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  1. #1
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    Have you ridden Holly's trail lately?

    Someone put a lot of work in putting log and rock speed bumps on lower Holly's. So many, that the great downhill flow is gone. I climbed up Robs and went down Holly's and could not believe how bad it was. Part of it has been machined which i'm not against, but this trail did not need it. Anyone know why??

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    Guess I know now. Here I was accusing the canyons. Hey Wayne, Concerning Holly's, the trail is maintained by Snyderville Basin Special Recreation District. Being that it is a mixed use trail, the word is that the logs were put in for speed control. Hope that helps answer your question.

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    This must've just happend. I rode it two weeks ago and there wasn't any speed bumps/logs (other than bike-created braking bumps). Guess I'll have to ride it again before the Wasatch Enduro to see what's changed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie B View Post
    Being that it is a mixed use trail, the word is that the logs were put in for speed control. Hope that helps answer your question.
    That should be perfect for the Wasatch Enduro!

  5. #5
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    Funny, I rode Holly's trail last night and was kinda scratching my head. It's an interesting version of speed control. Racing down that line ought to be amusing.

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    I'm actually re-thinking doing the Enduro now after riding lower Hollies on Tuesday evening. We have time to make improvements and I'm willing to help when in town but this part of the trail is no longer one I will go ride on a regular basis (as is).

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    Oh no, does anyone have a picture of what was put in...sounds hateful if Mr. AG is thinking of not racing over it.

  8. #8
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    Sorry I did not get pictures. contactus@basinrecreation.org is a contact. They do a lot of great work but this sucks!

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    Are we talking 4-6" logs or are they like tree size? I guess I need to go ride it...
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  10. #10
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    Yes, 4-6" logs and rock wedge like things. Looks like it took a lot of time to do.

  11. #11
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    Basin Rec petitioned the Canyons for Holly's to be a designated downhill (not "DH") route. They refused. They wanted it to remain a multi-directional, multi-use trail. Which is a HORRIBLE idea, considering that - since there's currently not a top-to-bottom DH run - a lot of the Bike Park traffic rides down the mountain by taking the Mid Mtn to Insurgent to Holly's.

    What they did to the trail was, to my understanding, at the request of the Canyons in order to reduce the possibility that a tourist hiker headed uphill wouldn't get creamed by someone exiting the Park by way of bombing Holly's.

    I know for a fact that Bob of Basin Rec didn't like this, but... You know. All of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time kinda thing.

  12. #12
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    Somethings fishy here....When I went on my rant with the Canyons they said it was Basin Rec's idea. Hmmm. Canyons needs to build a trail on the front side then most people would not go over to Holly's. Personally I think it's pretty boring on a DH bike. In the meantime it ruins the great Robs/ Holly's loop. Guess I'll have to bomb down Robs.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    in order to reduce the possibility that a tourist hiker headed uphill wouldn't get creamed by someone exiting the Park by way of bombing Holly's.
    Wider trails mean much lower downhill speeds. I think this is going to work really well for everyone.

    Crap, my Sarcasm Output Meter just broke again....

  14. #14
    YRG
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    Send an email Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie B View Post
    Sorry I did not get pictures. contactus@basinrecreation.org is a contact. They do a lot of great work but this sucks!
    Edit: this post turned out to be based on inaccurate info. Don't send emails to basin rec............../edit
    Please send an email quickly Darren is going over to talk to Basin Rec and if they get emails about this, basin rec will know this needs to be addressed
    I sent this:
    "Good Morning,
    Since this letter is an essentially a complaint, I should start with a list of things I appreciate.
    Trailside is awesome!
    Arcylon is too
    Basin Rec does so many great things, I really appreciate how you improve the quality of life here.
    So now that you know I am a big fan, I want to tell you about a problem. The speed control work on Holy's is a mistake. The main reasons are:
    Holy's (now called "flow killer") is the last run for the Canyon's bike park patrons. It will leave their paying customers with a bad taste in their mouths at the end of the day.
    Even with the speed control, Holy's is not a place for uphill traffic anymore. It is the only feasible exit for the bike park and even if signed, riders will ride it as fast as they can.
    The speed control work is not sustainable. Since it is already hated, it will likely be vandalized over and over as long as it is maintained.
    It could be a legal liability. If Basin Rec knowingly promotes and allows uphill traffic into a dh funnel, you are sending people into a high risk area. As much as I despise litigation in recreation, I think someone would have a legitimate argument when they get seriously injured.
    Holy's needs to be a downhill, bike only trail. Maybe there is a possibility of another Armstrong in the area. Armstrong is awesome because it gives foot traffic a beautiful trail where hikers can feel safe. Let's make more trails like Armstrong so we can make more trails like Arcylon. I am happy to help."
    Last edited by YRG; 06-19-2012 at 08:29 PM. Reason: bad info

