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  1. #1
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    $500 reward for info in Guacamole Trail Damage and Illegal Paint/Reroutes

    Ok.....Seems some moron(s) have been engaging in illegal painting, rerouting and destruction of existing trail on the Guacamole Trail in Virgin. These people are idiots who have created dangerous conditions and they are threatening the trails system. If you didn't build it don't change it!!!!!!

    We had a major incident Saturday March 24. Utah Mountain Biking Adventures and Monte and Bonnie are posting a $500 CASH REWARD FORM INFORMATION LEADING TO THE APREHENSION OF THE INDIVIDUAL(S) RESPONSABLE.

    Send information to MONTELUTZ@ROCKETMAIL.COM

    We are serious and would LOVE to see this $500 paid out.
    Monte
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  2. #2
    Cleavage Of The Tetons
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    I think you need to share some more details, Monte.
    What happened?
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  3. #3
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    Illegal painting, reroutes (around AWESOME features that the trail builder(s) worked hard to include.).clearing of trees for the ***** B-lines, etc..etc...

    Juts stupid sh#t that there is no excuse for.
    Monte
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  4. #4
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    That sucks, sorry to hear about it Monte. The shitty thing is once ride a around exists its really hard to get rid of it. Hopefully they can be closed off before they get burned in.

    Do you think it is someone local? Seems like a waste of a vacation day to spend doing something like that.

    Thanks for looking out for the trails!

  5. #5
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    I dont know if it has gotten worse since I was out there a few weeks ago, but I agree. We tried to scrub out some of the more hideous paint lines. There are hundreds of miles of cross country and paved trails out there in Southern Utah. If you dont want to ride slickrock - dont go to a slickrock trail.

    If you want to ride out there but cant ride the line, walk it until you can. No need to destroy the precious few trees that are left out there to make stupid pansy lines.

  6. #6
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    does this have anything to do with the new singletrack section on the south end? that trail was super fun by the way

  7. #7
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    As far as I know, it is mostly reroutes through the vegetation and undisturbed soil to avoid some moderately technical slickrock. I was out there tonight and found a huge 4 foot swath that had been laid completely bare of vegetation to avoid a sweet but harmless ledge section. Some serious effort had been taken to do that. I tried to cover it up with dead branches, but we will see how long that lasts. On the other hand, it looks like someone has done some basket work out there? Kudos for that.

    It is hard enough for non-locals to navigate and find all the goodies out there without nitwits putting in stupid lines that intentionally avoid all the good stuff. Its not like they are creating ride-arounds to miss 5 foot drops and rampage style descents. Its minor stuff like a 5 inch high ledge section or a 12 inch step up.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by STT GUY View Post
    Illegal painting, reroutes (around AWESOME features that the trail builder(s) worked hard to include.).clearing of trees for the ***** B-lines, etc..etc...

    Juts stupid sh#t that there is no excuse for.
    Sounds like it's just your paradigm about what "trail destruction" is. The things you are pissed off about are probably valid, but it doesn't keep you from riding the lines you want to ride. You're way off base if you think the trail belongs to whoever built it.

    I'm guessing this 500 dollar reward is so you can punish the person who caused this "major incident" which I'm having a difficult time imaging how it could have been a result of spray paint and a 4 foot swath.

    Isn't most of this trail illegal anyway?

  9. #9
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    It's not illegal trail; it's unsanctioned trail. There is a difference. The land managers haven't done anything to stop it because up until now people have been good about keeping lines mainly on slickrock, not destroying vegetation and habitat and not graffiti-ing the place up with hideous paint lines. If people start taking it upon to change that, the status could very well change from unsanctioned to illegal.

    And that would suck.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeathstar View Post
    Sounds like it's just your paradigm about what "trail destruction" is. The things you are pissed off about are probably valid, but it doesn't keep you from riding the lines you want to ride. You're way off base if you think the trail belongs to whoever built it.

    I'm guessing this 500 dollar reward is so you can punish the person who caused this "major incident" which I'm having a difficult time imaging how it could have been a result of spray paint and a 4 foot swath.

    Isn't most of this trail illegal anyway?
    PB dropped an absurdly relevant article today:

    Opinion: Who Owns a Trail? - Pinkbike

  11. #11
    DOH!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironxcross View Post
    PB dropped an absurdly relevant article today:

    Opinion: Who Owns a Trail? - Pinkbike
    Thanks for that link. Relevant indeed:

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkBike
    The trail builder and other trail users probably cannot claim ownership of the trail, and they probably have no legal authority.

