thing? That would make it much easier. Okay, I digress - the point is that I get worked up when things are taken away from mountain biking to satisfy the masses.

    When do we cater to the beginners and when do we cater to the elite? Perhaps that question sums up what we disagree on in a simple way.

  14. #14
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    Always, at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk
    Point well taken. Of course you are much kinder than I, and more reasonable.

    I guess I still want to stick to two ideas:

    1) Making a trail one way, especially in a more downhill direction, just encourages people to abuse the trail. Doesn't it send a message that the good way to ride the trail is down - mostly because it is fun and easy? Let's put out the opposite message: its fun to slave and sweat up a trail - going down is your reward. I don't think it is too elite/purist to say so, even if it tends in that direction. (these are the "passion boards" after all!) If someone doesn't hold down the purist line, who will?

    2) By making a trail way one way, especially in the more downhill direction, you take away the challenge of riding the trail up-hill. I do ride up (not always rattlesnake, sometime coming on at chuch fork) and rarely ride the road all the way. I have almost cleaned rattlesnake going up, and certainly want the opportunity to continue trying. This is part of the trend to "civilize" mountain biking. My favorite example of this is the section of the crest trail where a few years ago, a tricky (but very short) rocky section was bulldozed into a much tamer version. What a load of crap. I looked forward to trying to ride that section each time I was on the trail because I never knew if I would make it. Why not pave the whole thing? That would make it much easier. Okay, I digress - the point is that I get worked up when things are taken away from mountain biking to satisfy the masses.

    When do we cater to the beginners and when do we cater to the elite? Perhaps that question sums up what we disagree on in a simple way.
    Why can't we do both? I'm not trying to exclude anyone, and I'm not trying to civilize mountainbiking. I'm trying to keep people riding up pipeline from getting their clocks cleaned by a people coming down. I would never advocate bulldozing a trail, or putting in permanent protection on a rock wall either. But at some point you have to be willing to try something to fix a problem created by people, not nature. You don't see people riding UP porcupine rim for god's sake, everyone goes the same direction, to make the trail work better. That's what we should do on pipe. You can still ride up rattlesnake, just do it at night, that way it will be even more of a challenge.
    [SIZE=1]If you cannot understand that there is something in a man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer.[/SIZE]

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainDog
    You don't see people riding UP porcupine rim for god's sake, everyone goes the same direction, to make the trail work better. That's what we should do on pipe. You can still ride up rattlesnake, just do it at night, that way it will be even more of a challenge.
    Actually, I've seen a few people riding up Porcupine Rim. Just typically not on busy days...

    That said, feel free to challenge yourself and ride up Rattlesnake Gulch, or Porcupine for that matter. I do think, however, that it makes sense (just in your own self interest) to pay extra attention when doing so, and to try to do it at off peak times, since most people do not expect riders in the uphill direction in that section. Though evidently there are people who don't expect anything - since one time I was riding down Rattlesnake there was a family sitting among the rocks in the steepest section, eating sandwiches and blocking the whole trail. They said they didn't figure anyone could ride it in either direction so they figured it was a safe place to sit. I kid you not... Point is, you have to watch out no matter what you're doing.

    There are a lot of different user groups (even among mountain bikers) and it's a busy trail - we need to be courteous and apply some common sense in order to keep it open for everyone.

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    Well, with all the controversy, I had to go ride Rattlesnake today to see what the fuss was about.

    While I agree completely with the one-way only classification for Bobsled, and the fun way down Mueller is just too damn steep for anyone to ride, I have mixed feelings about Pipeline.

    Unlike Bobsled, you can see a good distance along most of the trail. Those blind corners you can't see around, you should't be bombing down anyway. There could be little kids or dogs around any one. I don't care what trail you're on, if you can't stop in the space you can see, you're riding reckless.

    Also, unlike Mueller, the hill is actually climbable. None of the drops would be a big deal going up. The slope is nasty, but not impossible. It's only half a mile after all.

    This a totally different situation from downhills like porcupine rim. A 20 mile point to point trail in the middle of the desert with very low traffic can pretty safely be considered a one way trail. A half mile section of a very heavily used trail on the edge of the city should be ridden with extreme caution. Even if it was a downhill only trail, you still have to watch out for stopped riders, wrecks and wild animals.

  17. #17
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    apologize

    No doubt. The quasi-urban trails here ( shoreline UofU, millcreek) can be hammered--uphill. Blow your lungs out going up, have a blast. but chill out going down.

    or the trails will be closed and we'll be reduced to riding riding state-street...


    later,
    g
    alive beyond recognition

  18. #18
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    I ride UP Porquipine, and I've heard from some 'locals' that is the correct direction. Personally, I think it is the funnest uphill around. It just requires a bit of common sense as to where to be extra cautious of people coming downhill, and not being an A$$ and sometimes getting off your bike and letting the downhill rider have right of way. Oh, and I do it on my 33+ pound singlespeed.

