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Thread: Flying Dog??

  1. #1
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    Flying Dog??

    Whats the word on Flying Dog? Is it worth riding yet, or too much hike-a-bike??
    Thanks.

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    it was open today, I turned off and rode the preserve connector instead which was perfectly dry. Rode flying dog on friday, it was still closed at 3pm, and opened saturday morning, i was the second track through and there was about a 30 minute hike a bike through snow in one spot, other than that the trail was sweet, probably getting better as we speak
    Last edited by turbonate; 05-20-2008 at 10:07 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbonate
    Rode flying dog on friday, it was still closed
    Fvcking genius.

  4. #4
    Lev
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    Flying Dog had about 100 or so yrds that were covered up by snow yesterday. Not too bad overall. I'd say in a week or so of hot days it'll be almost completely dry... almost

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    Should be pretty sick after we get snow this week....
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by radnasty
    Fvcking genius.
    ^^^ ^^^

    I mean, am I stupid or does closed not mean closed? Not "closed to everyone except the special people" that can't or won't read? And don't give me that "yeah bro, but I'm a local brah and it's just that the trail managers are too lazy to take the signs down" crap......

    I've been riding GW for the last few weeks and wanted to ride those trails as much as anyone. I mean come on, this is not Nam, there are rules..............

    B
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    ^^^ ^^^

    I mean, am I stupid or does closed not mean closed? Not "closed to everyone except the special people" that can't or won't read? And don't give me that "yeah bro, but I'm a local brah and it's just that the trail managers are too lazy to take the signs down" crap......

    I've been riding GW for the last few weeks and wanted to ride those trails as much as anyone. I mean come on, this is not Nam, there are rules..............

    B
    Amen brother...
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    Does anyone know where I can go to get a pass that will allow me to ride on closed trails? I guess maybe I'm not as special as my mom tells me I am.....
    "Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    ^^^ ^^^

    I mean, am I stupid or does closed not mean closed? Not "closed to everyone except the special people" that can't or won't read? And don't give me that "yeah bro, but I'm a local brah and it's just that the trail managers are too lazy to take the signs down" crap......

    I've been riding GW for the last few weeks and wanted to ride those trails as much as anyone. I mean come on, this is not Nam, there are rules..............

    B
    At the risk of getting beaten up...

    Let's talk about this a bit. Does anyone know who is taking the responsibility of posting the closed signs on those trails (let's say Flying Dog + 24/7 + Glenwild stuff, for example) I'm just curious. I agree with Bortis about the closure breakings, EXCEPT that numerous times the trails are posted as "closed muddy conditions exist" when in fact they are perfectly dry. As a good case in point, on Saturday the second part of the Cobblestone loop was marked as closed. We were about to turn around and go back down when a person walking her dogs came by (seemed like a local home-owner, but I don't know) and said "oh, I just walked that whole trail, its completely dry". Well...now we have conflicting info - the orange sign and a real live person who just was on the trail....naturally we rode the trail. (yes, it was dry) So the real truth is that I am opposed to riding trails when they are muddy, and I question signs of unknown authority and unknown accuracy. I want to play by the rules, but what if the rules are all messed up? I guess that's why I'm curious about who's the authority in charge of opening/closing the trails. (obviously different for PC Mtn trails, SLC shoreline, glenwild etc)

    Again, don't get me wrong - there is nothing that pisses me off more than idiots riding wet trails, leaving deep ruts (or horse prints...don't get me started) but how can I trust this un-named authority that wields the orange signs?

    Let's say (I don't know, so its possible...) that the signs are posted by some random group of trail users that happen to live in the Jeremy ranch area. Let's say again, that because they are loosely organized, and fairly informal, they don't get out and check the trails every day (oh crap, I was supposed to check Flying Dog today, but my kid got sick...). How long do us mere mortals have to wait before the trail is officially opened?

    I guess if the signs said: closed by authority of the snyderville basin trail association ( call 555-1212 with questions) I would feel better about not checking to see what the actual trail conditions are for myself.

  10. #10
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    I would say whoever owns the land should know who is responsible for taking down and putting up signs. BLM probably in most cases.
    "Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?"

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    Am i the only one reading turbonateís post? He hiked-a-bike for THIRTY MINUTES people! Jezzus, it's all i can muster to take the damn thing of the roofrack and he's HIKING? Are we not bikers? Did god not give us the wheel (and another one, for good measure)?

