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  1. #26
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    I have an awesome full-face and also a normal XC-style half lid. Living in Vancouver we have more than our fair share of big and technical climbs that culminate in some very technical descending. Many people have gone back to half lids in recent times, myself included. But like any reduction in protection, the added comfort is liberating and feels awesome... until you crash.

    As far as the Archi-Enduro goes I would expect that people buying it aren't looking for a 'light DH' helmet but rather as a way to get some additional protection over a half lid while maintaining climbing comfort.

    I'm curious, OP, in the context of the Archi offering more protection than a half lid wasn't it a success? If you had crashed wearing a half lid surely you would have been way worse off?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by asin View Post
    I'm curious, OP, in the context of the Archi offering more protection than a half lid wasn't it a success? If you had crashed wearing a half lid surely you would have been way worse off?
    It's a little hard to say exactly what would have happened in a half-lid versus the Archi. I would assume the outcome might have been worse, especially since I wouldn't have been wearing the Leatt.

    I guess the thing is - seen through the comforting perspective of 20/20 hindsight - if you think you want the protection of a full face for when sh!t goes sideways, then wear one. If you don't, then wear a half-lid. The in-between area can prove to be ambiguous territory.

    In my mind "faux full face" helmets probably should all go the way of the old Giro Switchblade. There really is no common ground between sacrificing a little comfort in order to have proper face protection, and leaving your mug exposed to the cool trail breezes.

    YMMV, however. Wear what works for you. ...All I know for sure is that once in a lifetime is one time too many for an injury like that.

  3. #28
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    That is exactly why I do not use any products made in France, the moment I saw Urge being a french company I decided to buy a helmet elsewhere

  4. #29
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    Wow, I was looking for the reviews for this Urge helmet and stumbled here... Hope you recovered from this awful experience and riding full force nowadays...

    However, I'd like to ask you a question, as it seems to be you also riding in some extreme hot weather - what would be your suggestion for a good helmet in hot conditions for AM riding? What are you using today? And what was Urge's response?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aba Grizzly View Post
    Wow, I was looking for the reviews for this Urge helmet and stumbled here... Hope you recovered from this awful experience and riding full force nowadays...

    However, I'd like to ask you a question, as it seems to be you also riding in some extreme hot weather - what would be your suggestion for a good helmet in hot conditions for AM riding? What are you using today? And what was Urge's response?
    104* today in SLC...although I rode early this morning in Park City, but yeah...H O T.

    Anyhow... Thank you. Yes, I recovered almost fully. Physically. The reconstructive surgeon that responded to the call from the ER turned out to be one of the best hand and face trauma doc's in the state. A whole lotta stitches later, and it's very hard to tell I was Walking Dead material a year ago.

    ...Mentally... Well, this one kinda changed things for me. At 45, I took stock of my ride priorities, and decided to take a step back to try some different stuff. I still spend a fair amount of quality time on dirt, but added trials and uni into my ride mix. The crash has been...oddly, a net positive experience for me. Sometimes you can lose sight of the forest for the trees, as they say. I prefer to think I see more forest now, at the expense of a few less trees.

    As for what I wear... After a full year (post-crash) of riding only a full face I tried going back to pedaling XC/AM in a half-lid helmet and... I just couldn't do it. My face apparently has a far better memory than most of my other broken body parts. So I continue to ride all non-DH (except trials and uni) in a Rockgardn Pearl full face. I find it well vented and very comfortable, even with temps in the low 90's. This morning I rode 11 miles @ 7000 to 9000ft in upper-70's to low-80 degree temps with 2000+ feet of climbing, and it never bothered me. For pure (i.e. lift-served) DH I ride an Arai VX Pro 3.

    As for Urge... No response. Which I can't say surprises me. However, as I alluded to earlier, I do think they might be well served to heed Giro's past with the old Switchblade , and think harder about the wisdom of offering a faux-full face helmet.

    Urge does have a pretty solid shell design, I feel. Although I had a concussion as a result of the impact, the Archi did adequately protect my gray matter...which, in the grand scheme, is a lot more important than having a pretty smile. As I pointed out earlier, I believe that the compromises made in the chin bar design make the Archi an "ambiguous" helmet, at least in context of it's ability to shield your face from serious harm in a lawn dart-type crash.