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    Well, rode up Rattlesnake this morning. Tough, but not impossible. Took about 20 minutes.

    To my surprise, I caught up with three other riders at pipeline who had just climbed the gulch as well. These were not maniacs, just strong riders looking for a good challenge.

    It does make good sense to ride it at off peak times, but to make it one way would just be ridiculous.

  20. #20
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    The Upper Pipeline is my afterwork ride and I love it. I get there early enough the trail isn't crowded and even though it's not that technical there is always some part that I can improve on. This summer it's the switchbacks.

    I try to represent MBRs as responsible and polite folks, but there is a contingent working against all of us. And it's other riders. I have literally been run off the trail going uphill by a pair of guys bombing downhill. I didn't have a chance to start my lecture on trail ettiquitte since they blew by me at warp speed. If we as a community can't even show consideration for each other, what chance do hikers have?

    The best thing I can think of to do is pull over, let them pass, talk to them in a friendly manner and leave them with the impression that it's only a small minority or bikers that ignore rules of the trail. And I've seen my share of idiotic behavior, and I've about lost track of the times I've crashed to avoid running over somebody's out of control dog.

    I think making a good impression and being polite is the best thing we can do to keep the trails open and the hikers and mom and dad and the kids empathetic to our cause. Cuz I've learned that there's a cadre to riders that just don't give a s#*$. It's their trail and god help you if you get in the way. They have no desire to change or listen to anybody and don't seem to care about the consequences of their actions. But I'm sure these are also the same people that cut me off on 215 on my way home. My 2 cents.

    Earthdog

  21. #21
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    agreed

    i too overcompensate with over politeness on downhills, perhaps
    compensating for all the wankers living on the so called eDge.

    perhaps its just cause i like climbing more than descending..?

    imagine a world where mountain bikers liked going up more than down....

    aggghhh--serenity...

    later!
    g
    alive beyond recognition

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    I totally agree about being polite and making a good impression. I always say good morning or afternoon or whatever, and thank them if they step aside to let me pass. I really do appreciate the kindness. I recently followed a hiker for a good quarter mile who simply refused to let me pass. There was no room to go around him, and he seemed to be ignoring my polite little bell completely.

    We just need to use common sense. I was riding up Mueller Park today, and this guy on a switchblade came smoking down the trail with a full face helmet, and a full set of pads. That's fine at a ski resort, but Mueller, like Pipeline, is a heavily traveled trail with poor visibility in many places.

    P.S. Stokey, I like your style.

  23. #23
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    Awww...you two make such a cute couple

    Quote Originally Posted by ClydesdaleSports
    I totally agree about being polite and making a good impression. I always say good morning or afternoon or whatever, and thank them if they step aside to let me pass. I really do appreciate the kindness. I recently followed a hiker for a good quarter mile who simply refused to let me pass. There was no room to go around him, and he seemed to be ignoring my polite little bell completely.

    We just need to use common sense. I was riding up Mueller Park today, and this guy on a switchblade came smoking down the trail with a full face helmet, and a full set of pads. That's fine at a ski resort, but Mueller, like Pipeline, is a heavily traveled trail with poor visibility in many places.

    P.S. Stokey, I like your style.
    I'm pretty impressed with all of you who can ride up rattlesnake, since I've never been able to do it without stopping, and believe me, I'm not trying to take away your fun. I'm just trying to prevent the inevitable clashes between different users. I thought that making the traffic all one way would be a possible way to do that because it seems that most people are already going one direction. If a significant number of people are enjoying riding up the canyon on pipeline, however, I guess that idea is a bad one. I'm glad to hear about those of you who are extra courteous, but let's face it, the knuckleheads don't read these forums (or can't read at all) so we're preaching to the choir. Until we find a way to change the behavior of the worst offenders, we will always be living in danger of trail restrictions or closures.
    [SIZE=1]If you cannot understand that there is something in a man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. If you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer.[/SIZE]

  24. #24
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    Glush......sounds messy :) (nm)

    Knowe Massage!

  25. #25
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    spock

    i agree with your point:
    other than a direct vulcan mind meld, there's not a lot of chance to change the mindset,
    little lone goatee of
    an eXtreme sene dude-zilla.

    the solution?
    education from birth?
    educational pamphlets (on the downhill-- ha the only ones who would get them
    would be the ones going slow enough to stop)
    systematically confiscate any front shock over 80mm?
    speed bumps?

    ultimately, i guess we just have to cross our fingers, and hope that a$$holes
    take up skydiving, bingo, badminton, reading..

    g
    alive beyond recognition

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