  15. #15
    YRG
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    Bump,
    please send an email to Basin Rec

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    Email sent.

  17. #17
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    I spoke to Bob on Friday night about this. Couple bullet points.

    - Holly's is a multi-use trail on Canyons property managed by Basin Rec
    - Downhillers, both bike park and non-bike park have been using Holly's as a fast DH run
    - It's just a matter of time before someone gets really hurt
    - Canyons had previously planned to put in a dedicated DH trail this spring to move this traffic off of Holly's
    - Canyons has since changed their mind or delayed construction (not completely clear on this one)
    - Basin Rec was forced to try to go in and slow everyone down on Holly's to avoid a potential law suit
    - The solution is for the Canyons to build a one-way DH trail or to designate Holly's as a one-way DH trail

    For the Wasatch Enduro race, Basin Rec said they would fix up Holly's so that it could be ridden safely at full speed during the event.

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    The only point I really don't agree with is that it is Basin Rec's responsibility to slow people down on Hollies. That was a very natural single track that has been ridden for more than 10 years, well before there was a Basin Rec trail crew. We have always ridden it fairly quickly but in control. The trail was not built with any purpose in mind other than to enjoy the mountain (great descent from mid-mountain trail if you rode over from DV, best part of the ride). Is it Basin Rec's position that any natural trail in the greater Park City area now needs to be sanitized because the Basin Rec trail crew now exist? Is the County /City/Forest Service / ski resorts placing that level of responsibility and liability on them? I hope not…

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Err View Post
    I spoke to Bob on Friday night about this. Couple bullet points.

    - Holly's is a multi-use trail on Canyons property managed by Basin Rec
    - Downhillers, both bike park and non-bike park have been using Holly's as a fast DH run
    - It's just a matter of time before someone gets really hurt
    - Canyons had previously planned to put in a dedicated DH trail this spring to move this traffic off of Holly's
    - Canyons has since changed their mind or delayed construction (not completely clear on this one)
    - Basin Rec was forced to try to go in and slow everyone down on Holly's to avoid a potential law suit
    - The solution is for the Canyons to build a one-way DH trail or to designate Holly's as a one-way DH trail

    For the Wasatch Enduro race, Basin Rec said they would fix up Holly's so that it could be ridden safely at full speed during the event.
    Thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear that they will be improving the trail for the Enduro. I rode it a couple weeks ago while they were working on it, and between the loose, dug up soil and the speed bumps I can foresee some epic crashes unless they do something to improve the flow in those sections.

  20. #20
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    I don't want to speak too much for Basin Rec or the Canyons who are the ones in the drivers seat here. But, my understanding is similar to yours, Holly's has been known as a good fun, fast downhill for many years. I've heard from many people who absolutely loved it. The thing that changed was that the Canyons built a bike park above it. The amount of traffic that is flying down that trail has increased considerably and with it, the risk for a serious injury. The risk was always there, now it's greater. That's all. I don't think this scenario applies to other trails in the area and I'm not getting the sense that there's any agenda to "sanitize" or otherwise alter other well loved descents in the area.