    As always, the responsibility of what happened was all mine. ...Bad luck, "user error", crappy rider, not enough coffee that morning, bad juju...whatever. I don't blame anyone or anything. Sh!t happens. I signed the MTB personal responsibility release form a long time ago. In blood.

    Cheers!

  6. #31
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    That Arai is a moto helmet? I thought there were compelling safety/engineering reasons for not wearing moto helmets for DH - basically that the higher speeds of a moto necessitate the use of harder foams and shell materials that might not be compliant/compressible enough to protect the user from crashes at bike speeds.

    Tech Tuesday: DH Helmet vs. Motocross Helmet: Which is Safer? - Pinkbike

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    104* today in SLC...although I rode early this morning in Park City, but yeah...H O T.

    Anyhow... Thank you. Yes, I recovered almost fully. Physically. The reconstructive surgeon that responded to the call from the ER turned out to be one of the best hand and face trauma doc's in the state. A whole lotta stitches later, and it's very hard to tell I was Walking Dead material a year ago.

    ...Mentally... Well, this one kinda changed things for me. At 45, I took stock of my ride priorities, and decided to take a step back to try some different stuff. I still spend a fair amount of quality time on dirt, but added trials and uni into my ride mix. The crash has been...oddly, a net positive experience for me. Sometimes you can lose sight of the forest for the trees, as they say. I prefer to think I see more forest now, at the expense of a few less trees.

    As for what I wear... After a full year (post-crash) of riding only a full face I tried going back to pedaling XC/AM in a half-lid helmet and... I just couldn't do it. My face apparently has a far better memory than most of my other broken body parts. So I continue to ride all non-DH (except trials and uni) in a Rockgardn Pearl full face. I find it well vented and very comfortable, even with temps in the low 90's. This morning I rode 11 miles @ 7000 to 9000ft in upper-70's to low-80 degree temps with 2000+ feet of climbing, and it never bothered me. For pure (i.e. lift-served) DH I ride an Arai VX Pro 3.

    As for Urge... No response. Which I can't say surprises me. However, as I alluded to earlier, I do think they might be well served to heed Giro's past with the old Switchblade , and think harder about the wisdom of offering a faux-full face helmet.

    Urge does have a pretty solid shell design, I feel. Although I had a concussion as a result of the impact, the Archi did adequately protect my gray matter...which, in the grand scheme, is a lot more important than having a pretty smile. As I pointed out earlier, I believe that the compromises made in the chin bar design make the Archi an "ambiguous" helmet, at least in context of it's ability to shield your face from serious harm in a lawn dart-type crash.

    As always, the responsibility of what happened was all mine. ...Bad luck, "user error", crappy rider, not enough coffee that morning, bad juju...whatever. I don't blame anyone or anything. Sh!t happens. I signed the MTB personal responsibility release form a long time ago. In blood.

    Cheers!
    Thanks for such elaborated answer.

    After converting of the Fahrenheit to Celsius - it's pretty like here. How's Rockgardn deals with a lots of sweating?

    Me myself thinking about getting some light vented full face. I thought about Met Parachute and maybe this Urge helmet. I don't ride DH, not even FR, just AM with some parts of rock gardens (we have pretty rocky terrain here in Israel). Don't know what to do. I thought about Specialized Dissident also, but it seems too hot for what I do. I'm clueless...

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    As for Urge... No response. Which I can't say surprises me. However, as I alluded to earlier, I do think they might be well served to heed Giro's past with the old Switchblade , and think harder about the wisdom of offering a faux-full face helmet.

    Urge does have a pretty solid shell design, I feel. Although I had a concussion as a result of the impact, the Archi did adequately protect my gray matter...which, in the grand scheme, is a lot more important than having a pretty smile. As I pointed out earlier, I believe that the compromises made in the chin bar design make the Archi an "ambiguous" helmet, at least in context of it's ability to shield your face from serious harm in a lawn dart-type crash.
    I think the issue here is the way the helmet is marketed. If you're an AM half-lid wearer looking for a helmet with a little extra then the Archi is still probably a great choice. I think we can agree that the Archi will provide more protection than an XC helmet.

    But it's not a full-on DH helmet. Urge's website offers slightly misleading information - they say the Archi 'offers the same protection as our DH helmet, the Down O matic'. We need to interpret this as 'it passes the same safety tests but it's lighter and offers much less coverage as compromises made for pedalling comfort'. They call it an enduro race helmet. It's pretty clear they're not pitching it as a light DH helmet so it's unfair to criticize it for not offering DH-level protection.