    I think we should salute turbonateís plucky, can-do attitude and ask that if he's willing to take responsibility for riding down closed trails at the risk of damaging them, then he should be willing to take responsibility in helping build and maintain them. Join WAFTA, come dig at draper tomorrow, and you can do all the hard work you want, AND get refreshments, AND get to shred the trails once they're done. This is a call to arms, Olympian.

  12. #12
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    ... and if we just ...

    [QUOTE=SingleWhiteCaveman]Am i the only one reading turbonateís post? He hiked-a-bike for THIRTY MINUTES people! Jezzus, it's all i can muster to take the damn thing of the roofrack and he's HIKING? Are we not bikers? Did god not give us the wheel (and another one, for good measure)?/QUOTE]
    Nice response to the flames!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by slcpunk
    At the risk of getting beaten up...

    Again, don't get me wrong - there is nothing that pisses me off more than idiots riding wet trails, leaving deep ruts (or horse prints...don't get me started) but how can I trust this un-named authority that wields the orange signs?

    Let's say (I don't know, so its possible...) that the signs are posted by some random group of trail users that happen to live in the Jeremy ranch area. Let's say again, that because they are loosely organized, and fairly informal, they don't get out and check the trails every day (oh crap, I was supposed to check Flying Dog today, but my kid got sick...). How long do us mere mortals have to wait before the trail is officially opened?
    I'm guessing reality is somewhere between the trails not being ready and the trail managers not being on top of things.

    To me it is simple. Three simple rules:

    1. Don't ride closed trails
    2. If you are a prick and do ride closed trials don't post about it on web forums and encourage other idiots to follow your example.
    3. If you ride a closed trail and it has hike-a-bike section(s) through snow and mud, when you get home or in the parking lot after the ride, punch yourself in the crotch for an equal number of minutes to the hike-a-bike section(s).

    My take anyway.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  14. #14
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    Amen

    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    I'm guessing reality is somewhere between the trails not being ready and the trail managers not being on top of things.

    To me it is simple. Three simple rules:

    1. Don't ride closed trails
    2. If you are a prick and do ride closed trials don't post about it on web forums and encourage other idiots to follow your example.
    3. If you ride a closed trail and it has hike-a-bike section(s) through snow and mud, when you get home or in the parking lot after the ride, punch yourself in the crotch for an equal number of minutes to the hike-a-bike section(s).

    My take anyway.

    B
    Agreed, especially point 2. As for punching myself in the crotch repeatedly I'll leave that up to the individual. I'd rather be spanked.

  15. #15
    JMH
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    I agree it's a tough call. I know lots of guys who live up there and start riding the trails when they are DRY, not when they are OPEN... I think Bob from Snyderville Basin is responsible for the trail system. He is a great guy! My guess is that if someone called him with up-to-the-minute trail status, he could remove the signs within a day or two. Bottom line is that it's not going to kill anybody to wait the extra 3-4 days or whatever it usually is before the signs are gone.

    But also, "dry" seems to be a relative term in the MTB community, lots of people ride "dry" trails and leave tire marks in the "dry" soft areas more commonly known to others as "not dry"

    JMH

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    The issue is one of respect. If MTB'rs really want a leg to stand on when trail closure / access issues arise then it's imperative that the community has a history of respecting the land management. Riding closed trails is exactly the type of ammo used to restrict access.

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    Rode the south side, switchback side, mon & tues. it's dusty dry.
    Saw several riders (3) Mon & (4) Tues, summit from the north side, fork and seat stay arches packed with mud.
    Please respect the trail and other trail users. NUF-SED

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    I am going to get **** for this, but the whole 'not riding trails when they are wet is B.S'. especially in Utah; I'll tell you why. If a trail gets too dry before people ride it, it is going to turn to dust and be that way all season. That is going to create a lot more problems for the trail in the long run, erosional or otherwise.

    When you tell people to stay off trails when they are wet that creates a problem in that only a few people ride the trail because they are trying to be 'good', especially in a place where people try especially hard to be 'good', like Utah. But one or two people inevitably do ride the trail anyway, and then they leave a rut. So in the end you have a dry dusty trail with ruts in it.

    Ask yourself, why does Utah have so many dusty trails with ruts in them?

    No the best thing for a trail, in Utah, is for lots of people to ride it when it is wet.
    Riding trails when they are 'moist' is good for the trails because it packs them down and makes them hard and smooth. This will get rid of the dustiness and smooth out the 'ruts'

    Utah is full of far too many people who get off on passing judgement and controlling other peoples behavior, and this 'stay off wet trails' crowd is no exception. So I am going to flip the bird to all of you self-righteous, controlling, 'stay off wet trails' people right now and tell you that you are wrong.