    It's a bummer that it came to this but I think it will ultimately result in some pretty sweet options. In the mean time, well, I descended Holly's again last night, and yeah, it's painful.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Altagirl View Post
    Email sent.
    Ditto.... although mine was short and sweet. "Please remove speed bump/flow killers from bottom of Holly's. I believe Holly's would be best as a downhill directional trail."
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    I built the original Holly's over 15 years ago. It was built to serve as the downhill portion of an XC race, promoted by Holly Flanders. It worked very well for the race and, quite honestly, at that time nobody imagined it would continue to function as it has. Lots has happened at Canyons (and Wolf Mountain) since, all without any master plan. The type and number of users have changed dramatically in the area, and Canyons knows it now has a problem. I have proposed a solution (more below), and hopefully it will be adopted this season.

    Generally speaking, Basin Recreation is not in the business of building trails. They are a managing entity, easement holder, and maintainer. (Bob's official title is "Trails Maintenance Supervisor.") They have built a few trails on land owned or controlled by the District (Bob's Basin, Arcylon, Bad Apple), but most have been built by others. The Trailside Bike Park was built by Progressive Trail Design (with help from Alpine Trails), and Alpine Trails built most of the others in the area.

    Alpine Trails built Armstrong for Park City. It's not located in the jurisdictional area of Basin Recreation, and is not considered part of their system. If riders would like to see an "Armstrong-like" trail built on Canyons property, then Canyons will be the ones to approve it. Simply put, Basin Rec has no authority to build anything on Canyons land without their approval.

    Alpine proposed an up trail similar to Armstrong last year (from the base all the way up to High Meadow), but Canyons has not given the green light for construction. Input from interested riders would likely help make it happen, and if it does, Holly's would be freed up to go back to how it was, or possibly be turned into a true DH. There are good people at Canyons, and they want to create a good trail system. They have significant financial and land use constraints that don't allow them to do everything they'd like to do, so we have to be patient with the process. Ultimately, though, I think they will approve some new trails, but it may not happen right away.

    Finally, there is a lot of misunderstanding about liability and trails. It's simply untrue for anyone to suggest that Basin Rec was "forced" to go in and do anything to dramatically change the condition of a trail that has been pretty much as it is now for over a decade. To claim that the work was done to limit liability or reduce the chance of a lawsuit is quite a stretch. In reality, it just provides a convenient excuse to do work on the trail. In the legal world, I believe many would argue that placing obstacles creates a far greater level of potential liability than simply leaving the trail as it was.

    Troy Duffin
    Alpine Trails, Inc.
    Last edited by 480rider; 06-18-2012 at 08:55 PM.

  23. #23
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    Canyons puts in a top to bottom DH run = problem solved

  24. #24
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    And to add to that dmar123, put that DH run on the front side where the gondola is already running. Then you won't need to run the Shortcut lift which would save the canyons money. Also make different trails for hikers in the bike park area. DV does it, Whistler does it as well.

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    ^^yes !!... you would figure its a no brainer, Im baffled as to why they dont have a top to bottom run down the front side....I dont get it

  26. #26
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    Per Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mountaintrailsfoundation

    6 hours ago (roughly noon on Tuesday 6/19)
    THINGS:

    > Thing #1: There will be a race in Round Valley on Saturday evening (starts at 5PM) - please be mindful of this. Thanks.

    > Thing #2: There are discussions happening between Snyderville Basin Special Recreation District and Canyons Resort about the changes on Holly's Trail. Be patient, and we will keep you posted with updates.

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    I rode Holly's for the first time today and I thought those booby-trap/speed trap things were actually really fun... I must be weird cuz it seems I am the only one..
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    I rode Holly's for the first time today and I thought those booby-trap/speed trap things were actually really fun... I must be weird cuz it seems I am the only one..
    I haven't seen it myself, but the word is the trail was changed again last weekend. I think you rode the new version of Holly's.