    But that information, while true, is also useless and non-prescriptive. Saying "it's not your land, so it's not your trail" is the moral equivalent of playing "I'm not touching you" with your older brother on family road trips. What this person is literally suggesting is that because a trail builder doesn't legally own the trail, somehow that gives everyone the moral justification to do whatever they want on the trail, with impunity. And again, legally that may be true, but the thing you missed in your massive oversimplification is that:

    You probably still want someone to be the trail boss. Or you should. Having a grumpy trail boss sucks, but the only thing worse is having no trail boss at all. Without a trail boss, one of two things will happen: either there will be no maintenance and future building, or all maintenance and building will be patchwork, random, and inconsistent.

    We’ve all ridden trails that were built by committee, and they’re horrible.

  12. #12
    Swimming thru the Smog
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    TBH a ride around isnt really trail destruction. Every trail has them and no one bashes you for taking the ride around on the booters or big drops. Seems like 500$ reward could be better spent on trail repair or maintenance.

    I also have a hard time understanding how an 'unsanctioned' trail through private property with out explicit permission is not trespassing and therefore illegal.

  13. #13
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    Ride around for jumps/drops/high consequence things like spines are definitely ok, but going around sections just because they are technically challenging is another story and up for debate. In my opinion, if it isn't a gap or drop and doesn't have big consequences you should either try to ride it or walk it. Ride arounds increase the environmental impact, and can ruin the flow and aesthetic of a trail in my opinion. Like I said it's definitely a debatable subject not saying my way is right, but if I put my time into building up a sweet trail that I deliberately made somewhat technically challenging I would not want people degrading it with ride arounds.

    Not to mention this is southern Utah we're talking about, a land of plentiful single track. You can go to a shop, buy a map, and find miles and miles of single track appropriate for your skill level. That PB article really sums it up for me, bottom line is if you didn't build it you don't get to make any decisions about the trail. You can build your own trail to your exact liking instead.

  14. #14
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    Environmental impact perhaps, but the trail itself is environmental impact, for example, Rhythm and Blues is built in the crypto.

    It's something completely else to be butt hurt because you don't get to choose the line someone else takes.

  15. #15
    Bill M
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    Quote Originally Posted by STT GUY View Post
    Illegal painting, reroutes (around AWESOME features that the trail builder(s) worked hard to include.).clearing of trees for the ***** B-lines, etc..etc...

    Juts stupid sh#t that there is no excuse for.
    Hey STT. I will be back Tuesday. Should I bring my assault weapons and high capacity mags from AK? Maybe the Air Light might be enough to discourage the vandals. Glad to help clean it up best we can and spend more time riding around keeping a look out. Let the vandals try to guess which days its not protected by SW. That's just wrong to trash a great trail and do crap that could get it closed to everyone.

  16. #16
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    I don't know where on Guac that these events occur. I've ridden Guac since the very early days when it took a lot of stopping and looking around to figure out where the trail was. I wasn't given the secret handshake, so I don't know it's "official" name, but I feel the outer loop is rather schizo in nature. In the middle of that loop, you have at least 1 mile of the smoothest, best groomed and most beginner friendly singletrack. However to get to it, you must ride the most technical parts of any of the trail that I've ridden. It also twists and meanders like a drunken sailor.

    It's easy to say that you have to respect the trail builders intentions. I mostly agree with this. However, I have seen way too many instances of trails evolving into a different line, simply because the majority of the riders don't like the flow or the line of the trail. You can get all butt hurt about this, but it is the evolution of the trail.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    I don't know where on Guac that these events occur. I've ridden Guac since the very early days when it took a lot of stopping and looking around to figure out where the trail was. I wasn't given the secret handshake, so I don't know it's "official" name, but I feel the outer loop is rather schizo in nature. In the middle of that loop, you have at least 1 mile of the smoothest, best groomed and most beginner friendly singletrack. However to get to it, you must ride the most technical parts of any of the trail that I've ridden. It also twists and meanders like a drunken sailor.

    It's easy to say that you have to respect the trail builders intentions. I mostly agree with this. However, I have seen way too many instances of trails evolving into a different line, simply because the majority of the riders don't like the flow or the line of the trail. You can get all butt hurt about this, but it is the evolution of the trail.
    We can clearly see what years of unchecked evolution has done to areas like Bear Claw Poppy, you don't really mean that do you? If you're not happy with the layout of the trail it's quite simple to just not ride it.

  18. #18
    No Stranger to danger....
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    Anybody who takes $500 to dob in their mates or a few individuals that have made a few trail modifications is a pretty weak and grubby person imo, they wouldnt be treated well where im from.