    That is all. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by AMMAROO; 05-21-2008 at 11:05 PM.

  19. #19
    JMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    Ask yourself, why does Utah have so many dusty trails with ruts in them? No the best thing for a trail, in Utah, is for lots of people to ride it when it is wet.
    Riding trails when they are 'moist' is good for the trails because it packs them down and makes them hard and smooth. This will get rid of the dustiness and smooth out the 'ruts'
    Nice Budweiser Land Management theory. Do you set the wet concrete of a driveway by driving back and forth on it? No, you let it dry and it creates a smooth, hard surface. Everyone has ridden wet trails and caused ruts before, but only a moron keeps doing it on a regular basis.

    JMH

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    Ask yourself, why does Utah have so many dusty trails with ruts in them?


    Uh....because it's a friggin desert! +1 moron.

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    I think it is entirely fitting that you added the exact amount of self-righteous condescension to your post. Nice job!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    When you tell people to stay off trails when they are wet that creates a problem in that only a few people ride the trail because they are trying to be 'good', especially in a place where people try especially hard to be 'good', like Utah. But one or two people inevitably do ride the trail anyway, and then they leave a rut. So in the end you have a dry dusty trail with ruts in it.
    While Iím not sure it was worded perfectly, I actually agree with SOME of this. I think that the point that EVERYONE will never follow the rules is valid (especially when enforcement is non-existent). Even if most of us do, a few (which on some trails can be 10-20 people) will ignore the policy of not riding on wet trails. In some areas this means some pretty bad ruts will develop.

    In the worst case, if many people ride the trails when they are very wet (even sloppy) they become a deep trench as seen on the back side of Glenwild. That is very, very bad IMHO. Just as bad as dragging brakes in steeps and creating a trench and or braking bumps. ( I will say that I think dragging brakes is as much a function of trail design as poor skill by the rider Ė if itís that steep, it needs to be built out of materials that will last and not become 8Ē of powdered sugar in 2 weekends, but thatís another issue)

    I confess, last weekend, I rode an un-named trail which was marked closed. I rode it with the intent on needing to either walk or even ride back if I could not ride through without damaging the trail. It turned out that there was one small (<10 foot long) damp area and while I could leave a track, I couldnít actually dent the trail much at all. It was tacky, not wet. I actually think, riding a trail in this state can be good for compaction of the very top layer. Like tamping a dirt jump. Also, if some one had ridden the trail earlier when it was truly wet, this is the last chance to smooth out the rut, before it fully dries. Shaping and packing a completely dry trail isnít very effective.

    With all this in mind, I feel like there is an ideal time which is when the masses should start riding a trail. I donít think damp is the same as wet, and Iím sorry but I donít think people inspecting a trail that is marked closed is a crime (legally, itís not in most cases). Since I have no roll is actual enforcement of this issue, Iím going to take the idealistic view and plead with people to just use good judgment and always try to leave the trail in as good (or better) shape when you leave. Please donít do anything that could widen the impacted area, trench it, or create a rut.

    All this is pretty moot at the moment, since none of us should be riding anything that isnít pavement, sand, or gravel with the current weather. I think the most valuable point Iíve seen in this thread is that people should not go online and post to the world that they rode trail X despite it not being ready for larger crowds because that is what posting online brings.

    Peace and happy riding!!

  23. #23
    JMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    I think it is entirely fitting that you added the exact amount of self-righteous condescension to your post. Nice job!
    Sorry, man. I call it like I see it.

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    You don't have to apologize for being yourself.

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    hey guys

    take a three week vacation (From ireland) each year to the states and always factor in at least a week in park city. flying dog in excellent trail really enjoyed it last year. keep in good shape for me for the visit in august.

    stay fast

    mark

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    I am going to get **** for this, blah blah blah blah blah.......you're not the boss of me, this is merica' and don't tread on my freedom.......blah blah blah.......

    No the best thing for a trail, in Utah, is for lots of people to ride it when it is wet.

    Utah is full of far too many people who get off on passing judgement and controlling other peoples behavior, and this 'stay off wet trails' crowd is blah blah blah blah.......

    That is all. Have a nice day.
    Here is a story I think you should read:
    http://www.parkrecord.com/scene/ci_9324313

    Between riding illegal trails, closed trails and wet trails (all things you have advocated in the last month or so on this forum) it sounds like you really have best interests of the mtb community in mind.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

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    Well, someone I know here was trying to work out a 'deal' with SOC, which would close many areas to mountainbiking, so I would be careful of the pot calling the kettle black dude.