  29. #29
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by 480rider View Post
    I built the original Holly's over 15 years ago. It was built to serve as the downhill portion of an XC race, promoted by Holly Flanders. It worked very well for the race and, quite honestly, at that time nobody imagined it would continue to function as it has. Lots has happened at Canyons (and Wolf Mountain) since, all without any master plan. The type and number of users have changed dramatically in the area, and Canyons knows it now has a problem. I have proposed a solution (more below), and hopefully it will be adopted this season.

    Generally speaking, Basin Recreation is not in the business of building trails. They are a managing entity, easement holder, and maintainer. (Bob's official title is "Trails Maintenance Supervisor.") They have built a few trails on land owned or controlled by the District (Bob's Basin, Arcylon, Bad Apple), but most have been built by others. The Trailside Bike Park was built by Progressive Trail Design (with help from Alpine Trails), and Alpine Trails built most of the others in the area.

    Alpine Trails built Armstrong for Park City. It's not located in the jurisdictional area of Basin Recreation, and is not considered part of their system. If riders would like to see an "Armstrong-like" trail built on Canyons property, then Canyons will be the ones to approve it. Simply put, Basin Rec has no authority to build anything on Canyons land without their approval.

    Alpine proposed an up trail similar to Armstrong last year (from the base all the way up to High Meadow), but Canyons has not given the green light for construction. Input from interested riders would likely help make it happen, and if it does, Holly's would be freed up to go back to how it was, or possibly be turned into a true DH. There are good people at Canyons, and they want to create a good trail system. They have significant financial and land use constraints that don't allow them to do everything they'd like to do, so we have to be patient with the process. Ultimately, though, I think they will approve some new trails, but it may not happen right away.

    Finally, there is a lot of misunderstanding about liability and trails. It's simply untrue for anyone to suggest that Basin Rec was "forced" to go in and do anything to dramatically change the condition of a trail that has been pretty much as it is now for over a decade. To claim that the work was done to limit liability or reduce the chance of a lawsuit is quite a stretch. In reality, it just provides a convenient excuse to do work on the trail. In the legal world, I believe many would argue that placing obstacles creates a far greater level of potential liability than simply leaving the trail as it was.

    Troy Duffin
    Alpine Trails, Inc.
    Troy,
    glad to see you in the forum. I want to provide feedback for some of the trails going in lately. I here you cut the up track on arcylon. That is beautiful! Totally awesome.
    1. It flows well - up or down
    2. The pitch is varied and generally not steep or flat
    3. Visibility is good
    4. There are no hazzards leaning into the trail that some foolishly call speed control
    5. It has a creative feel to it - it doesn't just contour until a turn is required.
    6. Simply put, it is an awesome trail - Outstanding job
    It is the kind of new trails we need to go in around here.
    Now here is my plea:
    If you are cutting trails, please cut them more like the Arcylon climb. Armstrong is pretty close in being a beautiful cut (too bad it's uphill only). It is pretty close to being as nice as the Arcylon up route
    The new Pinecone trail exhibits the kind of traits that we really don't here anymore. Such as:
    1. Long contouring lines - uninspired completely lacking creativety
    2. Downhill hazzards (trees) hanging into the line left on the trail
    3. Turns when needed - not when wanted
    4. No thought given to riding down the trail
    5. Just another clone of the trails like so many of our other trails, BORING!
    6. In it's favor, it is not as bad as the new Boulder trail in Deer Valley. That trail is a blight on our community and serves as a great example of how truly bad a trail can be.

    It really is such a shame that Pinecone was such a mediocre and uninspired piece of work. Park City needs better. It is time we step up our game and see that any new trail is a work of art.
    Oh, and it is not difficult to get volunteers to come out and help. Sometimes having a free hands and other creative minds can be a big plus for trail design.
    That pretty well covers the gist - Thanks

  30. #30
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    not black and white

    YRG, thanks for the feed back. But sometimes trail building and the politics of it aren't as black and white as you might like them to be. There are a number of factors, money, time, environmental sensitivity, managing entity, etc. that contribute to the flow and feel of a trail, be stoked you have so much good trail here and know we do our best to make every trail great, but sometimes, it is a little more out of our hands. Want to volunteer for something? Advocate a limitless budget that allows us the time to make it perfect. By the way I actually have a degree in ART.