    I would never consider buying the Archi as my DH helmet. If anything it would be a third helmet that I'd bring out for suitable AM days where I know there's some epic descending. Last year I got a Kali Avatar carbon helmet that's actually lighter than the Archi and when I look at the coverage side by side it's pretty similar so I won't be switching anytime soon.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by asin View Post
    That Arai is a moto helmet? I thought there were compelling safety/engineering reasons for not wearing moto helmets for DH - basically that the higher speeds of a moto necessitate the use of harder foams and shell materials that might not be compliant/compressible enough to protect the user from crashes at bike speeds.

    Tech Tuesday: DH Helmet vs. Motocross Helmet: Which is Safer? - Pinkbike
    Great post. I wore my Suomy MX helmet once and found it unsuitable due to the lack of ventilation. It's also a bit heavier.

    But I don't have a Leatt collar, and so I won't kid myself-- I'm not as safe as the OP. I think the Arai VX is a much, much safer choice than the Urge Archi Enduro. But is it as good as a modern, high-end downhilll MTB helmet? I don't know about that, due to the foam issue highlighted by Pinkbike.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    Great post. I wore my Suomy MX helmet once and found it unsuitable due to the lack of ventilation. It's also a bit heavier.

    But I don't have a Leatt collar, and so I won't kid myself-- I'm not as safe as the OP. I think the Arai VX is a much, much safer choice than the Urge Archi Enduro. But is it as good as a modern, high-end downhilll MTB helmet? I don't know about that, due to the foam issue highlighted by Pinkbike.
    PB didn't really delve into specifics. They took a broad sampling of MX helmet designs and EPS foam densities and strafed the entire genre with the same data. From http://www.araiamericas.com/assets/b...s/arai2012.pdf

    THE SOFT ARAI EPS LINER:
    Because an Arai shell is so strong, our EPS liners can be very soft (the key reason for an Araiís legendary comfort). Most lesser helmets donít have an Araiís shell strength, so their EPS liners must be made harder to help the shell do its job. And those harder liners can be why the helmets can get so uncomfortable after just a short ride.

    More importantly, Araiís exclusive one-piece EPS liner is like no other, comprised of as many as five material densities (depending on model), all molded into a single piece. Arai pioneered this one-piece technology more than 20 years ago, and is still, to our knowledge, the only helmet offering this liner and its benefits
    Kali, for instance, makes a point to mention their low-density EPS foam prominently in their ad copy.

    So, Arai at least, uses a hard shell, soft foam philosophy for both comfort and safety, rendering PB's blanket statement about MX helmet EPS foam density incorrect, at least in this specific case.

    ...Of course, new data have shown that it's brain ROTATION that is a big factor in concussion, which EPS foam - regardless of density - does nothing to mitigate. Technologies like POC's MIPS are designed to reduce rotational G's of the brain under real-world impact scenarios, and thus (theoretically) reduce the incidence of concussion.

    Unfortunately, CPSC and ASTM are unlikely to update their helmet specs anytime soon unless an overwhelming body of evidence comes to light concerning the role of rotational forces on the brain. With the NFL doing concussion studies, however, there might be some hope of safer bike helmets down the line. Who knows....
    Last edited by SprungShoulders; 07-09-2013 at 11:07 PM.

  11. #36
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    Wow this thread is super interesting. So much fascinating information!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    PB didn't really delve into specifics. They took a broad sampling of MX helmet designs and EPS foam densities and strafed the entire genre with the same data. From http://www.araiamericas.com/assets/b...s/arai2012.pdf



    Kali, for instance, makes a point to mention their low-density EPS foam prominently in their ad copy.

    So, Arai at least, uses a hard shell, soft foam philosophy for both comfort and safety, rendering PB's blanket statement about MX helmet EPS foam density incorrect, at least in this specific case.
    There's also the matter of the shell being too hard. Energy absorption need not come only from the foam inside, but if the outer shell also deforms, that should be a lower amount of force on your brain than if the shell bounces off something.

    Hard shells make sense when you're dealing with motorsport speeds and the possibility of running into steel and concrete. Again, without doing any exhaustive scientific work, I would naturally suspect that a bicycling helmet *could* be better for bicycling than a motorcycling helmet. For argument's sake, if Arai were to launch a mountainbike helmet line, I would think their downhill model would not simply be a rebadged VX. I would expect some sort of design differences.

