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  1. #1
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    Have you ridden Holly's trail lately?

    Someone put a lot of work in putting log and rock speed bumps on lower Holly's. So many, that the great downhill flow is gone. I climbed up Robs and went down Holly's and could not believe how bad it was. Part of it has been machined which i'm not against, but this trail did not need it. Anyone know why??

  2. #2
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    Guess I know now. Here I was accusing the canyons. Hey Wayne, Concerning Holly's, the trail is maintained by Snyderville Basin Special Recreation District. Being that it is a mixed use trail, the word is that the logs were put in for speed control. Hope that helps answer your question.

  3. #3
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    This must've just happend. I rode it two weeks ago and there wasn't any speed bumps/logs (other than bike-created braking bumps). Guess I'll have to ride it again before the Wasatch Enduro to see what's changed.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie B View Post
    Being that it is a mixed use trail, the word is that the logs were put in for speed control. Hope that helps answer your question.
    That should be perfect for the Wasatch Enduro!

  5. #5
    Err
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    Funny, I rode Holly's trail last night and was kinda scratching my head. It's an interesting version of speed control. Racing down that line ought to be amusing.

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    I'm actually re-thinking doing the Enduro now after riding lower Hollies on Tuesday evening. We have time to make improvements and I'm willing to help when in town but this part of the trail is no longer one I will go ride on a regular basis (as is).

  7. #7
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    Oh no, does anyone have a picture of what was put in...sounds hateful if Mr. AG is thinking of not racing over it.

  8. #8
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    Sorry I did not get pictures. contactus@basinrecreation.org is a contact. They do a lot of great work but this sucks!

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    Are we talking 4-6" logs or are they like tree size? I guess I need to go ride it...
    Check out my riding blog:

    http://onetrailatatime.blogspot.com

  10. #10
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    Yes, 4-6" logs and rock wedge like things. Looks like it took a lot of time to do.

  11. #11
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    Basin Rec petitioned the Canyons for Holly's to be a designated downhill (not "DH") route. They refused. They wanted it to remain a multi-directional, multi-use trail. Which is a HORRIBLE idea, considering that - since there's currently not a top-to-bottom DH run - a lot of the Bike Park traffic rides down the mountain by taking the Mid Mtn to Insurgent to Holly's.

    What they did to the trail was, to my understanding, at the request of the Canyons in order to reduce the possibility that a tourist hiker headed uphill wouldn't get creamed by someone exiting the Park by way of bombing Holly's.

    I know for a fact that Bob of Basin Rec didn't like this, but... You know. All of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time kinda thing.

  12. #12
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    Somethings fishy here....When I went on my rant with the Canyons they said it was Basin Rec's idea. Hmmm. Canyons needs to build a trail on the front side then most people would not go over to Holly's. Personally I think it's pretty boring on a DH bike. In the meantime it ruins the great Robs/ Holly's loop. Guess I'll have to bomb down Robs.

  13. #13
    JMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    in order to reduce the possibility that a tourist hiker headed uphill wouldn't get creamed by someone exiting the Park by way of bombing Holly's.
    Wider trails mean much lower downhill speeds. I think this is going to work really well for everyone.

    Crap, my Sarcasm Output Meter just broke again....

  14. #14
    YRG
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    Send an email Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie B View Post
    Sorry I did not get pictures. contactus@basinrecreation.org is a contact. They do a lot of great work but this sucks!
    Edit: this post turned out to be based on inaccurate info. Don't send emails to basin rec............../edit
    Please send an email quickly Darren is going over to talk to Basin Rec and if they get emails about this, basin rec will know this needs to be addressed
    I sent this:
    "Good Morning,
    Since this letter is an essentially a complaint, I should start with a list of things I appreciate.
    Trailside is awesome!
    Arcylon is too
    Basin Rec does so many great things, I really appreciate how you improve the quality of life here.
    So now that you know I am a big fan, I want to tell you about a problem. The speed control work on Holy's is a mistake. The main reasons are:
    Holy's (now called "flow killer") is the last run for the Canyon's bike park patrons. It will leave their paying customers with a bad taste in their mouths at the end of the day.
    Even with the speed control, Holy's is not a place for uphill traffic anymore. It is the only feasible exit for the bike park and even if signed, riders will ride it as fast as they can.
    The speed control work is not sustainable. Since it is already hated, it will likely be vandalized over and over as long as it is maintained.
    It could be a legal liability. If Basin Rec knowingly promotes and allows uphill traffic into a dh funnel, you are sending people into a high risk area. As much as I despise litigation in recreation, I think someone would have a legitimate argument when they get seriously injured.
    Holy's needs to be a downhill, bike only trail. Maybe there is a possibility of another Armstrong in the area. Armstrong is awesome because it gives foot traffic a beautiful trail where hikers can feel safe. Let's make more trails like Armstrong so we can make more trails like Arcylon. I am happy to help."
    Last edited by YRG; 06-19-2012 at 07:29 PM. Reason: bad info

  15. #15
    YRG
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    Bump,
    please send an email to Basin Rec

  16. #16
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    Email sent.

  17. #17
    Err
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    I spoke to Bob on Friday night about this. Couple bullet points.

    - Holly's is a multi-use trail on Canyons property managed by Basin Rec
    - Downhillers, both bike park and non-bike park have been using Holly's as a fast DH run
    - It's just a matter of time before someone gets really hurt
    - Canyons had previously planned to put in a dedicated DH trail this spring to move this traffic off of Holly's
    - Canyons has since changed their mind or delayed construction (not completely clear on this one)
    - Basin Rec was forced to try to go in and slow everyone down on Holly's to avoid a potential law suit
    - The solution is for the Canyons to build a one-way DH trail or to designate Holly's as a one-way DH trail

    For the Wasatch Enduro race, Basin Rec said they would fix up Holly's so that it could be ridden safely at full speed during the event.