    Thanks for the feedback, look forward to meeting you on the trail,
    Ben
    Alpine Trails.

  31. #31
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by redriderbb View Post
    YRG, thanks for the feed back. But sometimes trail building and the politics of it aren't as black and white as you might like them to be. There are a number of factors, money, time, environmental sensitivity, managing entity, etc. that contribute to the flow and feel of a trail, be stoked you have so much good trail here and know we do our best to make every trail great, but sometimes, it is a little more out of our hands. Want to volunteer for something? Advocate a limitless budget that allows us the time to make it perfect. By the way I actually have a degree in ART.

    Thanks for the feedback, look forward to meeting you on the trail,
    Ben
    Alpine Trails.
    Ben,
    thanks for the response. I am understand the often directly opposing forces at work when building trails. I know what it feels like to be hamstrung by legal battles, budget cuts, corporate ignorance and other frustrating factors.

    I believe that we can do better, and should do better. Since we have many scores of miles of trails that would be considered good or great by standards that are decades old, we do not need another foot of such trail. By current standards many of our once great trails are now fair at best.

    I am not advocating perfection. I desire our efforts to be inline with current standards and practices. Every time I see some new piece of trail that keeps us in the dark ages, I wonder if we will ever catch up. Ben, I going to have to disagree with you that an unlimited budget is required, or even a degree in Art (but I bet that will help). We just need to stop doing what we have been doing and look at the multitude of places that do a better job than we do. Then emulate them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    Ben,
    Since we have many scores of miles of trails that would be considered good or great by standards that are decades old, we do not need another foot of such trail. By current standards many of our once great trails are now fair at best.
    Don't you mean your standards! Not everybody is a freeride/downhill rider. You should just put this in your signature, so you don't have to keep posting it up.

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    What YRG guy said. Northern Utah is a wasteland of generic boring single track, with a few a few rare gems here and there. Has nothing to do with the type of riding one prefers. Crappy trails are crappy trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by redriderbb View Post
    By the way I actually have a degree in ART.
    Lol! You say that like it means something.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by redriderbb View Post
    Advocate a limitless budget that allows us the time to make it perfect.

    Thanks for the feedback, look forward to meeting you on the trail,
    Ben
    Alpine Trails.
    But back to the Canyons/Talisker....

    I doubt budgetary concerns would be an issue for the Canyons/Talisker if:
    1. They were truly interested in making Utah a bike park destination...Is anyone really convinced of this?

    2. They weren't saving their pennies to build "Liftenstein 2.0" and acquire Solitude to create the empire of Taliskonitude.

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    HA, Monkeyhands, that's good, took me 7 years to get it too!

    So there are good points here and there in the conversation, I will agree. We have a ton of trail that by other parts of the country's standards are great, but here it is the baseline product. However, these trails meet the needs of the client, the managing entity and the end user fairly well.

    We at Alpine Trails really would love to build flowy jumpy directional single use trail. But, the reality is it doesn't fill the needs or desires of the vast majority of users in the Northern Utah area. Most of these projects are tax funded and the needs of the average joe (hiker, horseback rider, mountain biker) must be balanced. That is what we do really well, that's why land managers are able to turn to us for the builds.

    Now, that said, if enough voices are raised asking for trail that is more geared towards YRG and others needs, and desires. We could create a hybrid project (efficiency and professionalism of a pro crew combined with community involvement of volunteers) that would be great. However, it will take someone in the community to push that from their side. We don't get to choose the product the client does.

    We will be working on some directional flow based stuff this Summer, one of them will even have a volunteer component so just look for those opportunities then we can talk about all this stuff in person. Our goals are the same, but judgements should be reserved until you understand the inner workings of these projects.

    As far as all the trails being the same generic stuff, I encourage you guys to ride the new Sams trail in Daly Canyon we just completed as well as some of the old school hand built stuff up around Black Forest. Its not all the same vanilla, you just might not have found your flavor yet.