    Conjecture aside, the original helmet worn was inadequate for the task. The new helmet worn is a dramatic improvement. There's probably not any point in speculating what's the best, when a dramatic improvement is all that was needed. If the Arai VX fails to adequately protect you, it's probably due to misfortune or an accident that is a magnitude of order worse than the one before.

  13. #38
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    I rarely read anything in Bicycling Magazine, but this article from last month - Senseless - on helmet design and safety was fascinating.

    Highly recommended read, if you want to know a little more about the chunk of foam and plastic we entrust our gray matter to every ride.

    Cheers.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    There's also the matter of the shell being too hard. Energy absorption need not come only from the foam inside, but if the outer shell also deforms, that should be a lower amount of force on your brain than if the shell bounces off something.
    So, you're saying a in-mold layer of flexible plastic measuring less than 1mm in thickness has more than an absolutely negligible affect on the energy absorptive qualities of a helmet, when compared to the underlying 20-30mm thick layer of closed-cell EPS foam?!

    No. The thin outer shell of MTB lids serves to allow the helmet to initially slide over a surface, thus counteracting foamís natural tendency to catch on the ground. That's it's only function (well...it also helps to protect the base foam from the degenerative effects of prolonged exposure to UV rays). Read the article cited above, or look it up online.

    That super thin, flexible shell is the reason that EPS foams in bike helmets tend to be very stiff, and thus - although protecting the brain from catastrophic injury - is also one reason they are not that great at preventing concussion. To much energy - linear as well as rotational - is transferred to you noggin, and you therefore end up in an MRI machine, having a $2000 picture of your noodle taken to send to friends and family.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    So, you're saying a in-mold layer of flexible plastic measuring less than 1mm in thickness has more than an absolutely negligible affect on the energy absorptive qualities of a helmet, when compared to the underlying 20-30mm thick layer of closed-cell EPS foam?!
    As a matter of fact, no.

    I was *wondering* -- not stating from a position of knowledge -- if the Arai VX motocross helmet you are using has an overly firm shell for bicycling use.

    Also I did not have the benefit of reading the article you linked before posting. I will read it today, it looks interesting but very long.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprungShoulders View Post
    I rarely read anything in Bicycling Magazine, but this article from last month - Senseless - on helmet design and safety was fascinating.

    Highly recommended read, if you want to know a little more about the chunk of foam and plastic we entrust our gray matter to every ride.

    Cheers.
    Thanks for that. I'm actually in the market for a new helmet and was looking at a POC. Looks like I'll aim for the MIPS model.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
    I was *wondering* -- not stating from a position of knowledge -- if the Arai VX motocross helmet you are using has an overly firm shell for bicycling use.
    Apologies. ...And I would say it would IF the foam they used wasn't as soft as it is. As far as I can infer, hard shell + hard foam would equal very unhappy brain.

    Also I did not have the benefit of reading the article you linked before posting. I will read it today, it looks interesting but very long.
    It's longish, but it reads pretty easily. It's not particularly scientific, which it certainly could have been if it was published in a different venue.

    The article is an eye-opener, and really makes you wonder why as much R&D money as has been invested into helmet styling, ventilation, and fit hasn't also gone into improving performance for less than catastrophic impacts (which make up the majority of MTB crashes). I don't believe that only just now has medical science wondered if taking repeated whacks to the noggin is good for your brain or not.

    I blame the whole sport of cyclocross on riders with too many concussions from road and MTB. What other explanation could there be for hopping off a perfectly good bike, during a race no less, to WALK yourself and your ride over a log or hay bale.

    Cheers.

  18. #43
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    "Bones heal, glory is forever and chicks dig scars"

    -Bart Simpson

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    I've been using this urge archi-enduro full face helmet for riding all mountain/ aggressive trail. I had a nasty crash. It saved my teeth and face.

    This full face helmet is the most comfortable and better ventilation when climbing coming from bluegrass full face helmet, where it melt my head during long climbs.

    So I think that guys is very unfortunate to have facial trauma.

  20. #45
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    I just bought my wife a Cratoni Shakedown, which has a removable plastic chin guard. I distinctly remember some bell and arai MX helmets in the early 80s, when I was a wee man riding 50-60cc dirtbikes, which had a very similar chin guard that attached an open-faced helmet with plastic screws or snap buttons. Yes, really.