    There is a certain mountain biking orthodoxy that seems to be above any criticism or critical thinking. And I suppose you feel that way too? My presumption is to let people do what they want as much as possible, because when you try to control peoples behavior, there are unintended consequences, because people do what they want anyway.

    This whole hand in the wet cement argument is bogus. Do you think that after the snow melts the trail is butter smooth? Do you think than animals don't walk across it and leave their footprints? My point is that by encouraging people to stay off trails when they are moist creates a problem in itself in that that the ruts and marks left by the lone soldiers, and animals are worse than if you just let everybody have at it. If you are setting cement you want to smooth it out, and what better way to do it than fifty 2.5inch tires rolling over it at high speed. So there is a flip side to every coin. Just don't pretend to me that you know it all.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMMAROO
    I think it is entirely fitting that you added the exact amount of self-righteous condescension to your post. Nice job!
    I know that JMH guy, and you are spot on. What a self-righteous prick.

    And related to the true subject of this thread, besides that JMH guy being so self righteous, is that I heard that the focus of the IMBA summit coming up in Park City this year will be a change in IMBA's stance regarding trail maintenance and improvements. After extensive studies, IMBA has decided that its trail management protocol has been wrong all these years. In reality, the best way to maintain a trail is to ride it when it is wet. Sopping wet.

    I plan to attend to understand this revolutionary, yet counter-intuitive theory.


  29. #29
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    Dear Ammaroo,
    In a world that consists of more than just one person we must think about how our actions affect others, not just today but also in the future. This is called being a mature adult. Many on this forum are concerned about how our actions affect other users, not just today, this year or the next but in the decades to come. We, as a loose group decided to work with the SOC and develop a plan that will benefit both groups, wilderness folk and mountain bikers alike. This is called living in a democracratic society. When you mature a bit and move out of your moms basement you will understand these concepts, until then shut the $&^* up and quit riding muddy trails.
    Best,
    Idiot Boy

  30. #30
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    ^^^ ^^^

    At first I thought AMMAROO was just angry about losing trails, but now I'm pretty sure he is just ignorant after bagging on JMH. JMH has always been nothing but nice around mtbr and is always involved with building new trails and maintaining them throughout the state. Not to mention the hundreds of $$ worth of bike gear he gives away at trail building days.

    Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

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    I told you I would get **** for that. Apparently people take themselves way to seriously around here. Oh well. Best not to mess with the MTBR mafia.

  32. #32
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    Dude. If we are a mafia, my hair is going to have to get WAY bigger.
    Anyone have some Aqua Net?
    I only attempt to change the world in the appropriate World-Changing venues and forums.

  33. #33
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    Hey girls, check out Chuky's recent IMBA post.

    Apparantly there's a free workshop going on next week. Could be a great place to ask the experts whether riding wet trails really does cause damage. If it does, and if you decide to excercise your right to ride them anyways, at least you'll be informed on how to fix up whatever damage you may (or may not) be making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuky
    Dude. If we are a mafia, my hair is going to have to get WAY bigger.
    Anyone have some Aqua Net?
    You're soooo mafia. I came over the other day and met your "family". I knew something seemed funny. Please don't give me concrete shoes!!!! I promise not to call JMH condescending! (unless he starts ragging on PBR instead of Bud!)

    But while we're on the subject of Flying Dog and Glenwild, I want to talk about a more dangerous thing to MTBing than riding wet trails - Grumpy Rider's with Expensive Bikes. That's right - GREBs. Almost as dangerous as bears, their numbers are proliferating, especially in PC. They can be seen at the top of difficult descents looking frustrated or midway up a tough climb looking as though they may consider throwing that expensive new steed. But hey! C'mon, we're moutain biking on a sunny, beautiful day! Be happy, even if your $5,000 bike isn't getting you up every hill.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Here is a story I think you should read:
    http://www.parkrecord.com/scene/ci_9324313

    Between riding illegal trails, closed trails and wet trails (all things you have advocated in the last month or so on this forum) it sounds like you really have best interests of the mtb community in mind.

    B
    Bortis:
    While you're feeling spunky, perhaps you could use your pull with the administrators, and your diplomatic skills to disuade the author of the thread "spring training" from mud riding and posting photos of same. I would, but my passion for our trails might overwhelm what little tact I could muster. Spring Training

    Thanks in advance. Shelbak
    Last edited by Shelbak73; 05-25-2008 at 07:54 AM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelbak73
    Bortis:
    While you're feeling spunky, perhaps you could use your pull with the administrators, and your diplomatic skills to disuade the author of the thread "spring training" from mud riding and posting photos of same. I would, but my passion for our trails might overwhelm what little tact I could muster.