    Ben

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    Quote Originally Posted by redriderbb View Post
    We have a ton of trail that by other parts of the country's standards are great, but here it is the baseline product.
    Ben
    Not true, at the heart of it.

  37. #37
    YRG
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    Quote Originally Posted by redriderbb View Post
    HA, Monkeyhands, that's good, took me 7 years to get it too!

    So there are good points here and there in the conversation, I will agree. We have a ton of trail that by other parts of the country's standards are great, but here it is the baseline product. However, these trails meet the needs of the client, the managing entity and the end user fairly well.

    We at Alpine Trails really would love to build flowy jumpy directional single use trail. But, the reality is it doesn't fill the needs or desires of the vast majority of users in the Northern Utah area. Most of these projects are tax funded and the needs of the average joe (hiker, horseback rider, mountain biker) must be balanced. That is what we do really well, that's why land managers are able to turn to us for the builds.

    Now, that said, if enough voices are raised asking for trail that is more geared towards YRG and others needs, and desires. We could create a hybrid project (efficiency and professionalism of a pro crew combined with community involvement of volunteers) that would be great. However, it will take someone in the community to push that from their side. We don't get to choose the product the client does.

    We will be working on some directional flow based stuff this Summer, one of them will even have a volunteer component so just look for those opportunities then we can talk about all this stuff in person. Our goals are the same, but judgements should be reserved until you understand the inner workings of these projects.

    As far as all the trails being the same generic stuff, I encourage you guys to ride the new Sams trail in Daly Canyon we just completed as well as some of the old school hand built stuff up around Black Forest. Its not all the same vanilla, you just might not have found your flavor yet.

    Ben
    Glad to hear of it. Very good news (the daly stuff, and flow). If it is a community push that is required, so be it. Sounds like signatures and emails might be helpful.
    Also, could use a little beta for Sams and nearby black forest stuff.

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    Sam's is meant to have a techy old school feel much like the rest of the trails in Daly, it comes off at the Little Chief and Ore Cart intersection and goes through the belly of Daly Canyon onto the other side where it maneuvers through a few ski in/out runs and connects to Empire Link.

    Black Forest is over near the McConkey's lift at PCMR. There are a slew of great trails up in PC that stay local known, but are on all the maps, if you are tired of riding the same old stuff, mix it up some.

    Letters and signatures to the effect of "I love riding the trails here but want to rip a mountain bike only downhill only flow trail" certainly can't hurt moving the conversation forward.

    Monkeyhands, name a place besides Whistler that has the quantity of quality trails we have at our disposal in Northern Utah. I traveled the country for over 6 years full time, and have yet to find a place like this. There are only a couple experiences missing and those will certainly be available as we get more land managers on board, or should I say on bike!

    Ben

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    I'm not playing your stupid game.
    Last edited by monkeyhands; 07-03-2012 at 09:27 AM.

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    Looks like you have seven new places to live besides here, I'd probably start job hunting. Or you could be part of the solution to the "Utah Problem" and start advocating for the trail you want, so we can "catch up", cause b*tching about it sure isn't helping anything. For the record I've ridden in every one of those places, no joke, and I moved here.

    The grass is always greener, but we really do have it good here, DH, XC, FR all of it, I can even ride my moto on hundreds of miles of trail. Not bad.

    Now time to get back to work.
    Ben

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    Quote Originally Posted by redriderbb View Post
    Looks like you have seven new places to live besides here, I'd probably start job hunting. Or you could be part of the solution to the "Utah Problem" and start advocating for the trail you want, so we can "catch up", cause b*tching about it sure isn't helping anything. For the record I've ridden in every one of those places, no joke, and I moved here.

    The grass is always greener, but we really do have it good here, DH, XC, FR all of it, I can even ride my moto on hundreds of miles of trail. Not bad.