    They should spend the money on something useful or give it to charity instead of trying to be urban heros, theres enough of them around already.

    Flame away..
    Last edited by Tone's; 03-29-2013 at 08:54 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhzion View Post
    We can clearly see what years of unchecked evolution has done to areas like Bear Claw Poppy, you don't really mean that do you?
    In my opinion Bear Claw Poppy is a bad trail example, simply because of how it gets ridden and the terrain that it's on. The trail is adjacent to residential (lots of bored kids riding there) and it's very easy to ride off the trail. Look at the evolution that's occurred on Goose, Little Creek, and JEM. Most of it has been minor, but over time it's happened. The same could be said with all of the Green Valley trails. There are none of them that have stayed the same.

    The Santa Clara Reserve trails have probably seen very little of this because none of them were rake and ride trails. This is speculation on my part because it's been years since I've ridden them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhzion View Post
    If you're not happy with the layout of the trail it's quite simple to just not ride it.
    That statement is like saying if you don't like how something is being handled, don't get involved. I'm not alone if my opinion of the schizo nature of the outer loop.

  20. #20
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    Get the money up front. Carefully read the part about apprehension. Even if you had a go pro video of them doing it its still unlikely there would be an arrest.

    Hopefully the person thought they were doing a good thing and is just misguided. Perhaps instead of being thrown in jail if identified they could be invited to participated in the DMTA, and put their interest in trail building to a positive use.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill M View Post
    Hey STT. I will be back Tuesday. Should I bring my assault weapons and high capacity mags from AK? Maybe the Air Light might be enough to discourage the vandals. Glad to help clean it up best we can and spend more time riding around keeping a look out. Let the vandals try to guess which days its not protected by SW. That's just wrong to trash a great trail and do crap that could get it closed to everyone.
    This situation just turned really stupid.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill M View Post
    Hey STT. I will be back Tuesday. Should I bring my assault weapons and high capacity mags from AK? Maybe the Air Light might be enough to discourage the vandals. Glad to help clean it up best we can and spend more time riding around keeping a look out. Let the vandals try to guess which days its not protected by SW. That's just wrong to trash a great trail and do crap that could get it closed to everyone.
    LOL, well ive heard it all now, lets shoot the 12 year old kids, that will prove the point, how bout set a little duck shooting hut up next to the trail to shoot anybody that bi-passes the tech bits of the trail, im sure the trail police from Utah mountain bike adventures will give you $500 a head or $500 for any information that leads to an impossible conviction of the kids, but regardless it will be great advertising for them which is all it was ever going to be anyway.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    In my opinion Bear Claw Poppy is a bad trail example, simply because of how it gets ridden and the terrain that it's on. The trail is adjacent to residential (lots of bored kids riding there) and it's very easy to ride off the trail. Look at the evolution that's occurred on Goose, Little Creek, and JEM. Most of it has been minor, but over time it's happened. The same could be said with all of the Green Valley trails. There are none of them that have stayed the same.

    The Santa Clara Reserve trails have probably seen very little of this because none of them were rake and ride trails. This is speculation on my part because it's been years since I've ridden them.

    That statement is like saying if you don't like how something is being handled, don't get involved. I'm not alone if my opinion of the schizo nature of the outer loop.
    The fact that the areas you've mentioned have only minor changes (of which JEM hardly fits) is a result of time and energy invested in keeping change in check, not because no one has tried. Green Valley's location only relates to how fast it happened. It's a perfect example of a go to, easy to access area whose change was left unchecked for far too long.

    I don't understand what you mean by rake and ride and what it has to do with whether or not they see change.

    Opinions of the loop are irrelevant here really. It will either get ridden or it won't. Battling over line choice only creates greater impact and means everyone rides less, what good is that?
    Last edited by dhzion; 03-29-2013 at 12:44 PM.

  24. #24
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    I understand about folks wanting to see what the big guys and gals can clear, aka difficult trails, but the bottom line is that if you can't ride it, stay off of it for your own safety and the integrity of the trail. I don't modify sand traps because I can't hit out of 'em
    I like bikes.

  25. #25
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    This thread is getting silly, but I keep coming back. This is not about ego and insisting everyone take the big hits. I am a pretty mediocre rider and I have done these **crazy, death-defying** lines on my hardtail, cross country, 29er.

    This is about being responsible trail users and making sure the land managers continue to allow access to mountain bikers. For those of you unfamiliar there was a great trail called Rockville Bench very near to this trail that got closed down a while back. It happens and we have to be careful to protect the access that we do have.

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