    Thanks in advance. Shelbak
    Wooooooool, errrrr, ummmm.......what? I got no pull and this is the first I've ever heard about me having "skills" of any sort. I have lots of opinion though........

    B
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro....

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bortis Yelltzen
    Wooooooool, errrrr, ummmm.......what? I got no pull and this is the first I've ever heard about me having "skills" of any sort. I have lots of opinion though........

    B
    You're far too modest, your opinions are honest, and your opinion on the thread in question is of interest to me. This isn't flame bait, pm me if you like.

  38. #38
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    The level of idiocy that humans are able to attain is astounding. Thanks for raising the bar AMMAROO.

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    check out how awesome my bike looks all muddy. This after I rode up in Park City the other day, just to spite you.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by radnasty
    The level of idiocy that humans are able to attain is astounding. Thanks for raising the bar AMMAROO.
    Check out how awesome this quote looks on both sides of your post.

  41. #41
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    Back on topic...

    Flying Dog is good to go. There's one 100ft section that's still a bit muddy near the peak--it's a hike-a-bike going up, but ridable going down. The backside between the peak and Cobblestone Loop was wet from runoff and full of puddles, but not muddy at all.

    Preserve Traverse is good as well.

    Enjoy. I had tons of fun.

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    I rode flying dog yesterday, counter clockwise, and the closed sign that was there two three weeks ago when I originally posted was still there, up and in the same place. The trail is fine, I didnt get off my bike at all, theres no snow what so ever, you can ride the hole climb with out getting muddy or walking. As your coming down and the preserve connector joins up with it, then it starts to get a little damp, there is no alot of runoff water until you get to the next road crossing, its weird, cause that was bone dry three weeks ago. So in my opinion, which probably doesnt matter at all to you guys, is that flying dog should be ridden as much as possible right now, while the stuff up to the peak is still a little damp so it can be compacted and formed back into a mtb trail, not the side of a washed out hill from the snow. To everyone that has ridden the trail up to this point, you didnt the same thing I did three weeks ago, and that is bypassed the closed sign, Im not saying its wrong, but someone else here might.

  43. #43
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by turbonate
    I rode flying dog yesterday, counter clockwise, and the closed sign that was there two three weeks ago when I originally posted was still there, up and in the same place. The trail is fine, I didnt get off my bike at all, theres no snow what so ever, you can ride the hole climb with out getting muddy or walking. As your coming down and the preserve connector joins up with it, then it starts to get a little damp, there is no alot of runoff water until you get to the next road crossing, its weird, cause that was bone dry three weeks ago. So in my opinion, which probably doesnt matter at all to you guys, is that flying dog should be ridden as much as possible right now, while the stuff up to the peak is still a little damp so it can be compacted and formed back into a mtb trail, not the side of a washed out hill from the snow. To everyone that has ridden the trail up to this point, you didnt the same thing I did three weeks ago, and that is bypassed the closed sign, Im not saying its wrong, but someone else here might.
    It looks like its raining outside. Better go out and do some "trail maintenance", eh guys? Seriously, you guys are morons. Stop riding closed trails. You will hurt efforts that Bob in Park City is making to give mountain bikers a great trail network. Riding closed trails shows no respect for land managers who are willing to allow mountain bikers to ride on their land. Mountain biking is not a right - it is a privilege. Abusing it will terminate it. Grow up and call the county and ask them if you can VOLUNTEER to do some trail maintenance so that the trail will actually be legally open sooner. Maybe this is a stretch, but it is possibly closed until some real maintenance can be done to fix the portions that were washed out by the snow. Give mountain bikers a good name. Stop being a selfish prick.

    End rant.

  44. #44
    wolf mtn ***** whore
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    good morning mike

  45. #45
    oootard
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by FBC2008
    good morning mike
    Hey Jeremy.

  46. #46
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    For some reason though this trail and sections of it are often marked "closed." I was up there last fall and it was marked as "closed." I am a big fan of trail preservation but the Mountain Trails Foundation (the ones marking closed) are super conservative. Most of the closures are because of the random 20 foot mud stretches that everyone walks anyway... Just my $.02. I'm saying have respect but at the same time, this is the situation up there...

  47. #47
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    June 9

    It was pretty dry yesterday. It had a couple of spots where water was trickling across the trail. Nothing had to be walked. I think the danger of adding to the ruts is gone now.
    "The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the person who sits in it."
    The Red Baron
    I need a better box

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