    Now time to get back to work.
    Ben
    Ben,
    I am with you about the getting to work. I've been volunteering on public and private endeavors. So if you guys ever want some help with any projects that will up the fun factor around here, don't hesitate to ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wookie View Post
    Don't you mean your standards! Not everybody is a freeride/downhill rider. You should just put this in your signature, so you don't have to keep posting it up.
    I am definitely for putting in downhill only trails, but I was talking about something else here. Have you ever been hammering a big gear and constantly piloting the bike? It is a great feeling. UPS and LPS are kind of like that. That is what I mean when I'm talking about a well designed trail. Upping the fun factor for every kind of trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YRG View Post
    I am definitely for putting in downhill only trails, but I was talking about something else here. Have you ever been hammering a big gear and constantly piloting the bike? It is a great feeling. UPS and LPS are kind of like that. That is what I mean when I'm talking about a well designed trail. Upping the fun factor for every kind of trail.
    I have traveled all over the US, Europe, and Asia. We are very fortunate to have so much singletrack. Based on the #s of cyclists/MTBers I've seen in UT, your opinion is the minority. Like someone else said, many of our trails are MUT. Are our downhill trails week? Yes. But to say UT trails are dated is just your way of saying "I want bridges and features like Whistler". And your seriously comparing Ut to Jackson? Really?

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    Wow! Truly shocked to hear folks state the the trails in the Wasatch, Uintas, etc... are not good enough for them and boring and that other places are light years ahead. Sounds like a self pitty party to me. While some of the FR and DH stuff is limited, it's coming around. With the politics and games around here that have to be played to build anything, I'd say things are looking up.

    And monkeyhands, once again you prove to be the smegma rising to the tip of all the d1ckheads around here. Do us all a favor, find a busy street, go out in the middle and play hide-and-go-****-yourself.

    Happy 4th of July!

    Regards,
    BY
    Last edited by Bortis Yelltzen; 07-04-2012 at 10:23 AM.
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen View Post

    And monkeyhands, once again you prove to be the smegma rising to the tip of all the d1ckheads around here. Do us all a favor, find a busy street, go out in the middle and play hide-and-go-****-yourself.
    Quoted for posterity

    I was just joking BTW. Northern Utah has the best trails not only in the United States, but in the whole world! I don't even know why anyone would want to ride a bike anywhere else. We all know that. I was just trying to keep it our little secret, don't want our awesome trails overrun with the internet hordes. Thank for blowing my cover dipshit.
    Last edited by monkeyhands; 07-04-2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen View Post
    And monkeyhands, once again you prove to be the smegma rising to the tip of all the d1ckheads around here. Do us all a favor, find a busy street, go out in the middle and play hide-and-go-****-yourself.
    Now Bortis...don't be so hasty! I applaud your creativity, but please let's be civil (kudos on smegma BTW). By "****" did you mean L-O-V-E? I thought so.

    Monkeyhands, you just keep doing what you do. You are a beacon of hope in this wasteland of boring trails I like to call Taliskonitude. Now go forth and "write some chapters in the book of gnar", bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyhands View Post
    Quoted for posterity
    I'd really appreciate it if you used it for you signature.

    XOXO
    BY
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

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    Finally rode this trail after a couple year hiatus back when a bunch of lift construction was done. Wanted to check it out before the Enduro. I'm not sure how it compares in it's form today to how it was for all of you in the past couple weeks, but I actually found the features fun to pump and pop over. It's definitely slower than I remember it, but I think I could get much faster on it than I rode today. Several of the "piles of stuff" I actually turned into nice little poppy airs. That said, stopping for uphill traffic might get interesting going much faster

    I have to assume that it's much better than what it was a week ago as ERR pointed out, so go ride it again people, you might just like it.

    Also, do we know if this is the final revision before the Enduro? If so, I predict the winners will be good bike handlers, not just pedaling lungs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    I rode Holly's for the first time today and I thought those booby-trap/speed trap things were actually really fun... I must be weird cuz it seems I am the only one..
    I think you and I are the only ones. I think they are fun too. Since it's up and down you can't really go fast anyway. Some of those have a perfect slope to jump off of as well.

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