  18. #18
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    The only point I really don't agree with is that it is Basin Rec's responsibility to slow people down on Hollies. That was a very natural single track that has been ridden for more than 10 years, well before there was a Basin Rec trail crew. We have always ridden it fairly quickly but in control. The trail was not built with any purpose in mind other than to enjoy the mountain (great descent from mid-mountain trail if you rode over from DV, best part of the ride). Is it Basin Rec's position that any natural trail in the greater Park City area now needs to be sanitized because the Basin Rec trail crew now exist? Is the County /City/Forest Service / ski resorts placing that level of responsibility and liability on them? I hope notů

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Err View Post
    I spoke to Bob on Friday night about this. Couple bullet points.

    - Holly's is a multi-use trail on Canyons property managed by Basin Rec
    - Downhillers, both bike park and non-bike park have been using Holly's as a fast DH run
    - It's just a matter of time before someone gets really hurt
    - Canyons had previously planned to put in a dedicated DH trail this spring to move this traffic off of Holly's
    - Canyons has since changed their mind or delayed construction (not completely clear on this one)
    - Basin Rec was forced to try to go in and slow everyone down on Holly's to avoid a potential law suit
    - The solution is for the Canyons to build a one-way DH trail or to designate Holly's as a one-way DH trail

    For the Wasatch Enduro race, Basin Rec said they would fix up Holly's so that it could be ridden safely at full speed during the event.
    Thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear that they will be improving the trail for the Enduro. I rode it a couple weeks ago while they were working on it, and between the loose, dug up soil and the speed bumps I can foresee some epic crashes unless they do something to improve the flow in those sections.

  20. #20
    Err
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    I don't want to speak too much for Basin Rec or the Canyons who are the ones in the drivers seat here. But, my understanding is similar to yours, Holly's has been known as a good fun, fast downhill for many years. I've heard from many people who absolutely loved it. The thing that changed was that the Canyons built a bike park above it. The amount of traffic that is flying down that trail has increased considerably and with it, the risk for a serious injury. The risk was always there, now it's greater. That's all. I don't think this scenario applies to other trails in the area and I'm not getting the sense that there's any agenda to "sanitize" or otherwise alter other well loved descents in the area.

    It's a bummer that it came to this but I think it will ultimately result in some pretty sweet options. In the mean time, well, I descended Holly's again last night, and yeah, it's painful.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Altagirl View Post
    Email sent.
    Ditto.... although mine was short and sweet. "Please remove speed bump/flow killers from bottom of Holly's. I believe Holly's would be best as a downhill directional trail."

  22. #22
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    I built the original Holly's over 15 years ago. It was built to serve as the downhill portion of an XC race, promoted by Holly Flanders. It worked very well for the race and, quite honestly, at that time nobody imagined it would continue to function as it has. Lots has happened at Canyons (and Wolf Mountain) since, all without any master plan. The type and number of users have changed dramatically in the area, and Canyons knows it now has a problem. I have proposed a solution (more below), and hopefully it will be adopted this season.

    Generally speaking, Basin Recreation is not in the business of building trails. They are a managing entity, easement holder, and maintainer. (Bob's official title is "Trails Maintenance Supervisor.") They have built a few trails on land owned or controlled by the District (Bob's Basin, Arcylon, Bad Apple), but most have been built by others. The Trailside Bike Park was built by Progressive Trail Design (with help from Alpine Trails), and Alpine Trails built most of the others in the area.

    Alpine Trails built Armstrong for Park City. It's not located in the jurisdictional area of Basin Recreation, and is not considered part of their system. If riders would like to see an "Armstrong-like" trail built on Canyons property, then Canyons will be the ones to approve it. Simply put, Basin Rec has no authority to build anything on Canyons land without their approval.

    Alpine proposed an up trail similar to Armstrong last year (from the base all the way up to High Meadow), but Canyons has not given the green light for construction. Input from interested riders would likely help make it happen, and if it does, Holly's would be freed up to go back to how it was, or possibly be turned into a true DH. There are good people at Canyons, and they want to create a good trail system. They have significant financial and land use constraints that don't allow them to do everything they'd like to do, so we have to be patient with the process. Ultimately, though, I think they will approve some new trails, but it may not happen right away.

    Finally, there is a lot of misunderstanding about liability and trails. It's simply untrue for anyone to suggest that Basin Rec was "forced" to go in and do anything to dramatically change the condition of a trail that has been pretty much as it is now for over a decade. To claim that the work was done to limit liability or reduce the chance of a lawsuit is quite a stretch. In reality, it just provides a convenient excuse to do work on the trail. In the legal world, I believe many would argue that placing obstacles creates a far greater level of potential liability than simply leaving the trail as it was.

    Troy Duffin
    Alpine Trails, Inc.
    Last edited by 480rider; 06-18-2012 at 07:55 PM.

  23. #23
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    Canyons puts in a top to bottom DH run = problem solved

  24. #24
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    And to add to that dmar123, put that DH run on the front side where the gondola is already running. Then you won't need to run the Shortcut lift which would save the canyons money. Also make different trails for hikers in the bike park area. DV does it, Whistler does it as well.

  25. #25
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    ^^yes !!... you would figure its a no brainer, Im baffled as to why they dont have a top to bottom run down the front side....I dont get it

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