    Obviously that setup was nowhere near as robust as a molded full-face helmet, but it was better than nothing and it was much cooler.

    My wife does not go 40-50 mph during DH or enduro events. She rides mild XC trails, in fact. But she's worried about busting up her face, and this helmet addresses that. We need more light-duty full face helmets for XC and trail use. And we need DH racers to know that they are not adequate for that purpose.

  21. #46
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    I was searching helmets and came across this thread. After a messed up face from a crash I'm in the same boat. I don't think I'll be able to ride without a full face helmet.
    OP my question to you is do you think the Archi would be good for XC riding? I'll be getting a true downhill helmet for lift assisted riding.

    Crash Report on Urge Archi Enduro Helmet-20130803_215630.jpg
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by asin View Post
    I think the issue here is the way the helmet is marketed. If you're an AM half-lid wearer looking for a helmet with a little extra then the Archi is still probably a great choice. I think we can agree that the Archi will provide more protection than an XC helmet.

    But it's not a full-on DH helmet. Urge's website offers slightly misleading information - they say the Archi 'offers the same protection as our DH helmet, the Down O matic'. We need to interpret this as 'it passes the same safety tests but it's lighter and offers much less coverage as compromises made for pedalling comfort'. They call it an enduro race helmet. It's pretty clear they're not pitching it as a light DH helmet so it's unfair to criticize it for not offering DH-level protection.

    I would never consider buying the Archi as my DH helmet. If anything it would be a third helmet that I'd bring out for suitable AM days where I know there's some epic descending. Last year I got a Kali Avatar carbon helmet that's actually lighter than the Archi and when I look at the coverage side by side it's pretty similar so I won't be switching anytime soon.
    It's sad that a retailer gives better info then the manufacturer.
    From XSportsProtective:
    "NOTE: The Urge Archi-Enduro full-face helmet meets CPSC bike safety standards. As with most full face bicycle helmets, it has not been tested to the ASTM F1952 standard for downhill mountain bike helmets."
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg View Post
    "Bones heal, glory is forever and chicks dig scars"

    -Bart Simpson
    I hate to nitpick, but the quote is actually from Captain Lance Murdoch to Bart.

    "Bones heal. Chicks dig scars. And the United States of America has the best doctor to daredevil ratio in the world!"

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I was searching helmets and came across this thread. After a messed up face from a crash I'm in the same boat. I don't think I'll be able to ride without a full face helmet.
    OP my question to you is do you think the Archi would be good for XC riding? I'll be getting a true downhill helmet for lift assisted riding.
    Oh man... So sorry to see/hear that you had a similar face-planting experience. Heal up. The flesh knits relatively quickly; it's the bits inside your skull that take longer to get sorted. At least that's the way it was for me.

    Anyhow, here's my take on things. The Archi is indeed a bit cooler than a "real" full face, but no where near as comfy and cool as a standard MTB half-shell helmet. Sure, it would be fine for "XC", but if you're not really going to count on it's facial or impact protection qualities - or lack thereof (since it's CSPC-rated only, not ASTM F1952) - anyhow, then you might as well wear a half-shell lid with that same CSPC rating.

    ...The Archi looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but it's not a duck.

    I tried riding MTB in a half shell helmet this spring, and my brain just wouldn't accept it. So, I ride a RockGard Pearl for everything MTB except lift-served DH, where I wear the Arai. Honestly, the Pearl is only slightly warmer in the face port area than the Archi was; it's actually MORE ventilated in the shell. I'm in Utah, and regularly ride in 90+ degree temps; the Pearl has been fine.

    Crash Report on Urge Archi Enduro Helmet-20130804_130039.jpg

    I do ride pure (bike) trials and street uni in a multi-impact half shell lid. The nature of those activities doesn't trigger the same self-preservation circuitry as does being on a MTB. As soon as I start moving with enough velocity, and/or the wheels start coming off the ground, I'm back in the Pearl.

    When all is said and done, you're brain will most likely end up telling your body what kind of helmet it feels comfortable riding in, and under what conditions. Listen to that little voice.

    Cheers!

  25. #50
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    Thanks for the input. After posting I continued my research and I found this MIPS | Take a look in the latest issue of Popular Science
    You may want to take a look. At this point I think I'll be looking for a MIPS equipped helmet despite the cost. Only have one brain.
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